High-CHA Sorc Gish... In over my head! Help!

[Lonely Tylenol]

For TL;DR types, I put the explanation in the spoiler.

The TL;DR version is:

My girlfriend wanted to play a magic-user, so we helped her make a Sorceress; now she's changed her mind, and wants to play a sword-slinging magic-user hybrid. I'm trying to map out a decent progression for her to take without changing her existing stats, which include awesome CHA, but terrible STR.

Okay, so a couple days ago I cried out for help tweaking my own character's build... And I got it. Now I'm going to get real greedy and beg ask for help with another.

I've been trying to get my girlfriend really involved with D&D for awhile. She's HUGE on fantasy, loves to write, loves to use her imagination, etc., so I figured it would be great for her. We got her going on a character; she wanted to be a magic-user that excelled at manipulation (such as through enchantments and illusions), so we rolled her a Sorceress. She got killer stat rolls, and through the DM's 3-point house rule (whereby, upon rolling a character, you can drop 3 points from any attribute and re-allocate them to anything else) she wound up with a 22 CHA when she started at level 4.

Unfortunately, we missed the mark, because she's frustrated by the fact that her character just isn't that versatile, and between the other party members advising her not to do things (like fighting in melee.... At all, which is commonsense all things considered, but isn't what she had in mind), her just being too shy to use that imagination of hers or do much talking in-character (which is a shame, because she has a +18 to Bluff and a +14 to Diplomacy at level 4, making her the best social character in the party), she's mostly just spent that absurdly high CHA on Lesser Orb spam, and has gotten really discouraged by the whole thing.

I asked her what she really wanted to do with her character, and she said that she wanted to be a character that mixed elegant swordplay with arcane magics--something like the Bladesinger, only she doesn't know what a Bladesinger is.

I'm trying to get her character working in that direction without sacrificing too much (though it looks like 9th-level spells are right out), and since my DM frowns on rebuilding (he does allow commonsense changes, however; for instance, I was allowed to change my level 1 feats, which were Spell Penetration and Magical Aptitude, into Iron Will and Skill Focus (Spellcraft) once I had enough experience to know that spell resistance is nonexistant at lower levels and Use Magical Device is something Wizards do intuitively, thus not ever needing it as a skill), I'm going to have to work with what I've got, which are a sod-off CHA stat (22) and a squishy STR stat (10) which are befitting of the Sorceress we had originally rolled for her.

I've done some research and come up with this progression:

SiNafay Quaveyn, Chaotic Good Half-Drow Sorceress (treated as Half-Elf with some Drow qualities)
Sorcerer 4/Fighter 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8
STR 10/DEX 16/CON 14/INT 14/WIS 14/CHA 22

Feat progression:
Level 1: Nymph's Kiss
Level 3: Veil of Shadows (hoping the DM will allow me to change this to Combat Casting)
Level 5: Weapon Finesse (Fighter bonus feat)
Level 6: Fey Soul (if DM allows it, which he probably won't because it's third party and stupid broken; if not, Improved Toughness)
Level 6: Combat Expertise (Fighter bonus feat)
Level 9: Arcane Strike
Level 12: Improved Feint
Level 13: Combat Panache (Eldritch Knight bonus feat)
Level 15: Intimidating Strike
Level 18: Avenging Strike (but will move up the list if outsiders become something we fight often)

But have been looking at some other feats (such as Battle Casting, Dirty Fighting, Eyes in the Back of your Head and Lunging Strike) as possibilities.

Looking for the following items:
Slippers of Battledancing (PHB II)
Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon Compendium; this might also not be allowed)
Any sword with Spell Storing, preferably a rapier or short sword
A mithral shirt for armor (if at all)

Spells of note:
Shield and Mage Armor (if I can get the DM to house rule it as Abjuration)
Combust (for spell storing)
Invisbility
Mirror Image/Greater Mirror Image
Whirling Blade
Thunder Lance
Brilliant Blade
Sonic Weapon?
?????

But there are so many things that I don't know about making a gish that I'm kinda floundering about here. Power Attack is out since she has the STR of a commoner, and Paladin 2 (for CHA to all saves) is currently out because she's not Lawful and has no reason to change, but if it's so good that it's worth giving up two feats to get, I can try to convince my DM to make it so; I just probably won't succeed. I have no idea if a dip into Crusader or Warblade is worth it for the maneuvers, or for that matter if Jade Phoenix Monk is a suitable replacement for Eldritch Knight. Aside from the three items listed, I don't have the foggiest idea what to look for (a +CHA item to give a bonus with Whirling Blade and equipment modifiers, or +DEX for AC/to-hit without them), and while I have some idea of how spells interact with different things (being a Wizard and all), I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert here.

We both leveled up last session, so she needs to gain her level by Friday.

Can somebody help me out?

[pinballchico]

I'm not too familiar with it...but look around and I'm sure you'll find posts about the Sorcadin...(sorcerer/Monk/Paladin) from what I've seen its the gold standard of a Charisma based Gish.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm not too familiar with it...but look around and I'm sure you'll find posts about the Sorcadin...(sorcerer/Monk/Paladin) from what I've seen its the gold standard of a Charisma based Gish.

