3.5 scythe crit (did i go too far?)

[Zuljita]

I Gm a weekly 3.5 game with 5-6 players that are currently level 8
house rules
max HP per level
Monk is full BAB
Experimental character development/combat style strategy:
From the outset i decided to experiment with a mishmash of lethality depending on individual preference. If you submit a character background showing me that you are invested in the character beyond his dungeoncrawlability, I'll pull punches. Not doing this is okay! It means the dice will kill you when they kill you and you reroll that night, no penalties.

Current party
1 monk (modified slightly) /barb 6/bear warrior 2 (opting for lethal play)
Beguiler 8
Warlock 8
Ranger 8 (bow specialty)
Spirit Shaman 8 (opting for lethal play)

We are playing a juiced up version of RHOD... basically the beguiler has been making short work of anything remotely dangerous by generous use of save or suck spells up till now. I'm experimenting with ToB characters for iron heart surge, but I don't want to make him feel useless either. The players assault the rhest town hall after alerting the guards, so the bladebearer (upgraded to a lvl 6 warblade with a scythe), the 4 Ogres (originally 6 but a player dropped), a young adult black draggie being ridden by a goblin ranger), and an ettin (so far) are all gathered up ready to defend the town hall.

due to some awkward positioning, the spirit shaman ends up in melee alongside the barbarian facing off against one lone ECL 7 hobgoblin warblade. what came next was a little scary. The warblade uses a maneuver to attack both of them in one round (can't remember the name and i'm AFB)... and crits the shaman doing 65 HP of damage in one solid slice. Spirit shaman is down to single digit HP. for whatever twisted reason, every mob crit vs players has been against this poor shaman, and he has nearly died 3 times all because of crits. Up until last night, the group has trusted me to only be as lethal as I say I will. but when the 65 damage total was announced, the table went silent. The beguiler (who is by far the most invested in his character) says quietly " that would have one shotted me".

Note: the Shaman opted for lethal mode.

The game progresses and the shaman pulls through, for now (had to end mid fiight). but the beguiler says "I may need to get a backup character". I do all my rolls behind the screen but when they hit a lethal mode character i dont hold back and let the dice fall where they will. if it had hit the beguiler it never would have hit as hard. That said, the beguiler continues to mention how he now feels the need for a contingency plan in case his char dies...

so the questions: is an enemy that can spike that high on the damage just dirty pool at this level? is the beguiler just over-reacting? Am i worrying too much about the beguiler? am i crazy for putting the 2 differing playstyles (wargame centric and plot centric) at the same table?

[Douglas]

Have you informed the players of the difference? If so, I'd think you could just remind the Beguiler's player of that and assure him that, while he can die, you won't allow a fluke of the dice such as that crit to be the cause.

[Greenish]

MM bog standard orcs used to have great axes (x3 crit) in 3.0, I am told. For 3.5, WotC changed those to falchions. Make of that what you will.

[Eldariel]

MM bog standard orcs used to have great axes (x3 crit) in 3.0, I am told. For 3.5, WotC changed those to falchions. Make of that what you will.

That said, a Falchion is sufficient (and indeed, crit is more likely) to one-shot a 1st level character. Less lethal later on, though. But apparently WoTC didn't like their own crit rules, so they tried to pull back a bit with default NPCs; go figure...

[KillianHawkeye]

So why didn't you make the Shaman do a save versus massive damage?



Anyway, 65 damage with a lucky crit at level 8 is something the players need to be aware can happen. It shouldn't happen a lot, but they should be able to take it when it does.

Besides, they should have gotten the Staff of Life in Vrath Keep if they did a proper search of the place (unless they've used it up already).

[Bobby Archer]

Like Douglas said, make sure the players are aware of the difference. Even if they are, though, a game where the PCs are variably killable is pretty unusual in my experience. It's not too surprising that, even if your Beguiler knows intellectually that his character's safe, he reacts that way to seeing someone else take a shot that would have one-shotted him.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So why didn't you make the Shaman do a save versus massive damage?

Because massive damage is an optional rule. It's not houseruling not to use it, it's houseruling to use it.

