Dr Horrible Sing-Along Blog [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

View Full Version : Dr Horrible Sing-Along Blog

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 09:18 AM

Now the nightmare’s real
Now Dr. Horrible is here
To make you quake with fear
To make the whole world kneel

:smalleek:

Damn. When did Whedon decided to take such a brutal turn toward dark and edgy at the end?

Very fun show, very sudden and surprising (and serious) ending. Can't wait for the sequel.

Highly quotable musical! :smallamused:

Comet

2011-05-10, 09:30 AM

Everything Whedon does is highly quotable. For better or for worse :smalltongue:

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 09:36 AM

Everything Whedon does is highly quotable. For better or for worse :smalltongue:

Yhea, but when was the last time he did a Musical?!?!

rakkoon

2011-05-10, 09:38 AM

And the chorus goes: Buffy, Buffy, Buffy.

hamishspence

2011-05-10, 09:38 AM

There was that one episode of Buffy.

It even ended up appearing in 100 Greatest Musicals.

EDIT: Swordsaged.

Aidan305

2011-05-10, 09:40 AM

It's just a shame we never got a musical episode of Firefly really.

Dienekes

2011-05-10, 09:41 AM

If you can go watch the commentary, if you haven't already. It's about as fun as the actual show.

Obrysii

2011-05-10, 09:42 AM

Rumors abound of it being a high-budget full-length movie.

Though I do believe musicals improve everything. Scrubs? Check. Supervillians? Yep. Space opera? Why don't we make it literal?

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 09:48 AM

Rumors abound of it being a high-budget full-length movie.

Wait? What?

What will be a high-budget full length movie? The follow up on Dr Horrible? Or Serenity : The Musical?

Shades of Gray

2011-05-10, 09:49 AM

Though I do believe musicals improve everything. Scrubs? Check. Supervillians? Yep. Space opera? Why don't we make it literal?

The Musical episode of Grey's Anatomy was absolutely terrible. I mean, worse than the actual show.

Obrysii

2011-05-10, 10:05 AM

Wait? What?

What will be a high-budget full length movie? The follow up on Dr Horrible? Or Serenity : The Musical?

I am not at all a fan of Firefly, and feel that fans are blinded by their fandom and refuse to watch it objectively; therefore, I wouldn't care if there was a musical version of Serenity.

As the subject of this thread is Dr. Horrible, my statement regards that - one rumor has it as a high-budget full length movie.

Kato

2011-05-10, 12:19 PM

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 12:24 PM

Really, a full length musical? I dare say... please don't. I'm not sure full length cinematic musicals are a good idea. (Only exception I can think o right away would be The Producers of course) It's just something that doesn't translate well. (Okay, I'd probably go and watch it anyway).

If the songs are as good quality as in the original Dr Horrible...

and if Whedon really does the writing..

..

I'd give it a shot. Better, bigger cast. Has the potential of becoming a epic second only to Les Miserables..

Although, I'd probably wish for Dr Horrible to be the bona-fide villain. And I want Capt Hammer back..

Have anyone considered that maybe Capt Hammer only started to freak out when he noticed that Penny had been killed, instead of feeling genuine physical pain? Maybe for the first time, he cared for someone.. and that person died. Maybe that's the only pain he could actually suffer?

Or maybe I'm pulling theory out of nowhere. That's possible too...

Thufir

2011-05-10, 12:37 PM

Have anyone considered that maybe Capt Hammer only started to freak out when he noticed that Penny had been killed, instead of feeling genuine physical pain? Maybe for the first time, he cared for someone.. and that person died. Maybe that's the only pain he could actually suffer?

Or maybe I'm pulling theory out of nowhere. That's possible too...

Captain Hammer explained this in his introduction to the Dr. Horrible book:

There's one thing you (the gentle reader, not Dr. Horrible) will read in the transcript that is a little unclear, and I want to make certain it's understood. When I left the auditorium on the fateful day of Benny's death, I wasn't running away. I was running towards. The casual observer probably missed the screams of nuns and orphans that only I could hear, in the burning building only I could see, but that's why I had to leave so quickly, making lots of noise to cover the sound of their screams so Dr. Horrible wouldn't hear and try to kill them the way he killed my beloved Benji. So again, not running away.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-10, 12:44 PM

In other words, complete nonsense.

Dienekes

2011-05-10, 12:46 PM

If the songs are as good quality as in the original Dr Horrible...

and if Whedon really does the writing..

..

I'd give it a shot. Better, bigger cast. Has the potential of becoming a epic second only to Les Miserables..

Let's not go overboard here, there are a lot of great musicals out there.

Although, I'd probably wish for Dr Horrible to be the bona-fide villain. And I want Capt Hammer back..

Dr Horrible is a villain. It's just very hard to notice because Neil Patrick Harris is an incredibly charismatic man.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 12:46 PM

In other words, complete nonsense.

the thing is, if he somewhat recovers psychologically (i.e. stops crying), he could potentially come back and face Dr Horrible..

And that's trouble for Billy, AFAIK. I mean.. Capt Hammer know that Billy has nothing against him, except maybe pain him.. and Dr Horrible has nothing substantial on his resume except defeating Capt hammer by sacrificing his Death Ray.

Let's not go overboard here, there are a lot of great musicals out there.

Ever heard of enthousiast exagerations? :smalltongue:

Eldan

2011-05-10, 12:52 PM

Let's not go overboard here, there are a lot of great musicals out there.

Dr Horrible is a villain. It's just very hard to notice because Neil Patrick Harris is an incredibly charismatic man.

Nonsense. The Great JOSS invented singing. So, there can't be any other musicals.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 12:55 PM

I once mused what a Joss-written adaptation to The Hunckback of Notre-Dame Quebec-written musical would be...

.... :smalleek:

yhea. Esmeralda is soooo dead...

Tazar

2011-05-10, 12:58 PM

to be the bona-fide villain. And I want Capt Hammer back..

Have anyone considered that maybe Capt Hammer only started to freak out when he noticed that Penny had been killed, instead of feeling genuine physical pain? Maybe for the first time, he cared for someone.. and that person died. Maybe that's the only pain he could actually suffer?

Or maybe I'm pulling theory out of nowhere. That's possible too...

Nope, Captain Hammer flipped out when he felt actual pain, he doesn't care about Penny at all.

WalkingTarget

2011-05-10, 01:04 PM

I once mused what a Joss-written adaptation to The Hunckback of Notre-Dame Quebec-written musical would be...

.... :smalleek:

yhea. Esmeralda is soooo dead...

Uhh...

I don't know what you're referring to with the "Quebec-written musical" part - but unless it's terribly different from the original novel, Esmeralda dying wouldn't be a twist at all.

comicshorse

2011-05-10, 01:14 PM

Esmeralda won't die, she will however kick dozens of people in the head :smallsmile:

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 01:16 PM

Uhh...

I don't know what you're referring to with the "Quebec-written musical" part - but unless it's terribly different from the original novel, Esmeralda dying wouldn't be a twist at all.

For the uninformed. Here is probably one of the best musical written in the late 90s.

First song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L24vaxNH91w)

The musical goes deeply in the character's psyche, adding also a layer of social struggle about the Paperless (illegal immigrants) and the changes society is going through. I think it held (and still hold) the Guiness Record for the most successful first year for a musical.

It's not a twist at all. But her death is still poignant. Joss would probably kill another character, just out of spite... :smallamused:

Mewtarthio

2011-05-10, 01:22 PM

And that's trouble for Billy, AFAIK. I mean.. Capt Hammer know that Billy has nothing against him, except maybe pain him.. and Dr Horrible has nothing substantial on his resume except defeating Capt hammer by sacrificing his Death Ray.

Bad Horse wanted Horrible to prove his ruthlessness, remember? That's why his second letter explicitly said that he would have to kill someone to enter the ELE. He wasn't accepted because he injured Captain Hammer; he was accepted because he'd shown how evil he was by (apparently) murdering his arch-nemesis's girlfriend.

Esmeralda won't die, she will however kick dozens of people in the head :smallsmile:

Except Quasimodo loves Esmeralda, and Esmeralda has a crush on Phoebus. That's two reasons for Joss to kill her as ignobly as possible.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 01:28 PM

Except Quasimodo loves Esmeralda, and Esmeralda has a crush on Phoebus. That's two reasons for Joss to kill her as ignobly as possible.

Joss would probably have Esmeralda kill Pheobus near the end, out of anger, 'cause she finally realise what a tool he really is, just wanted to get into her pants.

Then she goes running to find Quasimodo, maybe not to love him, but at least be with him. And she realises he's dead. Either suicide, or been killed by [??].

And then she is captured, and killed...

CarpeGuitarrem

2011-05-10, 02:25 PM

And that's trouble for Billy, AFAIK. I mean.. Capt Hammer know that Billy has nothing against him, except maybe pain him.. and Dr Horrible has nothing substantial on his resume except defeating Capt hammer by sacrificing his Death Ray.

But the Dr. has also taken a few levels since joining the ELE. He has plenty of grudge material against Cap'n Tightpants, and wouldn't hesitate to off him.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 02:28 PM

But the Dr. has also taken a few levels since joining the ELE. He has plenty of grudge material against Cap'n Tightpants, and wouldn't hesitate to off him.

Fair ennough...

...

So, the follow-up movie is focusing about Capt Hammer stopping being so Jerkass, and finally standing up to Dr Horrible? :smalltongue:
God, I was sure I could say that with a straight face

Tazar

2011-05-10, 02:33 PM

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 02:42 PM

I am interested to see if they work in Penny in some manner. I wouldn't want her to come back, as it would cheapen her death, but I do hope Felicia Day gets worked in even as a "conscience" for Billy or something because it would't really be Dr. Horrible without her.

Or you simply don't have Dr Horrible as the focus of the next movie.

I wouldn't mind it, seriously. Have Dr Horrible as the bi-dimentional villain that he always wanted to become. We know he's deeper than what meet the eyes...

Tazar

2011-05-10, 02:45 PM

Or you simply don't have Dr Horrible as the focus of the next movie.

I wouldn't mind it, seriously. Have Dr Horrible as the bi-dimentional villain that he always wanted to become. We know he's deeper than what meet the eyes...

I don't know, it might seem a little silly to have a Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog that doesn't focus around, y'know, Doctor Horrible. :smalltongue:

Having the perspective of the villain is rare, which what makes it interesting. I wouldn't want to lose that.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 02:55 PM

I don't know, it might seem a little silly to have a Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog that doesn't focus around, y'know, Doctor Horrible. :smalltongue:

Having the perspective of the villain is rare, which what makes it interesting. I wouldn't want to lose that.

Then don't call it Dr Horrible's Sing-Along Blog, dude... :smallconfused:

Make it happen in the same universe. Have roughly the same characters. Just don't focus the story on Dr Horrible.

Plus, now that Dr Horrible has defeated Capt Hammer, it is time for Dr Horrible's other nemesis to step up (he waited 45 minutes in a park, you know!). Maybe we could focus on him?

Tazar

2011-05-10, 03:20 PM

It's not about the title, though, it's about the fact that the whole point of creating a sequel set in the "Doctor Horrible-verse" would be to further explore the character himself.

You can't have "roughly" the same characters without having all the same characters, because literally the only characters of any note whatsoever in the original are Doctor Horrible, Captain Hammer, and Penny, one of whom is now deceased.

The Doctor Horrible setting simply isn't unique or distinctive enough to warrant new characters in the same universe; it's an interesting work because of the main characters.

It'd be like creating a sequel to Superman and having the main character be Batman. Just doesn't make any sense.

Keld Denar

2011-05-10, 03:54 PM

Don't forget about Moist! He's the 4th most awesome character in that show! He's still alive!

Also, obligatory Felicia Day is hot comment.

Kato

2011-05-10, 03:56 PM

Also, obligatory Felicia Day is hot comment.

I totally support that.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 04:05 PM

The Doctor Horrible setting simply isn't unique or distinctive enough to warrant new characters in the same universe; it's an interesting work because of the main characters..

No. It's an interesting work because of the songs, the humor and, as you said, the main character.

Why do you feel you have to re-do the exact same formula as the original material? Why can't the story evolve? Why can't the setting evolve?

Joss is talented ennough to create a few new key characters, all of them archetypes presented like the Original 3, and just as nice to hear sing and perform in front of us. What more do you need?

Tazar

2011-05-10, 04:11 PM

No. It's an interesting work because of the songs, the humor and, as you said, the main character.

Why do you feel you have to re-do the exact same formula as the original material? Why can't the story evolve? Why can't the setting evolve?

Joss is talented ennough to create a few new key characters, all of them archetypes presented like the Original 3, and just as nice to hear sing and perform in front of us. What more do you need?

My point is that it's not a Doctor Horrible sequel if you do that.

To repeat the point, it'd be like creating a Superman sequel that didn't feature Superman. That's not a sequel, it's an entirely new work.

They wouldn't be calling it a "Doctor Horrible sequel" if they were planing to sideline the existing characters and bring in a new cast, because in that case it'd be a new superhero musical, not a sequel. Sequels exist to continue the stories of characters in prior movies. Sidelining Doctor Horrible is not the way to do this.

Moist is still alive, very true, but he might be a bit of a tough sell. :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr

2011-05-10, 04:15 PM

I am not at all a fan of Firefly, and feel that fans are blinded by their fandom and refuse to watch it objectively; therefore, I wouldn't care if there was a musical version of Serenity.

I have watched it objectively. I liked the hell out of it. This is how I became a fan.

That said, the comics are nothing special.

I'm not a huge fan of musicals, but this one was fantastic. And yes, I also liked Dollhouse. Not a big buffy fan, though. So, I guess I'm safe from being entirely a whedon-whateverist.

I'd be forced to watch a full length Dr Horrible, of course. The curiosity would be too great not to.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 04:22 PM

My point is that it's not a Doctor Horrible sequel if you do that.

To repeat the point, it'd be like creating a Superman sequel that didn't feature Superman. That's not a sequel, it's an entirely new work.

They wouldn't be calling it a "Doctor Horrible sequel" if they were planing to sideline the existing characters and bring in a new cast, because in that case it'd be a new superhero musical, not a sequel. Sequels exist to continue the stories of characters in prior movies. Sidelining Doctor Horrible is not the way to do this.

