So, how come none of the Gods ever tried to take over the Abyss? (and other ?)

[Sims]

Honestly, it doesn't look all that hard with all them powers and what not. That and about how large would an army have to be for them to take over? A couple of Simulacrum'd Gods would make this a walk in the park.

Demogorgon would fail miserably. Then they could kill Asmodeus next. :|

[Morph Bark]

Gods have stats, they can be killed.

The Abyss has literally an infinite amount of demons in it.

How much you wanna bet one of them will manage to kill a god?

[LOTRfan]

Plus, many Chaotic Evil goods who currently live there would rather aid the demons than other gods.

Gods can and will be killed, in droves. It's just too hard. If the gods had an overdeity on their side, maybe they could win, but overdeities are so powerful even the gods cannot comprehend them, right?

[Zaranthan]

MAD. Remember, there are just as many, if not more, evil gods as there are good gods. Every ounce of divine power that comes pouring out of Celestia can be matched by the forces of darkness. The material plane is relevant to the outer planes mainly because it's possible to win and lose there, rather than the eternal stalemate of trying to wage war around the wheel.

[Sims]

Gods have stats, they can be killed.

The Abyss has literally an infinite amount of demons in it.

How much you wanna bet one of them will manage to kill a god?

Thats reliant on a number of factors. I wager, a Greater God could easily defeat the entire Demon Lord Gauntlet by himself. Now if he has Epic Leadership, and Legendary Commander feats, he'll have an Army. (And a Cohort I guess.)

Gods can make any creature their familiar, so say hello to Rex, the 5-Headed Tarrasque.

Alter Reality is like a greater wish with no XP cost. Whats Bapho gonna do? Bellow?

I'd be a pretty Over Zealous deity myself.

[LOTRfan]

Zaranthan makes another good point. The Abyss keeps spewing out more demons. It's impossible to eradicate them.

Heck, the Abyss itself wiped out an entire pantheon, with no help from demons at all.

[Sims]

Zaranthan makes another good point. The Abyss keeps spewing out more demons. It's impossible to eradicate them.

Heck, the Abyss itself wiped out an entire pantheon, with no help from demons at all.

A Widened Holy Word as a Free Action at Will would not be hard for a God to pull off. >_>

We're assuming the demons swarm as soon as. Gods also have a Saliant Divine ability they can choose that is an instant death to those without a Divine Rank who come within 15ft with no save.

[LOTRfan]

Yes, and apparently the Abyss can kill a huge swathe of gods instantly, and use their remnants to create new types of demons (like several breeds of the loumara).

Something tells me that if an infinite plane itself wants you dead, you don't have a chance, no matter how powerful you are....

[Sims]

Yes, and apparently the Abyss can kill a huge swathe of gods instantly, and use their remnants to create new types of demons (like several breeds of the loumara).

Something tells me that if an infinite plane itself wants you dead, you don't have a chance, no matter how powerful you are....

That sounds like cheese to me >_>. Couldn't you just use Alter Reality to render yourself immune to the enviromental ailments? Thats not even a epic wish. The Abyss sounds like another unconquerable over rated fail. Just like the Lady of Pain.

[LOTRfan]

Lady of Pain cannot be overrated, though, because we don't know enough about her (much like the Abyss).

How can you fight something with about a dozen different myths and stories about its power level, origin, or even whether or not its intelligent?

EDIT: Heck, there's a myth that says that the Abyss is actually an overdeity...

[Morph Bark]

Thats reliant on a number of factors. I wager, a Greater God could easily defeat the entire Demon Lord Gauntlet by himself. Now if he has Epic Leadership, and Legendary Commander feats, he'll have an Army. (And a Cohort I guess.)

Gods can make any creature their familiar, so say hello to Rex, the 5-Headed Tarrasque.

Alter Reality is like a greater wish with no XP cost. Whats Bapho gonna do? Bellow?

I'd be a pretty Over Zealous deity myself.

Depends on which demon lord stats we use and what gods we are talking about. The Fiendish Codices have different stats for demon lords than the Book of Vile Darkness. In one of them the demon lords are heavily into Epic.

Also, I'm pretty sure that unique creatures couldn't be taken as familiars. Also, Alter Reality has its limitations and still requires actions to use. What is the god going to do if he loses initiative or if that first Alter Reality isn't enough?

Lastly, I think you underestimate the fact that there are an infinite amount of demons.

[Weezer]

Also dont forget that many Evil deities make their home in the Abyss. They wont stand by when Good tries to take over the abyss. Also the Abyss is doubly infinite, it has infinite layers of infinitely large planes...

This is exactly the same question as asking why doesn't Hell take over celestia? The answer is that for the large part the diving powers of good and evil are balanced, thats what makes the cosmology work. It's also what allows mere mortals to tip the balance, because they aren't factored into the balance and at sufficiently high levels they can shift things, even if it's only temporary.

[Sims]

Depends on which demon lord stats we use and what gods we are talking about. The Fiendish Codices have different stats for demon lords than the Book of Vile Darkness. In one of them the demon lords are heavily into Epic.

Also, I'm pretty sure that unique creatures couldn't be taken as familiars. Also, Alter Reality has its limitations and still requires actions to use. What is the god going to do if he loses initiative or if that first Alter Reality isn't enough?

Lastly, I think you underestimate the fact that there are an infinite amount of demons.

Theres an ability Gods can take called Supreme Initiative that makes it so they ALWAYS go first. The Unique creature as a familiar might be true, but not horrible. I wasn't gonna rely on one.

As for Alter Reality, thats also up in the air. but don't gods always roll a natural 20? Vorpal Scythe says hello.

Then I already covered that Instant death Aura. no matter how many demons there are, if they can't get close, it won't matter. (Deflect Arrows, and Exceptional Deflection could deal well, or a Shield with similar properties which a god can just make.)

[Koury]

So are you thinking of an actual god, or are we worshipping Schrodinger?

[TurtleKing]

Another question is how is a good god going to keep being turned over to the dark side. The longer he stays there fighting the more corrupted he is likely to become.

[Sims]

Another question is how is a good god going to keep being turned over to the dark side. The longer he stays there fighting the more corrupted he is likely to become.

Gods are immune to mind affecting and compulsions and a whole bunch of other stuff. This isn't an actual God, just a Generic Greater God.

[Morph Bark]

Theres an ability Gods can take called Supreme Initiative that makes it so they ALWAYS go first. The Unique creature as a familiar might be true, but not horrible. I wasn't gonna rely on one.

As for Alter Reality, thats also up in the air. but don't gods always roll a natural 20? Vorpal Scythe says hello.

