Wilder/Anarchic Initiate errata?

[the_archduke]

Did Anarchic Initiate ever get an errata? A wilder doesn't qualify for it because it doesn't have Knowledge: The Planes as a class skill. How is a wilder supposed to get into this prestige class that was designed for it?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

No, there has been no errata in this regards. However, a Wilder can take the Educated feat to gain Knowledge: The Planes as a class skill to qualify earlier.

[Kuulvheysoon]

CPsi never got an errata - it was "supposed" to be the errata for the XPH.

In all honesty, CPsi is book with a few gems (Ardent, Soulbow, among others), but a lot of garbage and page filling (I mean LOOK at all the mindblade Exotic Shaping feats; that could easily have been collapsed into a single feat).

Is there an unofficial errata out there somewhere, maybe one that removes the unnecessary nerf on astral construct?

[classy one]

Anarchic initiate is extraneous for Wilders. Chaotic surge is the only thing that it really offers and that is at level 1. Contray to popular belief, AI is a PrC for psions, not Wilders. I mean, creating a rift in reality sounds cool and all, but what does it really do for you in combat? I recall it take quite a while to form so you'd need to have your target stand still while it forms..... Rather impartical if you ask me.

As for CPsi as a whole, I like it. I never make a psionic PC without it. As for AC nerf, how many people really were spamming constructs as a strategy? It sounds boring as hell. Also, the whole "one AC at a time" was implied with the PrC constructor (written before XPH), who had a class feature that let you have 2 constructs out at the same time. This implies without that class feature you can't have more than one AC at a time.

[Veyr]

Complete Psionics has a number of horribly-balanced items (Lurk, Divine Mind, most of the feats, nerfs to Astral Construct are all underpowered; at the same time, almost all Psionic abuses require Complete Psionics material), a lot of hideously-nonsensical fluff (the Divine Mind, again, and the Illithid Heritage feats, for starters). It has the Ardent, Soulbow, and Practiced Manifester; those are about the only things worth mentioning.

The Anarchic Initiate is worth mentioning as it fails one of Psionics basic design schemes: it does not lose a manifesting level at 1st. The only other PrC to do that is the Elocator, which loses at 2nd and requires a ton of crappy feats. The Anarchic Initiate does not, and does not lose manifesting at 1st. This is indicative, in my mind, of its overall poor design (which it absolutely is, horribly designed, that is).

As for the Constructor, you are incorrect. The Constructor gains the ability to create multiple Astral Constructs in a single manifestation of the Astral Construct power. This is very different from the feats in Complete Psionics that allowed you to overcome the nerfs that it added. Technically, I'm not sure that the Constructor even works after the nerfs to Astral Construct — I don't have Complete Psionics in front of me to check the exact wording, however.

Also, you probably should not go around posting that the characters enjoyed by others "sound boring".

[classy one]

Complete Psionics has a number of horribly-balanced items (Lurk, Divine Mind, most of the feats, nerfs to Astral Construct are all underpowered; at the same time, almost all Psionic abuses require Complete Psionics material), a lot of hideously-nonsensical fluff (the Divine Mind, again, and the Illithid Heritage feats, for starters). It has the Ardent, Soulbow, and Practiced Manifester; those are about the only things worth mentioning.
I found linked power and synad to be quite good. I use that item that prevents manifesting quite often as. Some powers found in CPsi are stables in OP PCs as well. Right off the top of my head: damp power, anticipatory strike, synchronicity (did appear in RoS as well), inconsistent location, dimensional hop, energy barrage.
I know it's fashionable to say CPsi sucks, but can you really make a psi PC with it? Linked power alone makes it a must for optimizers.

The Anarchic Initiate is worth mentioning as it fails one of Psionics basic design schemes: it does not lose a manifesting level at 1st. The only other PrC to do that is the Elocator, which loses at 2nd and requires a ton of crappy feats. The


As for the Constructor, you are incorrect. The Constructor gains the ability to create multiple Astral Constructs in a single manifestation of the Astral Construct power. This is very different from the feats in Complete Psionics that allowed you to overcome the nerfs that it added. Technically, I'm not sure that the Constructor even works after the nerfs to Astral Construct — I don't have Complete Psionics in front of me to check the exact wording, however.
you maybe right, I don't have the page in front of me so I'll take your word for it. The class feature should provide enough of exception for 2 constructs to exist. The other solution is to take levels in ectopic adept.


Also, you probably should not go around posting that the characters enjoyed by others "sound boring".
I am entitled to my opinions, this thread isn't about astral constructs hence I don't see how saying "spamming ACs is boring" would be poor manners either.