Your problem is that you refuse to think there might be a chance of point of view.

Just have a new main protagonist, and Dr Horrible as the main stage villain, just like Capt Hammer was the main stage villain antagonist in the 1st movie. Would it mean Dr Horrible will be sidelined? Yhea, would it mean it'd be bad? No!

I'm trying to point out a movie where they changed the active protagonist between movies, because they went in a logic succession of who's important. I just dislike the idea of clinging to the original characters just because... they are the original characters. What made a receipe successfull with your original characters might not take hold again, 'cause the freaking story affected everybody hard.

You just cannot have the same thing, so just stop trying to recreate what cannot be done. Penny is dead. Capt Hammer is defeated. What's the point of bringing Dr Horrible AGAIN as the center of the story if you don't have an interesting dynamic and character struggle?

I'd rather have Dr Horrible as a main character, but not as the focus, so the "new" Red-Horrible would be genuinely menacing. He's alien to us now. He's a bad guy all the way, for he killed his beloved...

Tazar

2011-05-10, 04:28 PM

Again, that'd be like having a Superman sequel, except with Superman as the antagonist. Why?

The whole point of the first Doctor Horrible was to chronicle his journey as a character. That journey is nowhere near done, and there's plenty of story left to tell. Why shift away from that?

Clinging to the original characters just for the sake of it is one thing, but equally, changing the original characters just for the sake of changing them is pretty pointless. Especially when there's a story still to be told.
Imagine if they'd changed the characters abruptly in the middle of Star Wars, for example.

There's simply no call for it. As Doctor Horrible indicated, Billy is still there, and now he's wracked with guilt. The villain may have taken over on the outside, but the human side is very much so still there. In fact, I'd say he's probably got more inner turmoil now than he ever did before.

I reiterate, the point of a sequel is to continue the story being told, and the story of Doctor Horrible is Doctor Horrible's personal journey.

A work with him and the erstwhile Captain Hammer as background characters isn't a sequel, it's a spinoff.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-10, 04:44 PM

Clinging to the original characters just for the sake of it is one thing, but equally, changing the original characters just for the sake of changing them is pretty pointless. Especially when there's a story still to be told.
Imagine if they'd changed the characters abruptly in the middle of Star Wars, for example.

Very bad example. Star Wars was plot-centric, not character-centric. Plus, there wasn't any personnal journey or struggle or achievements that was aimed to be the point of the movies of Star Wars. It was all about beating the bad guys.

1) Dr Horrible ended up with achieving his professional goal; he's in the ELE.
2) He failed his personnal goal, Penny's dead.

He simply didn't cared about Capt Hammer, for he wanted to kill him only because of reason 1 and reason 2..

There is nothing else to be said about him. All that defined him has been resolved. He completed his journey. You don't need to make an entire movie focusing on HIM.

Tazar

2011-05-10, 04:56 PM

Very bad example. Star Wars was plot-centric, not character-centric. Plus, there wasn't any personnal journey or struggle or achievements that was aimed to be the point of the movies of Star Wars. It was all about beating the bad guys.

1) Dr Horrible ended up with achieving his professional goal; he's in the ELE.
2) He failed his personnal goal, Penny's dead.

There is nothing else to be said about him. All that defined him has been resolved. He completed his journey. You don't need to make an entire movie focusing on HIM.

We may not have been watching the same Star Wars, then. :smallwink:

I feel you are manifestly in error in your assessment of Billy/Doctor Horrible. As "Everything You Ever" plainly indicates, he still has a great deal of personal conflict. His journey is far from over, because now he's gotten what he thought he wanted but realizes it pales in significance compared to what he's lost. Note all the changes; the red robe, the fact that he seems pretty much emotionally dead throughout the finale, the final shot of him looking lost.

There's still a huge amount of character depth to be explored there.

Xondoure

2011-05-10, 05:07 PM

Honestly I agree that the Dr. should be the center for a couple reasons. 1) Its Neil Patrick Harris, how do you not keep him? 2) the world is fun but in the end its about him, if Whedon is going to write a story about a different character, do it somewhere else so he can build a shiny new world.

Thufir

2011-05-10, 06:40 PM

On the possible reappearance of Penny - Dr. Horrible is something of a mad scientist. Reanimation of the dead is not necessarily out of the question.

Tazar

2011-05-10, 07:39 PM

On the possible reappearance of Penny - Dr. Horrible is something of a mad scientist. Reanimation of the dead is not necessarily out of the question.

Heh, that is true.

I would like her to stay dead, as her death is crucial to Doctor Horrible's development as a character. Plus, in Whedon productions, if you die and you're not one of the primary main characters (and often even then) you tend to stay dead.

G-Man Graves

2011-05-10, 07:41 PM

Well, her reanimation could go to show that the Doctor has become a nut and is desperately trying to impose his own reality on the world.

Weezer

2011-05-10, 07:58 PM

Heh, that is true.

I would like her to stay dead, as her death is crucial to Doctor Horrible's development as a character. Plus, in Whedon productions, if you die and you're not one of the primary main characters (and often even then) you tend to stay dead.

While Whedon does kill of supporting characters pretty often as a method of pushing character development if you're one of the main characters there is no way you're staying dead. Buffy is one of the prime examples of that, she dies in the first season for crying out loud.

Dr.Epic

2011-05-10, 09:19 PM

Hmmm. I've never heard of this before. Tell me, is it the type of thing I might be interested in and someday decide to create a screen name based around the title character?:smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Philistine

2011-05-10, 09:23 PM

Dr Horrible is a villain. It's just very hard to notice because Neil Patrick Harris is an incredibly charismatic man.
True. Dat.

Plus he's mostly ineffective for most of the show, getting him an "oh, he's harmless" pass from a lot of viewers. But Evil & Incompetent is still Evil.

Plus people see the "well, he's fundamentally a decent guy underneath it all" bit and miss the whole "he's making a conscious, deliberate choice to be a villain" bit. But the pangs of conscience do not make him a Good person, if he willfully ignores them to choose Evil instead. (Worse, he doesn't seem to have a motivation for becoming a villain beyond pure selfishness - he's not a well-intentioned extremist, or a damaged soul who just doesn't know any other way to live, or ignorant of the consequences of his choices, or acting out of fear/self-preservation; he wants fame, money, and power, and he sees supervillainy as the most expedient route to those things.)

Plus Captain Hammer is a boor, and a bully, and a bit of a buffoon, and he intentionally goads Billy into making the attack that kills Penny. But the fact that Hammer is gray at best doesn't make Horrible any less black.

Underneath the calculatedly sympathetic presentation of the Sing-Along Blog, Dr. Horrible is rotten to the core. Which might be deliberate, and then again it also might not be. Hard to say.

Mewtarthio

2011-05-10, 09:32 PM

(Worse, he doesn't seem to have a motivation for becoming a villain beyond pure selfishness - he's not a well-intentioned extremist, or a damaged soul who just doesn't know any other way to live, or ignorant of the consequences of his choices, or acting out of fear/self-preservation; he wants fame, money, and power, and he sees supervillainy as the most expedient route to those things.)

In his awkward conversations with Penny, he does mention that he believes the system is broken, and that only a strong leader can sweep it aside an build a new one. Granted, why he thinks a crime syndicate run by a bloodthirsty equine will make a better system is never touched upon. It's possible that's just a flimsy excuse ("Er, of course it's okay to take over the world! It can't make things any worse, right?"); if not, it kind of smacks of megalomania.

Xondoure

2011-05-10, 09:44 PM

He's ultimately a Luther figure who believes they truly can make the world better, but go about it completely wrong, Horrible also lacks Luthor's competence. And to me at least he is very sympathetic. He's the Peter Parker of super villains with normal problems other nerds can relate to. And whenever he tries to make things better things go completely wrong so its not hard to see the path that drove him here. That said as much as I continue to love the show every bit as much as when I first saw it every time I return I catch little snippets of evil I missed completely on the first viewing due to the charisma that is Neil Patrick Harris. Last time I saw it Billy was downright nasty, and he always has been I just never saw it before. Sometimes people are layered like that. There's something totally different underneath than what's on the surface. And sometimes there's a third, even deeper level, and that one is the same as the top surface one. Like with pie.

Tazar

2011-05-10, 10:51 PM

While Whedon does kill of supporting characters pretty often as a method of pushing character development if you're one of the main characters there is no way you're staying dead. Buffy is one of the prime examples of that, she dies in the first season for crying out loud.

Au contraire, my friend! :smalltongue:
See below for a list:
The only ones who juke death are Buffy and Angel. From BtVS and Angel, main characters who die include:
Tara
Doyle
Cordelia
Fred
Wesley
Joyce
Spike (brought back in Angel, but likely dies there)

The "core four" of the Scoobies make it out intact, granted, but the attrition rate is still high, especially for Angel main characters.

Doctor Horrible is absolutely a villain, but that's what makes him such a fascinating character. He wants to be this great big villainous figure, yes. But at the same time he's reluctant to kill, he wants to earn the love of a girl and is incredibly shy around her, and he genuinely appears to believe what he's doing will enact social change for the better.

He's a very complex and three-dimensional villain, which is what makes him phenomenal as a character.

Likewise, we're confronted with a rather dim (and entirely believable) perspective on how a Superman-esque figure might actually behave towards "normals" who he perceives as his inferiors.

Doctor Horrible is great because it breaks the stereotypes of a hero story and makes you examine the concept of a superhero and a supervillain in less black-and-white terms.

Weezer

2011-05-10, 11:29 PM

Au contraire, my friend! :smalltongue:
See below for a list:
The only ones who juke death are Buffy and Angel. From BtVS and Angel, main characters who die include:
Tara
Doyle
Cordelia
Fred
Wesley
Joyce
Spike (brought back in Angel, but likely dies there)

The "core four" of the Scoobies make it out intact, granted, but the attrition rate is still high, especially for Angel main characters.

I must admit I'm only partway through Angel, so the only one of those deaths I've seen is Doyle. And I don't count Spike dying in the finale of Buffy, it was just that bad. (Yes I know it happened, but I've done my best to repress it). He seems to be especially bad on love interests though. Two of Buffy's die (though they come back), Willow's dies, Doyle is Cordelia's love interest, Fred dies when she's Wesley's love interest (heard about that one from the GF), Ms. Calendar (though not a main character) is Giles's. It's a pretty substantial pattern...
Just don't fall in love or let someone fall in love with you in Whedonverse and you'll be immortal I guess.

Tazar

2011-05-11, 12:59 AM

I must admit I'm only partway through Angel, so the only one of those deaths I've seen is Doyle. And I don't count Spike dying in the finale of Buffy, it was just that bad. (Yes I know it happened, but I've done my best to repress it). He seems to be especially bad on love interests though. Two of Buffy's die (though they come back), Willow's dies, Doyle is Cordelia's love interest, Fred dies when she's Wesley's love interest (heard about that one from the GF), Ms. Calendar (though not a main character) is Giles's. It's a pretty substantial pattern...
Just don't fall in love or let someone fall in love with you in Whedonverse and you'll be immortal I guess.

Definitely a very valid analysis. However, I think some of those deaths aren't so much due to their status as a love interest as their being a love interest is simply an additional set of consequences. Especially in the case of Doyle, Fred and Tara.

Speaking of love interests, I wish Kennedy had died, but as it stands I'm simply forced to pretend she never happened.

Xondoure

2011-05-11, 01:14 AM

As awesome as Tara was, I still wish they had kept Oz around, he remains my favorite character in the series.

Tazar

2011-05-11, 01:18 AM

As awesome as Tara was, I still wish they had kept Oz around, he remains my favorite character in the series.

Yup, I was disappointed with Seth Green for leaving, especially because that film career...didn't really pan out. :smalltongue:
In a show where everyone's rather glib, it was great to have someone who was much more of a reserved presence. While I do think Tara was a necessary step for Willow's character arc, it would have been good to have Oz at least through all of Season 4 instead of his rather abrupt departure.

Perhaps the sole redeeming point of the comics is that they were able to bring Oz back into the series.

RabbitHoleLost

2011-05-11, 01:35 AM

I don't know if its been brought up, but Whedon won't even really consider the sequel anymore than he already has until Avengers is done and over with :smallsigh:

But NPH is totally gunning for it, and that's tall the encouragement I need.

Anyways, I love Dr Horrible (If you Facebookers couldn't tell by my middle name) because its not about Billy's love for Penny. Its about the loss of innocence and self in the conquering of ambitions.
Also, Neil Patrick Harris. I mean, jeebus.

...I wanna whip out my Dr H avatar Siena made me again >>

Philistine

2011-05-11, 01:44 AM

VanBuren

2011-05-11, 01:56 AM

Billy repeatedly says the system is broken, yes, but he doesn't ever quite get around to telling us what he thinks the problems are. And in Slipping, the things he wants are cash, fame, and social change, in that order. Sure, it could be that the order was dictated by the rhyme scheme and meter - but then again, Billy's Big Idea for Social Change is "Anarchy - that I run!" Yeah. Reformer my asp. :smallamused:

And to add to Tazar's list, Gunn (almost certainly) and
Angel (about the same odds as Spike) in the Angel series finale, also
Anya in the Buffy finale

A little better than half the series regulars on Buffy survived to the end of the series; Angel OTOH very nearly made a clean sweep of the AI crew, with the only survivors of the finale being Lorne and (almost certainly) Connor.
As for coming back from the dead... There's Buffy, Darla, and Spike... and I can't think of any others. Angel was sent to Hell at the end of Becoming, but not killed. Other characters made post-mortem appearances in flashbacks, or as ghostly apparitions or visions, but I don't recall anyone else actually being returned to life after dying.

Of course most of that speech was a performance on his part, and much of it was bravado. After all, when it came time to actually pull the trigger and shoot Hammer... he choked. Was he entirely noble? No. But Slipping takes places after he's emotionally snapped. Hurt and confused, he's convinced that everything out there is going to hurt him so he might as well hurt it first.

