Fighter/Paladin

[Katana_Geldar]

I tinked with a rogue at the con, but for my first character for 3.5 I'd like to channel O-Chul with Fighter/Paladin.

Any tips?

[Fable Wright]

Hm... number 1, make sure you play in a low-op party.
Second, what do you actually want your character to do? Spiked Chain Shenanigans? Smiting Everything? Smashing people?

Generic advice: Power attack. Looooots of it. Extra Smiting works wonders. If you're willing to deviate from O-Chul, Domain feats add a lot of power to almost any concept, and, let's face it, you're not really going to be able to turn too much with Paladin turning. Or Divine feats. For more O-Chulian options, Improved Toughness can help with HP at higher levels. Draconic Aura (Vigor) can help keep you and your companions at survivable health levels between fights, which helps if you want to have mini-healbot powers.

[Katana_Geldar]

I'll sword and board, and I do have Power Attack.

[Kuulvheysoon]

If you're playing with Eberron, it opens up a few more options.

Knight Training lets you choose one other base class that you can freely multiclass with Paladin - if you're looking at Sword & Board, dipping Knight 4 might be interesting.

You can also burn an action point to regain usage of certain x/day abilities, including smite evil (Yes, it's an extremely obscure rule. And yes, it IS legal).

[Katana_Geldar]

We're playing Forgotten Realms, and I'm doing 3 levels of fighter before multiclassing.

[RaginChangeling]

I'll sword and board, and I do have Power Attack.

What level are you playing at? Levels 1-5, Sword and board is viable, if weak, but levels 6+ you are much better off two-handing. Shields don't add nearly enough AC to give up the amount of damage you lose by not Two Handing, and if you really want one at a higher level you can enchant one with the Animated property which gives you the benefit of having a shield while leaving both hands free.

Also, what books are open to you? Core only, you probably want to focus more on Paladin levels because you run out of halfway decent feats really quick with Fighter. Have you considered mounted combat at all? Its one schtick that can be done fairly well with only the core mounted feats, and the Paladin special mount is probably the Paladin's most useful feature.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Odd levels of fighter are never a good idea, as they don't really get you anything that another class couldn't. Sword and board is also rather under supported, so you'd be better off just two-handing one weapon to better benefit from power attack.

[Katana_Geldar]

I like sword and board and I am going to stick with it. But I'm starting at Level 1.

For books, I'm sticking to core only for the reason I am rather new at 3.5 and it saves book keeping. Further levels I'll ask the DM if I can take certain feats.

And I am planning on getting mounted combat, just not now.

So I should wait until level 4 then and then multi-class?

[Eldariel]

We're playing Forgotten Realms, and I'm doing 3 levels of fighter before multiclassing.

You definitely want to take 2 or 4 levels of Fighter; the thing is, WoTC designed the class so that you gain nothing on the odd levels. So you should take it to even levels. So if you're going Fighter 3, might as well go all the way to Fighter 4.

What manner of stats are you working with? Paladin has a severe case of multi-attribute dependency. You need Wisdom for spells, Charisma for class features, Strength for hitting things, Constitution for hit points and some Dex for various combat feats and AC and initiative. If your stats are particularly good, you'd actually be best served going straight Paladin right out of the gate; many of the Paladin class features scale with Paladin-level and so you're best off with maximum levels in Paladin. If not...well, y'know, a Holy Crusader's class can really be Fighter or Paladin quite interchangeably (related (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)). I mean, it's all about how your play your character after all. I mean, maybe take few levels of Paladin to get the Paladin-like abilities (Detect Evil, Aura of Good and all that) but then keep going Fighter and get something out of it.


I wonder, what manners of sources might you be working with? You Swordsage'd the response, there.

[Katana_Geldar]

Most of my attributes are 10 or more, with Str at 15. Cha is...7 or 8, I think. :smalleek:

[Eldariel]

Most of my attributes are 10 or more, with Str at 15. Cha is...7 or 8, I think. :smalleek:

I wouldn't think much about Paladin the class then, given its class features basically give you Charisma to a bunch of stuff. If your Charisma is negative, this amounts to practically nothing. Again, mayhap take 1-3 levels for Detect Evil, Aura of Good, Immunity to Disease and all that but beyond that...eeh. It doesn't cost you too much since Core Fighter doesn't gain all that much over the levels but it does postpone the Weapon Focus-chain. It's worth noting that even just 1 level of Paladin gains you the ability to use Wands of Paladin-spells, so you'd gain some divine ability just from that even without the ability to actually cast spells. Notably, you could activate Wand of Cure Light Wounds which is the most efficient way of healing up outside combat.