Then I already covered that Instant death Aura. no matter how many demons there are, if they can't get close, it won't matter. (Deflect Arrows, and Exceptional Deflection could deal well, or a Shield with similar properties which a god can just make.)

Why would the demons need to come close in the first place? Just get a bunch of them that can cast like wizards/archivists/clerics/sorcerers and start lobbing around the right spells. With epic demons, they could create a spell specific enough to kill a specific god with a lot of downsides to make it easily castable.

[Jeraa]

Good gods can not conquer the Abyss. Even if they could deal with the infinite hordes of demons, you know any of the evil gods living there won't just sit by and let it happen. The battle won't be good god vs demons. It will be god against god. There is a reason that the Abyss has never fallen. You can not conquer a plane. You may be able to hold a part of it for a short while, but you will be overwhelmed. If a while plane could be conquered that easily, there would be no reason to send their forces to the Material plane, and fight there.

And if it does seem like the Abyss may fall, you know Asmodeus and the lawful evil gods just wouldn't stand by and let the forces of good get a foothold. The only thing demons and devils hate more than each other are the forces of good. And if Hell did come to aid the Abyss, the other good aligned planes come to help their allies as well. So it becomes not one god fighting another, but all of the forces of Good assaulting the forces of Evil.

Another reason why it may never happen, it to maintain the "great cosmic balance". Getting the Abyss under control of the forces of good throws the Great Wheel off balance. Bad things could happen. The gods, knowing this, don't take over other planes. That doesn't stop them from killing the inhabitants though.

I can't seem to remember where I read it, but this has been tried before. The forces of good try to invade in mass, and the Blood War is put on hold for a while while Hell and the Abyss fight against the forces of good.

[Sims]

Why would the demons need to come close in the first place? Just get a bunch of them that can cast like wizards/archivists/clerics/sorcerers and start lobbing around the right spells. With epic demons, they could create a spell specific enough to kill a specific god with a lot of downsides to make it easily castable.

That goes against the "Chaotic" nature of demons. That and a reflect shield takes care of most ranged attacks. Plus aren't gods immune to magic casted by people with lower rank? Not only that, but Divine Dodge makes it so you have a % miss chance.

This is all assuming the God is not aware of the caster, which isn't right because they have "Senses".

[The Glyphstone]

That sounds like cheese to me >_>. Couldn't you just use Alter Reality to render yourself immune to the enviromental ailments? Thats not even a epic wish. The Abyss sounds like another unconquerable over rated fail. Just like the Lady of Pain.

...a semi-sentient plane that defends itself from destruction is cheese, but immediate-action Widened Holy Word at will isn't?:smallannoyed::smallconfused:

[Sims]

...a semi-sentient plane that defends itself from destruction is cheese, but immediate-action Widened Holy Word at will isn't?:smallannoyed::smallconfused:

:smallamused: So, maybe that was a little chedder, but hes up against infinity! :O

[Talya]

That sounds like cheese to me >_>.

Uh... Gods?

[LOTRfan]

That goes against the "Chaotic" nature of demons.

I disagree with you completely. Demons are Chaotic Evil, not Chaotic Stupid. Demons are fully capable of working together to cast spells in a semi-organized manner if its a matter of survival. Demons, like all creatures, will do anything in their power to protect their home. perhaps even more so than other creatures, because their natural chaos makes them more inclined to do crazy, rule-bending things.

[Cicciograna]

It's sheer numbers that forbid the conquest.

Gods are powerful, that's true. They have followers, that's true.
But.

What Abyss has its Infinity. Infinity has the bad habit to be A LOT. An optimized God can take many, many actions in a single turn, destroying many, many demons in each turn. His followers can take many actions in each turn, destroying (or at least hindering) a great number of demons.

But since ∞-n=∞ (where n is a finite number), there would be always ∞ demons ready to do battle against the God and his followers. Each round ∞ actions would be made against him, not just attacks, but schemes, plots, plans (yes, demons are chaotic, but chaotic doesn't mean stupid. Demogorgon and Orcus are chaotic but cunning), and these ∞ actions would weaken the God, would kill his followers, would waste his time and energies: if he moves from Layer 101 to Layer 102, you can bet that Layer 101 will be soon swarmed again by demons, because it would be the Abyss itself to rebel and fight.

Given time, the Great God powers would begin to wane: his resources are plenty, but not limitless, his followers are many, but not infinite, and given time, what is finite, if consumed, tends to zero. While ∞? It stays ∞.
And what would happen to the God, alone in a land where a literally infinite horde of enemies still fights on? His followers would soon begin to wonder WHERE their God is: the conquest of Abyss is a time consuming deed, and there are many lesser Gods eager to steal the Great God's portfolios, cast him down from his position and become Greater Gods theirselves.

Without the support from the faith of his followers, deprived of his power, unseated from his divine rank, the God would fall, as mighty as he was: he would die, and all would be wasted; maybe he could become a Demon Lord himself, but then the former Great God would be a forgotten past.

No, the Abyss could not be overrun so simply.

[Kish]

:smallamused: So, maybe that was a little chedder, but hes up against infinity! :O
Yeah, um, I'd have to say it appears that your argument is that a god who wants to be able to destroy the Abyss should be able to...no pun intended...god-mode through it. Because he wants to. D&D gods are not omnipotent.

[LOTRfan]

Yeah, um, I'd have to say it appears that your argument is that a god who wants to be able to destroy the Abyss should be able to...no pun intended...god-mode through it. Because he wants to. D&D gods are not omnipotent.

Exactly. There has not been a single god published in all of D&D that has not been killable. That is because no deity in D&D is omnipotent or all powerful.

Well, overdeities are, but that's not the point. :smalltongue:

[Dacia Brabant]

Yeah but gods are like Marvel villains: you can kill them, but they'll be back next season. Bane and Bhaal had their kids to come back through, Myrkul had that crown artifact, and...well, I guess Mystra's not coming back, but that's mostly because no one wants her to.

As for taking out the Abyss, well the planes are cosmological so you'll have to eliminate Chaotic Evil from the multiverse before the Abyss goes away.

[Jeraa]

As for taking out the Abyss, well the planes are cosmological so you'll have to eliminate Chaotic Evil from the multiverse before the Abyss goes away.

That is also a good point. Should someone actually conquer the Abyss, a new Abyss would just come into being.

[Popertop]

Exactly. There has not been a single god published in all of D&D that has not been killable. That is because no deity in D&D is omnipotent or all powerful.

Well, overdeities are, but that's not the point. :smalltongue:

this brings up a good point: Gods as we know them in D&D are more like ascended beings than actual gods. The overdeities are closer to "actual gods".