Now, this I will say: Horrible and Hammer are both fairly nasty people especially in regards to Penny. Hammer is the archetypical "Jerk" and Horrible is the quintessential "Nice Guy™" with all the creepiness and treating women just as badly in his own way.

RabbitHoleLost

2011-05-11, 02:03 AM

Horrible is the quintessential "Nice Guy™" with all the creepiness and treating women just as badly in his own way.

Lets not forget the stalking...Or am I the only one who remembers the picture he keeps of Penny right next to his big chair?
You know, the one taken through the leaves of a bush?

However, I do wish to point out that Dr Horrible and Billy are sort of two different entities...

Philistine

2011-05-11, 02:43 AM

Of course most of that speech was a performance on his part, and much of it was bravado. After all, when it came time to actually pull the trigger and shoot Hammer... he choked. Was he entirely noble? No. But Slipping takes places after he's emotionally snapped. Hurt and confused, he's convinced that everything out there is going to hurt him so he might as well hurt it first.

Now, this I will say: Horrible and Hammer are both fairly nasty people especially in regards to Penny. Hammer is the archetypical "Jerk" and Horrible is the quintessential "Nice Guy™" with all the creepiness and treating women just as badly in his own way.
Color me unimpressed. If Billy ever had a plan nobler than "anarchy that I run," he certainly never mentioned it - not even when he and Penny were jawing about the ills of the world and what could be done about them. He talks about throwing the existing social order into chaos, and that seems to be as far as his plans go. The word for that in English is not "reformer."

And again, the fact that Billy consciously spurs himself to act worse than his instincts would dictate does not make him in any way a Good Person. In fact, morally it's worse than if he didn't have that inner struggle, because he's clearly choosing the path he does despite knowing better.

Lets not forget the stalking...Or am I the only one who remembers the picture he keeps of Penny right next to his big chair?
You know, the one taken through the leaves of a bush?

However, I do wish to point out that Dr Horrible and Billy are sort of two different entities...
Also don't forget the on-screen stalking as Billy follows Penny and Hammer around on their dates, dishing up soup at Penny's shelter and skulking around with a portable shrubbery at the park.

And IF Horrible and Billy are essentially different, Dr. Horrible is what Billy aspires to be. That's not a point in Billy's favor.

Selrahc

2011-05-11, 03:20 AM

Au contraire, my friend! :smalltongue:
See below for a list:
The only ones who juke death are Buffy and Angel. From BtVS and Angel, main characters who die include:
Tara
Doyle
Cordelia
Fred
Wesley
Joyce
Spike (brought back in Angel, but likely dies there)

The "core four" of the Scoobies make it out intact, granted, but the attrition rate is still high, especially for Angel main characters.

I think that the list shows that Joss enjoys blurring the boundary of life and death for his characters, at least in Angel.

Doyle, plans to bring him back as a villain curtailed by the sad death of the actor.
Cordelia, death of the body only. Cordelia continues to exist among the powers that be as a god.
Fred, almost the opposite case. Death of the mind, with Illyria taking over the body. With hints of Fred's personality remaining somewhere that were developed in the comics.
Wesley, killed in the series finale. Brought back as a ghost in the comics.

The Buffy deaths

Tara
Anya
Joyce
Jonathan

have not been messed with aside from Buffy and Spike.

In his comics work I can think of at least the resurrection of Colossus that shows that he is willing to bring back characters from the dead in a superhero medium.

VanBuren

2011-05-11, 04:31 AM

Color me unimpressed. If Billy ever had a plan nobler than "anarchy that I run," he certainly never mentioned it - not even when he and Penny were jawing about the ills of the world and what could be done about them. He talks about throwing the existing social order into chaos, and that seems to be as far as his plans go. The word for that in English is not "reformer."

Honestly? He talked like a guy who didn't have a long-term plan. The world is run by horrible, nasty people. Get rid of them and... something. That was part of why Horrible was never going to be a huge threat if Hammer hadn't pushed him: he just didn't have it in him to commit to anything bigger than small-time stuff.

And again, the fact that Billy consciously spurs himself to act worse than his instincts would dictate does not make him in any way a Good Person. In fact, morally it's worse than if he didn't have that inner struggle, because he's clearly choosing the path he does despite knowing better.

But does he know better consciously? He seems convinced consciously of the rightness and necessity of his cause. Instinctively he's drawn away from his actions, but he doesn't necessarily know why.

[quote]Also don't forget the on-screen stalking as Billy follows Penny and Hammer around on their dates, dishing up soup at Penny's shelter and skulking around with a portable shrubbery at the park.

I said he was a "Nice Guy™", I never said he was a nice guy.

Radar

2011-05-11, 07:03 AM

I just watched the thing. It's really good (music, plot, main character). For me, the focal point of the stroy, is when Penny dies and he decides to roll with it - very powerful emotionally.

Really, a full length musical? I dare say... please don't. I'm not sure full length cinematic musicals are a good idea. (Only exception I can think o right away would be The Producers of course) It's just something that doesn't translate well. (Okay, I'd probably go and watch it anyway)
(...)
On my personal list there are: Hair, Rent and Chicago. Full lenght musicals can be pulled off. I'm not sure if Singin' in the rain would count as a musical, but the musical numbers went well with the rest of the movie. As always, personal tastes take precedence.

Heh, that is true.

I would like her to stay dead, as her death is crucial to Doctor Horrible's development as a character. Plus, in Whedon productions, if you die and you're not one of the primary main characters (and often even then) you tend to stay dead.
There is always the possibility of the resurrection going horribly right: he succeeds only to make her suffer unintentionally due to the wicked nature of the revival process. After all, he has a PhD in horribleness.

Dienekes

2011-05-11, 08:53 AM

Honestly? He talked like a guy who didn't have a long-term plan. The world is run by horrible, nasty people. Get rid of them and... something. That was part of why Horrible was never going to be a huge threat if Hammer hadn't pushed him: he just didn't have it in him to commit to anything bigger than small-time stuff.

Yet he still committed small time stuff, for very little reason. At times out of what just seems like spite: It's not about making money, it's about taking money.

And Hammer pushing him? He bragged about screwing his own girlfriend. Oh no, what a terrible person. Yes Hammer is a nasty piece of work, no argument here. But Horrible is a guy who plans to commit murder because he didn't get the girl. That is, I'm not even sure I have words for how disgustingly pathetic that is.

But does he know better consciously? He seems convinced consciously of the rightness and necessity of his cause. Instinctively he's drawn away from his actions, but he doesn't necessarily know why.

Ahh yes, his noble cause that all seem to just involve him at the top with no long term often conflicting plans. That just means you can add idiot to his increasing list of faults. Even his actions at the end demonstrate he has no idea what he's doing. Once the entire city was afraid of him he robs a bank and throws a party. Clearly, he was the greatest social worker with the cities best interest in mind. Add his final reaction and lyrics to the fact that we never actually see anything wrong with the city to begin with (alright, it has some homeless people, sad but hardly revolution worthy) and it pretty clearly paints the picture that Horrible's view of social change is just that he's on the top. He pays lip service to change and helping others but he does nothing about it, he just wants to be at the top of the food chain when by all appearances his life wasn't all that bad to begin with.

Weezer

2011-05-11, 09:15 AM

There is always the possibility of the resurrection going horribly right: he succeeds only to make her suffer unintentionally due to the wicked nature of the revival process. After all, he has a PhD in horribleness.

We had enough of that with Buffy's season of "oh no you pulled me from heaven" angst thank you very much.

mangosta71

2011-05-11, 09:15 AM

And Hammer pushing him? He bragged about screwing his own girlfriend. Oh no, what a terrible person.
One of Hammer's most important lines to Billy in that scene is "I get what you want." He wasn't just bragging about sleeping with Penny - it was about blocking Billy's advances and then rubbing it in his face. And while he's doing that, he makes it apparent that he doesn't really care that much about the girl.

If that attitude defines his character, events in the show take on a different color. Hammer isn't out stopping Dr. Horrible out of any desire to do good - he's acting out of spite just as much as Billy is. However, Billy's spite can be explained by increasing frustration at having all his plans thwarted by Hammer - Hammer has never lost one of their fights, so his spite is rooted in desire to be a bully.

Yes Hammer is a nasty piece of work, no argument here. But Horrible is a guy who plans to commit murder because he didn't get the girl. That is, I'm not even sure I have words for how disgustingly pathetic that is.
He has other reasons, but agreed that it's inexcusable.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-11, 09:42 AM

Sometimes, I think about Kira's memorable line...

I think you can't judge people by what they think or say...only by what they do

Nevermind what Capt Hammer thinks. Nevermind what he says. It's what he does that matters.

In the end, Capt Hammer helped the homeless. He stops crime. He helps the LAPD. Yhea, he's a jerk. Yhea, he does it just to get fame. Yhea, he's a bully.

But he still ended up doing good in this world. Why would his motivations matter? What's the real, down-to-earth difference between two benefactors, one do it because of the fame, the other does it because of genuine care?

Yhea, one will stand and stay when things get tough. But in the meanwhile, they both do good.

Dr Horrible might have had the best intention in the world, but he still ended up doing evil. On purpose.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-11, 09:49 AM

Gaius Marius

2011-05-11, 09:54 AM

He stops Dr. Horrible's crimes, at least. We don't really have any evidence that he goes after petty criminals, or really anyone except Horrible - and when he is stopping Horrible, he's remarkably cavalier about collateral damage (the van scene, for instance). Does it still count as doing good if you stop the villain from collecting his wonderflonium only if the out-of-control armored van you ignored runs over a bunch of pedestrians Carmageddon-style? Not that we know this happened, but if Hammer's attitude towards stopping Horrible is consistent with how he acts during the van heist, something similar would be very likely.

Except that when the van was actually going to hurt somebody, he stepped in on time to save the innocent.

Proof that he wants to avoid collateral damage. Yhea, he's careless, but he makes sure no one gets hurt out of his carelessness.

Plus, about people saying how "he should hand Horrible over to the Police", well, pray tell me what happens when Superman hands over Lex Luthor to the police, hmmm? Or when Metroman hands over Megamind?

Weezer

2011-05-11, 09:55 AM

Don't forget Hammer also killed Penny, accidentally of course, he didn't want the gun to explode, but it's just another example of the collateral damage he spreads when he "fights crime"

Dienekes

2011-05-11, 09:56 AM

One of Hammer's most important lines to Billy in that scene is "I get what you want." He wasn't just bragging about sleeping with Penny - it was about blocking Billy's advances and then rubbing it in his face. And while he's doing that, he makes it apparent that he doesn't really care that much about the girl.

Yeah that still seems like bragging about his own girlfriend to me. It's a jerk move mind you, but I've seen worse in high school.

He stops Dr. Horrible's crimes, at least. We don't really have any evidence that he goes after petty criminals, or really anyone except Horrible - and when he is stopping Horrible, he's remarkably cavalier about collateral damage (the van scene, for instance). Does it still count as doing good if you stop the villain from collecting his wonderflonium only if the out-of-control armored van you ignored runs over a bunch of pedestrians Carmageddon-style? Not that we know this happened, but if Hammer's attitude towards stopping Horrible is consistent with how he acts during the van heist, something similar would be very likely.

I still see that when the van did get close to hitting someone he threw himself in the way of the oncoming van.

Sure he is reckless, and fool hardy, but he at least tries to protect people. Selfishly, and as a bully mind you, but I'd rather have Hammer in my town than Dr. Horrible any day.

I'd personally prefer neither of them, until I actually looked at the statistics of how much damage/lives Hammer saves. Maybe he is beneficial, maybe he isn't.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-11, 09:56 AM

Don't forget Hammer also killed Penny, accidentally of course, he didn't want the gun to explode, but it's just another example of the collateral damage he spreads when he "fights crime"

Dr Horrible's Death Ray killed Penny.
a Death Ray he brought specifically to kill someone.

Yhea, Capt Hammer was a bit careless about "nor hearing your warning", but on the other hand, it's not like Dr Horrible proved trustworthy. Otherwise, Capt Hammer acted out of self-defense there.

RabbitHoleLost

2011-05-11, 09:59 AM

And IF Horrible and Billy are essentially different, Dr. Horrible is what Billy aspires to be. That's not a point in Billy's favor.

Well, of course. In the comic, we find that Billy aspired to become a villain because of a single incident, involving himself getting bullied while he played with his Justice Joe and Mister Maniacal (the respective Hero and Villain of his childhood) action figures. The bully quips something along the lines of a sarcastic "Einstein" remark, and then beats him up for lunch money he doesn't have because he brings his lunch.
Later, he's walking home from school when he just happens to walk past the real life counter parts of his action figures, and Justice Joe makes the same sarcastic remark, but, instead of getting himself beat up like Billy, Mister Maniacal overcame Justice Joe with his intelligence and science and killed the hero.

Now, as we all know, Billy spouts a lot of stuff about change and reform, especially earlier on in the movie. He finds killing inelegant, and he's frustrated with a system that idolizes bullies and jerks, and trods on the weak. Initially, though he is the "villain", he's almost a Robin Hood figure.
Yes, he wants to be Dr Horrible. He wants to be evil, and he wants a prominent position in the ELOL.
But there is still essentially that reluctance to really hurt people.
And, then, he bends his morals because, well, Captain Hammer's a jerk, and he hurts people (if only their feelings), and especially because Billy sees that Captain Hammer might be hurting Penny simply to hurt him.
Slowly, slowly, Billy starts to not exist, edged out by his villain alter ego... I'd even say Billy died when Penny did. (Do I need to spoiler that? I mean...I feel a bit like it'd be spoiling "I AM YOUR FATHER" in a SW thread...)

In anycase, I would argue that Billy himself isn't evil. Just the character he creates and eventually becomes.

He stops Dr. Horrible's crimes, at least. We don't really have any evidence that he goes after petty criminals, or really anyone except Horrible
In the comic, atleast, Captain Hammer is already a hero by the time Dr Horrible starts his evil, evil deeds (like blowing up the parking meters). Infact, Dr Horrible had picked Cpt Hammer out as his nemesis before he ever even did anything.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-11, 10:07 AM

But there is still essentially that reluctance to really hurt people.
And, then, he bends his morals because, well, Captain Hammer's a jerk, and he hurts people (if only their feelings), and especially because Billy sees that Captain Hammer might be hurting Penny simply to hurt him.
Slowly, slowly, Billy starts to not exist, edged out by his villain alter ego... I'd even say Billy died when Penny did.

