Do you agree with this CR?

[Lyndworm]

Do you agree with this CR?
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Elemental Monstrosity

Large Elemental (Air, Cold, Earth, Fire)
Hit Dice: 14d8+98 (161 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +11 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 19
BAB/Grapple: +10/+24
Attack: Gore +18 melee (2d10+15)
Full Attack: Bite +18 melee (2d6+10) and 2 claws +18 melee (2d6+5); or gore +18 melee (2d10+15)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
S. Attacks: Improved grab, toss, trample 2d8+18, +2d6 cold damage, +2d6 fire damage
S. Qualities: Darkvision 60ft, DR 10/magic, immunities, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +10
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 14, Con 25, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +11
Feats: EnduranceB, INA (Gore)B, INA (Slam)B, INA (Stamp)B, Alertness, Improved Bull Rush, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack Power Attack
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 15–20 HD (Lage); 21–28 HD (Huge)
CR: 13



Hardy (Ex):
An elemental monstrosity has a +2 racial bonus on saves against disease.

Improved Grab (Ex):
To use this ability, an elemental monstrosity must hit a Large or smaller foe with a gore attack. If it gets a hold, it tosses its opponent.

Immunities:
An elemental monstrosity is immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and critical hits.

Toss (Ex):
Elemental monstrosities vigorously shake any creature caught in their horns and fling it in a random direction. Resolve the toss as a bull rush maneuver (+14 check modifier), except that there is no attack of opportunity, since the elemental monstrosity has already grabbed its foe when it tries to toss the victim. The elemental monstrosity does not need to move with its foe in order to throw its foe more than 5 feet. If the tossed victim beats the elemental monstrosity’s bull rush check, he remains in his current square with no ill effects and is not grappled any longer. Tossed victims take impact damage on landing as if they had fallen a distance equal to the distance they were tossed.

Trample (Ex):
As a full-round action, an elemental monstrosity can move up to twice its speed and literally run over Medium or smaller creatures. This attack deals 2d8+15 points of damage. Trampled opponents can make attacks of opportunity against the elemental monstrosity at a –4 penalty. If they do not make attacks of opportunity, trampled opponents can attempt DC 27 Reflex saves for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

Scent (Ex):
An elemental monstrosity can detect opponents within 30 feet. The exact location is not revealed unless the creature is within 5 feet.


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This is an actual printed creature with two templates, and some name changes. Do you think 13 is too high? Too low? I'd like to get a second opinion before I subject my players to this beast.

[tyckspoon]

Well.. applying the dear Vorpal Tribble's CR calculator, as reposted in the Let's Read MM2 thread, and re-reposted here (because I have no idea where the original post is any more)
#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.
#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.
#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if its got a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).
#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.
#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.
#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR

161 hp/5.5= 29
22 AC = +2
Special Attacks = +3 (counting +elemental damages as a quality, just for the record; the accounting comes out the same.)
Special Qualities = +6 plus immunities that I'm going to have to work out.. (this is probably overly generous, because for the intended CR darkvision/low light/scent aren't all that relevant and DR/Magic is almost meaningless.)
subcategory: Immunities: +10 from elemental type, +4 for subtypes (unless the templates you used mention otherwise, it should be Immune to Cold and Fire for being both [Cold] and [Fire] subtype.)
Bonus feats: a 14 HD critter should only have 4 feats, there's 7 listed.. so 1 here.

CR is.. 18. Which is clearly wrong, because its basic attack and defense numbers are all out of whack for a CR 18 threat; it'd get absolutely shredded by any decent fighting character. Those elemental immunities and random qualities really overinflate it here; it's being calculated at +3 CR just for being an Elemental. Let's try it without those.. comes out a little over 14. So yeah, 13 is probably about right, especially with the big weaknesses this thing has in its defensive stats; it'll probably shock one or two characters and then get power attacked/crowd-controlled into the dirt.

[Lyndworm]

I've edited the post to show which feats are bonus feats.

Thanks for that. I thought it looked about right at 12-14, but I've never had a real great grasp on appropriate CR.