Looks like a really solid build...

What should I look forward to if I don't have access to Paladin due to alignment restrictions or lack of a plausible in-game reason for her to become a paladin *now*? (My concern isn't really that Paladin isn't good, but instead that Paladin might not be possible.)

Having Sacred Exorcist means the possibility of 9th level Arcane spells, but if I go that route, what should I get rid of to make up for the fact that there are three fewer feats? (I'm thinking Intimidating Strike and Combat Panache, since Intimidate never becomes a class skill, and no clue on the third.)

[AdalKar]

For the problem with the lawful side of the Paladinclass, how about Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures) levels instead?

And that got nothing really to do with the build in question, but maybe a look at the Charisma Spoiler of the X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread by Person Man could help get her more power :smallsmile:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well, when your GF get to cast 4th level spells there is thunder lancer, which uses CL for BAB (not sure if it grants actual iterative attacks) and Casting stat modifier for attack bonus.

Also the Sorcadin doesn't involve monk, it is Paladin (of freedom) 2/Sorc 4/SpellSword 1/Abujrant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

[OverdrivePrime]

This is almost the exact same problem I'm having putting a character together for one of my friends. She plays a lot of Neverwinter Nights and from that has gotten the idea that an arcane trickster *should* be awesome. But every time she has me or her husband try to build one, the results are underwhelming. She doesn't really want to skulk around and snipe in a tabletop game where her friends are describing fun face-smashing melee actions or awesome field-control spells. I've slowly realized wants to be a face-smasher that can use magic to screw with people and play rude tricks on them.

Soooo... not to be the stereotypical "omfgwtfbbq; ToB is t3h roxorz!" guy, but seriously, in almost every case where someone isn't having enough fun with melee but doesn't want to be 300 pounds of steroids frothing-at-the-mouth übercharger, I can turn to the Tome of Battle and find something that satisfies. Warblade is probably what your girlfriend wants, and is definitely what my friend is getting.

Try for something like 4 levels of sorcerer, one level of warblade, 2 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage, 5 levels of Abjurant champion, and then the other 8 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage. If you can get your DM to re-fluff and use the Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw disciplines for Jade Phoenix Mage (maybe call it Emerald Jungle Queen or something, you should have a something that is fun to play at every level, decently powerful without being ridiculous, and has plenty of options to keep boredom from setting in.

[only1doug]

Initial Thoughts based on the stats:

Avoid fighter, consider other options:

Swashbuckler: weapon finesse free at L1, 3 levels will grant Int to damage, not great but not terrible.

Duskblade: gives more spells while granting the BAB and proficiencies needed (combat casting feat free at L1) (a dip will give lots of cantrips and a couple of L1 spells)

[spoiler] I'd probably pick one or the other but Duskblade 1 / swashbuckler 1 will give you more than fighter 2, you get two free feats (fixed but they are ones that you want anyway: combat casting & Weapon Finesse), some extra spells including a lot of cantrips.
[spoiler]


Spells:

Luminous Armour: an exalted Conjouration armour spell, has a sacrifice of str damage when it expires (so some method of healing temporary str damage is recommended even if the characters attacks become independent of str)

Greater mighty Wallop: a blunt weapon counts as a number of size categories larger.

Heart of Earth/Air/Fire/Water: Long duration buffs that can be ended for a temporary bonus(freedom of movement, stoneskin etc), any 2 combined grants lesser fortification all 4 together grant greater fortification.




I Hope this helps a bit.

[balistafreak]

I'm not sure what level you are now. This is the most important piece of info, because optimization is heavily dependent on exactly how many levels we have to work with.

You can make a 20 level build, sure, but if a build doesn't have all its pieces it's generally going to be hilariously underwhelming.

If you don't have very many levels to work with (<6), I'm not sure how to make a CHA focused gish at all. :smallannoyed:

If you have a lot of levels (8+) a more "traditional" build with most of its levels in caster levels, like what you have, is great.

I will, however, throw in a vote for Jade Phoenix Mage. The Phoenix flavor/fluff/background is a bit odd, but even scrapping ALL the class features and just looking at the maneuver/spellcasting progressions, you've got it made, and it's a blast to play.

I actually think your biggest problem here obstructing the gish-plan is that STR 10. Without even more burned resources (on Swordsage levels and the Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade feat line) you can't hope to be good in melee with a STR that weak. It's a common trap for newer players to try DEX based melee - without the aforementioned support or some other heavy optimization, you'll flail and fail every single time.

[Lonely Tylenol]

For the problem with the lawful side of the Paladinclass, how about Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures) levels instead?

And that got nothing really to do with the build in question, but maybe a look at the Charisma Spoiler of the X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread by Person Man could help get her more power :smallsmile:

Right, Paladin of Freedom. Keeps CG and gets Bluff. Double awesome.

I saw the Charisma spoiler, which is where I got the magic items and the Thunder Lance spell (Whirling Blade was something of a given), but the PrCs offered seem kind of out there.


Well, when your GF get to cast 4th level spells there is thunder lancer, which uses CL for BAB (not sure if it grants actual iterative attacks) and Casting stat modifier for attack bonus.