No offense, but if Capt Hammer's damage is limited only to hurt people's feeling, he's doing pretty good. We elect politicians to do the exact same thing, after all.

RabbitHoleLost

2011-05-11, 10:13 AM

No offense, but if Capt Hammer's damage is limited only to hurt people's feeling, he's doing pretty good. We elect politicians to do the exact same thing, after all.
Yeah, but I've never known a Politician to sleep with someone just to upset their opposition.
And I'd rather not idolize a man who treats a woman as such.

Dienekes

2011-05-11, 10:13 AM

Well, of course. In the comic, we find that Billy aspired to become a villain because of a single incident, involving himself getting bullied while he played with his Justice Joe and Mister Maniacal (the respective Hero and Villain of his childhood) action figures. The bully quips something along the lines of a sarcastic "Einstein" remark, and then beats him up for lunch money he doesn't have because he brings his lunch.
Later, he's walking home from school when he just happens to walk past the real life counter parts of his action figures, and Justice Joe makes the same sarcastic remark, but, instead of getting himself beat up like Billy, Mister Maniacal overcame Justice Joe with his intelligence and science and killed the hero.

He get's beaten up, sees a murder then decides to be evil. How does that make me like him again? Heroes and villains quip to each other, just because someone uses the same joke doesn't automatically make him the same bully.

Now, as we all know, Billy spouts a lot of stuff about change and reform, especially earlier on in the movie. He finds killing inelegant, and he's frustrated with a system that idolizes bullies and jerks, and trods on the weak. Initially, though he is the "villain", he's almost a Robin Hood figure.
Yes, he wants to be Dr Horrible. He wants to be evil, and he wants a prominent position in the ELOL.

There's nothing Robin Hood about him. Robin Hood figures require doing something beneficial to the society. Billy talks the talk buy all we see him do is steal either money of technology. Neither of which would be used to help people. Billy is a man who thinks himself a Robin Hood figure without any of the moral backbone to be one.

But there is still essentially that reluctance to really hurt people.
And, then, he bends his morals because, well, Captain Hammer's a jerk, and he hurts people (if only their feelings), and especially because Billy sees that Captain Hammer might be hurting Penny simply to hurt him.

It takes two to tango. Penny was dating Captain Hammer as much as Hammer was dating Penny. Sure we know Hammer's a jerk. However, she's a human being with her own thoughts and feelings it's her responsibility to ditch the jerk, not her creepy stalkers responsibility to make her leave him, through murder.

Slowly, slowly, Billy starts to not exist, edged out by his villain alter ego... I'd even say Billy died when Penny did. (Do I need to spoiler that? I mean...I feel a bit like it'd be spoiling "I AM YOUR FATHER" in a SW thread...)

In anycase, I would argue that Billy himself isn't evil. Just the character he creates and eventually becomes.

Huh? A few problems here.
1) This transition takes place literally over the course of 1 song, so I don't see how it can be slowly.
2) the final scene obviously shows the return of the Billy personality so it does exist.
3) While I may find him a creep, there is no evidence that Billy has split personalities or anything. Whatever you do is who you are. There is no Billy and Dr. Horrible they are the same person, one with a funny costume Both their goals and actions are the same.
4) How can you rationalize "oh sure he may have tried to murder someone, was a thief, and seemed to idolize a murderer. But he wasn't evil." Billy is pathetic, but don't confuse that for innocence. He's evil.

In the comic, atleast, Captain Hammer is already a hero by the time Dr Horrible starts his evil, evil deeds (like blowing up the parking meters). Infact, Dr Horrible had picked Cpt Hammer out as his nemesis before he ever even did anything.

Well, I haven't read the comic. But jeez. Dr. Horrible is an idiot.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-11, 10:16 AM

Yeah, but I've never known a Politician to sleep with someone just to upset their opposition.
And I'd rather not idolize a man who treats a woman as such.

Some people suggested that it was Caesar's modus operandi to humilate his political ennemies... :smalltongue:

mangosta71

2011-05-11, 10:18 AM

Why would his motivations matter?
His motivations matter because they're the most interesting part of character analysis. Also, motivation is the difference between murder and negligent homicide. Finally, as (mostly) moral beings, we don't fully separate actions from intentions.

Plus, about people saying how "he should hand Horrible over to the Police", well, pray tell me what happens when Superman hands over Lex Luthor to the police, hmmm? Or when Metroman hands over Megamind?
Lex Luthor, even without all his little toys, is a famous megabillionaire and respected member of the community. Even if anyone would believe charges against him, he can bribe his way out of custody/justice. Billy has nothing even resembling those resources - if Hammer handed him over to the authorities, he'd rot in a cell.

RabbitHoleLost

2011-05-11, 10:20 AM

4) How can you rationalize "oh sure he may have tried to murder someone, was a thief, and seemed to idolize a murderer. But he wasn't evil." Billy is pathetic, but don't confuse that for innocence. He's evil.

Because the entire point/moral was about losing innocence in the pursuit of what you think you want? "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?" and all that business.
I'm not arguing Billy was good or a role model or something that should be admired. I'm arguing that he wasn't down to the core evil.
He was what he was supposed to be- a sympathetic villain to begin with, who, over the course of a 45 minute movie (hence it being "slowly") lost everything he thought was himself to become what he thought he wanted.
And what he lost was his "Billy"ness, to become Dr Horrible.

Thufir

2011-05-11, 10:21 AM

Ahh yes, his noble cause that all seem to just involve him at the top with no long term often conflicting plans.

Surely his not having conflicting plans isn't a bad thing?

Once the entire city was afraid of him he robs a bank and throws a party. Clearly, he was the greatest social worker with the city's best interest in mind.

I rather assumed that party was thrown for him, not by him.

Dienekes

2011-05-11, 10:29 AM

Because the entire point/moral was about losing innocence in the pursuit of what you think you want? "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?" and all that business.
I'm not arguing Billy was good or a role model or something that should be admired. I'm arguing that he wasn't down to the core evil.
He was what he was supposed to be- a sympathetic villain to begin with, who, over the course of a 45 minute movie (hence it being "slowly") lost everything he thought was himself to become what he thought he wanted.
And what he lost was his "Billy"ness, to become Dr Horrible.

People change over the course of their life. I am not the same person I was last year, nor the year before that. Billy changed over the course of this film. The Billy at the end is no less Billy than the Billy at the beginning. And that Billy is evil. Of course, if all it took to make him turn evil was a jerk and a job opportunity I wouldn't be putting much stock in the old Billy being too far from evil either.

Surely his not having conflicting plans isn't a bad thing?

A humbug to you and your need of me making grammatical sense. How about: his future plans seemed almost non-existent and what was shown are by their nature self defeating and conflicting.

Weezer

2011-05-11, 10:32 AM

Some people suggested that it was Caesar's modus operandi to humilate his political ennemies... :smalltongue:

And we all know how that ended up for him...

RabbitHoleLost

2011-05-11, 10:36 AM

People change over the course of their life. I am not the same person I was last year, nor the year before that. Billy changed over the course of this film. The Billy at the end is no less Billy than the Billy at the beginning. And that Billy is evil.
Well, without the floweryness and metaphoricalness of prose, yes, yes you can say that, essentially, that body was Billy in the beginning and is still the physical body of Billy at the end.
And of course Billy changed over the course of a movie- if a character doesn't change, they're called a static character, and those types of characters are usually frowned upon and don't make for good stories.
I can't say I'm the same person I was three years ago- infact, I've changed entirely. I didn't, you know, change my name and I didn't change the way I dressed and I didn't hide my eyes behind a set of welder's goggles, but I am not the same person, and I don't have the same morals. This, as you said, can be said of many people- everyone changes.
But not everyone changes in a way so drastic, over such a terrible event. And, you know, I'll even admit it was all Billy's fault. Penny's death was Billy's fault. And the fact that he loved her (even in a creepy stalker fashion), doesn't change that he did it.
But the fact that it happened, and the fact that he did it, changed who he was. And he embraced the change so entirely, he took on the name Dr Horrible entirely, changed his costume, and dropped everything that was Billy/his past life.
And that is what I meant by Dr Horrible and Billy being two different people.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-11, 10:43 AM

And we all know how that ended up for him...

That wasn't actually related to this modus operandi, so... no. :smalltongue:

Dienekes

2011-05-11, 10:57 AM

And we all know how that ended up for him...

Yeah, but the moral there is not never screw the opponent's wife, it's never show mercy. Something his successor took to heart apparently.

Well, without the floweryness and metaphoricalness of prose, yes, yes you can say that, essentially, that body was Billy in the beginning and is still the physical body of Billy at the end.
And of course Billy changed over the course of a movie- if a character doesn't change, they're called a static character, and those types of characters are usually frowned upon and don't make for good stories.
I can't say I'm the same person I was three years ago- infact, I've changed entirely. I didn't, you know, change my name and I didn't change the way I dressed and I didn't hide my eyes behind a set of welder's goggles, but I am not the same person, and I don't have the same morals. This, as you said, can be said of many people- everyone changes.
But not everyone changes in a way so drastic, over such a terrible event. And, you know, I'll even admit it was all Billy's fault. Penny's death was Billy's fault. And the fact that he loved her (even in a creepy stalker fashion), doesn't change that he did it.
But the fact that it happened, and the fact that he did it, changed who he was. And he embraced the change so entirely, he took on the name Dr Horrible entirely, changed his costume, and dropped everything that was Billy/his past life.
And that is what I meant by Dr Horrible and Billy being two different people.

Ahh sorry. I've been told (repeatedly) that I have no poetry in my soul. Floweryness and metaphoricalness is more or less a foreign language to me.

But he didn't drop everything that was Billy/his past life. He still had the same goals as he did at the beginning of the movie: Join the Evil League of Evil and get Penny. Even during his transformation song he sings about 2 things, being evil and getting Penny. It isn't until he accidentally kills Penny that the second goal is seen as finally outside his reach. And once he did succeed and join the Evil League of Evil he is shown celebrating and robbing banks with the only other figure from his earlier life outside of Penny: Moist. That and the final reveal clearly shows that Billy the non-villain is supposedly still there. In fact, for the first time Billy is presenting himself in his blog and not Dr. Horrible.

Tazar

2011-05-11, 11:17 AM

It's important to remember that the very last thing we see is a shot of Billy doing a final blog. He may be emotionally damaged and very close to lost, but he's not quite gone yet. He's just thrown himself fully into the Doctor Horrible persona to try and forget what he's done.

Mewtarthio

2011-05-11, 12:01 PM

No offense, but if Capt Hammer's damage is limited only to hurt people's feeling, he's doing pretty good.

He smacked Penny and sent her flying several yards into a trash heap, for one. He also threw a car at Dr. Horrible, who at the time had no intention of performing any violent crimes. Hey, I for one don't really care if a philanthropist only donates money to get a building named after him, but when your city is idolizing a guy who casually causes thousands of dollars of property damage and uses potentially lethal force against non-violent criminals, that's going to have some ramifications.

It takes two to tango. Penny was dating Captain Hammer as much as Hammer was dating Penny. Sure we know Hammer's a jerk. However, she's a human being with her own thoughts and feelings it's her responsibility to ditch the jerk, not her creepy stalkers responsibility to make her leave him, through murder.

Penny believed the same propaganda that everyone else was listening to. That being said, it's fairly clear she figures out the truth at some point during "Everyone's A Hero" and is planning to leave him.

Philistine

2011-05-11, 12:31 PM

On Billy's Horrible future plans:
Sad to say, I forgot a line from early in the show that I really should've remembered:
"The world's a mess, and I just need to... rule it."
Yeah... I'll take the status quo over that, thanks ever so much.

On Hammer "smacking" Penny onto the trash heap:
He moved her out of the way of a speeding, out-of-control vehicle, which is not a situation where you always have the luxury of being gentle. She also did not appear to be hurt - certainly she was sufficiently happy about events to make a date with Hammer.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-11, 12:46 PM

He smacked Penny and sent her flying several yards into a trash heap, for one. He also threw a car at Dr. Horrible, who at the time had no intention of performing any violent crimes.

What Phillistine said. He saved Penny's life, thank you very much. Next time you are in danger of death, I'll make sure you aren't inconvenienced too much by my saving attempts. Just tell me what your priority lies, from 0 to 10, between your personnal confort (at 0) and having your life saved (at 10).

And he sent her in the TRASH.. which, while humiating, is ALSO the safest place for her to land. If you had the choice, would you chose the trash or the wall?

And you have no idea what Dr Horrible's plan was when Capt Hammer threw a car at him.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-11, 12:50 PM

Even saving Penny is at best, neutral, because she wouldn't have been in danger of being hit in the first place if he hadn't sent the van out of control to begin with.

Dienekes

2011-05-11, 01:15 PM

Even saving Penny is at best, neutral, because she wouldn't have been in danger of being hit in the first place if he hadn't sent the van out of control to begin with.

Fair enough, but stopping a burglary (or attempting to) is good. I don't quite get the point of this though. Horrible tries to upset a working society, Hammer protects it. They're both fairly incompetent egomaniacs. Of the two, only Hammer actually did something that could be considered good. Protecting property and helping the homeless. However he's also a jerk who causes property damage. Probably his extreme actions cost the town less than Horrible's though (destroying gold bricks, and probably expensive science stuff).

Ultimately they're both part of the problem.

Kato

2011-05-11, 01:16 PM

And he sent her in the TRASH.. which, while humiating, is ALSO the safest place for her to land. If you had the choice, would you chose the trash or the wall?

Not that I'm completely disagreeing but how is TRASH the safest place to land? Trash can contain all kind of dangerous stuff.
That said, he certainly intended to help her but he didn't really care about her. He doesn't even wonder if she's fine afterwards IIRC.

But really, all this discussion about how good/bad Billy/Hammer is... ugh... why can't some people just enjoy a medium withput trying to pick it apart again and again and again.

