Owod question human with blood and gnoses

[Prax4788]

I have a player who cant decide what to play

he wants to try to get some werewolf gifts and blood points so simple put is this possible


ideas i have considered are letting him be a mage who can create Gnoses and blood points

or a kinfolk who is also a ghoul

but im a little over my head

[TroubleBrewing]

The templates are mutually exclusive, sadly.

If you're GMing, though, it's entirely up to you.

[Prax4788]

The templates are mutually exclusive, sadly.

If you're GMing, though, it's entirely up to you.

sadly i am not the Gm the rules given to us was
if we can get the resource we can learn the powers
so if we can get blood we can learn vampire powers and stuff

i already found the anansi that has gnoses and blood but no rage

[Dingle]

2 things:

1: is it possible?

well, actual werewolves generally don't take well to vampire blood,
and kin verry rarely have gifts or gnosis (might only be an optional rule to make it possible), and definately no rage (if they did, they'd be werewolves).

So someone like that might not be possible uner standard rules, and even then, they'd be unique (1 in several generations worldwide kinds of levels)

Gaia (or some other major spirit) has given this person something very special, probably for some really important purpose, and they've turned thier back on it to serve some vampire.

2: getting your head over stuff

You seem to be running a crossover game of some sort, and there's a few things you should know about that.
Although every game uses the same core mechanics and charachter generaton generally follows the same process, they aren't designed to work together.

There are some differences in rules from game to game, generally things like the effects and difficulty of a headshot. The settings and creation stories are also somewhat contradictory.
For these reasons, I'd suggest you pick one game, and use it when any contradictions arise.

A bigger problem is that the themes and power levels vary greatly from game to game. (I don't have time to give all the details, but you can have a look at a more in-depth discussion on some of my previous posts)

You can get around these problems by using NWOD, which was designed to all fit together, but it's a different system (kind of like 4th ed d&d)



I think that you should be considering why your player wants both vampire and werewolf stuff to ensure that everyone's happy.


If you can figure it out, I can help you out and give further suggestions.
likes werewolf powers, but not werewolf society?
wants to try several new things at once?
wants to play a special-snowflake?
bored with regular supernaturals?
trying to be a munchkin?
something I haven't considered?
a combination of the above?

[Prax4788]

2 things:

1: is it possible?

well, actual werewolves generally don't take well to vampire blood,
and kin verry rarely have gifts or gnosis (might only be an optional rule to make it possible), and definately no rage (if they did, they'd be werewolves).

So someone like that might not be possible uner standard rules, and even then, they'd be unique (1 in several generations worldwide kinds of levels)

Gaia (or some other major spirit) has given this person something very special, probably for some really important purpose, and they've turned thier back on it to serve some vampire.

2: getting your head over stuff

You seem to be running a crossover game of some sort, and there's a few things you should know about that.
Although every game uses the same core mechanics and charachter generaton generally follows the same process, they aren't designed to work together.

There are some differences in rules from game to game, generally things like the effects and difficulty of a headshot. The settings and creation stories are also somewhat contradictory.
For these reasons, I'd suggest you pick one game, and use it when any contradictions arise.

A bigger problem is that the themes and power levels vary greatly from game to game. (I don't have time to give all the details, but you can have a look at a more in-depth discussion on some of my previous posts)

You can get around these problems by using NWOD, which was designed to all fit together, but it's a different system (kind of like 4th ed d&d)



I think that you should be considering why your player wants both vampire and werewolf stuff to ensure that everyone's happy.


If you can figure it out, I can help you out and give further suggestions.
likes werewolf powers, but not werewolf society?
wants to try several new things at once?
wants to play a special-snowflake?
bored with regular supernaturals?
trying to be a munchkin?
something I haven't considered?
a combination of the above?
this is the info i was looking for thank you

[comicshorse]

There are always Abominations (f you want to embrace that rather overpowered bit of OWoD background)

[Prax4788]

There are always Abominations (f you want to embrace that rather overpowered bit of OWoD background)

can u tell me a bit more please

[Talakeal]

I was under the impression that anyone could be a ghoul, kinfolk, hedge mage, etc, if they wanted to dip into the powers of another supernatural. It will take a lot of books if you want to make full use of such hybrid characters, usually the player's guide and the storyteller's guide of both games involved.