[LOTRfan]

this brings up a good point: Gods as we know them in D&D are more like ascended beings than actual gods. The overdeities are closer to "actual gods".

That's pretty much the basis for all monotheistic settings I've ever played in.

[danzibr]

Gotta say it...

Just because the abyss is infinite doesn't mean there are infinitely many denizens.

[Gamer Girl]

Honestly, it doesn't look all that hard with all them powers and what not. That and about how large would an army have to be for them to take over? A couple of Simulacrum'd Gods would make this a walk in the park.

Demogorgon would fail miserably. Then they could kill Asmodeus next. :|

Lots of reasons:

1.Even if they did, what would they get out of it? They would 'rule' the plane of Chaotic Evil. And then what?

2.It leaves them open to attack. There is more evil in the multiverse then just the Abyss. So say god Bob attacks the Abyss..oh no, as soon as he leaves his home gets attacked by a horde from Battor. Now god Bob has to fight two battles.

3.The Balance. In order for their to be Good, you must have Evil. This is why they leave the Abyss alone.

[LOTRfan]

Gotta say it...

Just because the abyss is infinite doesn't mean there are infinitely many denizens.

Normally, I would agree that we couldn't make that assumption, but Fiendish Codex I confirms it.

[Tvtyrant]

Also, killing off the Tanari wouldn't defeat the Abyss, it would only kill off the Tanari. Remember that the Abyss has replaced one type of demon with another before, and potentially could do so an infinite number of times.

There isn't even necessarily an infinite number of demons, since they are described as "spreading" from the first layer to the others physically when the Bralani betrayed them and destroyed the Obyrith. All Tanari are born from manes, which have a huge but finite yearly number.

[Tyndmyr]

Gods have stats, they can be killed.

The Abyss has literally an infinite amount of demons in it.

How much you wanna bet one of them will manage to kill a god?

This begs the question...how did it ever get taken over to begin with?

How do you create a literally infinite amount of demons? Or, if an infinite amount of demons exist already, how do you even inform them that you are in charge in any finite amount of time?

[Jeraa]

The Abyss itself creates the demons. And it can even revive slain demon lords if it chooses.

[Tvtyrant]

Actually Tanar'ri come from humanoid souls, while the Obyrith came straight out of the layer. And there being a finite number of humanoid souls, there is a finite number of Tanar'ri. (Check p. 28 of the Fiendish Codex 1).

[Dvandemon]

The Abyss itself creates the demons. And it can even revive slain demon lords if it chooses.

It's also sentient in some cases

[Grendus]

According to the FCII, they did try to take over the Abyss. They failed, and one of the angels leading the attack became Asmodeus and caused the fall. They ended up creating Baator and pitching Asmodeus off Celestia to get the taint out of the heavens.

I think for now they're content to let Asmodeus deal with abyss. With the Abyss and Baator engaged in the blood war, the gods are mostly free to deal with the eternal struggle between good and evil.

[Sims]

Couldn't a god use mass life and death to kill off all its inhabitants? You'd have to rest forever though. Hmmmm......what about 20-30 Living Widened Holy Word Spells? They could each be 40ft from you (like a circle).

It'd be like an eraser >:D

[Morph Bark]

That goes against the "Chaotic" nature of demons. That and a reflect shield takes care of most ranged attacks. Plus aren't gods immune to magic casted by people with lower rank? Not only that, but Divine Dodge makes it so you have a % miss chance.

This is all assuming the God is not aware of the caster, which isn't right because they have "Senses".

It is against the chaotic nature to use teamwork? I guess you've only played in Neutral or Lawful parties then.

Also, "most" ranged attacks doesn't matter. I specifically didn't specify what spells they'd use.

And gods aren't immune to magic.


Lastly, if we go with cheese, the demons have Pazuzu. :smallamused:

[LOTRfan]

[...]the demons have Pazuzu[...]

Demons win, no contest.

[Kish]

A god who could, somehow, actually kill all the demons in the Abyss...

...would still be simply erased by the Abyss itself.

[Sims]

It is against the chaotic nature to use teamwork? I guess you've only played in Neutral or Lawful parties then.

Also, "most" ranged attacks doesn't matter. I specifically didn't specify what spells they'd use.

And gods aren't immune to magic.


Lastly, if we go with cheese, the demons have Pazuzu. :smallamused:

I don't think its against chaotic nature to use teamwork, but I think they'd rather run in than plan out. If they do plan, I can see how it'd be unorthodox and catch someone off guard, but this isn't a person, this is a Greater god.

Could'nt the God just use some Guerilla warfare tactics? Teleport in, kill Demogorgon, teleport out, rest. Repeat as necesary.

[LOTRfan]

A god who could, somehow, actually kill all the demons in the Abyss...

...would still be simply erased by the Abyss itself.

Yes. As I mentioned before, the Abyss instantaneously slaughtered an entire pantheon of gods at one point in 3.5 lore. But it was written off as 'cheese.' :smallmad:

[Telonius]

This begs the question...how did it ever get taken over to begin with?

How do you create a literally infinite amount of demons? Or, if an infinite amount of demons exist already, how do you even inform them that you are in charge in any finite amount of time?

First you get an infinite number of Liches, and put them in a Timeless plane. Get them to start writing the words of the ritual that will create an infinite number of demons. Eventually they'll figure it out.

[Sims]

A god who could, somehow, actually kill all the demons in the Abyss...

...would still be simply erased by the Abyss itself.

I want to read up on this. That sounds ridiculus.

[LOTRfan]

How is it ridiculous?

[Sims]

How is it ridiculous?

How is it not?

[*.*.*.*]

How is it not?

THE source of chaos and evil of the universe wants you dead and it happens. What's wrong with that?

[Tyndmyr]

Lastly, if we go with cheese, the demons have Pazuzu. :smallamused:

Pazuzu is not a particularly potent combat monster. His utilization in Pun Pun is clever, but he's really more of a GM temptation device than anything else.

And the infinitely large, intelligent abyss is sorta silly.

[LOTRfan]

How is it not?

... I can answer that, but it would involve an indirect logic proof (because that's the only way I can prove undebatable facts), and we honestly don't need that.

It's in Fiendish Codex I, though. Specifically, the Loumara description.


Pazuzu is not a particularly potent combat monster. His utilization in Pun Pun is clever, but he's really more of a GM temptation device than anything else.

Ah, so we can't make Chuck Norris-esque Pazuzu jokes? :smallfrown::smalltongue:

[Sims]

THE source of chaos and evil of the universe wants you dead and it happens. What's wrong with that?