Weezer

2011-05-11, 01:21 PM

But really, all this discussion about how good/bad Billy/Hammer is... ugh... why can't some people just enjoy a medium withput trying to pick it apart again and again and again.

Because somepeople, like me, enjoy analyzing and deconstructing things that we like watching? It's a part of the experience for me in much the same way that actually watching it is.

Mewtarthio

2011-05-11, 01:24 PM

And you have no idea what Dr Horrible's plan was when Capt Hammer threw a car at him.

Bad Horse doesn't send the ultimatum until after Horrible's plan fails. By that point, he still balks at the idea of killing someone. It's safe to assume the plan did not involve deaths.

Dienekes

2011-05-11, 01:37 PM

Not that I'm completely disagreeing but how is TRASH the safest place to land? Trash can contain all kind of dangerous stuff.
That said, he certainly intended to help her but he didn't really care about her. He doesn't even wonder if she's fine afterwards IIRC.

But really, all this discussion about how good/bad Billy/Hammer is... ugh... why can't some people just enjoy a medium withput trying to pick it apart again and again and again.

How else will we find the tick of it's heart?

That terrible attempt at a joke aside. Because it's fun. I like a good argument, I like Dr. Horrible. I like a good argument about Dr. Horrible. Well, I don't actually like Dr. Horrible, still think he's a fairly repulsive human specimen. But I like Dr. Horrible's Sing-a-long Blog.

ScionoftheVoid

2011-05-11, 02:23 PM

Tazar

2011-05-11, 02:35 PM

RE: Hammer-

Yes, Hammer is much more of a "good guy" than Horrible, because for all his stereotypical jock mentality, he's still ultimately fighting to prevent crime.

However, as mentioned, we have to at the same time consider the fact that he's acting outside the law as a vigilante and potentially killing people. He's had plenty of chances to turn Horrible in to the authorities; instead he just repeatedly beats on him, and then lets him get away so he can hit on a woman! That's not the actions of someone who gives any sort of a damn about upholding law and order, they're the actions of a man who views the city as his own personal playground.

You also get the impression that his "heroics" are mainly for the sake of getting women to sleep with him and general adulation rather than the fact that he actually cares about anything. If people would love him for robbing banks and destroying buildings, I have no doubt that he'd be doing that in half a second flat.

In terms of potential loss of life, I'd say Hammer (pre-"Everything You Ever") is actually much more of a danger than Horrible, who isn't a violent person at all. Hammer is.

Naturally, that all changes after the BFG explodes, however. While Billy/White Horrible might very likely never have taken a life, now that he's done it, however inadvertently, he's changed permanently.

Tyndmyr

2011-05-11, 02:50 PM

RE: Hammer-

Yes, Hammer is much more of a "good guy" than Horrible, because for all his stereotypical jock mentality, he's still ultimately fighting to prevent crime.

He happens to be fighting a criminal. He's not particularly into fighting crime as such.

Tazar

2011-05-11, 02:53 PM

He happens to be fighting a criminal. He's not particularly into fighting crime as such.

That's true of what we see in the film itself, but it seems to be heavily implied that he's got a past history of fighting crime (most likely superpowered crime).

mangosta71

2011-05-11, 02:55 PM

Tazar

2011-05-11, 03:10 PM

I'm actually not convinced that Penny would have stopped dating Hammer immediately. Recall her last words - "Captain Hammer will save us." She obviously still sees him as a hero. And how often do women leave guys in the real world just because they're jerks?

If anything, I think that her final words gave Billy a final shove over the edge. In his moment of triumph, when Penny was supposed to see that he's "not a joke, not a dork, not a failure", she was calling out for his nemesis to come save her.

She sees him as a hero, yes, but as a boyfriend? I kind of doubt it.

She was pretty lukewarm towards him in "So They Say", and she was clearly pretty shocked by his utter disregard for the homeless in "Everyone's A Hero".

Granted, I don't think she would have left Hammer for Billy, but I think she would not have stayed with him given his blatant lack of care for the plight of the homeless. She said that because she was in shock and dying.

Dienekes

2011-05-11, 03:59 PM

Personally, I feel Dr Horrible is a more sympathetic figure than Hammer until after Penny's death. Until that point, his morals prevented him from using lethal force even when he tried to. He tried to destabilise society because he thought that the current social environment was awful. Sure, he's creepy, but he's not dangerous until after the death of the one person who actually cared about him.

Hammer, on the other hand, is perfectly willing to use lethal force (throwing a car at the Doctor's head, strangling him before being distracted by Penny - judging by his habit of bullying Horrible instead of turning him over to the authorities "It's curtains for you" did not mean imprisonment), treats women as objects, has little concern for innocents and no concern for property and deliberately ruins a man's life for amusement and publicity. He may have had the more positive effect, but only because he was ruthless enough to succeed against a non-superpowered opponent who uses exclusively non-lethal weaponry. If Billy had succeeded with Penny he probably would have given up his Horrible persona to do so (and with Penny's actions in So They Say and Everyone's A Hero she may well have dumped the Captain for him), putting support behind Penny's methods instead of risking a relationship with "the girl of his dreams". If Horrible had succeeded without Penny's death he may have kept his previous morals and more or less let Penny decide just how far he should go (or he could have completely destabilised society without actually making it any better and work with Penny to rebuild with a less - or at least differently - discriminatory social environment).

Interestingly, I'd argue that the evidence shows that Hammer doesn't use lethal force, or at least not often. Sure he threw a car at Horrible, but Horrible still made it out completely unscathed. It also brings into question every other conflict they've had. If Hammer was able to throw a car, and he wanted to kill Dr. Horrible, Horrible would be in a body bag. But he does release Billy from a choke, maybe he was distracted maybe he just released him again because he'd won. I have a feeling that is what he does, he finds a villain kicks his arse here to sunday and then let's him go so he can play the hero again. It isn't until Dr. Horrible actually tries to kill him that Hammer really tries to kill him back.

As for the "if only Penny had chosen Billy then he'd turn from his wicked ways and they'd all live happily with flowers and kittens" mentality, well I have to disagree with that. Billy's notion of wooing Penny was solely through being an evil genius. How to win her heart? Kill her current boyfriend. How to make her stop crying after killing her boyfriend? Give her Australia. Then she'll love him.

To me this shows a fundamental lack of knowledge on human interaction and understanding people, particularly those like Penny. In short, I don't think he could eventually woo her. I also don't think either he or Penny is smart enough to rebuild society after he destroys it. And since once more, there doesn't seem to really be anything wrong with the world as presented and he claims very early on his goal is to rule it. I really see no societal benefits of letting him get anywhere near power.

However, Hammer pushes Horrible too far, and Penny dies. And while his goals hadn't changed up to this point (though the priority was no doubt being reconsidered "All the cash, all the fame/ And social change") they do after her death. We see no evidence that Red Horrible (including the bank heist, I'm just using it as shorthand for post-Penny's-death-Dr Horrible, not reffering to the literal costume change) follows up on any of Billy's ideas. Billy's wanting to change the world was at least in part inspired by Penny, and with her death leaving him empty as well as leaving Dr Horrible with vast power and influence and all meaningful opposition (that we know of) gone, it was washed away. Dr Horrible at least tried to change the world from the worse - if not guaranteed to the better - while Red Horrible is out for himself, and doesn't neccessarily have any of Dr Horrible's distaste for violence. Red Horrible is a true member of the ELE, Dr Horrible only got in by accident and never could have gotten taken seriously if he'd lasted long enough to take his place.

It's hard to follow up on ideas when there were no ideas to begin with. Seriously his views on changing the world are "I rule it" "but it's gonna be anarchy" "society will be changed, because I rule it."

Also how was him wanting to change the world inspired by Penny exactly? He's been proclaiming his notions that "the world is a mess, and I just have to rule it" and his desire to "upset the status quo, because the status is not quo" before we even learn of Penny's social minded nature. I'd argue that Dr. Horrible is always out for himself. His desires are plainly stated repeatedly, he wants to rule the world. Sure he has some belief that the world is messed up and his rule will be better (what megalomaniac doesn't?) but he is unable throughout the entire show to give a single real reason why society is messed up.

Kato

2011-05-11, 06:05 PM

That terrible attempt at a joke aside. Because it's fun. I like a good argument, I like Dr. Horrible. I like a good argument about Dr. Horrible. Well, I don't actually like Dr. Horrible, still think he's a fairly repulsive human specimen. But I like Dr. Horrible's Sing-a-long Blog.

Yeah. I get that. But I feel like it's been done to death. On this forum as well. Okay, I guess that's just my opinion and none of you were spectators last time it happened so you may still have your share of doing so... Sorry to interrupt.

Flickerdart

2011-05-11, 07:36 PM

Horrible's red outfit really reminds me of the Engineer. Heavy gloves? Check. Goggles? Check. Mad science? Check. Red? Check.

Thufir

2011-05-11, 08:11 PM

Plus, about people saying how "he should hand Horrible over to the Police", well, pray tell me what happens when Superman hands over Lex Luthor to the police, hmmm? Or when Metroman hands over Megamind?

I'm guessing they escape. But this is not really a justification for just letting them go.

Interestingly, I'd argue that the evidence shows that Hammer doesn't use lethal force, or at least not often. Sure he threw a car at Horrible, but Horrible still made it out completely unscathed. It also brings into question every other conflict they've had. If Hammer was able to throw a car, and he wanted to kill Dr. Horrible, Horrible would be in a body bag. But he does release Billy from a choke, maybe he was distracted maybe he just released him again because he'd won. I have a feeling that is what he does, he finds a villain kicks his arse here to sunday and then let's him go so he can play the hero again. It isn't until Dr. Horrible actually tries to kill him that Hammer really tries to kill him back.

You may well be right, but with Captain Hammer's level of strength, it's entirely possible he could kill someone by accident. Yes, Horrible escaped the car-thrown-at-head mostly unscathed, but that's not exactly guaranteed, and a car to the head would be seriously debilitating at least, if not actually lethal.

Tazar

2011-05-11, 08:18 PM

Except that when the van was actually going to hurt somebody, he stepped in on time to save the innocent.

Proof that he wants to avoid collateral damage. Yhea, he's careless, but he makes sure no one gets hurt out of his carelessness.

Plus, about people saying how "he should hand Horrible over to the Police", well, pray tell me what happens when Superman hands over Lex Luthor to the police, hmmm? Or when Metroman hands over Megamind?

Dr. Horrible is not Lex Luthor.

You throw him in a jail cell with no tech and he's stuck there. Who's gonna break him out, Moist?

In any case, even if he could break out easily, that doesn't give Captain Hammer the right to take matters into his own hands. Police officers don't have license to break the legs of gangsters they know are criminals but won't be able to make a court case against.

The law is the law.

Dr.Epic

2011-05-11, 08:23 PM

Dr. Horrible is not Lex Luthor.

You're right about that. Dr. Horrible is way more awesome than Lex Luthor.

Jahkaivah

2011-05-11, 08:32 PM

You're right about that. Dr. Horrible is way more awesome than Lex Luthor.

How many cakes did Dr Horrible steal?

Radar

2011-05-12, 03:38 AM

How many cakes did Dr Horrible steal?
None. He learned the hard way, that there was no cake to begin with. :smalltongue:

Dr.Epic

2011-05-12, 05:08 AM

How many cakes did Dr Horrible steal?

He did the impossible. He stole the scene from Nathan Fillion.

ScionoftheVoid

2011-05-12, 05:42 AM

Interestingly, I'd argue that the evidence shows that Hammer doesn't use lethal force, or at least not often. Sure he threw a car at Horrible, but Horrible still made it out completely unscathed. It also brings into question every other conflict they've had. If Hammer was able to throw a car, and he wanted to kill Dr. Horrible, Horrible would be in a body bag. But he does release Billy from a choke, maybe he was distracted maybe he just released him again because he'd won. I have a feeling that is what he does, he finds a villain kicks his arse here to sunday and then let's him go so he can play the hero again. It isn't until Dr. Horrible actually tries to kill him that Hammer really tries to kill him back.

Maybe, but Hammer also has to keep up appearances (he stopped strangling as soon as someone was there to see it, for example) which was all that was stopping him. You do not throw a car at someone if you don't wannt to use lethal force. If Hammer had killed Horrible then he'd be out of a punching bag for a while, but a new villain would probably turn up at some point. Hammer tries to keep Horrible alive in the same way a child tries not to break a toy, if he does it he might get scolded and have to be bored but it'll be forgotten and a new toy will come along later.

Also, using lethal force at all is still worse than anything Dr Horrible did (until Hammer pushed him whilst he'd already been told he could only achieve one of his highest priority goals by killing someone). Notice that Horrible had to build his death ray by modifying a stun ray, he didn't just have a lethal setting on an existing weapon or have a lethal weapon just in case.

As for the "if only Penny had chosen Billy then he'd turn from his wicked ways and they'd all live happily with flowers and kittens" mentality, well I have to disagree with that. Billy's notion of wooing Penny was solely through being an evil genius. How to win her heart? Kill her current boyfriend. How to make her stop crying after killing her boyfriend? Give her Australia. Then she'll love him.

To me this shows a fundamental lack of knowledge on human interaction and understanding people, particularly those like Penny. In short, I don't think he could eventually woo her. I also don't think either he or Penny is smart enough to rebuild society after he destroys it. And since once more, there doesn't seem to really be anything wrong with the world as presented and he claims very early on his goal is to rule it. I really see no societal benefits of letting him get anywhere near power.

Billy has an awful lot of conflict between his ideals and Horrible's desires, so Penny choosing him could tip him over to the ideals side of things and have him throw away the Horrible persona. Or it could force him to keep his being Horrible a secret, making sure he sticks to his current low profille stuff. I doubt he'd have gotten to be Red Horrible if he'd gone to Penny during So They Say instead of forging on with his death ray, watched Hammer make a fool of himself in front of her in Everyone's A Hero and continued as her friend until he could build up the courage to ask her out after she dumps a man who is (after that song) so obviously self-serving and who likes her even less than she liked him (listen to So They Say and tell me that she's enjoying their relationship more than Billy's friendship).