PC Abominations are not terribly overpowered compared to standard garou, they need a lot of experience points to burn to get their vampire disciplines up and running, and the innate downsides to being an abomination, permanent harano for example, outweight the innate vampire abilities imo.

If memory serves Abominations are basically vampires and werewolves at the same time, with the powers and weaknessess of each. They are permanently in Harano, which means they can never spend willpower for a bonus success and must spend a willpower point at the start of each scene or be at half dice pool, and they also can never gain gnosis or learn gifts from most natural spirits. They keep whatever gifts or gnosis they may have began with.

[Dingle]

What are the rules?

What do you start with?
human?
standard supernatural of some sort?
any thing you like?
xp?

What is the campaign premise?

Do you need teachers to learn powers?


Why do you want to combine supernaturals?
variety?
power? (as talakeal mentioned, it's not always strictly better. in fact, even without harano, vampire abilities are a strict downgrade for werewolves (you can now pay for stuff you did for free, and have more expensive powers)

With answers to these questions, I can give advantages and disadvantages for most of your options.

[Wings of Peace]

Does oWoD have Goetic Magic? If so he could use that as a mage to bind a spirit to himself and be "sort of" like a werewolf, in that he'll be a combat machine with a spiritual slant.

[Dingle]

The people posessed by spirits are known as Formori (that name's specifically for banes, Drones are the weaver equivalent)

incidentally, Formori can combine with most of the other supernaturals.
they can get thier powers by taking flaws like addiction, short lifespan, and derrangements.

see freak legion and the book of the weaver

all for the low, low cost of most of your free will, and enmity of regular garou

[comicshorse]

PC Abominations are not terribly overpowered compared to standard garou, they need a lot of experience points to burn to get their vampire disciplines up and running, and the innate downsides to being an abomination, permanent harano for example, outweight the innate vampire abilities imo.

If memory serves Abominations are basically vampires and werewolves at the same time, with the powers and weaknessess of each. They are permanently in Harano, which means they can never spend willpower for a bonus success and must spend a willpower point at the start of each scene or be at half dice pool, and they also can never gain gnosis or learn gifts from most natural spirits. They keep whatever gifts or gnosis they may have began with.

This covers most of it, though I thought they could gain Gnosis and don't remeber them being permanently in Harano but its been a bit.
Basically Abominations are Werewolves that some dumb Vampire has decided to Embrace ( and one of the reasons White Wolf tried to sue the amkers of the UNDERWORLD movie :smallsmile:). When this happens the Werewolf gets a Gnosis roll if he succeds, he dies. If he fails, he dies. Only if he BOTCHES the roll does he become a Abomination. They are therefore amazingly rare.
Abominations are undead Werewolves with both vampiric disciplines and Werewolf Gifts and the ability to Rage and pump blood. However as well as the strengths of both races they have the weaknesses of both Werewolves and Vampires as well.
They are loathed by Spirits as undead abominations and so no Spirit will teach them knew Gifts or co-operate with them in the slightest (apart from maybe Wyrm spirits). Other Werewolves regard them as a travesty of their race and kill them on sight.

EDIT:
Just checked White Wolf's web-site
Abominations start with three points of their Clan's Disciplines and gain the Clan flaw
They lose two Glory, three Honour and three Wisdom renown
They can never raise their Gnosis but can regain it after its spent
They don't Regenerate but can spend Blood to heal
They can learn new Gifts from Wyrm spirits
They ARE permanently in Harano

[LibraryOgre]

There's also the were-spiders, whose name I have forgotten. They have blood points, though they're unable to use them (at base) like Kindred are, and they have gifts.

Is it that the player WANTS to have both of these things, or wants to be able to achieve things like what these two can do? Because if it's the second, the easy answer is a Dreamspeaker or Verbena, with Life and Spirit magic. Work out deals with spirits (i.e. Gift-equivalents) and use life magic to boost and heal your body (blood point equivalents).

[Prax4788]

There's also the were-spiders, whose name I have forgotten. They have blood points, though they're unable to use them (at base) like Kindred are, and they have gifts.