Why hasn't it done that to the current Good Aligned Gods? If it could just will someone dead, then why not do it to everything/everyone good. Why are good aligned creatures in existance?

This can't be accurate. That and Gods can make themselves undetectable. Just use Mass Life and Death to kill all the inhabitants, then teleport to Celestia.

[LOTRfan]

Why hasn't it done that to the current Good Aligned Gods? If it could just will someone dead, then why not do it to everything/everyone good. Why are good aligned creatures in existance?

This can't be accurate. That and Gods can make themselves undetectable. Just use Mass Life and Death to kill all the inhabitants, then teleport to Celestia.

The Abyss was only able to do what it did because the goods were in the Abyss. Most good-aligned creatures don't live in the abyss.

[*.*.*.*]

Why hasn't it done that to the current Good Aligned Gods? If it could just will someone dead, then why not do it to everything/everyone good. Why are good aligned creatures in existance?

This can't be accurate. That and Gods can make themselves undetectable. Just use Mass Life and Death to kill all the inhabitants, then teleport to Celestia.

Maybe because they must be in the abyss? Maybe because they don't actively endanger the abyss?

The Evil Gods are just as strong as the good gods, you keep ignoring this fact. Don't forget about infernals and the such in the abyss, plenty of epic level shiz down there.

[The Cat Goddess]

Couldn't a god use mass life and death to kill off all its inhabitants? You'd have to rest forever though. Hmmmm......what about 20-30 Living Widened Holy Word Spells? They could each be 40ft from you (like a circle).

It'd be like an eraser >:D

There are certain (read: many) sections of the Abyss where [Good] spells simply don't work. And while a Diety may be immune to Planar Traits, his spells (outside of his personal space) would not be.

[Mordokai]

You say Abyss is cheesful... and yet, you keep coming up with more far fetched and cheesy tactics than Abyss ever was? Then it was written to be? Than it is known to be?

See the problem there?

[Sims]

You say Abyss is cheesful... and yet, you keep coming up with more far fetched and cheesy tactics than Abyss ever was? Then it was written to be? Than it is known to be?

See the problem there?

Fighting fire with fire XD

[Mordokai]

Abyss has more fire than you do.

Deal.

[LOTRfan]

But it isn't cheese.

That's like saying that the hydra is full of cheese, because it has the natural ability to make several bite attacks.

Or saying how a wizard is full of cheese, because magic missile always hits its target.

[Sims]

Abyss has more fire than you do.

Deal.

You sound like one of those guys who watch to much anime that are trying to sound wise >_>.

[LOTRfan]

He's not trying to sound wise. He's trying to be blunt; There is no way any creature except possibly an Overdeity that has even the remotest chance of conquering the Abyss, and even Overdeities aren't guaranteed to win.

Perhaps things are different in your campaign world, but this seems to be assuming the basic D&D setting. In that situation, the Abyss just wins. The Gods cannot win. No, not even then.

[The Glyphstone]

You sound like one of those guys who watch to much anime that are trying to sound wise >_>.

Confucius say: God who try to conquer Abyss lose.

A wise man, Confucius.

[Kish]

How is it not?
This is as bankrupt an argument as it's possible to make. "I assert that X is ridiculous! You say it's not? I challenge you to prove that it's not, in lieu of offering a smidgin of support for my assertion!"

You keep making arguments based on the premise, "Any single god is more powerful than the Abyss." The reality is, "The Abyss is more powerful than all the gods together." You have no grounds to call the Abyss destroying the gods ridiculous in light of the things you've claimed a god should be able to do. In fact, I'd say you're not in a good position to bring in the word "ridiculous."

[Tyndmyr]

The reality is that the Abyss does not have stats, and therefore, I have no way of actually measuring it against the gods to determine relative power levels.

[LOTRfan]

The Abyss doesn't need stats. It killed an entire pantheon in but a moment, and absorbed their power to create a new layer.

How much more proof is need to prove that the Abyss will win against any one Greater Deity?

[Zaydos]

I'll point out that gods have interfered in the Blood War before. They died. The fiends can, and will, kill ever single worshiper of a Power on every Prime world. That's how the tanar'ri can kill a god, because the only thing that'll get those mad berks to truly band together is a bigger fish.

That and the kind of bleh stuff about the Abyss killing gods (really it's divinely morphic, gods can change it at a whim).

[Chess435]

I demand that the Theoretical Optimizers on this site create a 20 level build to kill the Abyss! :smallbiggrin:

[Sims]

This is as bankrupt an argument as it's possible to make. "I assert that X is ridiculous! You say it's not? I challenge you to prove that it's not, in lieu of offering a smidgin of support for my assertion!"

You keep making arguments based on the premise, "Any single god is more powerful than the Abyss." The reality is, "The Abyss is more powerful than all the gods together." You have no grounds to call the Abyss destroying the gods ridiculous in light of the things you've claimed a god should be able to do. In fact, I'd say you're not in a good position to bring in the word "ridiculous."


The reality is that the Abyss does not have stats, and therefore, I have no way of actually measuring it against the gods to determine relative power levels.


The Abyss doesn't need stats. It killed an entire pantheon in but a moment, and absorbed their power to create a new layer.

How much more proof is need to prove that the Abyss will win against any one Greater Deity?

Well, I'm done. I guess you really can't take the Abyss. So I will concede this. -_-

[Tyndmyr]

The Abyss doesn't need stats. It killed an entire pantheon in but a moment, and absorbed their power to create a new layer.

How much more proof is need to prove that the Abyss will win against any one Greater Deity?

Right, but we have no idea why they died. Hell, gods vary wildly in power and spec. Some of them are downright ridiculously built, and a great many of them have apparently overlooked prestige classes.

It's literally just fluff saying that, in the past, the Abyss pwned a bunch of gods. We don't really know how or why it did, in any sort of mechanical sense.

It's like the Lady of Pain. Is she powerful? Well...yeah. It would seem so. But you can't really get anything even vaguely objective from that.

[Lord Vampyre]

Your basic premise is flawed. The problem is that you are assuming that there is nothing more powerful than a "God" in D&D. You also ignore the fact that there are EVIL dieties.

My main problem with your question is that you seem to be attacking the very fabric of the multiverse itself. Asking why a God can't take over the Abyss, is like asking why an atom is made up of protons, electrons, and neutrons. There are just some things that have to be taken as being a fact. From these "facts" we build our understanding of the universe.