[Kuulvheysoon]

you maybe right, I don't have the page in front of me so I'll take your word for it. The class feature should provide enough of exception for 2 constructs to exist. The other solution is to take levels in ectopic adept.


See, it's your second point there that Veyr's trying to point out: why should you need a newer (arguably worse) PrC to make an older one function as intended?

I mean, looking at CPsi now, it EXPLICITLY states that the only way to have more than a single AC in existence it by having the required levels in the Ectopic Adept PrC.

Besides that, I like the Lurk, even if it is underwhelming (and the save DCs on the Lurk Augments stupidly calculated.). Definitely not enough PP either, considering how often you'll want to be augmenting you Augments. The Tracker ACF from Mind's Eye is admittedly pretty cool, though. Storm Disciple is made of fail, however, while the Ebon Saint is kinda awesome. Spectral savant is awesome in concept, but kinda fails, especially since it directly contradicts itself.

[classy one]

I'm not saying CPsi is perfect but a lot of stuff is quite good. Ardent's means of selecting max power level is probably an editing mistake, and yet it is precisely that feature that maxes it awesome.

Lurk could have been better for sure. I personally go for psychic rogue instead since it has trapfinding, more PP, more skills and skill ranks, better powers. Lurk does have higher level powers and lurk augments though. As a DM I personally merge the two.

More things that I liked about CPsi: Anarchaic Initiate.
It's almost the perfect PrC for any non-wilder. Even for a wilder it is a decent one level dip. In ten levels:
10/10 ML progression
3/4 BAB progression
+2 wild surge
Free empower on surged manifestations

Wild surge is great. Once you played with it once you will never go back to overchannel. A psion with wildsurge is truly a nightmare. At least Wilders are limited by low number of powers (barring any tricks with Psyreform or chiurgery).
Chaotic surge is why Wilders could benefit from this PrC. 50% of the time your power is either empowered or better (without any extra PP cost or expanding focus) 25% of the time it does nothing and 25% it is an antiempower. If a casino had only 25% odds of losing I'd certainly gamble there.

The 10/10 ML means a psion could dip into wilder for wild surge giving him +3 wild surge, which is the highest most Wilders will risk without unconditional power.

3/4 BAB, because psions weren't broken enough.

[Veyr]

I'm not saying CPsi is perfect but a lot of stuff is quite good.
And all I'm saying is that no, there isn't "a lot of stuff" that is quite good. There are two or three things, and the rest of the book is among the worst that WotC ever wrote.

Actually, barring the Sarrukh, the Divine Mind is bad enough that it would make Complete Psionics the worst book ever printed even if the rest of it was pure gold. The Divine Mind should never have happened. A Psionic class that falls? What lunacy is this?



Ardent's means of selecting max power level is probably an editing mistake, and yet it is precisely that feature that maxes it awesome.
I doubt it; it's rather explicit. Anyway, yes, we've covered one good thing in CPsi.


Lurk could have been better for sure. I personally go for psychic rogue instead since it has trapfinding, more PP, more skills and skill ranks, better powers. Lurk does have higher level powers and lurk augments though. As a DM I personally merge the two.
OK, so you admit the Lurk is awful. Any class that needs freebie gestalting is lolbad.


More things that I liked about CPsi: Anarchaic Initiate.
It's almost the perfect PrC for any non-wilder. Even for a wilder it is a decent one level dip. In ten levels:
10/10 ML progression
3/4 BAB progression
+2 wild surge
Free empower on surged manifestations
Yup, which in other words means: horribly designed. It's the only (non-Mind's Eye) Psionic PrC with perfect manifesting progression. It has medium BAB. It has powerful class features. In what way is this not overpowered? And then there's the issue where it's almost impossible to enter and largely useless to the one class it was probably designed for and makes sense to use.


Wild surge is great. Once you played with it once you will never go back to overchannel. A psion with wildsurge is truly a nightmare. At least Wilders are limited by low number of powers (barring any tricks with Psyreform or chiurgery).
Yuuup, that's why Psions shouldn't get Wild Surge.


Chaotic surge is why Wilders could benefit from this PrC. 50% of the time your power is either empowered or better (without any extra PP cost or expanding focus) 25% of the time it does nothing and 25% it is an antiempower. If a casino had only 25% odds of losing I'd certainly gamble there.

The 10/10 ML means a psion could dip into wilder for wild surge giving him +3 wild surge, which is the highest most Wilders will risk without unconditional power.

