[3.5] Anti-Magic Universe

[Particle_Man]

So assume that the entire universe (multi-verse? all planes, anyhow) is all an anti-magic zone, but otherwise it is 3.5 D&D. What follows? What would a DM need to do to adjust? What would players need to do to adjust? Could the game still be fun? Could it still have its "D&Dness"? I assume that some classes would be fairly useless, for example. Healing would be a much slower affair. Some monsters would also be weaker, however.

[Divide by Zero]

Depends on how far the transparency goes. Does this include all non-Ex effects, or will there still be psions, binders, etc.? If you're going for a totally mundane world, then D&D really isn't the best system to use for that.

[Serpentine]

It'd make for an interesting quest, though, to restore the magic to the universe...

[Doc Roc]

What's the CL on that AMF?

[TroubleBrewing]

What's the CL on that AMF?

Doc, you're an effing monster. But I think I love you. :smallbiggrin:

[Jude_H]

Healing would probably need a fix.
3e's natural healing blows and its chargen takes too long to just butcher PCs

[Alleran]

What would players need to do to adjust?
Take three levels of Cleric and the Initiate of Mystra feat.

[Morph Bark]

What's the CL on that AMF?

My thoughts exactly, though I presume it has to be high for the caster being able to put it all over the entire universe. Or to make the AMF so large, the caster had to reduce his caster level to allow it to spread out - give up power in one part of the spell to put it in another.

Wait, does this include the other planes? You didn't say multiverse...

[Totally Guy]

I have considered such a setting except that magic was turned on in special locations called dungeons. Generally the locations of the dungeons are highly sought after and tend to have cities spring up above them.

But then I got stuck with the whole "what does that do the game?" question.

[Combat Reflexes]

No magic zone? You're destroying a whole race of cool monsters - the incorporeals!

Also, Beholders would just be big floating bowling balls that bite. CR -10.

EDIT: o. No antimagic field, never mind :smallredface:

[Wings of Peace]

In addition to CL what's the AMFs point of origin?

[Particle_Man]

So assume that the entire universe (multi-verse? all planes, anyhow) is all an anti-magic zone


Wait, does this include the other planes? You didn't say multiverse...

Yes, I did. :smallsmile:

CL would be highest possible, using all the powers of optimization everywhere, epic allowed. Not sure if point of origin would be relevant since the AoE/range is "everywhere".

[Diarmuid]

He's not saying that there is an actual spell called Anti-Magic Field in effect everywhere, he is saying that magic does not exist.

Stop being snarky.

You could look at the d20 Conan rules for some of the ways around a lack of magic, but really that world is going to be pretty similar to our world. Swords and Bows and whoever leads the most people who can use them and can control the production of food/etc will be in charge.

People who dont like that person will try to do the same and challenge them for power. Eventually swords and bows will give way to guns, and tanks, and the planes and boats, etc. I think you lose a lot of the "fantasy" in a setting like that.

[Morph Bark]

He's not saying that there is an actual spell called Anti-Magic Field in effect everywhere, he is saying that magic does not exist.

Stop being snarky.

No he's not.

Stop being ironic.

[Kantolin]

When you get to any kind of levels, the first thing that'd probably happen is that AC would becoming meaningless. When your AC is capped at say ~20, and your base attack bonus is also capped at ~20, power attack becomes a popular option. It also hurts anyone who focuses in heavy armour - after awhile, I'd just wear a chain shirt for the amusement and avoid the hit to my movement speed.

Summarily, I can't imagine anyone having a shield to an even more noticable extent than normal, unless you're two-handing a shield and you have very little incentive to do that in anti-magic-universe.

Are regeneration type effects ex or su? If ex, those creatures would become very difficult to get rid of if they also could gain a level anywhere - taking down a troll, 1d3 torch at a time, while it's eating you sounds unpleasant.

On the PC side, I presume tome of battle classes would rock the house - they'd be the only ones anywhere able to do a small array of unique effects.

Although interestingly, at low levels, going druid and getting yourself a free (ex) bear or wolf or sommat would be very helpful, so perhaps druids would still have a say.

This excludes the small array of methods of casting in antimagic fields, which presumably would get more popular or be extremely heavily restricted (Or possibly both).

[Eldariel]

The campaign journal in my signature may give you some idea. At least if your players are bastards.

[cfalcon]

As above, if you are running 3.5 in an AMF.

How permissive a world do you plan to have? For instance, the 9swords guys can do all sorts of spells in AMF. I would definitely recommend your martial guys look into 9swords if available. If not available, then you open up the rest of D&D for consideration. Generally, you will find that sneak attack, poison (and therefore fort saves) and high base attack bonuses are all desirable. AC is a hard chase mundanely.


My friends and I have done a few quick playtests involving the beatyface characters. Normally we find the Fighter and Barbarian shine in situations like you describe (but again, no 9swords was in for consideration).



If you actually want to run this game, I would suggest looking at settings such as the previously mentioned Conan, and the truly excellent Iron Heroes, originally by Monte Cook's Malhavoc Publishing, but since given to a group that supports it pretty well. Basically, the book is full of fighters, one of them is more fightery, but it's just awesome. It has optional rules for magic, but you don't need to mess with that, and it has a pool of hit points characters can use between encounters, sort of like the idea that 4ed ripped off but not as game mechanicy as the healing surge.