In order to play the game, we have to accept that some things were merely created the way they are. You are free to run a campaign in which one all powerful god has conquered the Abyss, eradicated evil, and everyone lives a happy and fruitful life. The problem is that the only way I could possibly imagine such a game actually being interesting is if the players were playing evil characters. Otherwise, I imagine the game getting pretty boring real quick.

[Morph Bark]

The Abyss doesn't need stats. It killed an entire pantheon in but a moment, and absorbed their power to create a new layer.

Interest. Mine. You have it. Explain. This layer. I want.

[Tyndmyr]

Your basic premise is flawed. The problem is that you are assuming that there is nothing more powerful than a "God" in D&D. You also ignore the fact that there are EVIL dieties.

I assume this is directed at someone else. Power is not the same as being immortal in D&D. Even mortals have killed gods, and mortals are generally less powerful than gods by a wild degree.


My main problem with your question is that you seem to be attacking the very fabric of the multiverse itself. Asking why a God can't take over the Abyss, is like asking why an atom is made up of protons, electrons, and neutrons. There are just some things that have to be taken as being a fact. From these "facts" we build our understanding of the universe.

The abyss is not like the rest of the multiverse. This much is pretty clear. You're not attacking all of, just that bit. The question of why it's different is a pretty reasonable one.


In order to play the game, we have to accept that some things were merely created the way they are. You are free to run a campaign in which one all powerful god has conquered the Abyss, eradicated evil, and everyone lives a happy and fruitful life. The problem is that the only way I could possibly imagine such a game actually being interesting is if the players were playing evil characters. Otherwise, I imagine the game getting pretty boring real quick.

Look, conquering the abyss does not mean the end of all conflict everywhere. Oh, no.

[LOTRfan]

Interest. Mine. You have it. Explain. This layer. I want.

Alright. Well, there are two instances of Gods ripping an entire layer out of the Abyss, but its always seemed to me that they were meant to be the same.

In the first instance, first mentioned in the The Crawling Jungle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030414x) involves Azuvidexus, an archrival of Demogorgon. Azuvidexus does something to make Demogorgon extremely angry, so Demogorgon does something terrible and blames it on Azuvidexus. Cue an entire pantheon of Gods coming into the Abyss and ripping the layer of N'gharl right out of the plane itself.

In the other occasion, it is mentioned that an entire pantheon tore a layer out of the Abyss (notice the similarity). The Abyss, in order to regain the layer, slaughtered the pantheon and used their corpses to recreate a new layer, the Dreaming Gulf. From the dead minds of the gods came a new demon breed, the Loumara. FCI has more information on it.

[Tvtyrant]

Destroying the Abyss wouldn't be that hard really (depending on your definition of "destroy"). There is an ocean that connects all the layers together and is the common way of traveling between them. Huck a Sphere of Annihilation or three into is and watch the ocean dry up, destroying Demogorgon and Dagons layers outright and the connections between the layers everywhere.

[Frozen_Feet]

this brings up a good point: Gods as we know them in D&D are more like ascended beings than actual gods. The overdeities are closer to "actual gods".

Uh... no. Fluff-wise, you are somewhat correct. But if you take time to look at all the qualities possessed by gods by D&D 3.5 RAW, you'll note that they're vastly more powerful than some mythological gods. People throw around "if it has stats, it can be killed", but you should not swallow that before looking what those stats are, and what would actually need to be done to kill them.

It's much, much harder than you'd think, based on that sentence. Much, much harder.

[Sims]

Alright. Well, there are two instances of Gods ripping an entire layer out of the Abyss, but its always seemed to me that they were meant to be the same.

In the first instance, first mentioned in the The Crawling Jungle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030414x) involves Azuvidexus, an archrival of Demogorgon. Azuvidexus does something to make Demogorgon extremely angry, so Demogorgon does something terrible and blames it on Azuvidexus. Cue an entire pantheon of Gods coming into the Abyss and ripping the layer of N'gharl right out of the plane itself.

In the other occasion, it is mentioned that an entire pantheon tore a layer out of the Abyss (notice the similarity). The Abyss, in order to regain the layer, slaughtered the pantheon and used their corpses to recreate a new layer, the Dreaming Gulf. From the dead minds of the gods came a new demon breed, the Loumara. FCI has more information on it.


Was this so-called Pantheon filled with Greater Gods? Or Demi Gods? Just out of curiosity.

[Lord Vampyre]

I assume this is directed at someone else. Power is not the same as being immortal in D&D. Even mortals have killed gods, and mortals are generally less powerful than gods by a wild degree.

Actually, I was directing it at the OP's original question. And no, I never said that Power was the same as being immortal in D&D. And yes per cannon less powerful beings have killed more powerful beings, I'm not arguing that.


The abyss is not like the rest of the multiverse. This much is pretty clear. You're not attacking all of, just that bit. The question of why it's different is a pretty reasonable one.

No, it isn't the whole of the multiverse, but its rules have been established. You either accept the RAI, or go into meaningless discussion on why gravity works. Science has proven that we can know how things work, but the why of it will always be a true mystery.



Look, conquering the abyss does not mean the end of all conflict everywhere. Oh, no.

Ah, but for a Diety who has single-handedly conquered an infinite plane with each layer extending out to infinity. The rest of the multiverse is only a hop, skip, and a jump away. Just say bye-bye Baator.

[Kish]

Was this so-called Pantheon filled with Greater Gods? Or Demi Gods? Just out of curiosity.
Most so-called pantheons contain greater, intermediate, lesser, and demigods.

...why are we sticking in "so-called," now?

[Sims]

Most so-called pantheons contain greater, intermediate, lesser, and demigods.

...why are we sticking in "so-called," now?

It could have been 3 dumbass demi-gods for all I know.

[LOTRfan]

There were at least six deities. As said before, there is usually a mix of all kinds. In most published pantheons, there is at least one Greater Deity, one or two Intermediate Deities, along with several of Lesser or Demigod status.

[Alleine]

It's relevant to note that the Abyss would not be on its own. Not only the forces of evil, but the forces of balance would chip in. Mechanus, its inhabitants, and various assorted other races would likely intervene on behalf of the abyss in order to maintain balance between good and evil.

[Anxe]

Because genocide and war are evil acts, so the good gods would cease to be good?

[Chess435]

I wonder how the Wish and the Word would fare........ :smallconfused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Because genocide and war are evil acts, so the good gods would cease to be good?

Because there's a shard of pure evil at the center of it, and that's what corrupted Asmodeus, the elementals, the primordials, and Tharizdun, the chained god, and it'll corrupt anyone else who touches it, and if no one gets rid of it (which requires interacting with it), the Abyss will remain evil.