3/4 BAB, because psions weren't broken enough.
Wait wait wait — are you arguing that broken stuff is a good thing? Well, sorry, IMO, broken crap is the sign of a terribly designed book. And in that area, CPsi falls behind pretty much only the PHB for sheer density of broken stuff.


Actually, yeah, this is starting to make sense. All of the TO Psionic abuses require CPsi. Linked Power, Synchronicity, etc., are pros that you mentioned. Those are bad things and signs that the book is terrible.


The Expanded Psionics Handbook was beautifully balanced (except for the Soulknife), extremely elegant, and quite useful. Complete Psionics trounces all over both the balance and the flavor, adding both hideously overpowered and underpowered options that hadn't existed before and including the Divine Mind, and the only things we can salvage from this wreck are the Ardent, Soulbow (available free online), and Practiced Manifester.

[classy one]

Veyr:
It is difficult to have a debate with you about the merits of CPsi if you continue this rather contradictory line of thinking.

You: it has nothing to offer, a, b, and c all suck.
Me: actually it has quite a bit to offer like x, y, and z.
You: x, y, and z are so good they break the game. It is full great stuff that it's unbalanced.
Me: ???? Didn't you just say everything in it sucked?

I find CPsi to have it's flaws, but when push comes to shove I never optimize a PC without something from that book. If your whole argument is the even the great stuff in the book is so good it's bad then I see little point in discussing this further, let's just stick with talking about anarchic initiate instead.

I personally never thought the class was for Wilders just based on the requirements. Knowledge: the planes and overchannel clearly make this for psions not Wilders. What does wilder really gain from this PrC that it could not from just sticking to wilder? Other than chaotic surge, not much. In fact they lose out on surging euphoria, one wild surge, and two EKs (assuming you used an educated wilder).
On the other hand a psion will lose two bonus feats and gain chaotic surge and wild surge. Two things that cannot be made up for completely with feats. Oh and they improve their BAB by 1/4 as well.
A psion with wild surge is certainly powerful but hardly unbalanced. A wilder with a permanent tattoo of Psyreform (using the tattoo mastery feat found in mind's eye) performs close to that. Wildsurge itself is balanced with enervation. Most people (who dont understand statististics and proability) shun Wilders because it.

[Veyr]

My argument about Complete Psionics was always that it has a host of things that are either underpowered (Astral Construct nerfs, Divine Mind, Lurk), or badly overpowered (Anarchic Initiate, Synchonicity, Linked Power). This is terrible design. The book is terribly designed. It is a bad book. The vast majority options contained therein are not appropriate for their opportunity cost — whether they be too good or too weak.

As for the Anarchic Initiate, the chassis alone is better than any other Psionic PrC or base class in the game. A Psion 10/Anarchic Initiate sans class features 10 is strictly superior to a Psion 20. This is terrible design. Furthermore, the Psion then gets the Wilder's trademark ability, the thing that justifies the Wilder's massively fewer Powers Known and limited Power List — essentially for free. This is terrible design. It then gives additional, powerful class features, still for free. This is terrible design.

CPsi furthermore fails awfully on the fluff. Divine Mind simply should not, could not, and as far as the game world is concerned, does not exist. You cannot lose Psionic prowess by falling. That is impossible. Psionics, by definition, come from within. The Divine Mind either cannot lose its abilities, or it is not Psionic. Complete Psionics pretends that these two mutually exclusive options are true, indicative of yet more terrible design.

And then we have the "Illithid heritage" feats. Did anyone writing this know the first thing about how Illithids reproduce? You cannot be "partially" Illithid or "descended from" an Illithid; that is impossible. And the Illithid's manner of reproduction isn't some squicky obscure sidebar in the Book of Erotic Fantasy that should never have been written, it's a core component of everything that drives the Illithids. This is even more terrible design.

[classy one]

My argument about Complete Psionics was always that it has a host of things that are either underpowered (Astral Construct nerfs, Divine Mind, Lurk), or badly overpowered (Anarchic Initiate, Synchonicity, Linked Power). This is terrible design. The book is terribly designed. It is a bad book. The vast majority options contained therein are not appropriate for their opportunity cost — whether they be too good or too weak.
Okay you don't optimize so I should not impose my values on you. But keep in mind that core already has its load of unbalanced stuff especially for magic users. Unbalance seems to be the norm for casters/manifesters.