Is it that the player WANTS to have both of these things, or wants to be able to achieve things like what these two can do? Because if it's the second, the easy answer is a Dreamspeaker or Verbena, with Life and Spirit magic. Work out deals with spirits (i.e. Gift-equivalents) and use life magic to boost and heal your body (blood point equivalents).
your speaking of the anansi i mentioned them earlier in the post

[Caliphbubba]

I can think of a couple of options that may or may not have been mentioned yet. All of them are pretty janky though:

1st. A Kinfolk(a merit), with Gnosis from another merit, who is a Ghoul(from yet another merit). it ends up being like 15 points in merits and maybe even more if you want to get into having more than 1 dot of a vampiric disipline, I think there is ANOTHER merit called "Powerful Regnet" or something like that, that allows more dots. Pretty janky in that it will require tons of merits.

2nd. A skinchanger (a kinfolk that murders and creats a coat of the pelts of werewolves) that is ghouled or embraced. This one is even more janky, but possible according to one source.....that escapes my memory at the moment, but basically the Big Bad is exactly this PLUS he has Awakend magic via an artifact. It's from 1st edition. Things were pretty wonky back then.

I'm sure someone else mentioned Abominations.

[comicshorse]

2nd. A skinchanger (a kinfolk that murders and creats a coat of the pelts of werewolves) that is ghouled or embraced. This one is even more janky, but possible according to one source.....that escapes my memory at the moment, but basically the Big Bad is exactly this PLUS he has Awakend magic via an artifact. It's from 1st edition. Things were pretty wonky back then.



Samuel Haight the werewolf/mage/5th gen Baali/carrier of the staff of doom (no I'm not making this up, I wish I were)

[hangedman1984]

Samuel Haight the werewolf/mage/5th gen Baali/carrier of the staff of doom (no I'm not making this up, I wish I were)

you forgot ashtray

[Talakeal]

I am pretty sure Ghoul, Kinfolk, Sorcerers, and fae blooded characters all have limited access to their parent races abilities and can be freely combined with eachother or taken by a full supernatural. Also if you have player's guide to the Possessed the various spirit host races can all be applied to any other supernatural and keep their powers except for a few cases like drone changelings.

[Dingle]

as impressive as all these titles are, all they actually do is give you more places to spend XP.

None of the other bases add much to a werewolf, when you consider the drawbacks.
I'd reccommend fomori/drone if anything, but you're still paying for any extra power

I'd say haight is weaker than a straight mage* with the same XP total (probably maxed arete and a few spheres)

*played reasonably intelligently:
never be in the same room as him.
He should be obvious and easy to find after leaving that many breadcrumb trails.
Take advantage of that laundry list of vampire weaknesses that he's managed to obtain. (fire, sunlight, sta doesn't soak agg, no free healing)

[The Glyphstone]

as impressive as all these titles are, all they actually do is give you more places to spend XP.

None of the other bases add much to a werewolf, when you consider the drawbacks.
I'd reccommend fomori/drone if anything, but you're still paying for any extra power

I'd say haight is weaker than a straight mage* with the same XP total (probably maxed arete and a few spheres)

*played reasonably intelligently:
never be in the same room as him.
He should be obvious and easy to find after leaving that many breadcrumb trails.
Take advantage of that laundry list of vampire weaknesses that he's managed to obtain. (fire, sunlight, sta doesn't soak agg, no free healing)

I think he got rid of his weaknesses somehow. Then got turned into an ashtray.

[Dingle]

Well, everything's easy if you can get away with outright cheating.
He's already bent a few rules, but at that point, you might as well have a full set of dice with all 10s.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, everything's easy if you can get away with outright cheating.
He's already bent a few rules, but at that point, you might as well have a full set of dice with all 10s.

I think he did that too. Haight was basically the ultimate poster-child Canon Villain Sue of the OWoD setting.

[Dingle]

Which kind of makes him useless as an argument/example of anything being possible.

[comicshorse]

None of the other bases add much to a werewolf, when you consider the drawbacks.