Also the Sorcadin doesn't involve monk, it is Paladin (of freedom) 2/Sorc 4/SpellSword 1/Abujrant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

I had never heard of Thunderlance using the caster level for base attack bonus, but I know it will use CHA for attack and damage rolls.


This is almost the exact same problem I'm having putting a character together for one of my friends. She plays a lot of Neverwinter Nights and from that has gotten the idea that an arcane trickster *should* be awesome. But every time she has me or her husband try to build one, the results are underwhelming. She doesn't really want to skulk around and snipe in a tabletop game where her friends are describing fun face-smashing melee actions or awesome field-control spells. I've slowly realized wants to be a face-smasher that can use magic to screw with people and play rude tricks on them.

Soooo... not to be the stereotypical "omfgwtfbbq; ToB is t3h roxorz!" guy, but seriously, in almost every case where someone isn't having enough fun with melee but doesn't want to be 300 pounds of steroids frothing-at-the-mouth übercharger, I can turn to the Tome of Battle and find something that satisfies. Warblade is probably what your girlfriend wants, and is definitely what my friend is getting.

Try for something like 4 levels of sorcerer, one level of warblade, 2 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage, 5 levels of Abjurant champion, and then the other 8 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage. If you can get your DM to re-fluff and use the Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw disciplines for Jade Phoenix Mage (maybe call it Emerald Jungle Queen or something, you should have a something that is fun to play at every level, decently powerful without being ridiculous, and has plenty of options to keep boredom from setting in.

Considering Warblade/Jade Phoenix Mage, but the only problem I have with them is they seem to be more reliant on physical stats than mental (and I'm dealing with pretty mediocre physical stats for a martial class).

It's still on the table, but I'm not sure quite yet.


Initial Thoughts based on the stats:

Avoid fighter, consider other options:

Swashbuckler: weapon finesse free at L1, 3 levels will grant Int to damage, not great but not terrible.

Duskblade: gives more spells while granting the BAB and proficiencies needed (combat casting feat free at L1) (a dip will give lots of cantrips and a couple of L1 spells)

I'd probably pick one or the other but Duskblade 1 / swashbuckler 1 will give you more than fighter 2, you get two free feats (fixed but they are ones that you want anyway: combat casting & Weapon Finesse), some extra spells including a lot of cantrips.


Actually, that does help--I'm not at all familiar with Swashbuckler. Duskblade doesn't give Combat Casting until level 2 though.

That doesn't mean that Swash 2 or Dusk 2 wouldn't give me both feats, though, even if I am still using the level 6 feat.

Right now, though, the +6 to all saves that Paladin 2 gives me is looking the most tempting.


Spells:

Luminous Armour: an exalted Conjouration armour spell, has a sacrifice of str damage when it expires (so some method of healing temporary str damage is recommended even if the characters attacks become independent of str)

Greater mighty Wallop: a blunt weapon counts as a number of size categories larger.

Heart of Earth/Air/Fire/Water: Long duration buffs that can be ended for a temporary bonus(freedom of movement, stoneskin etc), any 2 combined grants lesser fortification all 4 together grant greater fortification.




I Hope this helps a bit.

Was looking at luminous armor for its combination with Abjurant Champion (as it is actually an Abjuration spell, not Conjuration, like its Mage Armor counterparts). Not sure if the DM will try to kill me with the Book of Exalted Deeds if I use it while circumventing the STR penalty with special abilities, but if not I'll try it. The STR damage is seedy though, but I guess it just means she can take a hit much, much better than she can dish it out up until, say, level 9.

Greater Mighty Wallop won't help her character much directly, since most of her abilities pertain more to slashing, but I suppose it's good to at least have the option there (and what's stopping her from using a mace as well as a sword?).

I need to get myself a copy of Complete Mage... I'm pretty much the only person in my group that doesn't have it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm not sure what level you are now. This is the most important piece of info, because optimization is heavily dependent on exactly how many levels we have to work with.

Sorry! I thought I mentioned that we were level 4, and had just leveled into 5 last session. Level 5 has yet to be assigned, so for all intents and purposes, you have 16 levels to work with. I just prefer to build a "level map" so that I know what to expect for subsequent levels.


You can make a 20 level build, sure, but if a build doesn't have all its pieces it's generally going to be hilariously underwhelming.

If you don't have very many levels to work with (<6), I'm not sure how to make a CHA focused gish at all. :smallannoyed:

If you have a lot of levels (8+) a more "traditional" build with most of its levels in caster levels, like what you have, is great.

I'm not expecting instant results--we have to level our characters through, after all--but I'm hoping for something that she can level into and make useful in the long run.


I will, however, throw in a vote for Jade Phoenix Mage. The Phoenix flavor/fluff/background is a bit odd, but even scrapping ALL the class features and just looking at the maneuver/spellcasting progressions, you've got it made, and it's a blast to play.

The maneuvers are tempting, and the 4/5 caster progression is... Well, better than most. The maneuvers are what are really tempting, because it allows for more than one attack to be made.


I actually think your biggest problem here obstructing the gish-plan is that STR 10. Without even more burned resources (on Swordsage levels and the Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade feat line) you can't hope to be good in melee with a STR that weak. It's a common trap for newer players to try DEX based melee - without the aforementioned support or some other heavy optimization, you'll flail and fail every single time.