That calculator looks like it might save me some trouble later on; thanks a lot for including it.

[Jeraa]

After a quick look at the rules for creating monsters in the back of the Pathfinder Bestiary, it says the monster would be about CR 12. Looking at the monster, I would boost that up by 1, so a CR 13.

[Lyndworm]

WotC got this one right then, apparently. It doesn't happen often.

[Another_Poet]

Funny, I was going to say it should be more like a CR 11, maybe 12, with its current AC. I mean sure it will dish out some decent damage but against a 13th level party it will only hit half the time, and its DR is useless. In 2 rounds it will run out of HP.

I'd say CR 11. If you want it to be CR 13, I'd raise the AC to 26 and give it some energy resistances.

[arguskos]

No. I have a level 6 party that could SHRED this thing in about three rounds (and would likely survive the fight, maybe not though, depends on who acts first really). Sure, that's just my party, but this guy has few immunities (though useful ones), not that much HP (seriously, 161 is pretty light), craptacular AC (22? Really?), and can only really deal some fairly light damage. Trample's pretty terrible, after all. The grapple is nice, but not enough. You can find better grapplers at multiple levels lower (the Balhannoth comes to mind).

I'd give this CR 10, if that. For reference, here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10770890&postcount=8) a real CR 12. Now, that thing should be CR 12. It's got better defenses all around the board, has better attacks (properly sized, thank you very much), has relevant special attacks, and useful resistances and defenses. I've even vetted it with some optimization pros, and been told it's about where a creature of that level should be, power-wise. If your conglomeration can't match those numbers (roughly, of course), then it's not in that CR range.

And really, you can run the math yourself. A level 9 party could smoke that critter without much trouble. This is the issue with WotC's CR estimations, they don't take into account player power.

[Lyndworm]

Funny, I was going to say it should be more like a CR 11, maybe 12, with its current AC. I mean sure it will dish out some decent damage but against a 13th level party it will only hit half the time, and its DR is useless. In 2 rounds it will run out of HP.
The more I've been thinking on it, the more I've been leaning towards that train of thought myself.


I'd say CR 11. If you want it to be CR 13, I'd raise the AC to 26 and give it some energy resistances.
Well, as it is, the creature's all RaW. I've done nothing but change some names around, so this thread isn't really about what I could do to raise it up to 13, but more where this board in general thinks it does fall. Also, it's immune to cold and fire damage, and you want me to give it energy resistance. :smallamused:


No. I have a level 6 party that could SHRED this thing in about three rounds (and would likely survive the fight, maybe not though, depends on who acts first really). Sure, that's just my party, but this guy has few immunities (though useful ones), not that much HP (seriously, 161 is pretty light), craptacular AC (22? Really?), and can only really deal some fairly light damage. Trample's pretty terrible, after all. The grapple is nice, but not enough. You can find better grapplers at multiple levels lower (the Balhannoth comes to mind).
I'll fully admit that I'm not very familiar with where creatures fall on the CR scale, even published creatures; that's why I'm here, after all. That being said, however, it seems to me like 6d6+15|+10 is probably a little strong for level 6. That's what throws me, that extra elemental damage. Toss is pretty nice, too.


I'd give this CR 10, if that. For reference, here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10770890&postcount=8) a real CR 12. Now, that thing should be CR 12. It's got better defenses all around the board, has better attacks (properly sized, thank you very much), has relevant special attacks, and useful resistances and defenses. I've even vetted it with some optimization pros, and been told it's about where a creature of that level should be, power-wise. If your conglomeration can't match those numbers (roughly, of course), then it's not in that CR range.
That's certainly a very nice plughomebrew CR 12. It seems about right, too. So you know, the only feat I chose[i] was Improved Multiattack, since it seemed like something the base creature would've taken. All of those INAs are [i]supposed to be there.


And really, you can run the math yourself. A level 9 party could smoke that critter without much trouble. This is the issue with WotC's CR estimations, they don't take into account player power.
Although I posted earlier that I was thinking in the 12-14 range, my gut instinct was 9-10. The 6d6 damage on every hit changed my mind, though. I trust your opinion more than any CR calculator, so it seems that my first instinct was right.

