Smite Evil Damage

[Luzahn]

Hello. I was recently looking at Paladin information, and noticed that Smite Evil seemed pretty weak for its limited uses per day. Am I correct in understanding that it only deals one damage per Paladin level, and, if so, am curious as to how people treat it in their campaigns.

[RaginChangeling]

I usually make it per encounter instead of per day. The Paladin is pretty weak all around though to be honest, I usually encourage people to make a Crusader, Cleric, Favored Soul, or Incarnate if they want to play a Holy Warrior.

[Talya]

There's a tactical feat that does some nice things with smite evil+power attack. Then take extra smiting...real advantage of smite evil is the bonus to hit. Those are free power attack points...

[KillianHawkeye]

Don't forget that that damage is in addition to the damage your attack normally does!

[Luzahn]

I suppose. It still feels rather underwhelming, though. Ah well.

And sadly, for Rp reasons I'm playing a Dwarven Paladin. Very weak Cha modifier.

[Person_Man]

Smite Evil is indeed quite weak on it's own. If you want the fixed version, go read the Pathfinder Paladin - it's much better. Also, here's the Smite Optimization thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10289492) if you're interested.

Here are the more important take aways:

In general, you shouldn't make Smite the center of your build. You should have other stuff to do, and put a few resources into Smite to make it useful.

Smite damage can be multiplied, and by mid levels it's generally easy to do so for a low investment. By itself it's generally class level damage. With one spell and a lance it's class level *3. With one magic item and one feat, it's class level *5. If you invest heavily in it, you can get it up to class level *10ish or more. In particular, take a look at the Manyfang Dagger from Serpent Kingdoms. Deals quadruple damage on each hit, or quintuple on a critical hit. Bonus dice of damage (like Sneak Attack) are never multiplied, and Power Attack can’t be applied to light weapons. But it works very well with Smite (and Craven, and for Evil Incarnates).

From a metagame perspective, it's often better to have a rarely used "per-day" effect instead of an often used continuous effect. If you have optimized Power Attack and you use it every round, your DM will often (and sometimes unconsciously) adjust the difficulty of every upwards to compensate. (Smart players understand this as the key to Batman caster builds - focus on low key spells most of the time, and whip out Polymorph or some other game winner only when you really need it).

If you can't play the Pathfinder Paladin, the Cleric and Binder have fairly strong Smite abilities if you know where to look.

The Ordained Champion can burn Turn Undead to gain a Smite attempt. The bonus to hit is equal to your Cha bonus, and the bonus to damage is equal to your total effective turning or rebuking level. This Smite is not limited by alignment or race. So if you can't use the Pathfinder Paladin, this is by far your most efficient and effective source of Smite. The class also progresses turn/rebuke undead AND any domain related abilities (a rarity), and in general it's a strong Cleric PrC all around. The only caveat is that it only provides 3/5 caster progression. Complete Champion pg 90.

From Smite to Song feat adds Perform to your class list, and allows you to burn Smite Evil attempts to Inspire Courage. While this may seem like a very minor thing, Inspire Courage can be ridiculously optimized with Dragonfire Inspiration and Words of Creation. And even if you only spend a modest amount on a few Inspire boosting magic items and/or spells, having a +4ish bonus to-hit for your entire party when needed is a fairly good deal. Champions of Valor pg 29.

Initiate of Bahamut feat allows a Cleric to Smite Evil once per day, and your Cleric levels stack with levels of other classes for determining damage. If you're a Dragonborn, you can Smite Evil twice per day. And you add a few mediocre spells to your Cleric spell list. Since several prestige classes offer Smite progression and divine spell progression, this allows you to play a Tier 1 build focused on Smite. Dragon Magic pg. 20.

[Diarmuid]

It's probably mentioned in the thread PM linked, but the Charging Smite ACF from PHB2 is also a great option. Give up your mount (probably an easy choice for a Dwarf) and now when you charge your Smite does 3*Pal lvl and the attempt isnt wasted if you miss. Not really relevant for your char, but with the +Cha to hit and then the +2 from charging, you're just begging for a big ol' PA.

[Luzahn]

Cool info. Thanks! I'll probably stick with that charging smite for now. Dwarves don't really seem the type to have a warhorse, anyway.