Also, Billy is socially awkward and unaware, but Hammer isn't much better in that regard, Hammer just fakes it better. And he doesn't think killing her boyfriend will get him Penny, he thinks that she'll be single after he kills his nemesis to get into the ELE after said nemesis has revealed that he's only with Penny to mess with Horrible, allowing him to ask her out at his own pace (which could fairly well line up with when she gets over Hammer's death). Even if that is what he thinks it wouldn't be likely to take him to Red Horrible levels of evil, it would probably encourage him to turn it down and do things her way ("Psyche, I love it!" suggests he'd be happy to). And he says he'd give her Australia to comfort her immediately after his nemesis has just pushed him to the point where he's willing to do murder (or so he thinks), I doubt he was thinking straight at that point. If he were thinking straight he'd probably realise that Penny would prefer his helping people to a large landmass of her very own, he just thought of something he wanted.

And even if everything does go wrong he's likely to at least try to pick up the pieces rather than just shrugging and carrying on, particularly if Penny talked to him about it. They may not be able to fix the world themselves, but Penny could probably convince Horrible to stand back and let the people who know what they're doing fix it (though Horrible would probably be watching fairly closely to make sure that none of Hammer's level of anti-intellectualism slips into this new world order). Horrible by himself would probably just try to fix it himself, screw it up horribly (hat hat hat) and settle for nudging the resulting chaos away from anti-intellectualism. On the other hand, I don't want to say that Horrible wouldn't screw up the world (he probably would, looking at his known track record for small-scale things), I was trying to say that if it got to the point he was able to do so it was Hammer's fault. Well, actually I wasn't, but I've forgotten what I did mean to say and that's as good a point as any.

It's hard to follow up on ideas when there were no ideas to begin with. Seriously his views on changing the world are "I rule it" "but it's gonna be anarchy" "society will be changed, because I rule it."

He's definitely opposed to anti-intellectualism (at least on a Captain Hammer scale, who believes all intelligent people should be observed carefully as suspected future villains), but beyond that he doesn't apparently have a plan for society while he rules it. His only goals are to make it different and to make Penny happy (which would be where things are actually changed for the better), with ruling the world being means to an end (for Billy, Horrible's end goal is ruling the world being able to do what he likes - Red Horrible is basically what Horrible wants to be and what Billy wants to keep in check for Penny's sake).

Also how was him wanting to change the world inspired by Penny exactly? He's been proclaiming his notions that "the world is a mess, and I just have to rule it" and his desire to "upset the status quo, because the status is not quo" before we even learn of Penny's social minded nature. I'd argue that Dr. Horrible is always out for himself. His desires are plainly stated repeatedly, he wants to rule the world. Sure he has some belief that the world is messed up and his rule will be better (what megalomaniac doesn't?) but he is unable throughout the entire show to give a single real reason why society is messed up.

Before we learn of it, but with him almost stalking her (he doesn't go out of his way to see her except when she's on a date with Hammer, otherwise he's just oppotunistic - in the case of the photograph - or arranges things he'd have to do anyway around her, which isn't so much outright stalking as just really creepy) it's not a stretch to say that he knows she's into changing the world. Horrible may want to rule the world as an end in itself, but Billy wants to use that as a means to making Penny love him (which is not the best way to go about it, but he doesn't know that) and is terribly conflicted because of that. He needs money and power but can't admit to himself that some part of him wants them. When Dr Horrible is more in control he adds changing the world on as an afterthought (Slipping being the perfect example), when it's Billy on his blog he puts changing the world first ("It's not about making money; it's about taking money" "the world is a mess and I just need to rule it").

If Penny inspired most of his changing the world ideas then there's a reason he doesn't give evidence of how the world is bad. He believes it's bad for selfish reasons (combine the base desires from Horrible (giving rise to "I should be more powerful" and "I should be more wealthy") with general "the world sucks" thoughts from Billy and you get most of his actual reasons for wanting to change the world) which he avoids giving and leaves Penny to tell him what's wrong with the world in her view. He doesn't say why the world is bad because he doesn't really know beyond a very vague sense that it could and should be better.

This is, of course, just what I got from it twisted a bit to fit my points, but the evidence is in there (with a bit from the comics, which I have not read but have heard of key points from - notably Hammer's "smart kids are potential villains and should be treated as such" rant).

Thufir

2011-05-12, 08:49 AM

He did the impossible. He stole the scene from Nathan Fillion.

I think Fillion himself would have something to say about that.

I'm better,
Better the Neil...

Gaius Marius

2011-05-12, 09:03 AM

He did the impossible. He stole the scene from Nathan Fillion.

Bad Horse is still the single most awesome character of the whole show.

And I shall trample to death anyone who argue this fact... :smallamused:

Edit: I meant Ghandi

Dienekes

2011-05-12, 09:20 AM

Maybe, but Hammer also has to keep up appearances (he stopped strangling as soon as someone was there to see it, for example) which was all that was stopping him. You do not throw a car at someone if you don't wannt to use lethal force. If Hammer had killed Horrible then he'd be out of a punching bag for a while, but a new villain would probably turn up at some point. Hammer tries to keep Horrible alive in the same way a child tries not to break a toy, if he does it he might get scolded and have to be bored but it'll be forgotten and a new toy will come along later.

Nope, when Penny got up to watch he still choked Horrible, and beat his head against a van for good measure. His appearance survived that bit of brutality. He then releases Dr. Horrible when he thinks he can sweep a girl off her feet. As to the throwing of a car, it could have been an attempt to intimidate, or simply he wasn't thinking (he doesn't seem to use his brain often). But at the end of the day, we don't know how it went down so further speculation is pointless.

Also, using lethal force at all is still worse than anything Dr Horrible did (until Hammer pushed him whilst he'd already been told he could only achieve one of his highest priority goals by killing someone). Notice that Horrible had to build his death ray by modifying a stun ray, he didn't just have a lethal setting on an existing weapon or have a lethal weapon just in case.

Did Hammer force Dr. Horrible to make a death ray? No. That was Billy. Sure he was a jerk, but being a jerk does not mean that someone gets a pass for trying to kill someone.

Billy has an awful lot of conflict between his ideals and Horrible's desires, so Penny choosing him could tip him over to the ideals side of things and have him throw away the Horrible persona. Or it could force him to keep his being Horrible a secret, making sure he sticks to his current low profille stuff. I doubt he'd have gotten to be Red Horrible if he'd gone to Penny during So They Say instead of forging on with his death ray, watched Hammer make a fool of himself in front of her in Everyone's A Hero and continued as her friend until he could build up the courage to ask her out after she dumps a man who is (after that song) so obviously self-serving and who likes her even less than she liked him (listen to So They Say and tell me that she's enjoying their relationship more than Billy's friendship).

What ideals? All we know of Billy's ideals is that he wants Penny. In fact once more this separation of Billy and Dr. Horrible makes no sense. When Billy meets with Penny for the first time all he talks about is cutting off the head of the human race. The rest of his grand plans for the future all nonsensical rantings of a megalomaniac. Maybe he didn't want to kill in the beginning but it didn't take a whole lot to make him throw away his morals.

It doesn't matter if Penny was into the relationship or not. If a guy plans to commit murder because someone stole his not a girlfriend.

Also, Billy is socially awkward and unaware, but Hammer isn't much better in that regard, Hammer just fakes it better.

No argument there.

And he doesn't think killing her boyfriend will get him Penny, he thinks that she'll be single after he kills his nemesis to get into the ELE after said nemesis has revealed that he's only with Penny to mess with Horrible,

Doesn't hold water. He was already dating Penny before he knew Billy was Dr. Horrible. He was just rubbing his success in Billy's face.

allowing him to ask her out at his own pace (which could fairly well line up with when she gets over Hammer's death).

"she may cry but her tears may dry when I hand her the keys to a shiny new Australia." He thinks he can bribe the love out of her and woo her with villainy and injustice. Those two are not going to go together.

Even if that is what he thinks it wouldn't be likely to take him to Red Horrible levels of evil, it would probably encourage him to turn it down and do things her way ("Psyche, I love it!" suggests he'd be happy to). And he says he'd give her Australia to comfort her immediately after his nemesis has just pushed him to the point where he's willing to do murder (or so he thinks), I doubt he was thinking straight at that point. If he were thinking straight he'd probably realise that Penny would prefer his helping people to a large landmass of her very own, he just thought of something he wanted.

Penny's not the smartest gal in the world. But even she was able to hone in on Hammer's dickishness at the end. I'm willing to bet that she'd be able to sniff out that Billy was a villain after not too long. Wait so the one piece of evidence that we have on his views of wooing her (giving her Australia) is being nixed because he wasn't thinking straight. But where does the he'll woo her on her own time once she's gotten over Hammer even come from? All evidence points to Horrible not understanding how people and Penny work. I just don't see where that jump in personality comes from.

And even if everything does go wrong he's likely to at least try to pick up the pieces rather than just shrugging and carrying on, particularly if Penny talked to him about it. They may not be able to fix the world themselves, but Penny could probably convince Horrible to stand back and let the people who know what they're doing fix it (though Horrible would probably be watching fairly closely to make sure that none of Hammer's level of anti-intellectualism slips into this new world order).

Great so in this plan societal growth is guided by the potential murderer, stalker, megalomaniac. And you don't have a problem with this?

And anti-intellectualism isn't evil. I may think it's wrong, I may think it's misguided but it's not an evil. Someone just doesn't get to decide that a personality trait needs to be stomped out.

Horrible by himself would probably just try to fix it himself, screw it up horribly (hat hat hat) and settle for nudging the resulting chaos away from anti-intellectualism. On the other hand, I don't want to say that Horrible wouldn't screw up the world (he probably would, looking at his known track record for small-scale things), I was trying to say that if it got to the point he was able to do so it was Hammer's fault. Well, actually I wasn't, but I've forgotten what I did mean to say and that's as good a point as any.

Wasn't Hammer's fault. We agree on that at least.

He's definitely opposed to anti-intellectualism (at least on a Captain Hammer scale, who believes all intelligent people should be observed carefully as suspected future villains), but beyond that he doesn't apparently have a plan for society while he rules it. His only goals are to make it different and to make Penny happy (which would be where things are actually changed for the better), with ruling the world being means to an end (for Billy, Horrible's end goal is ruling the world being able to do what he likes - Red Horrible is basically what Horrible wants to be and what Billy wants to keep in check for Penny's sake).

Never once do his goals in the future seem to correlate with making Penny happy. They tend to portray him with Penny, but those are not mutually inclusive. In fact I'm willing to bet him ruling the world would by definition make Penny not happy. But admittedly that is just my interpretation of the character.

Before we learn of it, but with him almost stalking her (he doesn't go out of his way to see her except when she's on a date with Hammer, otherwise he's just oppotunistic - in the case of the photograph - or arranges things he'd have to do anyway around her, which isn't so much outright stalking as just really creepy) it's not a stretch to say that he knows she's into changing the world. Horrible may want to rule the world as an end in itself, but Billy wants to use that as a means to making Penny love him (which is not the best way to go about it, but he doesn't know that) and is terribly conflicted because of that.

Again, Dr. Horrible is Billy. Where do we get to say that one's personality starts and the other ends? When he's on his blog in costume he still moons over her (Laundry Day song). When he's out of costume he still lets his views on society creep through (I want to be an achiever like Bad Horse, and the aforementioned cutting off the head of the human race.).

He needs money and power but can't admit to himself that some part of him wants them. When Dr Horrible is more in control he adds changing the world on as an afterthought (Slipping being the perfect example), when it's Billy on his blog he puts changing the world first ("It's not about making money; it's about taking money" "the world is a mess and I just need to rule it").

Ehh, I've never put much stock in the order he says things really means all too much (but that may just be me). The evidence from the beginning to the end shows that he wants to rule the world, values money a lot, wishes to be well known and feared, and also change the world in some way. Only difference is at the end he actually buckles down into real villainy to achieve his goals.

Bad Horse is still the single most awesome character of the whole show.

This is the truth, all who oppose it are by definition wrong.

Mewtarthio

2011-05-12, 09:53 AM

If Penny inspired most of his changing the world ideas

She didn't. "Freeze Ray" sums up their entire not-relationship before the show starts. All he knew about Penny before she came up to him with that petition was what kind of underwear she wore. He's not trying to take over the world to prove himself to Penny or anything like that. Supervillainy is his career, Penny is that cute girl at the laundromat, and the two are in completely separate spheres of his life before Hammer starts dating her.

Doesn't hold water. He was already dating Penny before he knew Billy was Dr. Horrible. He was just rubbing his success in Billy's face.

He follows Horrible's blog, so he knows who Billy is. He may not have known who Penny was when he first picked her up, but I'm willing to bet he figured it out before meeting Billy in the laundromat. Remember, he usually just has a one-night stand with a girl ("I just might sleep with the same girl twice! / They say it's better the second time; / They say you get to do the weird stuff!"); something convinced him to stick with Penny a little longer, and it's not genuine affection.

Tazar

2011-05-12, 09:58 AM

The reason he stuck with Penny is because of all the adulation he was getting for helping the homeless, as indicated by "So They Say".
Captain Hammer's all about his image, and staying with Penny improved his image. That's why he didn't move on immediately.

On a less argumentative note, what are your guys' favorite songs? "My Eyes" would have to be mine; the duet is just absolutely phenomenal.

"Slipping" runs a close second, as its chorus is absolutely awesome.

Re: Bad Horse-I was pretty surprised he was an actual horse. I mean, with the cowboy theme I was expecting something weird, but not an actual horse. That was great.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-12, 09:59 AM

He follows Horrible's blog, so he knows who Billy is. He may not have known who Penny was when he first picked her up, but I'm willing to bet he figured it out before meeting Billy in the laundromat. Remember, he usually just has a one-night stand with a girl ("I just might sleep with the same girl twice! / They say it's better the second time; / They say you get to do the weird stuff!"); something convinced him to stick with Penny a little longer, and it's not genuine affection.

Pretty much. When Dr Horrible did mentionned that "Capt Hammer met the girl of my dream". Even the Captain is clever ennough to put 2 and 2 together.

I wanted to see the Hamjet.

...