[Boci]

I'm experimenting with ToB characters for iron heart surge, but I don't want to make him feel useless either.

The NPC would need to use a standard action and a 3rd level maneuvres. That's not useless.

[Kylarra]

Because massive damage is an optional rule. It's not houseruling not to use it, it's houseruling to use it.Actually, massive damage is RAW, scaling massive damage DC is the variant.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage

[olentu]

Because massive damage is an optional rule. It's not houseruling not to use it, it's houseruling to use it.

I am reasonably sure that massive damage is the default rule.

[Jude_H]

Backup characters are a good thing. Keep them just that antsy, if only to avoid in-session character building.

[Dralnu]

As you've noticed, as the DM you want to avoid things that have a high chance of 1-shotting the party. High critters, charge builds, SoD spells, or anything else that does an absurd amount of damage per hit all fall into this category. These things should be used sparingly and the party should have a fair chance at countering such a potentially lethal scenerio.

That said, I don't think you did anything wrong. It's an incredibly rare occurance and the players who opt lethal need to know that there's a real chance of death or else it's a mislabel.

One thing you could do is avoid x4 crit multiplying weapons in the future. Otherwise keep on truckin' and don't feel bad.

[ericgrau]

x4 Crits, save or dies, etc. are bad to overuse on players. They rarely work, but when they do it can mean the end of a character. PCs rarely fight on even ground, otherwise every fight would be a 50:50 shot at TPK. Desperation tactics that have a low chance of extreme effect favor the losing side, b/c that's better than the horrible chances they have otherwise. Thus in the hands of monsters such things are more powerful than normal.

At the same time I've had DMs who average a PC death every session or two. In which case such things would not be out of place, though anti-climatic.

[Boci]

Alternativly replace the extra damage for crit multipliers of x3 and 4. Staggered, slwoed, dazed, stunned. Although you will want to talk to the PCs about this first.

[FMArthur]

I prefer to avoid pitting the players against enemies who have a rare chance of instantly slaying them. If it doesn't happen, they or their weapon are on average weaker than normal. If it does happen, someone just died in a possibly inevitable way - particularly if you keep sending them against instant-kill threats on a regular basis, since only one need succeed to ruin a player's day.

Really, if I were playing and was confronted with a squad of elite mooks wielding scythes, I would surrender before risking entering melee with them, no questions asked.

[Anxe]

What happened is exactly how I like to run my campaigns. The PCs should get close to death in their combats. That's the way they can feel heroic.

[Zuljita]

Have you informed the players of the difference? If so, I'd think you could just remind the Beguiler's player of that and assure him that, while he can die, you won't allow a fluke of the dice such as that crit to be the cause.

I tried this... hes still awful nervous...


So why didn't you make the Shaman do a save versus massive damage?

Besides, they should have gotten the Staff of Life in Vrath Keep if they did a proper search of the place (unless they've used it up already).

he made his save, thankfully, if he had died at that moment it would have taken some serious fudging to keep it from being a TPK...

I took that item away because it was already too easy with the beguiler's massive debuffs (glitterdust is doom!), and because i was already doing modular difficulty to fit each player's style.


The NPC would need to use a standard action and a 3rd level maneuvres. That's not useless.

I hadnt realized that, still pretty new to ToB. I will make use of these more in the future.



One thing you could do is avoid x4 crit multiplying weapons in the future. Otherwise keep on truckin' and don't feel bad.

thanks for this. makes me feel a little better.



Really, if I were playing and was confronted with a squad of elite mooks wielding scythes, I would surrender before risking entering melee with them, no questions asked.
I think you are a wise man.
I feel a bit bad for the shaman who the dice seem to want to kill... in the opening marauder attack encounter he got arrow critted... the mook practically had to roll the 20 to hit... the arrow put him in the negatives and he managed to self stabilize before the warlock stole his wand of CLW and patched him up.


What happened is exactly how I like to run my campaigns. The PCs should get close to death in their combats. That's the way they can feel heroic.
It may well end very well once its all said and done. Im just worried about my players in the meantime...