Help with a Githzerai Psionic Gish (Monk+Tashalatora)

[fhgwdads]

Hi, I'm looking to play a Githzerai gish based on Monk2 and either the Psychic Warrior or Ardent. We will be starting at ECL 6 (so 4th level for survives that long, it's pbp). Options with PrCs are under consideration as well (most notably War Mind or anything that improves Manifester level for Psywar/Ardent), but my preference would be to maintain the highest manifester level possible. Unfortunately, my ST has currently ruled that he won't be using Level Adjustment buy-off, so that will cap my manifester level out at 16 (to 20 with Practiced Manifester). On a side note, any thoughts on how I might convince him to allow it would be greatly appreciated.

---EDIT: He has now told me he'll be reconsidering allowing LA buyoff after I explained the XP difference in what it'll take me to reach 20th level ---

Anyhoo, here are the rolls I've came up with:

18 17 8 9 10 14

18 16 10 9 10 14 (first roll with an alteration my DM gave me the option of)

16 15 14 12 10 10

I'm not terribly sure which of these is optimal - Cha is basically a dump stat, meaning the 8 or 9 can go in it with. The first one, however, would most likely leave me with an Int at 6 or 7 (or 8 if I put an ability point into it) and either Con or Str at 10, which is far from ideal (though having 24 Dex and 23/24 Wis is making me drool). The second roll gives me slightly more well-rounded stats as well as more build possibilities, at the expense of ridiculous stats (for slightly-less amazing yet still good).

Build-wise, my original intention was a finesse-based unarmed fighter using a whole bunch of funky powers. However, with feat limitations and keeping utility in mind, I'm trying to decide whether this is the best path.

The finesse-based unarmed fighter (statline: Str 10, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 7/8, Wis 24/23, Cha 8) was most likely going to go for all Ardent levels in order to maximize manifester level, though unfortunately this limits my feat choices - Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack will be competing for space with Metapsionic Feats and Practiced Manifester. The overall effectiveness of the build comes into question as well, but I imagine there are ways to make it still somewhat effective. As we have only one caster, my character would no doubt play some part in a support role, and I know there are plenty of Ardent Mantle powers could very easily help me fit this while remaining an effective close combatant (and/or Shuriken-chucking machine).

Another possibility I'm considering uses the second stat row with Str 16 (15+1), Dex 18 (12+6), Con 14, Int 8 (10-2), Wis 18 (16+2), Cha 10 and Monk with Psychic Warrior and possibly War Mind. This would become a trip build using Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, and Serpentine Strike (Eberron CS; Longspear becomes a Monk Weapon for flurries etc) for fun and profit, with Tashalatora and potentially two picks of Monastic Training to ensure full development of Monk abilities (if allowed).

I'd love to get a flavorful PrC like Zerth Cenobite or Haztaratain in there as well, but I'm not sure if it's the best idea. Thoughts and suggestions are greatly welcomed.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm going to have 13,000 gp to spend at the start. No Traits/Flaws allowed either.

[the_archduke]

You might want to change your title. You don't seem to be asking about E6

[fhgwdads]

You might want to change your title. You don't seem to be asking about E6

Woops. Thanks, fixed it.

[Master_Rahl22]

One of the main benefits of Ardent is that your powers known is based on your Manifester Level, not your Ardent level. Thus with Practiced Manifester, your Monk2 and LA +2 will not prevent you from getting ML 20 as an Ardent, and you will therefore have access to level 9 powers just as soon as you would with full Ardent. You will be slightly behind on PP, but that's the price you pay and your high Wis will help make up for it.

I don't know anything about Haztaratain, but I know Zerth Cenobite is not very good especially since you are already progressing all Monk features as a psionic class with Tashalatora.

I'd tend to prefer the first build but I might consider a dip into Swordsage at ECL 5 to pick up Assassin's Stance and the Shadow Blade feat so you can add that high Dex to your damage. So maybe something like LA +2/Monk 2/Swordsage 1/Ardent 1 to start. Feats would probably be Monastic Training as a bonus from Monk, Tashalatora, Shadow Blade and if you grab Practiced Manifester at class level 6 you start catching up on your Ardent powers.