Hmm I can't help thinking that a Crinos form werewolf with Potence and the ability to pump blood into its stats wouldn't be bad

[Prax4788]

Hmm I can't help thinking that a Crinos form werewolf with Potence and the ability to pump blood into its stats wouldn't be bad

consider horrid from from the bone changing discipline plus 3 to all physical stats

[comicshorse]

consider horrid from from the bone changing discipline plus 3 to all physical stats

Not sure they'd stack as they provide the boost by the same method (increasing muscle mass and body size)

[Prax4788]

Not sure they'd stack as they provide the boost by the same method (increasing muscle mass and body size)

as i understood it one is an alternate form and one is a mod on your existing form

[comicshorse]

Both Crinos form and Viccisssitude 3 involve physically altering the body to bulk it out into a new 'war' form

[Caliphbubba]

Samuel Haight the werewolf/mage/5th gen Baali/carrier of the staff of doom (no I'm not making this up, I wish I were)

ah yep. that's the one I was thinking of. and I admit, it's pretty janky and not really all that useful. But it is cannon. At the very least I think it'd be possible to have a Skinchanger be Ghouled relatively easily.

[Dingle]

Being able to pump blood into your stats sounds good, but remember that you have a maximum of 10 blood points to distribute between that, disciplines, and healing.
Suddenly, you can't just ignore lethal damage.

You become afraid of fire,
can't do anything during the day
burn if someone opens your windows
and you can't soak aggrivated damage anymore (even in crinos) because you're now a vampire. [vampires may not soak aggrivated damage with anything but fortitude]
you now have considerably more ways to frenzy
you even get a clan flaw
and some other vampire owns you

see why some people call vampirism a curse


Potence is an upgrade, but you've become weaker against both lethal and aggrivated damage, so it balances out, and big fights just become shorter and more dependant on initiative.
also, you're either a brujah or nosferatu to get potence in-clan, so have fun frenzying, or being so ugly you can't even go out at night
also, the werewolf will overtake you again in 20-30 xp (when both of you have it) because gifts are cheaper than disciplines.



On horrid form:
1: it's actually level 4, meaning that the abomination has to have 15 xp spare, so, for fairness, we'd have to compare to a werewolf with 15 xp. Gifts are cheap, so our werewolf can have any 5 total new gift ranks (eg. rk4 + rk1 OR rk2 + 3 x rk1)
Gifts are also good: comparable to disciplines of the same level, except without having to buy the lower ones.

2: it costs 2 blood points, which is coming out of your healing, and means you can't do it in one turn, so you don't have it for at least 1/2 the fight, and can't use blood for stats those turns.

So it's not actually much of an upgrade, and you have to take that huge list of weaknesses to even try it, and you've already used your 3 free disciplines on viscissitude.

[comicshorse]

Being able to pump blood into your stats sounds good, but remember that you have a maximum of 10 blood points to distribute between that, disciplines, and healing.
Suddenly, you can't just ignore lethal damage.

You become afraid of fire,
can't do anything during the day
burn if someone opens your windows
and you can't soak aggrivated damage anymore (even in crinos) because you're now a vampire. [vampires may not soak aggrivated damage with anything but fortitude]
you now have considerably more ways to frenzy
you even get a clan flaw
and some other vampire owns you

see why some people call vampirism a curse


Potence is an upgrade, but you've become weaker against both lethal and aggrivated damage, so it balances out, and big fights just become shorter and more dependant on initiative.
also, you're either a brujah or nosferatu to get potence in-clan, so have fun frenzying, or being so ugly you can't even go out at night
also, the werewolf will overtake you again in 20-30 xp (when both of you have it) because gifts are cheaper than disciplines.



On horrid form:
1: it's actually level 4, meaning that the abomination has to have 15 xp spare, so, for fairness, we'd have to compare to a werewolf with 15 xp. Gifts are cheap, so our werewolf can have any 5 total new gift ranks (eg. rk4 + rk1 OR rk2 + 3 x rk1)
Gifts are also good: comparable to disciplines of the same level, except without having to buy the lower ones.

2: it costs 2 blood points, which is coming out of your healing, and means you can't do it in one turn, so you don't have it for at least 1/2 the fight, and can't use blood for stats those turns.

So it's not actually much of an upgrade, and you have to take that huge list of weaknesses to even try it, and you've already used your 3 free disciplines on viscissitude.

I don't totally disagree with you but I'm an argumentative type so:

(1) Why only 10 blood and spending one a round ? The abomination could easily be 9th or 8 th Gen which give more than 10 blood and enable you to spend 2 a round

(2) Pretty sure Werewolf's don't ignore lethal damage. Also Vampires do take half damage from Bashing which I don't think Werewolves do (don't have Werewolf rules to hand)

(3) Why does some Vampire own you. Being embraced is a far way from being owned.