As for the Anarchic Initiate, the chassis alone is better than any other Psionic PrC or base class in the game. A Psion 10/Anarchic Initiate sans class features 10 is strictly superior to a Psion 20. This is terrible design. Furthermore, the Psion then gets the Wilder's trademark ability, the thing that justifies the Wilder's massively fewer Powers Known and limited Power List — essentially for free. This is terrible design. It then gives additional, powerful class features, still for free. This is terrible design.
Maybe anarchic initiate is just a good PrC? I mean a soulbow is strictly better than soulknife.... You mentioned XPH being perfectly balanced yet fail to realize it's PrCs had it's share of problems. Metamind's capstone is made to break the game, war mind not advancing ML at all, and let's not forget all the broken things you can do with thrallherd.



CPsi furthermore fails awfully on the fluff. Divine Mind simply should not, could not, and as far as the game world is concerned, does not exist. You cannot lose Psionic prowess by falling. That is impossible. Psionics, by definition, come from within. The Divine Mind either cannot lose its abilities, or it is not Psionic. Complete Psionics pretends that these two mutually exclusive options are true, indicative of yet more terrible design.
Ummm no where does it say divine minds can "fall"...... It does have an alignment requirement but no code of conduct like the paladin. I suppose you could lose your powers if you change alignment but that is hardly the same as a pally's fall from grace.


And then we have the "Illithid heritage" feats. Did anyone writing this know the first thing about how Illithids reproduce? You cannot be "partially" Illithid or "descended from" an Illithid; that is impossible. And the Illithid's manner of reproduction isn't some squicky obscure sidebar in the Book of Erotic Fantasy that should never have been written, it's a core component of everything that drives the Illithids. This is even more terrible design.
Yeah this was a good example of the authors not talking to eachother. Still I kind of like the mechanics behind the feats.

[sreservoir]

I find CPsi to have it's flaws, but when push comes to shove I never optimize a PC without something from that book.

is this not a problem in and of itself?

[sreservoir]

I find CPsi to have it's flaws, but when push comes to shove I never optimize a PC without something from that book.

is this not a problem in and of itself?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Okay you don't optimize so I should not impose my values on you. But keep in mind that core already has its load of unbalanced stuff especially for magic users. Unbalance seems to be the norm for casters/manifesters.

Maybe anarchic initiate is just a good PrC? I mean a soulbow is strictly better than soulknife.... You mentioned XPH being perfectly balanced yet fail to realize it's PrCs had it's share of problems. Metamind's capstone is made to break the game, war mind not advancing ML at all, and let's not forget all the broken things you can do with thrallherd.

Ummm no where does it say divine minds can "fall"...... It does have an alignment requirement but no code of conduct like the paladin. I suppose you could lose your powers if you change alignment but that is hardly the same as a pally's fall from grace.

Yeah this was a good example of the authors not talking to each other. Still I kind of like the mechanics behind the feats.

Veyr's actually a good optimizer. The thing that he's saying is that for "normal" gameplay (assuming let's say... mid optimization) CPsi is a horrendously balanced book. They stuff is either terrible or nearly stupidly good to the point where you'd always take it.

Anarchic Initiate is a good PrC to the point where's there's virtually no reason NOT to take it. Prestige classes are supposed to be an alternate path - giving up certain abilities/not advancing them in exchange for different abilities. Anarchic Initiate is at the point where it gets what a psion20 gets AND MORE.

Soulbow was something that WotC did RIGHT - they tried to salvage the complete mess that they made of the soulknife. Personally, my last Soulknife build that was hilariously fun (in a low-optimization campaign) was a soulknife X/illumine soul 2/soulbow X. It was more effective than a normal soulknife, to the point where it could actually contribute in a meaningful way.

And Metamind is balanced by the fact that it slows manifesting progress a ridiculous amount. It's a 5/10 PrC.

Veyr's (and mine, actually) problem with the Divine Mind is exactly that - if psionic power comes from within, why would you lose it if you changed your views on religion?. That's exactly like saying a fighter loses access to his feats if he becomes a pacifist. It. Makes. No. SENSE.

[Veyr]

Okay you don't optimize
Wrong. Doesn't mean that overpowered options are a good thing.


But keep in mind that core already has its load of unbalanced stuff especially for magic users. Unbalance seems to be the norm for casters
Correct, this is not a good thing.


/manifesters.
For the most part, before Complete Psionics? No, it wasn't. Psion was a comfortable Tier 2; Psychic Warrior was a solid Tier 3. That's pretty darn tight balancing, barring the Soulknife. CPsi ruined that.


Maybe anarchic initiate is just a good PrC?
It is strictly superior to the entry class, or any other PrC option for that class. That is the very definition of overpowered. The large number of spellcasting PrCs with the same problem is not a defense.