[Keld Denar]

Why Githzerai? The +2 LA is really really really hurting your low level survivability. Not saying "hey kid, you're dumb, play something else", but with either build, you are looking at ~31 HP average. You'll have a decent AC, assuming you keep Inertial Armor up, but still, 2 good hits and you're down.

You are also really low on Powers Known. The Ardent build will have 3, while the PsyWar build will have 2. I'm assuming you want Inertial Armor for 1, at least, and Expansion is pretty much the way to go for Tash builds (its all about stacking size boosts). Expansion is tough to get with Ardent, though, since its not on any mantle list. It would fit on like, Physical Power though, if you mantle swap it. Vigor or Force Screen would be the other two powers you want. Vigor goes with the Share Pain + Pet Rock combo (which the Ardent probably won't have the feats for), while Force Screen is just really good short term AC boost. You can pick up powers that aren't on your list with Hidden Talent or Expanded Knowledge, but again, feat tax...

I'd look at Elan or Synad instead maybe, or even Half Giant? Might be a slightly stronger set.

[fhgwdads]

One of the main benefits of Ardent is that your powers known is based on your Manifester Level, not your Ardent level. Thus with Practiced Manifester, your Monk2 and LA +2 will not prevent you from getting ML 20 as an Ardent, and you will therefore have access to level 9 powers just as soon as you would with full Ardent. You will be slightly behind on PP, but that's the price you pay and your high Wis will help make up for it.

I don't know anything about Haztaratain, but I know Zerth Cenobite is not very good especially since you are already progressing all Monk features as a psionic class with Tashalatora.

I'd tend to prefer the first build but I might consider a dip into Swordsage at ECL 5 to pick up Assassin's Stance and the Shadow Blade feat so you can add that high Dex to your damage. So maybe something like LA +2/Monk 2/Swordsage 1/Ardent 1 to start. Feats would probably be Monastic Training as a bonus from Monk, Tashalatora, Shadow Blade and if you grab Practiced Manifester at class level 6 you start catching up on your Ardent powers.

I actually forgot about the Ardent's manifesting - thanks for reminding me of that! Are there are other PrCs that might help with improving my manifester level while giving me funky abilities? I personally like Storm Disciple, though its class abilities don't seem terribly useful to be worth it (it also requires me to go Chaos Monk instead, which unfortunately doesn't fit my character thematically).

Haztaratain is basically Zerth Cenobite with a different theme and abilities corresponding to it. It improves Monk abilities just as well (actually worse, I think), and doesn't help my manifesting level. I guess that's out too, then.

I would very much LOVE to take a Swordsage dip - my initial plan for this character was actually completely Swordsage, rather than psionic - but the DM has disallowed ToB. I believe I still have access to the non-combat manuever feats, though, so Snap Kick and such is available if it helps. Still, not getting Dex to damage will hurt - is there another way I can get around this, or should I basically plan on buffing Strength with magic items or powers?

[Keld Denar]

Another thing to not is that you can Tash out ANY Psionic PrC. You could do something like Monk2/PsyRogue18 for UAS and SA progression, or even something silly like Monk2/Swordsage2/Warmind10. You'll be really strapped for powers, but it'll work. Alternatively, Monk2/PsyWar4/Slayer10 works, using Tash to progress Slayer. The biggest goal is 11th level Flurry for Greater Flurry. As long as you get that, the rest can be made up for with size bonuses and effective size bonuses.

Also, don't forget about Link Power. Its one of the best PsyWar feats ever for buffing. Combine it with a swift action or immediate action power for no-hastle buffage.

[Master_Rahl22]

The only other way I know of to get Dex to damage is Champion of Corellon Latharian which requires Elf and that you use certain weapons which don't include Unarmed Strike. I'd say that for damage you depend on powers like Animal Affinity and Adrenaline Boost to add to your Strength and Expansion to make you bigger for higher base damage as well as adding Strength.

I'll second Keld's "are you sure about Githzerai" since with say Half-Giant you could have already bought off your LA and have 5 class levels and be very close to your 6th. Yes, the uber Dex is nifty as are the PLAs but it's just something to consider.