[cfalcon]

Oh, and please clarify whether this is AMF as the spell, universe wide, or an actual intention to block effects that are Sp and Su, or something else. For instance, will the few ways of getting around casting in an AMF be allowed? if it's as the spell, where is the origin, and what is the caster level? Etc.

I assumed you meant that it was an intention to block out Sp, Su, and all spells, regardless of workarounds (aka, they would be banned).

[Particle_Man]

I hadn't thought it through yet, but lets assume it is not as the spell, but an actual universe without magic so no spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities.

[FMArthur]

Medieval stasis falters and crumbles, leaving us with modern technology and relative national stability in lots of places. Actually... most fantasy settings like to embellish the age of civilization massively for some reason (ancient magic wars and whatnot), so given an equivalent amount of time from the dawn of the iron age, we might be dealing with a setting in the distant future, where robots take care of our every need and an overwhelming amount of "evil AI" fiction leads robots to think we don't like them, then abandon us to go explore space and causing the world to crumble into medieval stasis.

[true_shinken]

That antimagic field will last until your Warblade hits level 5.

Warblades: saving the multiverse with a roar of effort since 2006

[Koury]

For instance, the 9swords guys can do all sorts of spells in AMF.

For the record, I find this statement frusterating. Two of the three classes can do something magical, and one of those classes doesn't gain that ability until, I believe, level 17 (should you choose to take it).

Please try and avoid misleading comments like these, they really don't help anything.

[Divide by Zero]

For the record, I find this statement frusterating. Two of the three classes can do something magical, and one of those classes doesn't gain that ability until, I believe, level 17 (should you choose to take it).

Please try and avoid misleading comments like these, they really don't help anything.

Also, nearly all of those maneuvers are explicitly supernatural and therefore wouldn't work anyway.

[Greenish]

For the record, I find this statement frusterating.Eh, don't get frustrated.

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/9/c/9c60a_ORIG-Haters_Gonna_Hate.jpg

[Draz74]

That antimagic field will last until your Warblade hits level 5.

Only if the antimagic field has a duration expressed in rounds. (People can argue all they want about the semantics of this clause, but if the AMF is truly permanent, then IHS certainly doesn't apply!)

[Koury]

Eh, don't get frustrated.

+50 XP for making me laugh. :smallbiggrin:

[Tyndmyr]

Depends on how far the transparency goes. Does this include all non-Ex effects, or will there still be psions, binders, etc.? If you're going for a totally mundane world, then D&D really isn't the best system to use for that.

This.

My first thought was "Can I take initiate of mystra?". My next thought was figuring out how to get three levels of cleric without spell access. Seems doable.

But if what you really want is no magic at all, then D&D 3.5 is not the system you want. It's terrible at that.

[thompur]

Alchemy may become more prevelant.
Without magical healing, the Healing skill would be more important, and possibly need to be advanced. Also herbal medicine.
How advanced do you want your tech? Do you have gunpowder, Steam power?
Without magic, there are no gods. No interplanar travel.
Are there any real cosequences, aside from laws, for evil actions?

As for manufactured goods, Masterwork would be even more valuable. There is something in some D20 game somewhere about different grades of 'masterwork', but I don't know where.

[Tyndmyr]

D20 modern, in which it's referred to as mastercraft.

If available, it will make armor even more irrelevant.

Alchemy is generally magical in D&D.

[Boci]

A dead magic world isn't a good setting for the D&D 3.5 rules, but if its a short game and you really want to try it and no other systems are available it would be possible, although it may prove frustrating. Homebrew could cover some of the patches, but not all. If its a longer game you should look into other systems.
A brief mission in a dead magic zone if possible, but it works best if all the characters are equally reliant on magic, so non-gestalt groups will probably find it more frustrating than I did.

[thompur]

D20 modern, in which it's referred to as mastercraft.

If available, it will make armor even more irrelevant.

Alchemy is generally magical in D&D.

It doesn't have to be, though.
Also, sorry for the font above. I tried to change it through editing, but it won't let me.:smallannoyed: Ah, well...live and learn.:smallsmile:

[Tyndmyr]

But if we're taking the assumption that we're making magical stuff non-magical now....the only possible answer is "Whatever you want it to be".

Because it's just purely houseruled stuff at this point, and it bears little resemblance to D&D.

[Jack_Simth]

So assume that the entire universe (multi-verse? all planes, anyhow) is all an anti-magic zone, but otherwise it is 3.5 D&D. What follows? What would a DM need to do to adjust? What would players need to do to adjust? Could the game still be fun? Could it still have its "D&Dness"? I assume that some classes would be fairly useless, for example. Healing would be a much slower affair. Some monsters would also be weaker, however.
If you ignore ways around the AMF, D&D pretty much breaks.

"Thug" monsters that are mostly unaffected by AMF's are now pretty much the combat kings of their CR (well... except for the rare non-undead incorporeal critter with a non-magical touch attack; they're almost unstoppable - do note that there aren't any in Core, however). Tome of Battle classes take the top tiers of flexibility. Races with Ex forms of flight become particularly useful; class-based flight is a lot harder to find, and while worthwhile, is usually late-game and not a good combat-chassis to begin with.

Healing is almost nonexistent - which means you have to throw the 4/day encounter paradigm out the window (or play crazy-cautious, or get a photocopier to run off your finished character sheets, or cheese things up on defense, or...). The game will be much more lethal.

Anything with alignment-based Ex Regeneration is almost impossible to kill, unless you've got the appropriate subtype yourself.