(4) Yes Gifts are cheaper but IMHO weaker than Disciplines. And Abominations can learn new Gifts if they're prepared to talk to Wyrm spirits.

(5) Yes they get a Clan Disadvantage but also get 3 free points of Disciplines and can create Ghouls

I'd agree with everthing else you put though

[Caliphbubba]

I don't totally disagree with you but I'm an argumentative type so:

(1) Why only 10 blood and spending one a round ? The abomination could easily be 9th or 8 th Gen which give more than 10 blood and enable you to spend 2 a round

(2) Pretty sure Werewolf's don't ignore lethal damage. Also Vampires do take half damage from Bashing which I don't think Werewolves do (don't have Werewolf rules to hand)

(3) Why does some Vampire own you. Being embraced is a far way from being owned.

(4) Yes Gifts are cheaper but IMHO weaker than Disciplines. And Abominations can learn new Gifts if they're prepared to talk to Wyrm spirits.

(5) Yes they get a Clan Disadvantage but also get 3 free points of Disciplines and can create Ghouls

I'd agree with everthing else you put though

In addition to what Comicshorse has said, Master of Fire a first rank gift helps with the whole fire thing.

and yeah werewolves don't ignore lethal, they just heal it incredibly fast. one a combat round as long as they make a difficulty 8 stamina+survival roll I believe, and basically for free outside of combat. which really can be surpassed by a low enough generation vampire, at least for a limited amount of time. Say if you're 8th gen you could heal 2 lethal a round and activate Celerity, every round for at least 4 rounds if you're full on blood and be pretty safe.

Or (4) free disciplines if you happen to be embraced by, a, I don't know say a Lasombra for some tasty potence without the Nos/Brujah disadvantages.



There is also always the Unbondable merit, if you go the Ghoul route.
A vitea addicted, Unbondable, Wyrm-Tainted Shadow Lord Ahroun with even just Potence would be Terrifying.

[Dingle]

1: They could be lower generation, which does partially alleviate the problem, but you still need to find all the blood you need.

2: Yeah, it's not ignoring, maybe "forgeting about" might be better; and it only works for small amounts of damage; but the point is that even damage that couldn't possibly kill you will be affecting a vampire all day. (even if they only need to take a break to feed)

and yes, vampires take bashing better than werewolves, which is why I didn't mention it in my list of disadvantages (it's still costly)

3: It's not guaranteed, but why wouldn't the vampire take the chancce to have you blood bonded.
It's only a possibility, but it's a disadvantage if it happens.

4: I'd claim that gifts are the at the same level if you have the regular stats to back them up [eg. stax2 {15xp(rank 5 Get of fenris)} vs soak+5 {60xp(fortitude)}]
wyrm gifts are probably good, but if you're going back to gifts, it doesn't reflect well on the benefits of being a vampire

5: the clan flaw was just another disadvantage to being a vampire.

the free disciplines, and ghouling ability are the only advantages, which have to be compared to all the disadvantages (and the harano).

on balance, I don't think being a vampire is worth it

[comicshorse]

There is also always the Unbondable merit, if you go the Ghoul route.
A vitea addicted, Unbondable, Wyrm-Tainted Shadow Lord Ahroun with even just Potence would be Terrifying.

Cool :smallcool:
Hmmm or even all that but with a Lasombra/Shadow Lord Abomination. Obtenebration just fits with the Shadow Lords so well. Its almost enough to overcome my basic dislike of the idea of Abominations. Maybe just one as a leader of his own cult, a really 'end-of-game' type bad guy. Has possibilities.


the free disciplines, and ghouling ability are the only advantages, which have to be compared to all the disadvantages (and the harano).

And pumping blood into Stats.
The Harano is a hell of a disadvantage mind.
I think its worth it.....just.

[Dingle]

It does seem that whether becomming an abomination is an upgrade or downgrade in power is a matter of personal preference and priorities more than anything else.

Personally, I like to minimise weaknesses on my tanks, and engineer situations to avoid my weaknesses and use my strengths when playing smart guys.

Some people like to take the more optimal (in most systems*) route of having combat charachters maximise damage.



*I can explain my reasoning, but I'm going to sleep now.