[Master_Rahl22]

Also, don't forget about Link Power. Its one of the best PsyWar feats ever for buffing. Combine it with a swift action or immediate action power for no-hastle buffage.

QFT. Psionic Meditation + Hustle + Linked Power = multiple uses of your focus in the same round.

Oh, and here's the Ardent Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5871.0;wap2) in case you haven't seen it.

[fhgwdads]

Why Githzerai? The +2 LA is really really really hurting your low level survivability. Not saying "hey kid, you're dumb, play something else", but with either build, you are looking at ~31 HP average. You'll have a decent AC, assuming you keep Inertial Armor up, but still, 2 good hits and you're down.

You are also really low on Powers Known. The Ardent build will have 3, while the PsyWar build will have 2. I'm assuming you want Inertial Armor for 1, at least, and Expansion is pretty much the way to go for Tash builds (its all about stacking size boosts). Expansion is tough to get with Ardent, though, since its not on any mantle list. It would fit on like, Physical Power though, if you mantle swap it. Vigor or Force Screen would be the other two powers you want. Vigor goes with the Share Pain + Pet Rock combo (which the Ardent probably won't have the feats for), while Force Screen is just really good short term AC boost. You can pick up powers that aren't on your list with Hidden Talent or Expanded Knowledge, but again, feat tax...

I'd look at Elan or Synad instead maybe, or even Half Giant? Might be a slightly stronger set.

Githzerai is mainly a thematic choice, as I like the race. Since they also get Inertial Armor 3/day at 1/2HD for ML, I don't have to worry about picking it up with Ardent or Psychic Warrior. I'd consider Half-Giant, but as I have backstory already in mind for this character I'd prefer to keep going this way.

I see what you're saying about the HP, size boosts and potential feat taxes, though. Survivability is unfortunately going to be an issue I can't really avoid with either build - we're using max HP at first level and average at each beyond that, so at level 4 with 14 con I can expect 27hp (8+4.5+3.5+3.5+8) from the Monk2/Ardent2 and 29hp (8+4.5+4.5+4.5+8) with the Monk2/PsyWar2. Luckily, this isn't terribly far off from the other applicants so far (a Fighter2/Rogue4 with 34hp, a Wizard5/Alienist1 with 22hp) save the Barbarian/Ranger/ExtremeExplorer, who has 52. As the ST isn't too big on powergaming it may not be an end-of-the-world scenario, but it's definitely something I need to be concerned about.

My biggest concern is the limited number of feats I have available. Constructing a coherent build with Ardent will probably require tough choices between Psionic and Unarmed Combat feats. Any and all suggestions are definitely helpful on this, as well as power selections (I am pretty much a complete noob when it comes to Psionics). We're going to need a Healer, so I'm considering the Life Mantle, but aside from that Time and Freedom have sparked the most interest for me so far.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Forget about using Weapon Finesse, it will just end up costing you another feat and ruining Expansion. I'd arrange your stats as follows for each set you rolled:
First roll: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 19, Cha 8
Second roll: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 9
Third roll: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 10

If you insist on using War Mind, don't bother multiclassing it with another manifesting class. Go something like Monk 5/ War Mind 10/ Slayer or Elocater or Sanctified Mind or Monk 5, using either Education (ECS) or Knowledge Devotion (CC) to get Kn: Psionics as a class skill. I'd go Monastic Training (1), Stunning Fist (1), Combat Reflexes (2), Knowledge Devotion (3), Tashalatora (6), Practiced Manifester (9), Superior Unarmed Strike (12), Improved Natural Attack (15), Linked Power (18). Later on hire an NPC Psion to use Psychic Reformation on you to replace Knowledge Devotion with Linked Power, you won't lose your War Mind levels and its skill ranks toward Kn: Psionics will qualify you for itself. That will allow you to get Track to qualify for Slayer, which gives you the proficiencies to qualify for Sanctified Mind, which you can meet the feat prerequisite for via the Otyugh Hole. This is only if you're going to use War Mind.