Armor becomes almost useless for anything other than stymieing mooks and acting as Power Attack Resistance past about level 5 - AC will cap off at... what, 27 for Small characters in Mithral Fullplate + Tower Shield + Dodge + Dex-16? Any Thug monster of the appropriate CR will still kill you very dead.

What are you looking for, exactly?

Can it still be fun? Yes, for the right crowd. My brother has, in fact, run such games in older editions. Most of the people who will have fun with it won't be attracted to D&D in the first place, though.

[cfalcon]

For the record, I find this statement frusterating. Two of the three classes can do something magical, and one of those classes doesn't gain that ability until, I believe, level 17 (should you choose to take it).

Please try and avoid misleading comments like these, they really don't help anything.

I don't find it misleading at all, especially in trying to help someone who is looking at creating a low magic world, to the point of using a reality-wide AMF. From the perspective of a fighter, a rogue, and a barbarian, these guys will be stomping all over physics much earlier and much more consistently, and that's without the (Su) tagged abilities, or even counting the ones tagged (Ex) that should be tagged (Su).

If my opinion on 9swords was going to change from people disagreeing with me, it stands to reason this forum would have done that, being that it's the best place to go for Tome of Battle info and is filled with fans of it. Blade magic starts early and goes to the end, and it mostly works fine inside an AMF, with exceptions of the ones that light air on fire mostly.

I would assume that someone bathing the universe in AMF would be surprised to find that the crusader can, eventually, cast heal, unlike the clerics that likely no longer exist.

But anyway, back on track- OP, you will find the need to give your party back health unless you are ok with a highly realistic campaign featuring lots of rest. Your group will likely be composed of folks able to deal damage quickly and thoroughly, and your party should very definitely consist of a good archer who can deliver focus fire to burn down enemies- archers in general will be much stronger in a game with very little magic. Several classes rely on (Su) abilities, and you will have to either be ok with them sucking, or help them out. Many expansion books, on the other hand, have things tagged as (Ex) that may surprise you.

As your party gets older, it's ability to handle appropriate CRed creatures will dwindle, as the backing of casters and magical items is assumed. Specifically, the magic items will make a large power gulf starting toward the mid teens, so you should be careful what creatures you throw at them. Understand that pretty much every fight will resolve much closer to how it would in the real world as well.

[NichG]

I do however like the idea of a universe where magic operates only in specific locations. I may have to nab that for something.

You'd get centers (Loci) that are highly sought after, but any civilization that holds them entrenches very strongly (because they're the only ones who have an opportunity to train mages). Renegade mages that teach their craft outside the magic fields would be incredible military resources.

People would go to the Loci for healing, to create resources (Wall of Iron cheese might actually be non-cheesy in a world like this!), etc.

Another interesting idea would be if magic only existed around supernatural creatures - they literally bring the magic they need to function with them. People would trap them and use them as implements to work magic, but ostensibly you'd make it so that their ecology would prevent this from being a permanent solution (they don't survive captivity, etc). Maybe supernatural creatures even warp the plane around them and draw things into a pocket dimension, so that when you get near you're not even on the Material anymore (making captive supernaturals only useful for fixed-location magic usage).

[Kantolin]

From the perspective of a fighter, a rogue, and a barbarian, these guys will be stomping all over physics much earlier and much more consistently, and that's without the (Su) tagged abilities, or even counting the ones tagged (Ex) that should be tagged (Su).

A crusader has access to devoted spirit, stone dragon, and white raven. Glancing at first level for a bit.

Devoted spirit has Marital Strike and Crusader's strikes, both of which heal the user, and I'll get to those in a moment.

Beyond those...

Devoted Spirit has Iron Guard's glare, which makes you scary, and vanguard strike, which helps you lead by example by stabbing someone. Stone dragon has Charging minotaur, which lets you bull rush and stab someone, Stone bones, which makes you resilient, and stonefoot stance, which makes you hit harder and harder to hit by larger foes. White raven has bolstering voice, helping you command your peers, douce the flames, stabbing someone and disorienting them, leading the attack, giving your allies a bonus as you lead by example, and leading the charge, helping you and your allies doing more damage.

Physics isn't really buckling by 'Hitting harder!' and 'Commanding your allies'!

They have tons of powers like that. Stone dragon is, in fact, full of things like ancient mountain hammer and colossus strike, which are 'hit harder' and 'hit harder and knock the opponent backwards'.

To compare, a fighter can take the combat focus line for the PHB2, for example. Anyone can take them, but they're based on BAB and the fighter gets bonus feats for them, which makes the fighter a more logical pick.

These allows the fighter to:
Learn the hit point totals of all adjacent creatures
Hit harder!
Blindsight (albeit at a poor range)
And gain fast healing 2, which becomes 4.

These are just feats too. And I don't think anything in ToB can detect the hit points of adjacent creatures.

And like... a barbarian can take a feat to become immune to fire when he rages. A rogue can take a feat so his sneak attack damage becomes fire-elemental damage. A Ranger can take a feat to discern someone's types and subtypes just by hearing them. A monk can hop down a mountain. A barbarian can also hop down a mountain and just take the 20d6, after awhile.

So meh. "Wah tome of battle can heal" may in fact be valid, but there are other methods of doing so. If the statement is 'a fighter can just opt not to take the combat focus line', then 'a crusader can opt not to take the extremely few powers that are even remotely magical-feeling'.