Good news is that pure straight Fighter (or an almost straight Fighter with a small detour to Paladin) can be just fine as a "Paladin". Mounted combat, in particular, is one of the best ways to build a Fighter anyways. And while you don't have Paladin's mount, you could take Leadership on level 6 and ask for a mount as your Cohort (it's an option). It could even be a magical beast like a Pegasus or a Gryffon.


Can you remember your exact stats for Wisdom, Intelligence and Dexterity? They determine a bit far as what feat paths are open to you, whether Paladin spellcasting is any good for you and all that.

[RaginChangeling]

Most of my attributes are 10 or more, with Str at 15. Cha is...7 or 8, I think. :smalleek:

Then Paladin is going to do basically nothing for you. You're much better off going straight Fighter, though honestly especially with stats like those and sword and board you won't be doing very much in combat.

Your best bet is to take

Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper- Complete Warrior

For the ability to power attack without losing attack bonus (you lose AC instead).

If you can use a lance,

Mounted Combat
Ride By Attack
Spirited Charge

Will also help, though it'll require you to be mounted.

Have you considered taking some levels in Barbarian? And the feat Extra Rage? That would help you hit and damage enemies immensely.

[Katana_Geldar]

Guys, I'm a DM as well as a player. I don't have a favoured class, I try on characters like I try on hats. There's no going back for me for the choice of Fighter/Paladin so don't bother trying to convince me otherwise.

I don't have my stats with me now though. I think Wisdom is 13-14, Con is about the same with Int next best, then Dex, then Cha last.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Guys, I'm a DM as well as a player. I don't have a favoured class, I try on characters like I try on hats. There's no going back for me for the choice of Fighter/Paladin so don't bother trying to convince me otherwise.

I don't have my stats with me now though. I think Wisdom is 13-14, Con is about the same with Int next best, then Dex, then Cha last.

If your Wisdom is okay, you could steal a feat from DRAG306 (correct number?) called Serenity - basically reduces your MAD and makes Lay on hands, smite evil and Divine Grace based off of Wisdom instead of Charisma.

[Katana_Geldar]

Wisdom was third priority after Con, it's decent.

[Eldariel]

Guys, I'm a DM as well as a player. I don't have a favoured class, I try on characters like I try on hats. There's no going back for me for the choice of Fighter/Paladin so don't bother trying to convince me otherwise.

I don't have my stats with me now though. I think Wisdom is 13-14, Con is about the same with Int next best, then Dex, then Cha last.

Well, Fighter/Paladin can be made in so many ways. At what point you multiclass, and which class you pursue. In this case, it would probably make the most sense to pursue Fighter with some levels in Paladin instead of the contrary; no less of a Fighter/Paladin, but you don't suffer of the fact that you don't have the Charisma for Paladin's abilities as much. I mean, a Fighter 3/Paladin -> is just as much of a Fighter/Paladin as a Fighter 3/Paladin 1/Fighter -> (or Fighter X/Paladin X evenly split).

Other option is the mentioned feat "Serenity"; that would allow you to derive your Paladin class features off Wisdom which would solve this whole problem. Only problem is that the feat is from Dragon Magazine. But if you could, that would make Paladin more workable as you actually benefit of the various abilities the class offers you. It's kind of a pity to take a class only to not be able to use its abilities; more or less you'd end up a Fighter without the bonus feats then. That's kind of what happens if you become a Paladin without the Charisma to use the Paladin abilities. Smite Evil, Divine Grace, Turn Undead and Lay on Hands are all Charisma-based; only Paladin spellcasting and Mount are independent of it.

[Katana_Geldar]

I'll talk to the DM, he may be okay with it but I doubt any of us have Dragon magazine actually.

[Kantolin]

Personally?

I'd go the entirely other route, and focus on diplomacy and sense motive. The guy's a fighter who was called to be a Paladin for his god, so talk it up and have a lot of knowledge(religion). I'd take the diplomacy-based feats in the PHB2 (ONe's Wanderer's Diplomacy, I forget the other) and really focus on that. If you're human, you can take able learner so you can keep those skills in class.

Be the honest religious man.

[Katana_Geldar]

I do have the Waterdeep feat Cosmopolitan, does that help?

[RaginChangeling]

I do have the Waterdeep feat Cosmopolitan, does that help?

What skill did you associate it with?

[Katana_Geldar]

Bluff, Sense Motive and...something else Cha based. Don't remember. It may be Diplomacy.