If you're going to use Ardent, I'd probably go something like Monk 4/ Ardent 16 (not necessarily in that order). You can use your Monk 2 bonus feat to get Monastic Training, and pick up Tashalatora at 3rd level. Where you spend your skill points and when you take each level early on are going to be the big deciding factor. There really should have been a set of Githzerai Monk substitution levels, at least to grant Autohypnosis and Kn: Psionics. Something to keep in mind is that it doesn't say anywhere that you must spend all of your skill points each time you level up, so you could have some unspent points at your next level to max out more skills, but you still have to keep track of which class those points came from for cross-class rank costs. I'd do it as follows, assuming you use one of the Int 8 arrays:
1. Monk 1, Concentration 4, Autohypnosis 2, Psicraft 2
2. Monk 2, Concentration 5, 2 ranks remaining
3. Ardent 1, Psicraft 4 (1 Ardent point for 1 rank, 2 Monk points for 1 rank)
4. Ardent 2, Autohypnosis 3
5. Ardent 3, Autohypnosis 4
6. Ardent 4, Autohypnosis 5
7. Monk 3, Concentration 8
8. Monk 4, Concentration 11
9. Ardent 5, Concentration 12
That will leave you with max Concentration ranks, Autohypnosis 5 ranks, and Psicraft 4 ranks. You can get Practiced Manifester at 3rd level and pick 2nd level powers, and Tashalatora at 6th level. I'd pick up Linked Power at 9, Improved Natural Attack at 12, and skip Superior Unarmed Strike unless you can get a Psychic Reformation at 20 to replace it. Use the Substitution Powers (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) option to put Metamorphosis on the Physical Power mantle, and to gain access to nearly any power you'll ever want via other mantles.

[fhgwdads]

QFT. Psionic Meditation + Hustle + Linked Power = multiple uses of your focus in the same round.

Oh, and here's the Ardent Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5871.0;wap2) in case you haven't seen it.

Thanks for these suggestions, and the Ardent Handbook as well. Time for some reading!

Do you know of any other useful tricks with Linked Power or other Metapsionic Feats that I should be aware of?

[Master_Rahl22]

I like Biffoniacus_Furiou's suggestion about the Ardent build. I had forgotten about Expansion giving you a Dex penalty, and going with Str based will save you a feat in a feat starved build.

Regarding Mantles, I like Fate, Force, Freedom, Natural World, Physical Power, and Time. You mentioned needing a healer, but in general it should be enough to get everybody a Healing Belt from MIC for 750gp. Using one charge at a time to heal outside of combat, you get 6d8 healing per belt which will average to 27 HP healed per day. If you need more, the Rogue should grab UMD and wands of Lesser Vigor for 9 HP per charge.

[fhgwdads]

Forget about using Weapon Finesse, it will just end up costing you another feat and ruining Expansion. I'd arrange your stats as follows for each set you rolled:
First roll: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 19, Cha 8
Second roll: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 9
Third roll: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 10

If you insist on using War Mind, don't bother multiclassing it with another manifesting class. Go something like Monk 5/ War Mind 10/ Slayer or Elocater or Sanctified Mind or Monk 5, using either Education (ECS) or Knowledge Devotion (CC) to get Kn: Psionics as a class skill. I'd go Monastic Training (1), Stunning Fist (1), Combat Reflexes (2), Knowledge Devotion (3), Tashalatora (6), Practiced Manifester (9), Superior Unarmed Strike (12), Improved Natural Attack (15), Linked Power (18). Later on hire an NPC Psion to use Psychic Reformation on you to replace Knowledge Devotion with Linked Power, you won't lose your War Mind levels and its skill ranks toward Kn: Psionics will qualify you for itself. That will allow you to get Track to qualify for Slayer, which gives you the proficiencies to qualify for Sanctified Mind, which you can meet the feat prerequisite for via the Otyugh Hole. This is only if you're going to use War Mind.