One of which is being half-troll - having any kind of fast healing or regeneration would be useful in this setting. And I know there's at least one feat for fast healing in the complete warrior.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Edit: To analyze further, I suppose.

A small array of books have things which bolster your intimidate, which makes you scary. Shock trooper lets you bull rush and stab someone. A small array of feats or being a barbarian makes you resilient. Titan fighting and a few other feats let you be harder to hit by larger things.

That's just off the top of my head. ^_^ I'm sure there's a feat somewhere that helps your allies when you do something.

[cfalcon]

Being able to heal isn't just "useful", it's "broken", in a world where no one else has it. That's my point. Presumably, you would want to fix the system (or use one of the low-magic fixes to the system) to not have to deal with that.

Fishing up a relatively silly feat line which grants fast-healing (to anyone, not just a fighter), and at a much higher level than first doesn't change this. In fact, it's just one more thing he'd probably want to look at if he doesn't provide a good way to get hitpoints back. The fact of the matter is, 9swords is far out of line in a game like this, and pretty much everyone should be focussing on it or dipping into it. Which is fine if that is what you want.

I mean, I don't even see how this is in dispute. The whole argument in favor of the really high (far beyond the normal martial stuff) power level of tome of battle is that casters dominate the late game. Do you think casters dominate the late game in a reality filled with anti-magic? Of course not. So you'd want to scale back or eliminate this stuff as wildly overpowered, OR focus on it, if that's the game you want.


And like... a barbarian can take a feat to become immune to fire when he rages. A rogue can take a feat so his sneak attack damage becomes fire-elemental damage. A Ranger can take a feat to discern someone's types and subtypes just by hearing them. A monk can hop down a mountain. A barbarian can also hop down a mountain and just take the 20d6, after awhile.

And the ToB guy can score these tricks better, and have a lot more. Like I said, more physics defying game play, and sooner.

Whatever. The point is, OP needs to know what the story is on Tome in this game, because it will dramatically effect what kinds of characters will be punching the bad guys, more so than in a regular campaign.

[Divide by Zero]

Being able to heal isn't just "useful", it's "broken", in a world where no one else has it. That's my point. Presumably, you would want to fix the system (or use one of the low-magic fixes to the system) to not have to deal with that.

Then get rid of the healing stuff. The rest of it is entirely within the laws of physics, at least at low levels.

[Tvtyrant]

You would have to do a lot of tweaking to get the system right, since so many classes are based around SU abilities.

Examples: Ranger loses spells, Paladin loses spells and abilities mount (or at least the pokeball ability), Monk loses all of the silly add ons, Rogue loses UMD, etc. You would have to either give those classes new EX abilities or dump them (especially monk and pally).

My suggestion it to limit the classes to Rogue, Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian. Everything else is going to either have weird effects from the nerf or be overpowered (ToB). ToB in this case has lost its purpose, which is to make melee equal to casters.

[Boci]

My suggestion it to limit the classes to Rogue, Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian. Everything else is going to either have weird effects from the nerf or be overpowered (ToB). ToB in this case has lost its purpose, which is to make melee equal to casters.

You've also got scout and swashbuckler, possibly factotum, I'd need to check. Making the game E6 would limit the impact magic removal has.

The gestalt feats (or at least the better ones) might also make a character equal to a warblade, although thre latter would probably still be better.

[Kantolin]

Being able to heal isn't just "useful", it's "broken", in a world where no one else has it. That's my point.

Later you then put:


Fishing up a relatively silly feat line which grants fast-healing (to anyone, not just a fighter), and at a much higher level than first doesn't change this.

So does that mean 'Healing is broken if tome of battle is doing it' or 'healing is broken if it comes at low level'?

I have various problems with the latter analysis. In normal D&D, only a small subset of classes have the ability to heal - and most of them can heal so insufficiently that if they were the 'primary healer', the only reason it may work is due to wands (Ever had a Ranger be the primary healer in the party? I have. All healing is done out of combat, with wands)

So D&D by default requires you to bring a healer. So if only fighters and crusaders (and time) could heal, then you'll find parties frequently have a fighter xor a crusader. Or someone who squandered a level on nonmagical cleric to get 'the ability to turn or rebuke undead' so they could power the complete divine's sacred healing. Meh?

Now if you consciously don't want people healing except naturally, you can ban all these things I've mentioned and it works fine, but banning fighters because they can take a feat to heal seems kinda silly, as does banning crusaders as they can take a maneuver to heal.


The fact of the matter is, 9swords is far out of line in a game like this, and pretty much everyone should be focussing on it or dipping into it. Which is fine if that is what you want.

Probably, from a power point of view. Of course, if all you cared about was power, then nobody in a normal game would ever play a tome of battle class as they'd all be clerics, druids, and wizards. Or I suppose pun-pun.


I mean, I don't even see how this is in dispute. The whole argument in favor of the really high (far beyond the normal martial stuff) power level of tome of battle is that casters dominate the late game. Do you think casters dominate the late game in a reality filled with anti-magic? Of course not.

Ah, so there's the meat of the problem.

First of all, the OP didn't say 'I want to nerf wizards and force people to play specifically fighters' or anything. He said, if the world was an anti-magic zone, what would change? If the change is 'tome of battle classes come out on top', then fine and dandy.