Yeah, I can see how this can be problematic, but when we rolled her stats, it was for a Sorceress; otherwise, WIS would have been a more suitable dump stat, so that at least the Power Attack tree could be accessed. Unfortunately, I don't think I have a choice in this matter--unless, of course, I convince her that fighting on the front line is for squares, but that kinda defeats the point of all this.

I can see a number of ways that a high CHA can be workable, but they mostly involve item options (Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, Slippers of Battledancing) and spells (Whirling Blade, Thunder Lance).

[Aspenor]

Slippers of Battledancing from the DMG II give charisma to-hit and damage in replacement of strength, if you have 5 ranks in Perform (Dance). Strong choice for a charisma-gish. They aren't cheap, though, and she couldn't afford them at level 4.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Slippers of Battledancing from the DMG II give charisma to-hit and damage in replacement of strength, if you have 5 ranks in Perform (Dance). Strong choice for a charisma-gish. They aren't cheap, though, and she couldn't afford them at level 4.

Yeah--they're on my to-do list, since they're basically a +12 STR item for the purposes of fighting in battle, but as I said, I'm not expecting instant results. The pieces will take awhile to fall into place. (This may even mean she doesn't fly to the front every battle, and she might have to be patient in order to be able to do the types of things she imagines her character doing, but that's true now anyway.)

What I'm looking for, more or less, are things that I should be looking for in the future--whether they're directly CHA-related (such as the Slippers of Battledancing) or not (Serpent Armor is something else on my to-do list, because Combat Reflexes is one of the few things that makes DEX-based melee tolerable).

[Divide by Zero]

Have you considered Suel Arcanamach (Complete Arcane)? Cha-based casting and tons of gishy abilities.

[balistafreak]

So, you have 4 levels of Sorcerer locked in already. Nymph's Kiss and Veil of Shadows (which I have no idea what it does) locked in. Stats locked in.

And now, just now, you want to rail-jump into Gish. Herrrrrrp, this is awkward.

Well, the only way to start contributing immediately in melee is to exercise that Dexterity stat.

Take a 5th level in Fighter, take Weapon Finesse. Take a 6th level in Swordsage, take Shadow Blade. Now that you've scraped back a +3/+3 to attack and damage, further boostable by items and spells, you enter JPM at 7th level. Partly through JPM/after finishing it, you might consider entering Abjurant Champion or other gish classes.

Now, this is the fastest entry into "competent melee". Better in the long run would be one of your aforementioned traditional builds, but that might take a while.

[true_shinken]

My advice is to trade Fighter away for something (as some people already pointed out).

Duskblade 2 gets you Combat casting and also a few spell slots for Versatile Spellcaster (take this feat NOW). It also opens up the dancing lights feats from Drow of the Underdark. Getting hypnotic pattern as an SLA is quite good (specially at low levels).

Warblade opens up Jade Phoenix Mage, waaaaaaay better than plain, vanilla, boring Eldritch Knight. Well, if you don't like vanilla, anyway.

If you have Dragon Compendium, Battle Dancer is also an option. Full bab and adds Cha to AC. Dancing in battle is kind of theme with good drow anyway (Drizz't is called 'the dancer' and Eilistrae and her clerics are all of the dancing variety).

[Lonely Tylenol]

Have you considered Suel Arcanamach (Complete Arcane)? Cha-based casting and tons of gishy abilities.

It's all right, but doesn't advance existing classes, so she'd be pigeonholed into a bunch of piteously low-leveled spells.


So, you have 4 levels of Sorcerer locked in already. Nymph's Kiss and Veil of Shadows (which I have no idea what it does) locked in. Stats locked in.

And now, just now, you want to rail-jump into Gish. Herrrrrrp, this is awkward.

No kidding! I kinda wish she would have told us she wanted a character that had martial skill from the get-go; if she did, some form of Duskblade or Warblade progression earlier on would have been possible without any issues.

I'm hoping the DM will let me take away Veil of Shadows, as she's never used it and will never use it. (It's a reserve feat from Complete Mage, which lets you cast a veil of shadows on the opponent which gives every attack they make a 50% miss chance, usable as long as a Shadow spell is in reserve.)


Well, the only way to start contributing immediately in melee is to exercise that Dexterity stat.

Take a 5th level in Fighter, take Weapon Finesse. Take a 6th level in Swordsage, take Shadow Blade. Now that you've scraped back a +3/+3 to attack and damage, further boostable by items and spells, you enter JPM at 7th level. Partly through JPM/after finishing it, you might consider entering Abjurant Champion or other gish classes.

Now, this is the fastest entry into "competent melee". Better in the long run would be one of your aforementioned traditional builds, but that might take a while.

Yeah, it would take awhile...

I think that or the Paladin route are the two big winners right now: The Paladin wins if she wants to be predominantly a caster, second a fighter (in which case, fighting supplements arcane tactics), and the Jade Phoenix Mage predominantly if she wants to be predominantly a fighter, second a caster (in which case casting supplements martial tactics). The Jade Phoenix build gives more of an instant reward (adding 2D10 to damage and making up all BAB losses instantly, with the promise of more; even better, getting that STR problem taken care of in only two levels).

