Why are Search (INT) and Spot (WIS) different skills?

[Endarire]

Listen covers hearing things. Spot seems to cover everything else. (Many creatures use scent to spot things.)

Search just seems like an odd subset of Spot with a different stat.

Why?

[Half-orc Bard]

You need to KNOW(int) where to search while spot is understanding what you saw(wis)

[Divide by Zero]

There's more to Search than just looking. You're trying to find traps, hidden doors, etc. that are pretty much invisible to the naked eye.

[GoatBoy]

In Pathfinder, they aren't. Search, Listen, and Spot are all folded into the Perception(Wis) skill.

[AslanCross]

I'm of the opinion that all the sensory skills should be together, but think it was a metagame attempt at giving the Ranger something to be better at than the Rogue.

Also, many animals have keen eyesight and hearing, but that doesn't mean they have the abstract reasoning skills to detect traps and hidden stashes of treasure.

[ffone]

Spot is awareness. Search is comprehension of what you're studying.

Worth noting that Spot is almost always passive/reactive (one can try to re-Spot as move actions though) whereas search is almost always active (except for elves going by secret doors).

Also, Spot tends to be vs other creatures, whereas Search is usually vs environemnt/object details (secret doors, traps, rifling through junk in a chest to find the McClue).

[Hirax]

I don't have anything to add to the distinctions people have already made, but I'll just put my name down as someone who actually doesn't like the simplified skill approach that 4e and PF took, I prefer move silently and hide being separate, listen, search, and spot being different, etc. I don't think the separations are always perfect, but in general I like it. The problem with 3.5's skill system, imo, is instead how skill points are doled out.

[AslanCross]

The problem with 3.5's skill system, imo, is instead how skill points are doled out.

Just curious, would you mind elaborating on that? I'd like to know what you think the problems are and how you fix/propose to fix them.

[Hirax]

Just curious, would you mind elaborating on that? I'd like to know what you think the problems are and how you fix/propose to fix them.

Disclaimer: all numbers are thumbsketch examples only. I roll this around in my head all the time, but I've never come up with a detailed plan.

For starters, the template of pre selected class skills is generally not something I'm satisfied with. While there's an extent to which this would just allow more min maxing, I play 3.5 because I like very customizable characters. There are far too few ACFs that trade/add/swap class skills. I think what skills are class skills are something you should be able to customize for your character to some extent. IE, fighter picks 8 class skills, rogue picks 15 class skills. Maybe add a few exclusions, IE, non-magic users can't pick spellcraft as a class skill, and a limit on which knowledge skills you can pick.

Then you simply need to give people more skill points. No class should have 2+int imo, because it hamstrings you anytime you see something with pre reqs. A higher baseline (perhaps 4 or 5) needs to be picked, I'd even support bumping rogues up to 10.

I also think it would be a good idea to halve the cost of the first 5 ranks in each skill. So for the first 5 ranks, 1 rank would cost half a point for class skills, and 1 rank would cost a full point for cross-class skills. That way a character with 10 int and the baseline of 4 or 5 skill ranks per level can get a little diversification thanks to the discount toward early ranks, and then stick to 4 or 5 maxed skills if desired. This would also have the effect of making pre reqs for feats and prcs much less murderous.

[Seharvepernfan]

I've had friends ask me this before, and I make it simple:

Search is looking for something you expect to find, and is used up close, as in square to square. Spot is used to notice anything that sticks out, at any distance (even a person wearing camophlage sticks out, just not as much as if they werent wearing camophlage).

Search is a concious effort to find something that you are looking for, and typically you know what you are looking for (a trap, a door, a certain specific thing).

Spot is less concious, and you are noticing anything unordinary or out of place (and I suppose secret doors dont "look" out of place). You can use spot as an action to conciously look for something, but it doesnt specify that you know what you're looking for, and it doesnt really matter if you do (unless your DM gives you a bonus for it, as per example from the DMG).

They should reallly have synergy.

[AslanCross]

Disclaimer: all numbers are thumbsketch examples only. I roll this around in my head all the time, but I've never come up with a detailed plan.

For starters, the template of pre selected class skills is generally not something I'm satisfied with. While there's an extent to which this would just allow more min maxing, I play 3.5 because I like very customizable characters. There are far too few ACFs that trade/add/swap class skills. I think what skills are class skills are something you should be able to customize for your character to some extent. IE, fighter picks 8 class skills, rogue picks 15 class skills. Maybe add a few exclusions, IE, non-magic users can't pick spellcraft as a class skill, and a limit on which knowledge skills you can pick.

Then you simply need to give people more skill points. No class should have 2+int imo, because it hamstrings you anytime you see something with pre reqs. A higher baseline (perhaps 4 or 5) needs to be picked, I'd even support bumping rogues up to 10.

I also think it would be a good idea to halve the cost of the first 5 ranks in each skill. So for the first 5 ranks, 1 rank would cost half a point for class skills, and 1 rank would cost a full point for cross-class skills. That way a character with 10 int and the baseline of 4 or 5 skill ranks per level can get a little diversification thanks to the discount toward early ranks, and then stick to 4 or 5 maxed skills if desired. This would also have the effect of making pre reqs for feats and prcs much less murderous.

Thanks, the customization of class skills is an interesting idea, and so is the increase of skill points.

[Diarmuid]

I think complete customization might be going too far, but giving them a standard set and then letting them pick a set number (possibly determined or augmented by Int) from another list would seem OK to me.