At least according to 4e canon.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Another question is how is a good god going to keep being turned over to the dark side. The longer he stays there fighting the more corrupted he is likely to become.

This is what I think is the most likely to happen. They'd probably start out making relatively trivial compromises that eventually get more and more significant until the good god that you started out with either ends up absorbed by The Abyss somehow or they turn into a demon lord themselves.

This gets into a lot of my personal views on The Abyss, but I also think that the same thing would happen to evil gods that tried to take over The Abyss from the demon lords residing there. They'd end up becoming more and more demonic until eventually they would end up just supplanting what they were trying to conquer in the first place.

Either way, The Abyss still wins.

[Tvtyrant]

Because there's a shard of pure evil at the center of it, and that's what corrupted Asmodeus, the elementals, the primordials, and Tharizdun, the chained god, and it'll corrupt anyone else who touches it, and if no one gets rid of it (which requires interacting with it), the Abyss will remain evil.

At least according to 4e canon.

Which brings up the question of whether we can use cannon from one edition to another, since each edition in some ways contradicts the last one.

[LOTRfan]

Which brings up the question of whether we can use cannon from one edition to another, since each edition in some ways contradicts the last one.

We can use 2e to 3.Xe, but WotC have stated that they are not relying of 3.Xe at all when it comes to fluff, so I doubt we can use 4e in this situation.

I have no idea about 1e or AD&D.

[Sims]

If a God always rolls a natural 20, then couldn't they Instant success on a spellcraft check on some kind of uber epic spell that destroys planes?

[Jeraa]

Natural 20s are not instant successes with skill checks. If it were, 1 out of every 20 times an average commoner tries, he can walk on water.

And even it a natural 20 did work, deities do not automatically get a Natural 20.


Always Maximize Roll: Greater deities (rank 16–20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there. A d20 should still be rolled and used to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already.
If they automatically got a natural 20, then that bolded part would not be needed. A die is still rolled to see if it is a critical threat, but when figuring the attack bonus, you add +20 regardless of what was actually rolled.

As for epic spells, Boccob is the god of magic, and can still "only" get a 147 on his Spellcraft check, meaning there are epic spells listed in the book that even the god of magic can not cast.

Also, people have mentioned a deity using Life and Death or Mass Life and Death against the demons. It won't work. Life and Death only works against mortals. Outsiders arn't mortals.

[Jeraa]

If a God always rolls a natural 20, then couldn't they Instant success on a spellcraft check on some kind of uber epic spell that destroys planes?

There is no evidence that such a spell can done with epic magic. However, it is possible to have a spell that steals a gods power and transfers it to you. (At least in Forgotten Realms.) And if we are assuming some random God attacking, why not assume some random epic spellcasting demon lord? Let the god attack. Soon enough, there will be no god, and the demon lord is now a demon god.

Luckily, Karsus’s avatar (the become a god spell I mentioned) was only in second edition, and was never updated to 3rd. Wasn't actually meant to be used by players either, but it is presented in the 2nd edition Netheril: Encyclopedia Arcana.

Note to self: Do not stand on a magical floating city, casting a tremendously powerful magic spell, while stealing the power of the goddess of magic. Bad things happen...

[Kish]

If a God always rolls a natural 20, then couldn't they Instant success on a spellcraft check on some kind of uber epic spell that destroys planes?
And here I thought you'd accepted that the gods cannot godmode (heh) away the Abyss.

[Jeraa]

Let this be an example. NEVER stat up gods. Doing so only serves to severely limit what they can do. The only things that should have stats are those things the PCs fight, or who fight along side the PCs. If your game has gotten to the point where only the gods themselves can challenge the players, its time to retire those characters and start over.

[LOTRfan]

Let this be an example. NEVER stat up gods. Doing so only serves to severely limit what they can do. The only things that should have stats are those things the PCs fight, or who fight along side the PCs. If your game has gotten to the point where only the gods themselves can challenge the players, its time to retire those characters and start over.

But killing gods is fun. :smallfrown:

Besides, the most powerful of them (the overdeities) transcend the multiverse altogether, so they don't have stats. They are the truly omnipotent ones.

[The Glyphstone]

If a God always rolls a natural 20, then couldn't they Instant success on a spellcraft check on some kind of uber epic spell that destroys planes?

Because the Evil deities will think of this first, and instantly destroy the Good planes - Evil is always more immediately willing to resort to genocide than Good, it's part of being Evil. Where are your abyss-crushing gods now?

[Zaydos]

Technically the Abyss does have some printed crunch rules about it in 3.X Manual of the Planes. One is that it's divinely morphic, meaning that gods can reshape it to their desires, although they cannot change it's alignment traits. Far as I know it's the only concrete crunch on how deities and planes interact.

How it could kill gods doesn't actually make sense in any of the 3.0 or earlier fluff I've seen. Seems like they were just trying to do something awesome to make the new type of demons for the Fiendish Codex and didn't bother reading the rules for the Abyss.

[Jeraa]

Because the Evil deities will think of this first, and instantly destroy the Good planes - Evil is always more immediately willing to resort to genocide than Good, it's part of being Evil. Where are your abyss-crushing gods now?

It becomes something similar to the real world, with WMDs. You may have them, but so does your enemy. If you start throwing them around, then the enemy starts throwing them back. Mutually Assured Destruction. So even if such magic were possible, no one would use it for fear of it being used against them.

[Alleran]

As for epic spells, Boccob is the god of magic, and can still "only" get a 147 on his Spellcraft check
That being said, he also isn't very optimised (not many gods are).

Just through use of artifacts, items and spells from a couple of splatbooks (and Dragon), you can push a 21st level character to a rather high Spellcraft modifier, and a god of magic should definitely be better done than a 21st level wizard. Something on the order of:

24 ranks
+30 untyped (Nether Scrolls, Lost Empires of Faerun)
+20 competence (Extract Gift spell, FCI, robbing an Infernal of its knowledge)
+30 sacred (magic item)
+3 Skill Focus (feat)
+10 Epic Skill Focus (feat or the Codex Hammer, from Dragon #297)
+22 INT bonus (18 INT + 2 INT for a Gray Elf + 5 INT from levels + 5 INT from Tomes + 12 INT from an epic Headband of Intellect + 8 INT from Halruuan Great Elixirs + 1 INT from Soul Elixirs [another artifact item that gives an untyped INT bonus and stack with each other if you can find enough of them] + 3 INT from Venerable age)
+4 insight bonus (Shadar Pool, an artifact)

That's a +143 (taking 10 is a 153 total). Granted, it requires a bit of splatbook diving to pick them all up, not to mention using artifacts, Dragon Magazine and having a questionable moral character (to take knowledge from an Infernal), but Boccob should be significantly higher than even that. And I didn't take into account using an Elixir of Eternity* to abuse the aging modifiers, either, or further abusing Soul Elixirs.