That said, I don't know if it's worth it to carry Jade Phoenix Mage to its capstone. Does the ability to Quicken a spell apply to spontaneous casters as well?


My advice is to trade Fighter away for something (as some people already pointed out).

Yeah--the leading candidates right now are Fighter/Swashbuckler at 5 (for Weapon Finesse) with a Tome of Battle type at level 6, and two levels in Paladin, because it's too late to really benefit from Duskblade at this point (if she started as a Duskblade, or was able to get three levels into it, maybe).


Duskblade 2 gets you Combat casting and also a few spell slots for Versatile Spellcaster (take this feat NOW). It also opens up the dancing lights feats from Drow of the Underdark. Getting hypnotic pattern as an SLA is quite good (specially at low levels).

I don't have an opinion of the Dancing Lights feats (having never seen them, admittedly). Duskblade is good, but if I can rework Combat Casting in at level 3, there's no point to it, since I need those levels for a class that gets Jade Phoenix Mage.


Warblade opens up Jade Phoenix Mage, waaaaaaay better than plain, vanilla, boring Eldritch Knight. Well, if you don't like vanilla, anyway.

I'm concerned with the two lost caster levels. I mean, if they happened at 5 and 10, great, the delay in progress happens later, when it's surmountable; but at 1 and 6, it happens early on, and has to be fought back from.

Not saying it's off the table--right now it's one of my top two choices. But it's seedy.


If you have Dragon Compendium, Battle Dancer is also an option. Full bab and adds Cha to AC. Dancing in battle is kind of theme with good drow anyway (Drizz't is called 'the dancer' and Eilistrae and her clerics are all of the dancing variety).

I am half certain that the Dragon Compendium is off the table (but I have to beg for it anyway because the Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows are on it), but if so, holy balls a CHA bonus to AC for a 1-level dip, AND Perform (Dance) as a class skill? Sign me up.

If Dragon Compendium is a possibility, then Sorcerer 4/Battle Dancer 1/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 7 is possibly the best route to go with (since the CHA bonus to AC is untyped, applies to touch and flat-footed, and doesn't seem to have conflicts with force armor, as in Mage Armor and Shield). The Jade Phoenix Mage 1 ability frees up a feat, too, since Arcane Strike is made totally useless by it (unless you could use the two abilities together, consuming, say, two 4th-level spells to get a +8 to hit and 4d10+4d4 bonus damage?).

[only1doug]

Right, Paladin of Freedom. Keeps CG and gets Bluff. Double awesome.

Right now, though, the +6 to all saves that Paladin 2 gives me is looking the most tempting.

I'd be very tempted, I didn't list it earlier as someone had already mentioned it.


Actually, that does help--I'm not at all familiar with Swashbuckler. Duskblade doesn't give Combat Casting until level 2 though.

That doesn't mean that Swash 2 or Dusk 2 wouldn't give me both feats, though, even if I am still using the level 6 feat.


Sorry, posting by memory as I'm at work.


Was looking at luminous armor for its combination with Abjurant Champion (as it is actually an Abjuration spell, not Conjuration, like its Mage Armor counterparts). Not sure if the DM will try to kill me with the Book of Exalted Deeds if I use it while circumventing the STR penalty with special abilities, but if not I'll try it. The STR damage is seedy though, but I guess it just means she can take a hit much, much better than she can dish it out up until, say, level 9.

Greater Mighty Wallop won't help her character much directly, since most of her abilities pertain more to slashing, but I suppose it's good to at least have the option there (and what's stopping her from using a mace as well as a sword?).

I need to get myself a copy of Complete Mage... I'm pretty much the only person in my group that doesn't have it.

I Knew that about Luminous Armour, that's why I mentioned it... just typed faster than I could think I guess.

Complete mage is good, I'm sure someone else can lend it to you though.

I wasn't suggesting special abilities to remove the damage, spells or items would do the job. My Gish carried a rod of bodily restoration (i think that was the item name), handy for other occurrences of stat damage and fixes your spell inflicted damage too. GM can't really complain as you are using resources to fix the issue and will still suffer the bad effects until you have time to use it. (Worst case scenario: Luminous armour is dispelled in combat. Spell has ended so sacrifice is due. you now need to heal the damage and recast the armour, 2 actions + uses up the healing) I doubt many GMs would think that is too powerful.

[true_shinken]

I Knew that about Luminous Armour, that's why I mentioned it... just typed faster than I could think I guess.

The problem with luminous armor is that it's a sanctified spell.
Sanctified spells are, sadly, for prepared casters only.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'd be very tempted, I didn't list it earlier as someone had already mentioned it.

Sorry, posting by memory as I'm at work.

Both understandable.


I Knew that about Luminous Armour, that's why I mentioned it... just typed faster than I could think I guess.

Meh, it happens.


Complete mage is good, I'm sure someone else can lend it to you though.

Yeah, I've been looking over the DM's for reference, but it stays with him. I don't know enough about the Complete Mage stuff (outside of the Reserve Feats, as I use Fiery Burst on my Wizard). I didn't know the "Heart of" spells interacted with each other, heh.


