What level adjustment?

[Retech]

Lesser Half Dragon

Often the result of dragon blood in the lineage, especially due to a long lost half-dragon ancestor, it is clear that lesser half-dragons have draconic blood in their veins, but they lack the more powerful traits of a dragon. This draconic connection may lay dormant in the family for generations, leading to an outcropping of draconic sorcery or in this case, physical changes.

Type: Creature type changes to Dragon
Armor class: Natural armor improves by 2

*Removed immunity to breath weapon type and fly speed*

Melee: Half dragon receives two claw attacks and a bite attack

*Removed Breath Weapon*

Ability Increase: +4 Str, +3 Con, +1 Int, +1 Char

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What LA should this warrant?

[tyckspoon]

I'd eyeball it for a +2, although depending on your opinion of how much a level is worth it could also be a strong +1. Probably also remove the Int and Cha adjustments, but that's only because the game is mostly not designed to work with odd adjustments to stats.

[dgnslyr]

Ooh, odd stat boosts are icky. Get rid of those.

+4 Str, +2 Con, +2 NA, and the two claws and a bite seems like the higher end of +1 LA, though, but definitely not something overpowering..

[Divide by Zero]

I'd say a strong +1, probably. Also, I seem to remember a rule somewhere that templates can only modify stats by even values, though that may have just been my imagination.

[Siosilvar]

Honestly? Barely +1. Stats aren't that great.

Throw a scaling breath weapon on there (maybe 1/encounter, as well) and resistance 5 to the same energy type, and then it'll be worth a +1 (if you bump the stat boosts to +4/+4/+2/+2).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Honestly? Barely +1. Stats aren't that great.

Throw a scaling breath weapon on there (maybe 1/encounter, as well) and resistance 5 to the same energy type, and then it'll be worth a +1 (if you bump the stat boosts to +4/+4/+2/+2).

That would be +2, either you're an optimizer or your holding it up to the most broken LA +1 race in existence.

[Siosilvar]

That would be +2, either you're an optimizer or your holding it up to the most broken LA +1 race in existence.

I generally compare LA+1 to the first level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, Sorcerer (including wand use), or a ToB class. If you're going to give up a full level of your character, it'd better be worth it.

Half-dragon as it stands is probably worth around +2, what with immunity to an energy and all. Still +2 if you get the flight from it, given Large sized is worth around +1 by itself, and +3 overall puts you close to the level where you'd normally get flight anyway.

Tiefling is a bit less than what +1 ought to be worth if it were a template. A 2nd level spell 1/day and about one 2nd level spell permanently (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) isn't worth losing a whole level for.

...

Come to think of it, make those stat boosts +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha. +12 overall is a bit much.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

There's already a Draconic template in Races of the Dragon. +2 STR/CON/CHA, 2 claws, +1 natural armor, assorted "dragony" things, LA +1.

With the type change, extra natural attack, and the +4, you're looking at +2.

[Prime32]

There's already a Draconic template in Races of the Dragon. +2 STR/CON/CHA, 2 claws, +1 natural armor, assorted "dragony" things, LA +1.

With the type change, extra natural attack, and the +4, you're looking at +2.
Oh? Compare feral and mineral warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e). Would you say this is equivalent in power to a Saint?

[hewhosaysfish]

Oh? Compare feral and mineral warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e). Would you say this is equivalent in power to a Saint?

Feral and mineral warrior? Are those two really the best yardstick for considering what's fair, balanced and reasonable?

[Tyndmyr]

I generally compare LA+1 to the first level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, Sorcerer (including wand use), or a ToB class. If you're going to give up a full level of your character, it'd better be worth it.

Spirit Lion Totem is going to get used anyway on any realistic melee build. It's not replacing that level, it's replacing another, less important level.

A single level in a ToB class isn't that big a deal, really. Losing initiator levels is generally less of a problem than losing caster levels.

I would place the above modifiers as a LA +2. Not an especially fantastic one...I'd reccomend rolling the odd stats into even boosts, though. +1's are not fantastic. I'd rather have +2 cha than +1 int/+1 cha.

They do exist on official classes though, such as the various catpeople and other furry classes. These classes are generally not popular, or considered worth the LA. So, legal, but generally a bad idea.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Oh? Compare feral and mineral warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e). Would you say this is equivalent in power to a Saint?

No, but it's clearly more powerful than a +1.

[Gorgondantess]

Feral and mineral warrior? Are those two really the best yardstick for considering what's fair, balanced and reasonable?

YES. Those are only some of the few level adjustment races/templates worth their salt. Things like Half Dragon and Tiefling are gimped, pure and simple. Yes, they're pretty much average for level adjusted races, but really, give me one good reason for level adjusted races horribly sucking.

[Taelas]

LA buy-off and the self-correcting scaling of XP rewards.

[Heliomance]

I'd say a strong +1, probably. Also, I seem to remember a rule somewhere that templates can only modify stats by even values, though that may have just been my imagination.

Warbeast (MM2) gives +3 str and con.

[ThunderCat]

Since it's stronger than the +1 LA draconic template, it ought to be a +2, but I'd personally suggest keeping it at only +1. Or alternatively keeping it at +2 but ramping it up a bit, say, +4 STR, +4 CON +2 INT, +2 CHA, keep the natural attacks and natural armour, add darkvision and bonusses agianst sleep and paralysis, and possibly a couple of skill bonusses depending on the type of the ancestor dragon.

[ericgrau]

Agreed that it's +2 in core or a moderate power group, +1 in a high power group.

[Greenish]

add darkvision and bonusses agianst sleep and paralysisIt already has 60' darkvision and immunity to sleep and paralysis due to the type change.

[Tyndmyr]

LA buy-off and the self-correcting scaling of XP rewards.

That's a pretty good reason.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I'm not the only one who can reverse engineer these things (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a)

or am