If you ask me, though, 'wildly overpowered' is a questionable thing. Barbarians and Fighters do ubercharging [and especially in the former's case, damage] better than tome of battle as a general rule, and in antimagic field land where you have no magical equipment to help you deal with that say ogre, hitting it for infinity billion damage becomes more relevant, and nobody has an AC stat to defend thesmelves with anyway so you're losing nothing. And this is entirely feat-based, purely nonmagical, and is generally attributed to the fighter and barbarian. To compare, the crusader (3rd level maneuvers at level 5-6 which is when I'm analyzing) gets some tanking abilities - but it's rough to tank in antimagic field land - and a couple change abilities which do damage that aren't nearly as potent as ubercharging nonsense.

This isn't to say that the tome of battle isn't going to be stronger than the fighter, just that well... the 'unstoppable troll' taking a zillion damage from the charging fighter is also pretty irritable.

That said, I do agree that any method of natural flight would just rock worlds, as it would help negate the nonsensical ubercharging which would otherwise prevail. This leads to having useful ranged attackers, which again omits tome of battle - could you get a stalker of Kharash going in antimagic? If so, boosting favored enemy(evil) would just be nasty in this setting, particularly for an archer who desperately needs bonus damage.


And the ToB guy can score these tricks better, and have a lot more. Like I said, more physics defying game play, and sooner.

Wait. So it's okay if the barbarian bursts into flames and grows a size category, mixes his own damage reduction with adamantine armour and becomes immune to many foes, and jumps off a mountain and only lightly notices... but it's not okay if a crusader becomes scary (but not as scary), bull rushes and stabs someone (but not for the zillions of damage that comes through shock trooper), and gets damage reduction (Which the barbarian already has)?

Your interpretation of 'okay' and mine clearly differ. If I was going for a zero-magic feel, I'd say, "Please avoid taking things that are obviously magical", not allow fighters and rogues to heal themselves but not crusaders.

Of course, the OP's question was 'what would change', and a lot would, but separately causing house rules to make the game 'balanced' in a setting where nobody has an AC or real defense against most things is a completely different sequence. I wouldn't call a game with only fighters, barbarians, rogues, and nonmagical rangers 'balanced' either, just different.


Whatever. The point is, OP needs to know what the story is on Tome in this game, because it will dramatically effect what kinds of characters will be punching the bad guys, more so than in a regular campaign.

Tome of battle characters will be hitting people, for damage. That's what they're good at. They'll have more defenses than everyone else, but it'll be rough for anyone to stop a proper ubercharger - especially if the ubercharger has natural flight.

More focal, if you ask me, will be: It will be very easy to do a lot of damage, while it will be very difficult to take very much damage. People will have lousy AC and lousy overall defenses against anything. People will also have lousy will saves, so intimidator builds will be nasty and hard to deal with (Yigads, is this a situation where a complete warrior samurai is relevant?)

...on that note, a soulknife will be able to do something as he'll have a better weapon than everyone else, but I don't think a 'slightly magical soulknife' is enough to make up for a fighter's ability to be a fighter at him. Soulbow may change that, though.

If you ask me, Raptorans or any method of having wings would be far more nasty. A Raptoran archer will solve the majority of his problems by being up there, as there are no more wizards to wall of potatoes him or dimension door or something. If he is also an ubercharger, he can solve other raptoran archers too, and that many feats to spend screams 'fighter'. :P

Dragons will be similarly unsolveable except by ubercharging, as a dragon will just kinda rip apart your average person of its level who has no AC nor defenses, and dragons will likely have enough overall defense to defend themselves against archers.