[Person_Man]

Cool info. Thanks! I'll probably stick with that charging smite for now. Dwarves don't really seem the type to have a warhorse, anyway.

I understand your decision. But I am not personally a big of a fan of the Charging Smite alternate class feature. A Special Mount is the Paladin's strongest class feature. It increases their movement, gives enemies another target, adds attacks, can be augmented with Share Spells, and can be something cool like a dragon, sand worm, griffin, or whatever if you invest in Leadership or a PrC that improves it, which in turn adds additional special abilities like flight, burrowing, breath weapons, etc. A Small race (like a Strongheart Halfling) can ride a Medium mount anywhere that humans or dwarves can go. And even a Large mount doesn't have that many issues, because Squeezing penalties aren't that big of a deal and can be negated by a feat or two (Tunnel Fighter and Tunnel Rider IIRC). And it's quite easy to multiply your Smite (and Power Attack) damage a wide variety of ways, which are listed out in the thread I posted.

But YMMV, of course.

[Ravens_cry]

I second Person_Man on Pathfinder Paladin actually being awesome.

[Luzahn]

Hm. Well, regarding a potential mount, then, anyone know something that fits a Dwarf thematically?

[RaginChangeling]

Hm. Well, regarding a potential mount, then, anyone know something that fits a Dwarf thematically?

Dire Badger, Ashworm, Bulette, Warhorse, Dire Bat and Giant Eagle could al fit depending on which variety of Dwarf you are drawing thematic inspiration from.

[Optimator]

Yeah, that's why I use Seerow and OW4's Rebalanced Paladin (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528002/The_Rebalanced_Paladin!_%28Thread_2%29?post_id=331 902034#331902034).

[Luzahn]

Thinking of hailing from a mountaintop cavern, similar to Thorin Oakenshield's city in the Hobbit. Or some sort of snowhold. Either way, Gryphon would be nice, if flying mounts are allowed by the mount rules. Does any rule prevent usage of a flying creature for a mount?

[FMArthur]

What about giving up the Special Mount for Charging Smite, then buying a horse or taking Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)?

[Mystify]

Be careful with the mount. It very easily turns into a blob of jello at later levels, and if it drops its gone for a month. I had a mounted combat based paladin/cavalier with a Pegasus mount. It was awesome, until something took more than 2 attacks at the pegasus in the same round. mounted combat can easily block the first blow, but even with a large portion of my wealth invested in its protection, the pegasus can't stand up to punishment.

The real factor in how worthwhile smite is depends on how much evil is in the campaign. I ran an anti-demon campaign once, and a fist of raziel built for smiting(and not extremely well) was very awesome.

[Person_Man]

What about giving up the Special Mount for Charging Smite, then buying a horse or taking Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)?

If he's sold on Charging Smite that would be a good idea. But keep in mind that Wild Cohort doesn't scale as well as a Special Mount, you can't Share Spells with it, and it doesn't let you qualify for Paladin-ish Prestige Classes.

Anywho, as for Special Mount suggestions I suggest you look at the DMG. Under Leadership there's a list of different options specifically for a Paladin's Mount. I'm rather fond of dragons.

If you want to build your whole class around your mount, take a look at the Ashworm Dragoon from Sandstorm, Aglarondan Griffin Rider from Unappoachable East, and Knight of the Iron Glacier Frostburn.

[Bayonet Priest]

I like charging smite personally, while the special mount is a powerful class feature, it is not always appropriate for the campaign. In cases like dungeon crawling where maneuvering on a horse would be difficult, I think its better to just get a massive boost to your smite evil. (Pathfinder Paladin's smite is rather more awesome but I'm assuming you can't play that class)

So as others have said, Smite Evil looks weak but gets much better as you multiply it, Charging Smite just makes that easier to do. The one time I ran a campaign with a paladin, the only time he used charging smite he got a crit, on a x3 weapon at that. 120-125 or so damage later and the Mohrg was toast.

It was awesome, I told the players that the Mohrg was consumed by a column of light so bright that their character's shadows were burnt into the walls behind them.

[Luzahn]

Yeah, my DM is unfamiliar with Pathfinder, and is rather resistant to using unofficial things.