[arguskos]

Well, as it is, the creature's all RaW. I've done nothing but change some names around, so this thread isn't really about what I could do to raise it up to 13, but more where this board in general thinks it does fall. Also, it's immune to cold and fire damage, and you want me to give it energy resistance. :smallamused:
WotC is pretty kkkyeaaaaaaaah sometimes, 'sall I've got to say on that one.


I'll fully admit that I'm not very familiar with where creatures fall on the CR scale, even published creatures; that's why I'm here, after all. That being said, however, it seems to me like 6d6+15|+10 is probably a little strong for level 6. That's what throws me, that extra elemental damage. Toss is pretty nice, too.
Eh, depends on who it attacks in my party actually. The extra dice are nice... until you realize that it isn't dice that kill people, but the modifier. It's not adding that much.


That's certainly a very nice plughomebrew CR 12. It seems about right, too. So you know, the only feat I chose[i] was Improved Multiattack, since it seemed like something the base creature would've taken. All of those INAs are [i]supposed to be there.
True enough. If you fiddled with the feats, it'd be closed, but honestly, I still feel like it'd be in the 9-10 range, at best. Hell, it can't even fly nor does it have a ranged attack! If the party has anyone with a ranged attack worth a damn, they can just fly over it and shoot it to death. :smallsigh:


Although I posted earlier that I was thinking in the 12-14 range, my gut instinct was 9-10. The 6d6 damage on every hit changed my mind, though. I trust your opinion more than any CR calculator, so it seems that my first instinct was right.
6d6 isn't much at level 9, much less level 12. Averages out to 21 damage. That's... eh. With multiple energy types in there, resistances being cheap and common, it just gets worse and worse.

Definitely CR 9. MAAAAAAAAAAYBE CR 10 if your party is a group of light-weights who can't handle a few punches to the face.

[Lyndworm]

WotC is pretty kkkyeaaaaaaaah sometimes, 'sall I've got to say on that one.
...Dr. Rockso?


Eh, depends on who it attacks in my party actually. The extra dice are nice... until you realize that it isn't dice that kill people, but the modifier. It's not adding that much.
I agree, but extra dice certainly help. Average for 6d6 is 21, so a full attack (assuming all attacks at +18 hit) is 98 damage. That strike me as a pretty chunk.


True enough. If you fiddled with the feats, it'd be closed, but honestly, I still feel like it'd be in the 9-10 range, at best. Hell, it can't even fly nor does it have a ranged attack! If the party has anyone with a ranged attack worth a damn, they can just fly over it and shoot it to death. :smallsigh:
You're absolutely right. If we were actually arguing, that would've won. Good thing I'm just curious.


6d6 isn't much at level 9, much less level 12. Averages out to 21 damage. That's... eh. With multiple energy types in there, resistances being cheap and common, it just gets worse and worse.
Again, you're totally right. You've got three different damage sources, so anyone with resistance to cold and fire 10 is basically untouchable.


Definitely CR 9. MAAAAAAAAAAYBE CR 10 if your party is a group of light-weights who can't handle a few punches to the face.
CR 9 it is. Thanks for all of the help, man. It certainly doesn't go unappreciated.

[arguskos]

I agree, but extra dice certainly help. Average for 6d6 is 21, so a full attack (assuming all attacks at +18 hit) is 98 damage. That strike me as a pretty chunk.
Yeah, that's true, but again you're looking at a number of energy types, a big pile of attacks, etc. A level 9 martialist is going to survive and hand it back a similar pile of damage. Oh, and there's more of the level 9's than there are of this thing.


You're absolutely right. If we were actually arguing, that would've won. Good thing I'm just curious.
Yeaaaaah, see, this is why I always give everything some way to handle flight.


Again, you're totally right. You've got three different damage sources, so anyone with resistance to cold and fire 10 is basically untouchable.
Indeed.


CR 9 it is. Thanks for all of the help, man. It certainly doesn't go unappreciated.
Glad to help.