In short, win initiative, do a ton of damage to your opponent before he does a ton of damage to you.

~~~~

As one last quick aside, I have played in a level 10 game where everyone got 'one' piece of magical equipment of any sort. The net/net of it was that, when we sparred, the two 'frontline' fighter-types both nearly one shotted the other on a full attack. Neither of us had any optimization at all outside of both using two handed weapons. Tome of battle or not, the game's gonna result in a lot of 'I win initiative, whack!'.

Edit: Er, to add to this fact, it was otherwise an 'extremely low magic' world. Nobody had any magic items, and all magic had to be extremely subtle, not terribly potent, and nonnoticable - bull's strength was okay, but enlarge person or certainly fireball or wall of anything were not. Thus it's relevant to this conversation, heh. :P

[Eldariel]

In my books, you almost have to run non-magic worlds under VP/WP system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) since that negates the need for constant healing (enabling fighting multiple fights in a row even if you get hit) while still modelling damage in a way that functions in D&D. WP damage is serious business while VP is more or less expendable.

Of course, for this to work you gotta limit Devoted Spirit maneuvers and other forms of healing to only heal VP, but that's easily enough done.

[true_shinken]

Only if the antimagic field has a duration expressed in rounds. (People can argue all they want about the semantics of this clause, but if the AMF is truly permanent, then IHS certainly doesn't apply!)

Hm... unless the multiverse is not truly permament (and it probably isn't), then the AMF is not truly permanent as well. :smallamused:

[Doc Roc]

Hm... unless the multiverse is not truly permament (and it probably isn't), then the AMF is not truly permanent as well. :smallamused:

Actually, the Far Realm has some fluff that makes the universe a closed timelike curve. Basically. To appropriate a term. And ruin it. But yeah.

[Coidzor]

My suggestion it to limit the classes to Rogue, Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian. Everything else is going to either have weird effects from the nerf or be overpowered (ToB). ToB in this case has lost its purpose, which is to make melee equal to casters.

Or just use ToB and variants of the more martial base classes in order to have some manner of options and interest for the characters despite the majority of content being cut.

[Serpentine]

I hadn't thought it through yet, but lets assume it is not as the spell, but an actual universe without magic so no spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities.Was it always this way, or was it once a normally magical universe?

[Tyndmyr]

Armor becomes almost useless for anything other than stymieing mooks and acting as Power Attack Resistance past about level 5 - AC will cap off at... what, 27 for Small characters in Mithral Fullplate + Tower Shield + Dodge + Dex-16? Any Thug monster of the appropriate CR will still kill you very dead.

You could also tack on a Dastana and fighting defensively to get another +5...but fighting defensively is rarely worthwhile. Uberchargers/ToB will still be essentially the only thing playable as a PC.

Troll blooded will be a ludicrously broken feat. Non-magical fire/acid is not really a big problem. The potential for unkillable characters opens up a great deal without magic.

The "some areas have magic, and the rest is actually AMFs" is much, much more interesting. You get some really fascinating cultural implications from that.

[cfalcon]

Or just use ToB and variants of the more martial base classes in order to have some manner of options and interest for the characters despite the majority of content being cut.

Allowing 9swords reduces options. Because they are so obviously superior to other options, only 9swords characters will be worth discussing.


I thought that should be obvious to anyone. You would either be running a 9swords only campaign, or banning it entirely so as to use the other classes and prestige classes that the 9swords guys obsolete.

[Doc Roc]

Allowing 9swords reduces options. Because they are so obviously superior to other options, only 9swords characters will be worth discussing.


I thought that should be obvious to anyone. You would either be running a 9swords only campaign, or banning it entirely so as to use the other classes and prestige classes that the 9swords guys obsolete.

If you ban it, the game spirals towards unplayable in this constrained mode.

[Vulaas]

There are plenty of things that still make sense besides Bo9S. A rogue can do quite nicely in such an environment, and Swift Hunters still work nicely as well. Of course, uberchargers always get their glass cannon type kicks (except when someone can ignore Power Attack).

Are Warblades, Crusaders, and Swordsages powerful options? Sure, they still are versatile melee characters who retain some degree of out of combat usefulness. Are they the only thing worth considering? In no way.

[Greenish]

Hmm, a raptoran swift hunter with fly-by attack, greater multishot and footbow would be quite a killer.

[Coidzor]

Allowing 9swords reduces options. Because they are so obviously superior to other options, only 9swords characters will be worth discussing.

All of the interesting stuff for those other options you're discussing has already been banned or gimped by virtue of the nature of the world though, hence my mentioning it at all as a counterpoint to TvTyrant, so, no, you're wrong, ToB and ToB-inspired homebrew worth its salt offer the maximum amount of options to characters given the castrated amount of RAW they have access to still.

[Divide by Zero]

Allowing 9swords reduces options. Because they are so obviously superior to other options, only 9swords characters will be worth discussing.


I thought that should be obvious to anyone. You would either be running a 9swords only campaign, or banning it entirely so as to use the other classes and prestige classes that the 9swords guys obsolete.

Further support for why D&D is not the best system to use for this setting.

[Tyndmyr]

If you ban it, the game spirals towards unplayable in this constrained mode.

This. Ubercharges are then ridiculous compared to everything else.

So you ban uberchargers. And so on. You just end up with a complete lack of playable options, and whatever remaining few options are left are entirely unable to deal with the monsters in this world.

So, the game basically sorta stops functioning. It's not really designed to be a magic-free system.

[Eldariel]

This. Ubercharges are then ridiculous compared to everything else.

So you ban uberchargers. And so on. You just end up with a complete lack of playable options, and whatever remaining few options are left are entirely unable to deal with the monsters in this world.

So, the game basically sorta stops functioning. It's not really designed to be a magic-free system.

Expanding ToB-classes to cover the PHB options (Rangers, Rogues [SS with Trapfinding, modified skills and obviously non-magical Shadow Hand], archery disciplines & all the good stuff), on the other hand, makes the world work perfectly fine. Really, it goes in lieu of non-ToB martial types being relatively unbalanced compared to one another while ToB brings them all to broadly the same baseline.

Obviously it takes some homebrew to make it work but given how awesome ToB is, I have a hard time imagining a more enjoyable system for low/no-magic D&D style. At least I've been more than satisfied with my experiences thus far.

[Morph Bark]

Alchemy is generally magical in D&D.

Honestly, I'd like to hear your explanation for this, because I have never, ever heard of such before.

[true_shinken]

Honestly, I'd like to hear your explanation for this, because I have never, ever heard of such before.