(The hamjet is NOT his penis)

Dienekes

2011-05-12, 10:16 AM

He follows Horrible's blog, so he knows who Billy is. He may not have known who Penny was when he first picked her up, but I'm willing to bet he figured it out before meeting Billy in the laundromat. Remember, he usually just has a one-night stand with a girl ("I just might sleep with the same girl twice! / They say it's better the second time; / They say you get to do the weird stuff!"); something convinced him to stick with Penny a little longer, and it's not genuine affection.

Wow I never put this together. I just figured he thought it was genuine affection.

Favorite songs? Brand New Day, Bad Horse, Everyone's a Hero, Better Than Neil, and Zack's Flavor.

Keld Denar

2011-05-12, 10:32 AM

Slipping is my favorite, followed probably by Freeze Ray.

I love the line in Slipping where you don't know if he's saying "sheep'll", as in sheep will, or "sheeple", a combination of people and sheep, insinuating that people are sheep. Both fit. I guess I could look up the lyrics, but I prefer to keep it this way.

And I like the chorus of Freeze Ray. Maybe its just the cadence, but its catchy to me.

"With my freeze ray I will...stop time..."

Gaius Marius

2011-05-12, 10:49 AM

I love Penny's song. It's a very short 4 lines of pure Woobie Incarnate...

"You only have to put your name/You don't even have to read it"

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Mewtarthio

2011-05-12, 10:56 AM

"My Eyes," by far. Great duet, great juxtaposition of Penny's idealism and Horrible's cynicism, great background gags, just an all-around great song.

kpenguin

2011-05-12, 11:22 AM

"My Eyes" is my favorite from the musical itself, while "Better than Neil" is my favorite from the commentary.

Weezer

2011-05-12, 12:07 PM

My favorites are Brand New Day and Slipping, they're just so dark and convey Dr. Horrible's downward spiral very well.

Xondoure

2011-05-12, 12:49 PM

Slipping, and Everything you ever. My eyes on my first watch, but those two have held up to multiple viewings the best. Neil Patrick Harris is very good at bringing out Horrible's emotional turmoil.

Joran

2011-05-12, 02:25 PM

Gaius Marius

2011-05-12, 02:28 PM

Yes, Slipping is my favorite of them all.

As an Asian-American, I really liked "Nobody's Asian in the Movies" sung by Maurissa Tancharoen (the Asian Whedon and wife of Jed).

Also, for terrible, terrible reasons, I laughed at Steve's Song, where they constantly gave the person with a lisp a song with tons of 's'.

Totally agree. Too bad there aren't more asians in fiction that aren't there just because they gotta fill an asian stereotype...

On the other hand, Grace Park was awesome and uber-sexy in Battlestar Galactica... :smallbiggrin:

Tirian

2011-05-12, 02:48 PM

I love the line in Slipping where you don't know if he's saying "sheep'll", as in sheep will, or "sheeple", a combination of people and sheep, insinuating that people are sheep. Both fit. I guess I could look up the lyrics, but I prefer to keep it this way.

Look at these people
Amazing how sheep'll
Show up to the slaughter

It is a delightfully tortured rhyme that reminds one of Tom Lehrer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frAEmhqdLFs).

Anyway, there is no doubt that My Eyes is the best song in the musical, but thanks to everyone else for playing! :smalltongue:

Kairaven

2011-05-12, 02:49 PM

my fave is "So They Say" it's just such an upbeat tune that fills in the general view of the Horrible-verse.

Followed by "My Freeze Ray" which was the song that introduced me to Dr. Horrible

Dr.Epic

2011-05-12, 04:21 PM

Bad Horse is still the single most awesome character of the whole show.

And I shall trample to death anyone who argue this fact... :smallamused:

Edit: I meant Ghandi

You mean that character absent pretty much the entire time, makes a brief cameo at the end, and doesn't do anything?

Tazar

2011-05-12, 04:25 PM

You mean that character absent pretty much the entire time, makes a brief cameo at the end, and doesn't do anything?

On the other hand, he's the most nefarious supervillain in the entire world, and as far as we can tell his superpower is being a horse.

That's a really bad horse.

Dr.Epic

2011-05-12, 04:26 PM

On the other hand, he's the most nefarious supervillain in the entire world, and as far as we can tell his superpower is being a horse.

That's a really bad horse.

Yeah, it's so great when a movie has to tell you something rather show you. Wait...

Tazar

2011-05-12, 04:37 PM

Yeah, it's so great when a movie has to tell you something rather show you. Wait...

:smallconfused:

I thought the premise and execution behind Bad Horse was fantastic, personally. His reveal was one of the funniest moments of the entire thing.

Plus, you can tell he's a pretty bad dude just by the Bad Horse Chorus.

Gaius Marius

2011-05-12, 04:54 PM

You mean that character absent pretty much the entire time, makes a brief cameo at the end, and doesn't do anything?

Wow... fail.

You missed the entire point of this movie, did you?

Mystic Muse

2011-05-12, 04:59 PM

Wow... fail.

You missed the entire point of this movie, did you?

Which would be extremely Ironic considering his username and avatar

Dr.Epic

2011-05-12, 04:59 PM

Wow... fail.

You missed the entire point of this movie, did you?

Um, no.

I thought the character was funny, but how does a horse with 3 seconds of screen time come off as a deadly threat?

Gaius Marius

2011-05-12, 05:03 PM

Um, no.

Yes, here is the proof:

I thought the character was funny, but how does a horse with 3 seconds of screen time come off as a deadly threat?

Ain't it obvious?

VanBuren

2011-05-12, 05:11 PM

I'm still trying to work out how you can rationalize throwing a car at somebody without superpowers as "non-lethal force". That's about as sensical as shooting to "not kill".

Selrahc

2011-05-12, 05:24 PM

That's about as sensical as shooting to "not kill".

Uh... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_to_wound)

Also, sensical?

Weezer

2011-05-12, 05:25 PM

Also, sensical?

As in the opposite of nonsensical.

VanBuren

2011-05-12, 05:26 PM

Uh... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_to_wound)

Did you read the link you posted? It's far from an accepted concept. In fact, one of the prime rules of gun safety is that you never shoot unless you're willing to kill.

Selrahc

2011-05-12, 05:31 PM

As in the opposite of nonsensical.

Well yeah, but is there a point in using it rather than sensible?
Mainly questioned it due to the character limit though.

Did you read the link you posted? It's far from an accepted concept. In fact, one of the prime rules of gun safety is that you never shoot unless you're willing to kill.

So your position is that because shooting to wound is a controversial idea, nobody could ever use a potentially lethal weapon in a way intended to be non-lethal?

Philistine

2011-05-12, 05:31 PM

Walls o' Text.

Jeez. Over-identify much? The term is Villain Protagonist. Look it up. Seriously. Go on, we'll wait.

Back? Okay, good. The thing is, y'see, Billy is the protagonist of the show. The story is told from his point of view, and it's very deliberately crafted to make him seem as sympathetic (and make his antagonist as unsympathetic) as possible. This was fully intended by the creators - audiences don't identify with unrelatable protagonists, and the result is bad art - and they succeeded admirably. Casting NPH in the title role helped a lot with that, naturally. In fact, it appears that the creators succeeded a bit too well in making their Villain Protagonist relatable: despite a similarly determined effort by the creators to make Dr. Horrible also a credible villain, a few people clearly managed to miss the memo on that.

That's kind of amazing, really. Even on his very best day, Billy is a creepy stalker. The guy memorized Penny's laundry schedule; the one photo he has of her is a stalkershot obviously taken through foliage; and of course he spends the bulk of "My Eyes" following Penny and Hammer around on their date(s). This dude is NOT okay, even before he decides to commit premeditated, first-degree murder out of sexual jealousy.

He's also unambiguously Evil. His grand ambition is to disrupt society so much that he can crawl to the top of the pile. "That's the plan, rule the world" - sound horribly familiar to you? How about "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it," does that ring any bells? Now, keeping that in mind, let's take a minute and contemplate the consequences if Billy's plan ever succeeded. Modern civilization is incredibly interconnected and interdependent; wrecking the system, which is Billy's stated goal, would result in mass deaths on a scale unprecedented in human history. The breakdown in food production and distribution alone would be catastrophic, even without the violence and plagues that would inevitably follow - this is a recipe for millions, and more likely billions, of deaths. (And yet you're going to kvetch about Hammer using potentially - but not actually - lethal force to keep this plan derailed? Pfaugh.)

And what's it all for? Billy's not an idealist - he'd have to have ideals to qualify, and he doesn't. He's not desperately trying to protect anyone from anything. He's not ignorant of the consequences of his actions - any dolt with half a brain could figure out the effects of smashing the system, and in fact he's not just aware of but counting on those effects to enable his subsequent rise to power. And it can't be that he doesn't know better, because if he really didn't know any better he wouldn't be so conflicted. Nope, none of that stuff. Nothing like any of that stuff. Billy does evil of his own free will, by his own choice.

As for the idea of Billy and Penny ending up together - Ha. Ha Ha, even. Billy's plan for wooing Penny, first expressed way back in "My Freeze Ray," is to continue to stalk her until he can impress her with how Evil he is. Yeah, I see that working out well. But even if they did somehow hook up... Penny ain't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed (Look how long it took her to figure out that Hammer is basically a high-functioning sociopath!), but on the other hand Billy was barely able to keep his Secret Evil Identity under wraps during three-minutes of casual conversation at the laundromat (and that due more to Penny's obliviousness than to any cleverness on Billy's part) - so why on Earth would anyone ever think he'd be able to hide it over the course of a longer and much closer relationship? So. Take Hammer out of the picture, and let Billy take his very best shot, without any outside pressure. Nine chances out of ten, he still never has the guts to make a move; but if he does, how does he deal with Penny's inevitable rejection? Psycho destroy the world time, you think? Oh, yeah.

You can create false dichotomies all day long, arguing that there's some meaningful distinction between "Billy," "White Horrible," and "Red Horrible," but at the end of the day all that stuff is only in your head (it's actually contradicted by the show). And you can argue based on what you think the characters would have done in various improbable hypothetical situations; but nothing you "prove" that way means anything outside of your own head.

Dienekes

2011-05-12, 05:32 PM

You mean that character absent pretty much the entire time, makes a brief cameo at the end, and doesn't do anything?

If it makes you feel better, I still liked Hammer and Moist more than Dr. Horrible.

VanBuren

2011-05-12, 05:53 PM

So your position is that because shooting to wound is a controversial idea, nobody could ever use a potentially lethal weapon in a way intended to be non-lethal?

My position is that, just as I would have a hard time believing that someone who shot someone else didn't intend to kill them, it would take a great deal to convince me that someone throwing a car did not intend to kill their target.

VanBuren

2011-05-12, 05:54 PM

Well yeah, but is there a point in using it rather than sensible?

...Because I wanted to? I'm sorry I didn't file an application for my use of the English language.

Tazar

2011-05-12, 06:03 PM

Weezer

2011-05-12, 06:03 PM

Well yeah, but is there a point in using it rather than sensible?
Mainly questioned it due to the character limit though.

I enjoy using words without their prefixes when only the prefixed words are common anymore. Like whelmed and gruntled.

Selrahc

2011-05-12, 06:06 PM

...Because I wanted to? I'm sorry I didn't file an application for my use of the English language.

Well, as long as you're sorry. Just remember to fill in the application next time.

I didn't actually care really. It's just a stupid neologism that doubles up on the word sensible, while also looking far too similar to it. Made up words should be due to inventiveness rather than dodgy back formations. Ordinarily, I wouldn't comment on it though. Blame the character limit.

Joran

2011-05-12, 06:20 PM

I'm still trying to work out how you can rationalize throwing a car at somebody without superpowers as "non-lethal force". That's about as sensical as shooting to "not kill".

It's possible to shoot in the air as a method of intimidation. However, what goes up, must come down...

Throwing a car at someone's head... At best, Doctor Horrible is exaggerating and Captain Hammer threw the car over his head, but it's needless property damage and overkill. Since we never see the scene in question, we don't know how close Captain Hammer came to killing Doctor Horrible.

Also, Captain Hammer was perfectly willing to kill Doctor Horrible with his death ray. Doctor Horrible couldn't pull the trigger (at least not right away) while Captain Hammer didn't hesitate at all.

Tazar

2011-05-12, 06:26 PM

That is quite a fair point; Hammer showed zero reluctance to blast Horrible to death.

Tirian

2011-05-12, 06:46 PM

On the other hand, he's the most nefarious supervillain in the entire world, and as far as we can tell his superpower is being a horse.

That's a really bad horse.

His superpower is speaking through a trio of singing cowboys. Come on!

(Keep in mind that Bad Horse came from the fertile imagination of Bed Edlund, creator of The Tick. He's actually somewhat mainstream compared to Chairface Chippendale.)

Mewtarthio

2011-05-12, 07:03 PM

So your position is that because shooting to wound is a controversial idea, nobody could ever use a potentially lethal weapon in a way intended to be non-lethal?

Use of a lethal weapon in any situation where lethal force is not justified is, at best, negligent to an absurd degree. There are some potentially lethal weapons that can be used relatively safely, such as your bare hands. Guns are not one of them. Neither are ballistic cars.

And even if Horrible's death was necessary at that point, throwing a car is a needlessly destructive way to bring it about. Hammer could have just punched him into a fine mist. He instead opted to grab a piece of machinery that was probably worth thousands of dollars at hurl it at the villain. To say nothing to the damage to whatever public or private property was behind Horrible at the time.

He's not ignorant of the consequences of his actions - any dolt with half a brain could figure out the effects of smashing the system,

But they'd also see that humankind has gone insane to the point where they wouldn't know if they'd upset the status quo if they threw poison in the water main. :smalltongue:

Philistine

2011-05-12, 07:15 PM

There absolutely is a distinction between Billy/White Horrible and Red Horrible. Red Horrible has caused the death of the woman who he loved. That most certainly changed him as a person, as evidenced by "Everything You Ever". There's none of the spark, joy, or life in that song that Billy/Horrible possessed throughout the entire work; he's dead inside.
Tell it to the judge. Any judge, in any jurisdiction, ever. "Red Horrible" is merely the non-incompetent version of what Billy had always wanted to be, and worked very hard to become.