(* Basically, you become immune to death by old age. For every 100 years past Venerable, your STR, DEX and CON drop by 1 point each and you gain another +1 to INT, WIS and CHA. The physical ability scores can't drop below 1, though. Mental ones can keep on increasing forever. Just lock yourself up in a demiplane and abuse time traits to age ten thousand years in the space of a single day on the Material, and you'll have +100 INT. Sure, you'll be weak as a kitten, but you'll have godlike magic to make up for it.)

[holywhippet]

In terms of fluff, check out the novel Elminster in Hell. At one point the goddess of magic (Mystara, I think it was version 3.0 - the one that used to be Midnight the human mage) came to try and rescue him. She began blasting the crap out of everything in sight, but in the process began ripping open portals to the prime material plane. She had to pull back, not because she couldn't possibly win, but because the consequences of continuing on would be too severe.

[Sims]

So if a Greater God hypothetically had say a 555 on his Spellcraft and Psicraft Checks, whats kinds of things would he be capable of doing? :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

So if a Greater God hypothetically had say a 555 on his Spellcraft and Psicraft Checks, whats kinds of things would he be capable of doing? :smalltongue:

all of the things that a DM would allow, just like anything else.

[Sims]

all of the things that a DM would allow, just like anything else.

Hey thats actually a pretty good answer! XD

[Jeraa]

Depends on what he designed. One of the possible things he could do, is design an epic disentigrate spell, dealing 273d6 (about 955 damage on average) damage to one creature within 12,000 feet.

Or grant someone it touchs +133 to any ability score for 20 hours, or grant a creature 159 Spell Resistance for 20 hours. Or resurrect every dead creature within 12,000 feet, as long as they have been dead less than 200 years. Or ressurect any one creature that dies up to 5480 years ago (Assuming he has part of the body).

Or even scarier, he can make a very dangerous death spell. With a standard action, he can kill any creature with up to 5180 hit dice.

Another form of the death spell: Counts as a quickened spell, +100 on the save DC, +100 on checks to overcome the targets spell resistance, one creature within 300 feet with up to 1040 hitdice needs to make a Fortitude save (Minimum DC is 120, plus the casters appropriate casting stat modifier), or die. Just be glad gods are immune to death effects, as this spell will instantly slay any of the stated up gods in Deities and Demigods. None of the gods listed can make the Fortitude save, and the +100 bonus on checks to overcome SR is more than enough by itself to overcome their spell resistance.

[Tvtyrant]

Further proof that Epic simply doesn't work as written. We would be better off designing a series of 10, 11th and 12th level spells as a community then trying to discuss Epic magic as written.

[Jeraa]

Another form of the death spell: Counts as a quickened spell, +100 on the save DC, +100 on checks to overcome the targets spell resistance, one creature within 300 feet with up to 1040 hitdice needs to make a Fortitude save (Minimum DC is 120, plus the casters appropriate casting stat modifier), or die. Just be glad gods are immune to death effects, as this spell will instantly slay any of the stated up gods in Deities and Demigods. None of the gods listed can make the Fortitude save, and the +100 bonus on checks to overcome SR is more than enough by itself to overcome their spell resistance.

I can make this even scarier. Since most gods have less than 80 hit dice, a version of this spell could be made to effect 13 targets of up to 80 hit dice each. Now its even better that gods are immune to death effects, because otherwise this single spell would kill a pantheon worth of gods.

And note, all of the spells I mentioned have no ill effect on the caster, besides the huge amount of time and gold required to make them. Adding in mitigating factors like additional casters, or damage to the caster, can make the spells even stronger.

[Alleran]

And note, all of the spells I mentioned have no ill effect on the caster, besides the huge amount of time and gold required to make them.
Which for a god is almost completely immaterial anyway.

[Callos_DeTerran]

The Gods would fail. To elaborate on the 'the Abyss destroyed a pantheon' story, a pantheon of territorial gods discovered that a demon lord (Avisomething) was stealing their worshipers. Poaching basically. So they crushed the entire layer of the Abyss into a large gemstone. However this blatant attack on the Abyss 'woke it up', if only for a few moments, and (to quote the article the story was fleshed out in) 'lashed out like a hungry predator, destroying the pantheon in an instant'.

Their minds (apparently all that's left of them) continue to drift in what is now known as the Dreaming Gulf and gave rise to a new breed of demons, the lomuras while the Abyss, with an apparent threat no longer about, 'went back to sleep'. A pantheon of gods destroyed a single layer and were obliterated because they woke something far stronger then them in the process. No god tries to destroy the Abyss because to do so is suicide. Plenty of gods have tried to conquer the Abyss, but they don't have any more success then the demon lords and demon princes do. They'll control a layer or two, but demon lords/princes can utilize the 'divinely morphic' trait too which keeps gods from doing whatever the heck they want on layers beside their own and they just don't have the armies to conquer more then what they have.

This isn't including those deities that may have been corrupted by the Abyss, like some demon lords are, into something else. The only way to truly 'take over' the Abyss is to

A) Conquer Pazuzu, or at least hold the rifts that lead to other layers.
B) Kill massive numbers of demons and/or demon lords/princes, which seems to be part of the process of preparing the Abyss to shift to producing a new species.
C) Hold ones position. If you get forced out/back then it was all for nothing, the Abyss will just go back to what it was doing in the first place.
D) Improvise to keep tanari/demons from regrouping and in a 'weakened' state so they're no longer being actively produced by the Abyss.
E) Go kick an Over-deity in the groin and survive, cause if you accomplished the above steps then nothing else will ever hold a thrill for you anymore.

[Eldan]

There is, also, basically the balance argument.

Not necessarily in a "we must keep the balance!" way, though the Rilmani would probably do that.

But if the Abyss is destroyed, both evil and chaos are weakened on the planes. The Devils would turn their attention to either Celestia, or, more likely to me, the Slaad and Eladrin, to continue their anti-chaos campaign. Logically, the Eladrin would have to defend themselves. As the outsiders with the easiest way of accessing the prime, they'd most likely strike their, deprive the devils of souls. Which would weaken law, so the Modrons and possibly Celestial would have to interfere. And so on. Really, the result would be total war amongst all planes.