Maybe you should check the Craft skill.

To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment and be a spellcaster.
Emphasis mine.

[cfalcon]

All of the interesting stuff for those other options you're discussing has already been banned or gimped by virtue of the nature of the world though, hence my mentioning it at all as a counterpoint to TvTyrant, so, no, you're wrong, ToB and ToB-inspired homebrew worth its salt offer the maximum amount of options to characters given the castrated amount of RAW they have access to still.

Pretty much untrue here. There's plenty of books with plenty of prestige classes, none of which you would really mess with if you could be a warblade or crusader or swordsage. ToB greatly shrinks your field of valid stuff. Saying otherwise is silly, and you aren't even trying. Instead you use the "no true Scotsman" fallacy: Well, no, *no true options worth playing* aren't in the ToB....

If you play a game that starts with fighters, barbarians, and rogues, and then adds in some or all the (Ex) prestige classes that work with those, you'll end up with a game with many more valid options than if you allow 9swords, which by virtue of its excessive power level dominates the lesser stuff fully. That's just fact. You might not like the combat options that these guys have because it's stuff like actual normal attack actions instead of super buffed standards, but that's just your preference about playstyle.

There's definitely the attitude around here that, I guess, there wasn't even a game worth playing before 2006 saw the release of the Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon inspired expansion book. Most certainly there was, and it's a fine game. So is the 9swords one. But definitely, in a land without spell casters, the party of Tome of Battle enabled guys is going to be much more powerful than the meant-to-model-reality crew.

[Boci]

If you play a game that starts with fighters, barbarians, and rogues, and then adds in some or all the (Ex) prestige classes that work with those, you'll end up with a game with many more valid options than if you allow 9swords, which by virtue of its excessive power level dominates the lesser stuff fully. That's just fact.

Swift hunter and daring outlaw would play roughly equally to a warblade/crusader, hell even a simple rogue is going to deal more damage.

[Greenish]

If you play a game that starts with fighters, barbarians, and rogues, and then adds in some or all the (Ex) prestige classes that work with those, you'll end up with a game with many more valid options than if you allow 9swords, which by virtue of its excessive power level dominates the lesser stuff fully. That's just fact.That may be so in your group, but that doesn't mean it's a general fact. In my experience, you usually don't need to go for the absolutely most powerful option every time, and well, non-ToB melee has it's own tricks to amp up the power level (to the extent that they rather easily outdamage ToB classes).

Of course, that presumes that you know what you're doing, while ToB classes don't have such trap options and are pretty solid out of the box.



ToB or no ToB, it's a matter of preference like you said, so could you stop claiming that ToB is going to wreck the game and invalidate everything else? :smallamused:

[Coidzor]

Pretty much untrue here. There's plenty of books with plenty of prestige classes, none of which you would really mess with if you could be a warblade or crusader or swordsage. ToB greatly shrinks your field of valid stuff. Saying otherwise is silly, and you aren't even trying. Instead you use the "no true Scotsman" fallacy: Well, no, *no true options worth playing* aren't in the ToB....

No, I'm saying that the options that those options have for actual play when you cut out all non-mundane material cripples the actual options that any given option of those options has actual access to. There's options and then there's options and you're conflating the two. Though I'll admit I didn't help with that situation at all and there's probably a couple of posts where we were talking past one another.

A warblade has a lot more options open to it than an ubercharger, which becomes even more of a one-trick glass cannon pony. Many builds that offer up options to non-ToB are no longer legal or completely gimped.

We apparently disagree over the choice between forcing people to go with gimped options with a limited range of options open to them, or even no option at all, over options that actually have, well, options, which I guess is the actual crux of the matter.

In the absence of any particular impetus or pressure in the setup of the scenario to do things one way or the other, you favor cutting off the last system of options that have options, whereas I favor expanding that system to the other base classes since you have to do significant homebrewing anyway and much of the work has already been done for you.

[Kantolin]

A warblade has a lot more options open to it than an ubercharger, which becomes even more of a one-trick glass cannon pony.

If the ubercharger is a fighter, you can get power attack - leap attack - shock trooper moderately swiftly, and then move on to being an archer or something and not be a one trick pony and still do infinity zillion damage. Fighters are good at that.

And everyone is a glass cannon. Two knights using longswords and shields full attacking each other can both power attack to a ridiculous extent with little drawback, and will rip each other apart in two rounds. Two warblades using whatever will also rip each other apart in two rounds. A warblade vs a fighter will rip each other apart in two rounds. Unless either's an ubercharger, in which that person will rip apart the other in one round.


Many builds that offer up options to non-ToB are no longer legal or completely gimped.

A dungeoncrasher or a swift hunter would work fine, and I know the latter has been mentioned several times.

Really, the remaining classes do one thing well: Damage. The advantage to tome of battle is that it lets you do a small array of things beyond just damage. But in this particular setting, nobody has any defenses against anything at all - nobody is flying, nobody has magic armour, nobody had displacement. It becomes maddeningly difficult to survive a full attack by an [any monster of your CR] after level say 3. Nobody - this includes warblades and rogues alike. Everyone dies horribly to everything.

In addition, when you're comparing your damage to enemy monsters, it becomes hard to deal damage. You can't overcome damage reduction/magic, which becomes extremely common. You can't get X or Y to boost up your damage. You can't attempt to mitigate penalties from most things.

A single ubercharger, or even a moderatecharger as nobody can boost their constitution nor strength, does so much more damage than everyone that it's crazy, and the only solution to this is to be naturally able to fly.

I mean... a warblade is going to do +6d6 damage with a standard action. A pouncing ubercharger is going to do a heck of a lot more. Game balance issues are going to come from uberchargers and raptoran archers (And Raptoran Archer/Uberchargers), not warblades.

Although that would be kinda cool - the Raptoran Archer/Chargers who rock the world. It'd be rough to get a good archer build going, but a Raptoran archer could solve pretty much any grounded threat that stuck its head out, and if they could also charge, then they could solve other fliers. And now I want to make a setting run by Raptorans. They can rock the footbows to give themselves more range than most, and just focus on any silly groundbound archer first (Or have someone ubercharge them. It's slightly more risky to ubercharge as that in any way puts you in harms way, but once you omit their archers you can pick apart whomever's left with no chance of harm, and you know an ubercharger will solve them).