[kts2008]

Have you considered Warblade and/or Crusader? Those might give similar flavor and are more powerful classes. Even dipping could be useful

[Katana_Geldar]

No, it's Paladin. I may try something different later but I want to see how I can go with the alignment restrictions.

[kts2008]

Fair enough. I'd still recommend dipping crusader. Or taking Martial Study/Stance

[Eldariel]

I'll talk to the DM, he may be okay with it but I doubt any of us have Dragon magazine actually.

Well, given the feat is basically "Prerequisite: Divine Grace. Benefit: Use Wis instead of Cha for Smite Evil/Divine Grace/Lay on Hands/Turn Undead." it doesn't really have much one would need the Magazine itself for to read the fineprint or anything. If need be I can confirm that said feat exists; it's actually in Dragon #306. Dug it up real quick. Page 100.

I can of course understand being apprehensive of sources one doesn't own but that's a relatively straight-forward feat and one your character sorely needs. So...yeah, it's at least worth asking. I can even send you scans if that'd help :smallsmile:

[Katana_Geldar]

Thanks! I might not need it fir a while though, when I hit level 4.

[Yora]

To go more into what others said before:

At 1st level, a paladin gains detect evel once per day per level, regardless of his Charisma modifier. Smite Evil isn't very useful to begin with and only has any use if you have really high charisma and a high paladin level.
At 2nd level, both devine grace and lay on hands require a Charisma bonus of at least +1 to have any effect.
At 3rd level, there's aura of courage, which makes you immune to fear and grants a good bonus on saves against fear to nearby allies. That's quite useful. Divine health makes you immune to all disease, which unfortunately almost never shows up in most campaigns.
At 4th level a paladin gains turn undead, which can be used with a negative Charisma modifier, but it will only turn small numbers of weak undead each time, and not very often per day. He also gains 1st level spells, if he has a Wisdom score of at least 12, but 1 spell per day isn't making that much of a difference.
At 5th level is the special mount, which is the one other ability after aura of courage that character might find useful. It's completely independent of Charisma. After 5th level, a paladin doesn't get anything useful. At all. Ever.
If you want to get into combat, fighter is always better after that, and if you want to gain more spells and better turn undead, it's cleric all the way.

So I'd say get that character either 3 or 5 levels of paladin, and put everything else into fighter. It doesn't really matter at which points you switch classes, except that you have to take all paladin levels on consecutive levels. But if you start taking them at 1st, 3rd, or whatever level doesn't really matter much. You can start with fighter, than do the paladin levels, and then continue with fighter later. No problem with that.
Though I would recommend taking 2 or 4 levels of fighter in the beginning, because the bonus feats will make things a lot easier later and grant you some options in combat except standard attack until you reach 6th level (at which point a paladin also gains the option of making a full attack).

[Katana_Geldar]

Thanks, that sounds like a good plan

Here are her stats

Strength 15 (+2)
Dexterity 12 (+1)
Constitution 13 (+1)
Intelligence 13 (+1)
Wisdom 14 (+2)
Charisma 7 (-2)

[Doc Roc]

Thanks, that sounds like a good plan

Here are her stats

Strength 15 (+2)
Dexterity 12 (+1)
Constitution 13 (+1)
Intelligence 13 (+1)
Wisdom 14 (+2)
Charisma 7 (-2)

Gosh, but darn. Those are some rough stats!

[Yora]

PB 27, not that horrible. Just the Cha 7 is really really bad. No chance to switch it with Dexterity?

[Doc Roc]

PB 27, not that horrible. Just the Cha 7 is really really bad. No chance to switch it with Dexterity?

Bad plan, just try to get serenity. I have no idea what you'll do after ~9th level in core.

[Gecks]

For sword and board style, I would recommend using some of your fighter bonus feats to fuel shield spec->shield ward (apply shield bonuse to touch attacks and a variety of situational stuff like bull rushes and grappling), and maybe even agile shield fighter if TWF with a sheild and sword would fit the character concept.

If you are planning to fight on foot a fair amount I might consider trying to fit in improved bash-> shield charge -> shield slam as well, it gives you a good opening move of charging the biggest bad with your shield, and having the chance to both trip and daze them. Make it a smite and you will also be doing decent damage.

I would take a look at Person Man's guide to shields, I find it very helpful when making a shield using character:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630

Of course, if you plan to spend most combat on your special mount, I would probably limit myself to shield ward to maximize the shield's defensive bonus and then focus on the mounted combat line of feats from there.

[Yora]

Bad plan, just try to get serenity. I have no idea what you'll do after ~9th level in core.
Get back to being fighter. But there's a good chance a campaign will never get that far.