Furthermore, at least by Planescape logic, there is the belief argument: as long as mortals believe that there should be chaotic evil monstrosities lurking in the abyss, there will be chaotic evil monstrosities lurking in the abyss. Destroying the abyss can never work as long as people believe in the abyss. I'd assume the Abyss is a bit like 40k's warp in that respect: people have chaotic and evil feelings, they lie, steal, cheat, murder and hate. And as long as they do, there will be places in the multiverse to reflect0 that.

At best, you could probably achieve a shift, replace the Abyss with something new and, most likely, equally horrible.

[Runestar]

Fluffwise, some of the more powerful demon lords, such as Orcus and Demogorgon are actually on par with deities. Not to mention they would enjoy a home-ground advantage. Demogorgon once used force of will alone to reshape his homeplane and kill a few gods along with it.

Heck, fiendish codex even has the story of Ma Yuan, who has killed several gods himself.

So the reason why gods haven't yet conquered the abyss is that they simply are not powerful enough to pull off such a feat! :smalleek:

[Eldan]

The demon lords have at least one canonical advantage over the gods: their realms are much larger. Even the greater gods, those of rank 16-20, only have a realm with a 100 mile radius. While not many abyssal layers have a real size given, I'd imagine that at least Orcus, Graz'zt and Demogorgon have more than that, controlling several layers.

[hamishspence]

Grazzt is called out as holding 3 layers.

That's considered exceptional though.

[Eldan]

Orcus has two as well. Demogorgon has, I don't remember. Two or three?

[Alleran]

Orcus has two as well. Demogorgon has, I don't remember. Two or three?
One, or one and a half. He has the Gaping Maw, and has a long-standing agreement with Dagon, whose dominion sort of "starts" somewhere in the depths of the oceans in Demogorgon's domain. He doesn't destroy Dagon, and Dagon gives him all his knowledge and assistance when necessary.

[Morph Bark]

Let this be an example. NEVER stat up gods. Doing so only serves to severely limit what they can do. The only things that should have stats are those things the PCs fight, or who fight along side the PCs. If your game has gotten to the point where only the gods themselves can challenge the players, its time to retire those characters and start over.

It all depends on how you wish to define "gods" in your setting. If you prefer to have gods of small rivers and forests rather than gods for entire concepts and all rivers and forests ever, like I have done at times, I usually make them Gestalt characters with a template or two.


Alright. Well, there are two instances of Gods ripping an entire layer out of the Abyss, but its always seemed to me that they were meant to be the same.

In the first instance, first mentioned in the The Crawling Jungle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030414x) involves Azuvidexus, an archrival of Demogorgon. Azuvidexus does something to make Demogorgon extremely angry, so Demogorgon does something terrible and blames it on Azuvidexus. Cue an entire pantheon of Gods coming into the Abyss and ripping the layer of N'gharl right out of the plane itself.

...

I now have a suitable end goal for my players. :smallamused:

[Tyndmyr]

Let this be an example. NEVER stat up gods. Doing so only serves to severely limit what they can do. The only things that should have stats are those things the PCs fight, or who fight along side the PCs. If your game has gotten to the point where only the gods themselves can challenge the players, its time to retire those characters and start over.

It defines them. It defines their interactions in a consistent fashion. I am comfortable with them having special abilities, ridiculously powerful stats, and such, but defining them in some way makes them fit better into the world.

I mean, sure...we know a buncha gods destroyed a level of the abyss, and the abyss then destroyed them. But we have no idea how to replicate such a fight. And would not playing through such an event be pretty epic?

And the whole "neutrals ensure balance" thing is BS. Evil in D&D is clearly much stronger than good. Even without the abyss, there is no shortage of evil nasties to counter good.

[Eldan]

Well, if we go by Planescape, the neutrals really kinda mostly screw up in the balance department anyway. There's the famous Rilmani claiming to being responsible for the near-destruction of Athas. Which was totally intended and not a spectacular failure, no Sir, never, we never fail, we wanted to blow it up.

[Seatbelt]

no Sir, never, we never fail, we wanted to blow it up.

They gave Mythbusters its own plane?

[Eldan]

They probably have a demiplane, somewhere between Mechanus (machines!), Acheron (collisions!) and the Plane of Fire (explosions!).

Planescape had a Rilmani NPC, who liked to brag about all the great deeds he had done for cosmic balance. Which involved counting down all the greatest catastrophies from other settings and claiming he was responsible for them. Among them was turning Athas into a desert.

[Mordokai]

This is totally off-topic, but Baldur's Gate had you fight a Rilmani mage, together with some of his guards. They were one of the final fights before you got to descend to the Demogorgons chamber in Watchers Keep and as such quite powerful.

Is there any connection between the two?

[Arcane_Secrets]

That being said, he also isn't very optimised (not many gods are).

Just through use of artifacts, items and spells from a couple of splatbooks (and Dragon), you can push a 21st level character to a rather high Spellcraft modifier, and a god of magic should definitely be better done than a 21st level wizard. Something on the order of:

[long list]



You could also include Divine Spell Focus. Assuming that Boccob has divine rank 16 (not unreasonable), this gives him a +26 bonus when using Spellcraft as a skill-bumping him up from +147 to +173.

[OrganicGolem]

I once ran a campaign where to deal with the level of the PCs and keep the gods god-like I doubled their effective level. I imagine in that scenario a Pantheon might have had a better chance at this task, but even still from the sound of it... not really.

[AslanCross]

Let me offer a different angle:

Why haven't the good gods wiped out the Abyss?

It makes for neither an interesting story nor enjoyable gaming world.

A world with no wrongs to right and no enemies to fight would be pretty boring to adventure in.

The opposite of the question is true, as well. What happens when the Abyss spills over and kills all of the good gods and all of the lawful gods? Everyone dies. Not very interesting. (Heck, that hasn't even happened in WH40K)

Why have neither the good nor the evil gods conquered the material plane? (Actually, that might be an interesting campaign idea.)
Because there's a balance to be struck, and for the most part, the gods allow mortals enough freedom to choose their own paths.

[Eldan]

Because, at least by older fluff, the Eladrin are the only ones able to go to the material plane unless summoned, and they aren't very interested in conquering.

[Morph Bark]

Because, at least by older fluff, the Eladrin are the only ones able to go to the material plane unless summoned, and they aren't very interested in conquering.

So that's how the elves and later 4E came to be, huh? :smallamused:

[Eldan]

Eh.

By Planescape and 3.X, the Eladrin are outsiders, not fey, and not really related to elves either. Also, they are forced to remain disguised at all times and never use their powers, so they can't really do much to the elves.

[Coidzor]

There's the question of why someone would want real estate that's practically worthless and actively trying to kill you or spawn something to kill you, especially in the case of the planar levels that have gained sapience, certainly.