~~~~~~~~

Edit: Besides, people play fighters all the time nowadays, with or without the existance of tome of battle or higher-tier classes like wizards and clerics and stuff. Why would this mysteriously change when the highest tier becomes 3, and those units along with everyone else become pretty defenseless?

[Coidzor]

I mean... a warblade is going to do +6d6 damage with a standard action. A pouncing ubercharger is going to do a heck of a lot more. Game balance issues are going to come from uberchargers and raptoran archers (And Raptoran Archer/Uberchargers), not warblades.

Although that would be kinda cool - the Raptoran Archer/Chargers who rock the world. It'd be rough to get a good archer build going, but a Raptoran archer could solve pretty much any grounded threat that stuck its head out, and if they could also charge, then they could solve other fliers. And now I want to make a setting run by Raptorans. They can rock the footbows to give themselves more range than most, and just focus on any silly groundbound archer first (Or have someone ubercharge them. It's slightly more risky to ubercharge as that in any way puts you in harms way, but once you omit their archers you can pick apart whomever's left with no chance of harm, and you know an ubercharger will solve them).

So... You're saying that having only one real path is superior to offering the ability to take advantage of options other than "I charge and kill it" or "I shoot it lots and fly around so it can't hurt me back," then?

[Kantolin]

Edit copied from below: I.... I suddenly think I've made a rather big error, and am in fact arguing with Coidzor but thinking that I'm arguing against him. O-o Huh. I apologize - upon rereading, the two of us actually have relatively similar points. Haha, that's what I get for posting at work.
~~


So... You're saying that having only one real path is superior to offering the ability to take advantage of options other than "I charge and kill it" or "I shoot it lots and fly around so it can't hurt me back," then?

That's about the opposite of what I said. I'm suggesting that whether or not tome of battle is banned, uberchargers or the very rare archers (and then flying especailly) will be the primary option.

If you allow tome of battle, people might also play warblades or something instead. If you 'ban everyone except Fighters, Rangers, Rogue, and Barbarians', then everyone will be an ubercharger or the very rare archer. I mean, the warblade can do +6d6 and remove someone's ability to do an attack of opportunity for one round... an ubercharger can kill the target. Both of them, due to having no or few real defenses, will then take a serious mauling the next round from the resulting full attack from the enemy who presumably can do the same things.

Kinda like if a soulknife can have a magic weapon in this scenario, people might play a soulknife and do something different, but that doesn't mean a soulknife is better than a fighter.

~~~~~~~~~

Edit: I.... I suddenly think I've made a rather big error, and am in fact arguing with Coidzor but thinking that I'm arguing against him. O-o Huh. I apologize - upon rereading, the two of us actually have relatively similar points. Haha, that's what I get for posting at work.

[true_shinken]

Kinda like if a soulknife can have a magic weapon in this scenario, people might play a soulknife and do something different, but that doesn't mean a soulknife is better than a fighter.

Soulknife does get a check to mantain his weapon in an antimagic field.
Considering they'd be the only class with magical weapons, that's actualy something.

[Draz74]

The Elusive Target feat would like to have a word with this thread.

Personally, I've started dreaming up a Raptoran Swordsage with Elusive Target and Shifting Defense. (And of course Combat Reflexes.) Ubercharge that, suckas.

[Jack_Simth]

Soulknife does get a check to mantain his weapon in an antimagic field.
Considering they'd be the only class with magical weapons, that's actualy something.

Hmm... and a small Druid can get a flying animal companion big enough to ride (Dire bat) at level 4...

Hmm... Druid-4/Soulknife-2/Soulbow-2/Fighter-X?
Natural Bond to strengthen the Dire Bat a bit? Flying archer with unlimited magic ammo?

[Eldariel]

Hmm... and a small Druid can get a flying animal companion big enough to ride (Dire bat) at level 4...

Hmm... Druid-4/Soulknife-2/Soulbow-2/Fighter-X?
Natural Bond to strengthen the Dire Bat a bit? Flying archer with unlimited magic ammo?

Why so complicated? Wild Cohort removes the need for Druid entirely. Though honestly, given how much ammo costs (practically free) and how little non-magical D&D world has for you to do with your money equipment-wise, I'm not really sure how worthwhile Soulbow is either.

[Jack_Simth]

Why so complicated? Wild Cohort removes the need for Druid entirely. Though honestly, given how much ammo costs (practically free) and how little non-magical D&D world has for you to do with your money equipment-wise, I'm not really sure how worthwhile Soulbow is either.
Because if you ever DO run across one of the rare non-undead incorporeal critters (which can subsist without magic), then you'll need the only way to hurt them back. Sure, the 1d6/round from an Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm) is almost igorable... until you realize with dread that it's about as fast as you are, can go through walls, and you can't hurt it back.

Edit: Oh yes, and heaven help you if it picks up Libris Mortis and takes Ghostly Grasp as a feat.

Hmm... what's the least expensive way to be incorporeal while not being undead?

[Eldariel]

Get a Serrenwood Bow obv.

[true_shinken]

Why so complicated? Wild Cohort removes the need for Druid entirely. Though honestly, given how much ammo costs (practically free) and how little non-magical D&D world has for you to do with your money equipment-wise, I'm not really sure how worthwhile Soulbow is either.

Well, it's the only way to get a magical weapon. That's +5 to attack and damage, not considering special abilities. And since it's Soulbow, Wisdom to damage.