I wasn't suggesting special abilities to remove the damage, spells or items would do the job. My Gish carried a rod of bodily restoration (i think that was the item name), handy for other occurrences of stat damage and fixes your spell inflicted damage too. GM can't really complain as you are using resources to fix the issue and will still suffer the bad effects until you have time to use it. (Worst case scenario: Luminous armour is dispelled in combat. Spell has ended so sacrifice is due. you now need to heal the damage and recast the armour, 2 actions + uses up the healing) I doubt many GMs would think that is too powerful.

Interesting!

Thanks!

EDIT:


The problem with luminous armor is that it's a sanctified spell.
Sanctified spells are, sadly, for prepared casters only.

Oh! That means I'D have to cast it! Sad face!

[Asheram]

... sorry, if this is a bit out there, but... a glaivelock?

[true_shinken]

... sorry, if this is a bit out there, but... a glaivelock?
I think that is A LOT out there... and I'm the forums' resident Warlock fanboy.

[CigarPete]

You should add Practiced Spellcaster to your required feat list. I would take it sooner, rather than later, so you can at least keep your CL effective when dipping into non-casting classes.

I also think that while the heart spells are very good for a wizard, they would be a waste for a sorcerer. Lock up 4 spells known that are only useful once/day, no thanks.

I'm actually using a Dex-based Gish in my current campaign, currently Fighter 2/Wizard 5/Spellsword 5/Abjurant Champ 2. However, mine is a lower optimization group than what it sounds like yours is and I didn't want to bring a new character in and dominate everything.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think that is A LOT out there... and I'm the forums' resident Warlock fanboy.

I'm going to agree... Especially because Sorcerer 4 pretty much pigeonholes the casting class into, well, Sorcerer.


You should add Practiced Spellcaster to your required feat list. I would take it sooner, rather than later, so you can at least keep your CL effective when dipping into non-casting classes.

I also think that while the heart spells are very good for a wizard, they would be a waste for a sorcerer. Lock up 4 spells known that are only useful once/day, no thanks.

I'm actually using a Dex-based Gish in my current campaign, currently Fighter 2/Wizard 5/Spellsword 5/Abjurant Champ 2. However, mine is a lower optimization group than what it sounds like yours is and I didn't want to bring a new character in and dominate everything.

It's actually a large group with something of a mix; the Scout has a good Deepwoods Sniper build they've been working on from the get-go; the Fighter has planned out progression into a homebrewed Dragoon class (which--you guessed it--does lots of jumping), but I'm not clear how "optimized" that is; and the Druid is, well... A Druid. The rest of us are new (myself and the Cleric), jumped in on short notice (the Bardbarian), or both (the Sorceress gish-to-be). It's about mid-optimization, and the DM forces us to think on our toes at times, with dozens of ghouls and lesser undead crawling out of the walls at the same time (in a level 4 encounter).

I'm tweaking her prospective gish build for two reasons: First, because my girlfriend is new at this, and I'd really like for her to be able to do some of the things that she imagines herself doing in the game, instead of being scared off by getting picked up and thrown down a hallway for enough damage to bleed out over at the first sign of trouble, like I was (thankfully I'm of the mind that jumps out of the chair and yells "awesome!" at that sort of thing). Second, because since she's new and not in the least bit technical (I think her character sheet scares her, just because of the large number of, well, numbers on it), and the gish concept itself is gimped through the lower levels, and we're adding a laughable STR attribute to the mix, the only way to make her relevant before level 12 is through optimization... And at the same time, I'm not expecting her to play the character as if it was optimized, so a high-optimization character in the hands of a low-optimization player isn't going to be as strong as the better of them in any case.

[Godskook]

The problem with luminous armor is that it's a sanctified spell.
Sanctified spells are, sadly, for prepared casters only.

Which is why Sorcadins who use it pick up Arcane Preparation.

@OP, you're building her too much like a fighter. She's *NOT* a fighter, she's a gish. Going down the feats you've got:

Combat Panache: Mild, and probably not worth a precious feat slot on a gish who needs things like Extend Spell still.

Intimidating Strike: Garbage unless you're stacking fear effects, and we're in the wrong build for that, let alone that you're not actually stacking any from anywhere else in the build.

Avenging Strike: Limited targets, hyper limited uses. About as worth it as shooting yourself in the foot, unless you *KNOW* that: A)There's going to be significant outsiders in your campaign and B)You're capable of doing a lot of nasty things with 1-2 shots. And besides, you can find other feats that do it better.

Combat Expertise/Improved Feint: You're investing two feats more feats into a single-attack combat style when a gish(with arcane strike) would rather full attack.

Weapon Finesse: Not horrible, but you're only getting a minor 15% benefit out of it. I think you can do better with more gish oriented feats.

Improved Toughness: Not needed. You can just learn spells that give temp-HP, like one of the Heart of X spells(I forget which).