If you're going to use Ardent, I'd probably go something like Monk 4/ Ardent 16 (not necessarily in that order). You can use your Monk 2 bonus feat to get Monastic Training, and pick up Tashalatora at 3rd level. Where you spend your skill points and when you take each level early on are going to be the big deciding factor. There really should have been a set of Githzerai Monk substitution levels, at least to grant Autohypnosis and Kn: Psionics. Something to keep in mind is that it doesn't say anywhere that you must spend all of your skill points each time you level up, so you could have some unspent points at your next level to max out more skills, but you still have to keep track of which class those points came from for cross-class rank costs. I'd do it as follows, assuming you use one of the Int 8 arrays:
1. Monk 1, Concentration 4, Autohypnosis 2, Psicraft 2
2. Monk 2, Concentration 5, 2 ranks remaining
3. Ardent 1, Psicraft 4 (1 Ardent point for 1 rank, 2 Monk points for 1 rank)
4. Ardent 2, Autohypnosis 3
5. Ardent 3, Autohypnosis 4
6. Ardent 4, Autohypnosis 5
7. Monk 3, Concentration 8
8. Monk 4, Concentration 11
9. Ardent 5, Concentration 12
That will leave you with max Concentration ranks, Autohypnosis 5 ranks, and Psicraft 4 ranks. You can get Practiced Manifester at 3rd level and pick 2nd level powers, and Tashalatora at 6th level. I'd pick up Linked Power at 9, Improved Natural Attack at 12, and skip Superior Unarmed Strike unless you can get a Psychic Reformation at 20 to replace it. Use the Substitution Powers (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) option to put Metamorphosis on the Physical Power mantle, and to gain access to nearly any power you'll ever want via other mantles.

Wow, thanks!

As far as the War Mind build goes, how would the bonus to Manifesting class level from Slayer/Elocater/Sanctified Mind work with the War Mind's ML, given that it caps at level 10?

Also, would this build be at all possible with the Serpent Strike feat I mentioned earlier (flurry with Longspear)? This requires gaining Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with it, meaning a dip in Psychic Warrior or waiting until picking up Slayer/Elocater would be necessary. The same dip would be required to take Sanctified Mind though, as War Mind doesn't give any new proficiencies. Including Monk 6 in there for Improved Trip as well would be cool, but I'm running out of levels here :p.

Monk 4/Ardent 16 sounds pretty good to me, though again Feats are definitely looking rough. I'm guessing I'll be looking to transform into a critter with a bunch of Natural Attacks with Metamorphosis? And in this scenario, could I get away with a Dex-heavy build and chuck Shurikens around when I'm not transforming into said critters?

For either build, what kinds of powers should I be considering? Is there anything that's particularly must-have in either power list?


I like Biffoniacus_Furiou's suggestion about the Ardent build. I had forgotten about Expansion giving you a Dex penalty, and going with Str based will save you a feat in a feat starved build.

Regarding Mantles, I like Fate, Force, Freedom, Natural World, Physical Power, and Time. You mentioned needing a healer, but in general it should be enough to get everybody a Healing Belt from MIC for 750gp. Using one charge at a time to heal outside of combat, you get 6d8 healing per belt which will average to 27 HP healed per day. If you need more, the Rogue should grab UMD and wands of Lesser Vigor for 9 HP per charge.

I'll take a look a second look at those Mantles. I know Freedom and Time were definitely eye-catching, but I don't remember too much about Fate/Force/Natural World.

Hmmm... What's MIC? Item-based healing sounds good, but what do we do if someone gets killed?

Thanks for all the help so far!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

After War Mind 10, any +1 level of manifesting won't give you any more powers known, but it will still increase your manifester level for duration and possible augmentation, plus you'll still get more bonus powerpoints/day for a high Wisdom score. You can get Track to pick up Slayer, which grants martial weapon proficiency, and then take Sanctified Mind or just keep taking more Slayer levels. A 6th Monk level is definitely a good choice if you want Improved Trip, and it won't cost you much that late in the build (just one manifester level).


The Life mantle could be helpful if you'll be the only one capable of curing negative conditions such as ability drain and death, but let it wait until the later levels.

Doing a Dex-focused build that relies on Metamorpohsis for melee could be a decent way to go, but until you get Metamorphosis you're not going to be very effective. In this case, you'll definitely want to take an Ardent level at your 7th character level to pick up Metamorphosis at the earliest opportunity.

MIC is the Magic Item Compendium. Your party can get wands of either Cure Light Wounds or even better Lesser Vigor, and anyone who gets the spell on their class spell list can use it to heal up the party between encounters.