That is quite a fair point; Hammer showed zero reluctance to blast Horrible to death.
Sure, after Billy nearly did the same to him - and with the exact same weapon! If Billy's Freeze Ray hadn't failed when it did... Well, we'll never actually know. But Billy had a big hate on for Hammer, and he invested a lot of time and preparation in setting up that shot. Don't plan the plan if you can't follow through - I think he'd have remembered where he left his guts given just a moment more.

Tazar

2011-05-12, 07:41 PM

Tell it to the judge. Any judge, in any jurisdiction, ever. "Red Horrible" is merely the non-incompetent version of what Billy had always wanted to be, and worked very hard to become.

It's not about what he'd be like in a court of law, it's about his growth as a character. Asserting that Billy/Dr. Horrible pre-Penny's murder and post-Penny's murder possess the same mentality is just incorrect.

To make a Buffy analogy, it's how

Willow torturing and executing Warren was a crucial turning point for her character. It happened in the space of like forty-five minutes, and she was not the same person before and after that event. Neither was Horrible after murdering Penny.

Sure, after Billy nearly did the same to him - and with the exact same weapon! If Billy's Freeze Ray hadn't failed when it did... Well, we'll never actually know. But Billy had a big hate on for Hammer, and he invested a lot of time and preparation in setting up that shot. Don't plan the plan if you can't follow through - I think he'd have remembered where he left his guts given just a moment more.

Doesn't change the fact that Hammer, the "hero", was about to execute someone he had, helpless, at his mercy. Just makes it even clearer that he's, personality-wise, pretty damn awful.

Xondoure

2011-05-12, 07:44 PM

Tirian

2011-05-12, 08:55 PM

Tell it to the judge. Any judge, in any jurisdiction, ever. "Red Horrible" is merely the non-incompetent version of what Billy had always wanted to be, and worked very hard to become.

I think you're underselling the tragedy of the story. Billy worked very hard to become an agent of social change with his great intellect and devotion to principles. At the end of Act 3, he is greatly feared and powerful, but he's now "just" a one-dimensional supervillain with very inelegant blood on his hands and no connection with the humanity that he wished to save from the status quo. Billy lost control of his destiny, first through Bad Horse's temptation and later through Captain Hammer's really nasty plot and decided to trade who he was in order to achieve what he wanted. In the end, I think he realized he made a bad deal but has to decide how to collect himself again.

VanBuren

2011-05-12, 08:59 PM

It's possible to shoot in the air as a method of intimidation. However, what goes up, must come down...

Throwing a car at someone's head... At best, Doctor Horrible is exaggerating and Captain Hammer threw the car over his head, but it's needless property damage and overkill. Since we never see the scene in question, we don't know how close Captain Hammer came to killing Doctor Horrible.

Also, Captain Hammer was perfectly willing to kill Doctor Horrible with his death ray. Doctor Horrible couldn't pull the trigger (at least not right away) while Captain Hammer didn't hesitate at all.

Here's why I'm reluctant to use the car example (or Horrible's stalking) as serious character flaw examples: those elements are deliberately heightened and exaggerated for humor. I don't think they're intended to be analyzed so deeply, and I think that the whole thing is designed to sort of fall apart if you try.

Philistine

2011-05-12, 09:03 PM

Billy worked very hard to become an agent of social change with his great intellect and devotion to principles.

Please tell me you're joking.

Tazar

2011-05-12, 09:04 PM

Yes Billy is a villain, no he is not pure evil. Even Red Horrible is just going through the motions because he doesn't know what to do with himself. Hammer on the other hand was a morally bankrupt ass who's selfish and reckless attitude ends up getting the people he is trying to protect killed. Dr. Horrible never had the guts to kill anyone. Even the man who had spent his entire life making him miserable and was banging a girl purely to spite him. The only thing holding Hammer back was an appropriately dramatic moment.

Quick addendum; Hammer's not actually trying to protect anybody. :smalltongue:

He's in it for the fame, glory, and women, and the best way to get that is to fight supervillains. If he saves a life or two along the way, well, that's even better for his image, but he doesn't care about that.

Regarding whether we are overanalyzing deliberately exaggerated moments; I'd be slow to dismiss anything in a Whedon production as having no bearing on a character. While there is stuff that doesn't, Joss also often takes small, seemingly meaningless gestures (Cordelia insulting Willow at the water fountain in S1, for example) and has them actually play into the character in a significant way.

So while I agree that they're likely deliberately ridiculous, at the same time I wouldn't assume there's no deeper meaning there.

Please tell me you're joking.

Just because he couldn't quantify that change, or even though that change may not be for the better or morally sound at all, doesn't mean he wasn't fighting for social change.

Although he never explains his agenda to us, that's certainly part of his motivation. "My Eyes" makes this pretty explicit.

Tirian

2011-05-12, 10:40 PM

Please tell me you're joking.

Of course I'm not joking. Watch the first blog again -- THAT is who Billy is before Bad Horse tempts him to betray his values in exchange for ELOE membership. He's more interested in changing the world than in a high-profile fight with Johnny Snow, and pointedly refuses to endanger children. I'm not suggesting that he's a nice guy, but becoming the villain that he was at the end was not his choice but the tragic consequences of a situation that was beyond his control.

VanBuren

2011-05-12, 10:42 PM

Tazar

2011-05-12, 11:12 PM

Dienekes

2011-05-12, 11:17 PM

Of course I'm not joking. Watch the first blog again -- THAT is who Billy is before Bad Horse tempts him to betray his values in exchange for ELOE membership. He's more interested in changing the world than in a high-profile fight with Johnny Snow, and pointedly refuses to endanger children. I'm not suggesting that he's a nice guy, but becoming the villain that he was at the end was not his choice but the tragic consequences of a situation that was beyond his control.

The first blog is what gives us his memorable lines of "the world is a mess and I just have to rule it." and "it's not about making money it's about taking money."

He's more interested in his own greed and sense of entitlement than in a high profile fight. He is willing to place his morals aside to get what he wants, a ELOE membership, a girlfriend, petty revenge. He does not lift a finger to become an agent of social change in any positive sense. He works solely to destroy a working system and place himself as ruler. While I guess technically that is an agent of social change, putting it any any positive light is well, sickening really. His great devotion to principles though. This line bewilders me. What principles? Not causing murder? That's like the single most basic principle a man can have. You don't get points for having that as a principle, especially when your reason for dropping this single principle is a job opportunity and someone sleeping with your crush.

And it was a tragic consequence of his choice. He decided to go murder someone, it was not all beyond his control he set the ball in motion.

Tazar

2011-05-12, 11:19 PM

Nobody's saying he's some great moral crusader; he's obviously got a great deal of self-interest, as the Penny arc clearly indicates.

Just pointing out that there's some genuine anger at the state of the world mixed in there too. Is it good anger? No. Does the way he plans on achieving change represent a moral or correct action? No. The way he goes about it is utterly reprehensible, I agree. Fact remains, though, he's still got a cause.

In the end, I imagine those ideals died with Penny, but I guess that's something we won't discover until the sequel.

Dienekes

2011-05-12, 11:33 PM

Philistine

2011-05-13, 12:24 AM

Nobody's saying he's some great moral crusader
Actually no, that's exactly what Tirian said, and it's ludicrous - if Billy has any ideals beyond taking power for himself, he never once mentions them. Not even when he and Penny are talking in between "Caring Hands" and "A Man's Gotta Do," when the subject has already been breached, giving him the perfect opportunity to explain what exactly he would change about society: all he says there is that he wants to see power in different hands, clearly meaning his own.

I don't see any reason to assume Billy is crying for the state of the world in general at the start of "My Eyes," not when there's another explanation that's more consistent with his behavior throughout: his anger at the world is merely because he's not on top of it, and "humankind has gone insane" because the girl he wants is out on a date with his enemy. He really can't comprehend why a girl would date a guy who's handsome, charming (at least on first meeting), and - oh yeah - a famous hero, who saved her life and then asked her to dinner, rather than a creepy stalker who - oh yeah - never bothered to ask her out. He's morally reprehensible from start to finish... yet still oddly likable. That's the real genius of the show, even if one result is that some people aren't able to look past the Protagonist packaging to see the Villain inside.

Based on the actual show, Billy doesn't care about the poor - who do you think would get the shaft first, and worst, if his plan succeeded and the entire fabric of society unraveled? He doesn't care about the suffering of others - his whole plan is to cause suffering in order to facilitate his takeover. He doesn't care about human life - when the phone call from the ELoE ordered him to kill someone, he objects solely on stylistic grounds, never mentioning morality. He doesn't care about fighting Johnny Snow, because Johnny Snow isn't high-profile enough - remember "You are not my nemesis. My nemesis is Captain Hammer"? He doesn't care about Penny either, not really - he calls her "the girl of his dreams" without ever having met her, based solely on her looks.

Billy cares about ruling the world. He says so himself. Repeatedly. Billy chose to put on the coat and goggles of Dr. Horrible because that's what he wanted to do. He chose Evil consciously, deliberately, and of his own free will. How in the world does anyone think this guy is okay? HE. IS. A. VILLAIN. Heck, "Let's make a musical about a supervillain" was the original pitch for the show - it's the seed that everything else was built around!

And yeah, I'm also marveling at the "great intellect" bit, because Billy is a textbook idiot savant - inhumanly good with gadgets, but ludicrously, disastrously bad with anything and everything else. He's not even good at being evil, which might be a stronger character reference if he weren't trying so hard to be in despite of his own best instincts.

Tazar

2011-05-13, 12:40 AM

I think that's certainly one way to look at it; however,I really do have to disagree with your interpretation of "My Eyes". Is a (not inconsiderable) part of Billy's anger in that song due to Hammer and Penny? Yes. However, I still feel that there's absolutely genuine hatred of the state of the world in general in there. NPH conveys a whole hell of a lot of disgust and pain in that song.

The bottom rung of society would absolutely be the ones most disadvantaged if Billy enacted his "new world order", which you're right to point out. However, I honestly doubt the character himself has realized that; Dr. Horrible is quite naive in his own way, and that seems like something he just wouldn't have considered.

I consider him to be a villain, definitely, but I feel that you are somewhat unfair in ascribing solely selfish motives to his claimed desire to change the world. While self-interest certainly has a lot to do with it, I don't think it's everything.
I also feel obligated to point out that everything you've said Horrible doesn't care about, Hammer doesn't care about either. :smalltongue:

Hammer's nearly as bad a human being as Horrible, albeit in a different way.

ScionoftheVoid

2011-05-13, 01:45 AM

I'll just say now that I don't necessarily believe anything I've argued, I just decided to make a point and back it up. Sure, a fair bit of it is my own thought but there's a lot of counter arguments I deliberately left out to make the point more convincing. In general, if I'm making particularly long posts that will be happening. Noone wants to hear my actual opinion, so I make posts about them short and to the point, but a debate is fun to participate in and to watch so those posts are longer.

I may come back to the posts left in my absence later, but it will have to be later.

On two small things: I took "it's not about making money, it's about taking money" to mean that Horrible doesn't care that he won't gain anything so long as society is destabilised by the loss. I also took Billy/White Horrible as the same person with different priorities determining which one is real at a particular time (though Red Horrible is almost a completely different person).

Xondoure

2011-05-13, 09:37 AM

Philistine, yes we hear a lot about his selfish motivations but you seem to be setting aside every good or caring thing Billy has ever done or said in favor of exaggerating his less favorable traits, while doing the opposite for the hero. Where I would hold one of the important messages of Dr. Horrible is that the hero and the villain are not always who they appear to be. And Dr. Horrible longs to be recognized and accepted, so it makes sense that fame and glory would be appealing to him because no one besides Moist and Penny has ever respected him. But he does want social change, he just truly believes that under the current system nothing ever will. Also he has serious lack of faith in the world due to the discrimination he's faced his whole life so in his mind the only person he can trust to make the world better is himself.

He is a villain and thus "evil" but lets look at his three big heists; Stealing gold in a completely unusable form. Shaking the status quo because the status is not quo. This is probably his most evil and it is used to set up just how pathetic he is. Memorial bridge. Its not really clear what he tries to do here but I would guess something along the lines of defacing Captain Hammer's icon. You know, the man who has made his life a living hell. Third is the murder, the one he couldn't do because ultimately his conscience got the better of him.

Yes he has bad traits but these are his flaws and what ultimately undo him not what defines him. And I have a hard time believing Horrible to be as cruel as Achilles, or other acclaimed heroes of the past. Yes they come from a different culture than our own but if Horrible was truly a villain he would show it.

He is pathetic, careless, and alone. But not evil or cruel. Just angry at a world that turned its back on him.

Tazar

2011-05-13, 12:35 PM

To expand further on the "people are not what they seem on the surface" point;

This is indeed one of the main ideas behind the entire thing. If we examine Captain Hammer, we see an individual who cares about his reputation above all else, even human life. Examples of this include, but are not limited to,
1) His intervention against Horrible's van theft is horribly inept and utilized more as a grandstanding tool than anything else. When presented with an opportunity to easily stop it, he instead showboats around and causes it to go careening out of control.
2) After defeating Horrible, he allows him to escape so he can hit on a girl.
3) When attacked at the homeless gathering, he doesn't even attempt to "take it outside" to ensure no innocents are harmed in the process, and indeed is about to execute Horrible-effectively taking the law into his own hands. Horrible shows concern for the welfare of bystanders while Hammer doesn't, even warning Hammer that the gun will explode.

Where Billy/Horrible is naive, angry, creepy, and somewhat evil, Hammer is arrogant, uncaring, and pretty evil in his own way. He ruthlessly exploits people, using his reputation as a hero to gain status and followers while in reality he does more damage fighting crime than the criminals do causing it.

Again, I think the fact that Horrible objected to fighting in a park that has kids around, while Hammer fires a death ray that he knows is unstable, really shows something about their respective characters.

Horrible has to be pushed to ruthlessness, and even then he doesn't quite appear to have the stomach for it; for Hammer, ruthlessness comes as natural as breathing.