-------------------------------

Arcane Preparation: 1 feat gives you access to:
-Greater Luminous Armor(+8 armor, -4 to enemy melee, +5 from Ab Champ, so an effective +17 AC against melee, which is significantly better than anything else you can get)
-Pearls of Power(yeah, that's right)

Extend + Persist: Persist is incredibly powerful, but if your DM is ok with it, you can go this route to get a *LOT* of buffage. Wraith Strike in particular will utterly change your to-hit issues from 'ugh' to "yes". If your DM doesn't want that much power on the field, or if he doesn't understand the danger, avoid the 1 round duration spells, and you will probably be ok.

Travel Devotion: Once you get your first level of Sacred Exorcist(worth dipping before you finish Ab Champ if possible, and then finish SE later), this becomes your best source of move + full attack.

Paladin + SE versus Fighter + Eldritch: You're only gaining some mediocre feats from the fighter dip, but Paladin grants you Cha to saves, which is already +6, and will rise to over +10 easily, meaning that you're going to auto-pass most saves unless you roll a 1. SE provides 9th level spells *AND* access to fuel for devotion feats. Eldritch provides you with only 1 feat, but pick any *TWO* on your list and compare it to being able to change into a dragon, stop time, or screaming half the enemy to *DEATH*. This shouldn't even be a question, and I didn't even look outside core or mention wish(now I did).

Spells:

Mirror Move + Heroics can be used to grab Shock Trooper with absolutely no feat cost, and without any rules interpretation(I.e, you can't snag Shock Troop with mirror move without prior DM approval, but grabbing it with heroics after having power attack and imp bull rush from mirror move is explicitly RAW and RAI). Note that you can qualify for a feat using items, so once she has a +4 Str item, she's golden to start seeing if she can pull this off. I advise that she carry eternal wands of Heroics so she can ensure she can pull this off even when not in a group that knows PA or Imp Bull rush(note: Heroics self-stacks)

Heart of X: Can't take precision damage or crit hits, and various other effects depending on the spell. Also grants about 30 temp HP, iirc. A great group of spells to stack.

UPD and UMD: Note that she's got a Cha that's going to hit +10 fairly soon(read: a +4 item, really). That means all she needs is a +9 from other sources to auto-pass 'trigger' item activation, such as wands and dorjes. You can get +3 from a circlet of persuasion, Nymph's Kiss adds +2, and a Mwk tool adds +2 as well, meaning only 2 ranks in either is needed. How useful this is depends a lot on how your DM handles magic items in your campaign. Still, worth noting.

[only1doug]

I also think that while the heart spells are very good for a wizard, they would be a waste for a sorcerer. Lock up 4 spells known that are only useful once/day, no thanks.


Heart of Air: Expend for featherfall: fairly meh but situationally useful
Heart of Earth: CLx2 temp hp + Expend for Stoneskin: Every Gish should learn this spell.
Heart of Fire: expend for fireshield: many enemies will be immune but could still be handy.
Heart of Water: Expend for freedom of movement. Useless, don't take it :smalltongue:

Even if you only take Water and Earth you can justify having more than 1/ day and still gain lesser fortification.


Edit:

Regarding feat choices: extend spell or sudden extend might be useful if you plan for her to have buffs. I loved the 32hr duration on my heart of... spells.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Which is why Sorcadins who use it pick up Arcane Preparation.

@OP, you're building her too much like a fighter. She's *NOT* a fighter, she's a gish. Going down the feats you've got:

I guess I can understand this. I had built most of the feat progression around the idea that she might get bored saying "I attack", so certain feats (like Combat Panache) were more flavorful combat applications than anything else.


Combat Panache: Mild, and probably not worth a precious feat slot on a gish who needs things like Extend Spell still.

Intimidating Strike: Garbage unless you're stacking fear effects, and we're in the wrong build for that, let alone that you're not actually stacking any from anywhere else in the build.

I had actually figured out a practical combination that would allow me to stack fear-based effects very easily and frighten somebody, which is why I threw that in, but now I can't even remember what it was for the life of me. I don't remember it involving spell-storing. Out it goes.

EDIT: I think it had something to do with persisted Haste shenanigans. Or maybe it was spell-storing.


Avenging Strike: Limited targets, hyper limited uses. About as worth it as shooting yourself in the foot, unless you *KNOW* that: A)There's going to be significant outsiders in your campaign and B)You're capable of doing a lot of nasty things with 1-2 shots. And besides, you can find other feats that do it better.

A lack of useful things I could find that use CHA for combat and didn't require Bardic Performance brought this along. Originally it was going to be a "replace any feat when and if it becomes an Evil Outsider campaign"--which is why I placed it at the end when I found nothing better.


Combat Expertise/Improved Feint: You're investing two feats more feats into a single-attack combat style when a gish(with arcane strike) would rather full attack.

Fair enough.


Weapon Finesse: Not horrible, but you're only getting a minor 15% benefit out of it. I think you can do better with more gish oriented feats.

Improved Toughness: Not needed. You can just learn spells that give temp-HP, like one of the Heart of X spells(I forget which).

I'll take these under consideration.


Arcane Preparation: 1 feat gives you access to:
-Greater Luminous Armor(+8 armor, -4 to enemy melee, +5 from Ab Champ, so an effective +17 AC against melee, which is significantly better than anything else you can get)
-Pearls of Power(yeah, that's right)

I guess that's worth it on the basis of Greater Luminous Armor alone--if the DM allows it.