I mean a soulbow is strictly better than soulknife.... You mentioned XPH being perfectly balanced yet fail to realize it's PrCs had it's share of problems. Metamind's capstone is made to break the game, war mind not advancing ML at all, and let's not forget all the broken things you can do with thrallherd.
Metamind is actually underpowered; you can do more without it than you can with it. But it's close.

Thrallherd is no more broken, really, than Leadership. I agree that it is horribly broken, though, and comparing it to Leadership is no different from you comparing Anarchic Initiate to spellcasting PrCs, so I'd concede that point.


Ummm no where does it say divine minds can "fall"...... It does have an alignment requirement but no code of conduct like the paladin. I suppose you could lose your powers if you change alignment but that is hardly the same as a pally's fall from grace.
It really, really is. Less strict but you can still lose your class features, including manifesting, which is utterly nonsensical.


Yeah this was a good example of the authors not talking to eachother. Still I kind of like the mechanics behind the feats.
The feats cost more than they give, IMO, but that's besides the point — they are still terrible design.

Let's look at this:

Things in XPH that are imbalanced:
Soulknife
Thrallherd
Pyrokinetic — you didn't mention it, but it's a pretty underpowered PrC

Things in CPsi that are worth including in a game in unmodified form:
Ardent
Soulbow
Practiced Manifester
Would you look at that? The lists are the same length. XPH has as many problems (3) as CPsi has good features (3).

[cfalcon]

I generally concur with Veyr on this. The Complete Psionic, as written, is not very balanced. Generally things are too good, or not good enough.

I had pretty much skipped the Illithid thing and had never thought critically about it, actually, but I just wanted to say: really good point. That makes no damned sense.

[Draz74]

Linked Power is a component of some broken combos, but outside of such combos, it's also a beautiful, well-balanced feat that makes a number of otherwise-clunky psionic gish builds viable. I'd call it a "plus" for the game, on the whole.

Nerfs to Energy Missile and Energy Stun are annoying, but probably good for game balance.

There are a number of niche utility powers in the book that are a lot of fun, such as Urban Strider.

The Mend Wounds power is weaker than the Heal spell, but still worth using for in-combat healing (unlike most sources of healing in the entire 3.5e system). I like that psionics gets some resources to make them better healers in this book. The excellent Egoist ACF that gives them access to the Life Mantle is from Mind's Eye, not CPsi, but it's based on CPsi material (the Mantle itself), so that's another plus.

I'm no expert in CPsi, but there's four more worthwhile things from it, just off the top of my head. :smalltongue:

And I never quite understood the vitriol towards the Divine Mind's ability to "fall." Psionics come from within, yes, but why should that mean they aren't based on your religious convictions, moral philosophy, or inner peace between you and your own actions? The book's fluff might not portray it that way, grated, but bad fluff is ubiquitous. Personally I'm more offended by the DMind's non-good BAB progression (or general underpoweredness) than by its falling rules.

[Veyr]

And I never quite understood the vitriol towards the Divine Mind's ability to "fall." Psionics come from within, yes, but why should that mean they aren't based on your religious convictions, moral philosophy, or inner peace between you and your own actions?
You might have something if the Divine Mind fell if he "stopped believing in anything" or something. But he loses his class features as a Cleric would — by changing alignment too far from his deity's. Why the hell wouldn't his conviction work just as strongly for his new god? Presumably he feels pretty damn strongly about it, if he's ditching the old god he used to champion.

[classy one]

I think my definition of optimizing might be different from yours Veyr. IMO the very point of optimizing is to unbalance the class. Wilders will work to get more powers (via Psyreform), psions will get wild surge via AI PrC, rogues get more damage via craven, clerics become BSF via DMM persist. The list goes on and on. Balance and optimization just don't even belong in the same sentence.

The game is not balanced. To complain about in one supplemental book is a bit out of proportion given the scope.

Psionic players always complain about not having as much cool options as their arcane and divine counterparts but when you get them you complain it is "too good"? Did it ever occur to you that your Hatedom is causing you lose objectivity?

There are a lot wrong with CPsi, Divine mind and illithid heritage beng key aming them, but it also offered a lot of decent/great stuff as well. If you let the bad stuff gloss over the good then you are needlessly crippling your PC.

[Veyr]

No, I am saying that a book that allows Char Op shenanigans in large quantities is not well designed.

From a player's perspective, it might be cool to have all these Optimized shenanigans — I've had a fair bit of fun playing with the broken toys — but from a game designer's perspective it is terrible.

I don't know a lot about game design. I haven't done a lot of homebrew. But I do know that overpowering or underpowering players are things a game designer should be trying to avoid.

And the authors of Complete Psionics failed in that, horribly.