Extend + Persist: Persist is incredibly powerful, but if your DM is ok with it, you can go this route to get a *LOT* of buffage. Wraith Strike in particular will utterly change your to-hit issues from 'ugh' to "yes". If your DM doesn't want that much power on the field, or if he doesn't understand the danger, avoid the 1 round duration spells, and you will probably be ok.

Well, you can expect my Wizard (as primary caster) or even the Bard (when she shows up) to be more of the buff types, even metamagic-types. In particular, my Wizard is going through Incantatrix, meaning that I, and I alone, can Persist other people's spells for free, so that role might well be delegated to me.


Travel Devotion: Once you get your first level of Sacred Exorcist(worth dipping before you finish Ab Champ if possible, and then finish SE later), this becomes your best source of move + full attack.

Not possible, unfortunately; even if I only delay caster progression two levels, she won't be learning dismissal until Abjurant Champion 5, if it's the first level 5 spell she learns.

You might have to explain how Sacred Exorcist breaks it, though; I can't see it being any different from my having Persisted Haste on her. (I'm not doubting you, but as you can see, I'm not exactly in the know here.)


Paladin + SE versus Fighter + Eldritch: You're only gaining some mediocre feats from the fighter dip, but Paladin grants you Cha to saves, which is already +6, and will rise to over +10 easily, meaning that you're going to auto-pass most saves unless you roll a 1. SE provides 9th level spells *AND* access to fuel for devotion feats. Eldritch provides you with only 1 feat, but pick any *TWO* on your list and compare it to being able to change into a dragon, stop time, or screaming half the enemy to *DEATH*. This shouldn't even be a question, and I didn't even look outside core or mention wish(now I did).

Yeah... Paladin + SE is looking to be the way to go for a more caster-heavy iteration of her character. (In my defense, I had never cracked open Complete Divine and didn't know much at all about Sacred Exorcist. When I first heard about it here, I thought it advanced divine classes.)

What are your thoughts on the Jade Phoenix Mage route offered here if she elects to go with a more martial route?


Spells:

Mirror Move + Heroics can be used to grab Shock Trooper with absolutely no feat cost, and without any rules interpretation(I.e, you can't snag Shock Troop with mirror move without prior DM approval, but grabbing it with heroics after having power attack and imp bull rush from mirror move is explicitly RAW and RAI). Note that you can qualify for a feat using items, so once she has a +4 Str item, she's golden to start seeing if she can pull this off. I advise that she carry eternal wands of Heroics so she can ensure she can pull this off even when not in a group that knows PA or Imp Bull rush(note: Heroics self-stacks)

You have to explain this one to me. I can (tenuously) buy Heroics self-stacking, but Mirror Move seems like an irrelevant link in the chain if nobody Bull Rushes. (That said, with a Fighter and a Barbarian in play, Power Attack has seen play in spades--not sure if this will always be so, though.)


Heart of X: Can't take precision damage or crit hits, and various other effects depending on the spell. Also grants about 30 temp HP, iirc. A great group of spells to stack.

I still need to borrow Complete Mage so I can see these for myself.


UPD and UMD: Note that she's got a Cha that's going to hit +10 fairly soon(read: a +4 item, really). That means all she needs is a +9 from other sources to auto-pass 'trigger' item activation, such as wands and dorjes. You can get +3 from a circlet of persuasion, Nymph's Kiss adds +2, and a Mwk tool adds +2 as well, meaning only 2 ranks in either is needed. How useful this is depends a lot on how your DM handles magic items in your campaign. Still, worth noting.

Psionics have been muted out, and casters are treated as just being able to use wands and such of their own volition (or at least, this is how it's been for myself and the cleric; it might be a prepared caster thing, but I don't think so).


Heart of Air: Expend for featherfall: fairly meh but situationally useful
Heart of Earth: CLx2 temp hp + Expend for Stoneskin: Every Gish should learn this spell.
Heart of Fire: expend for fireshield: many enemies will be immune but could still be handy.
Heart of Water: Expend for freedom of movement. Useless, don't take it :smalltongue:

Even if you only take Water and Earth you can justify having more than 1/ day and still gain lesser fortification.


Edit:

Regarding feat choices: extend spell or sudden extend might be useful if you plan for her to have buffs. I loved the 32hr duration on my heart of... spells.

Persist might be in my bag of tricks, since I'm going to be an Incantatrix and I literally have bonus feats coming out my rear. (If I decide against Archmage 5 at the end, I've spared myself two Spell Focuses and gained a bonus MM feat at 20 at the expense of losing Reach Spell, so even MORE metamagic goodness abounds!)

This also means that she won't need Persist, because I can Persist other spells without the spell increase... Though this might get used on Haste and Chained Greater Heroism and such instead.

[Jude_H]

JPM would solve a lot of problems. Devoted Spirit is made of melee endurance. Sorcerers usually need to improve their melee endurance.
It also provides a bit more damage output for a low-strength character.

Even if you're persisting 3.0 haste, Sacred Exorcist/Travel Devotion would still free up a standard action in a round with a full attack. That's a ridiculously good thing when you're juggling spells, attacks and possibly maneuvers.

[Aspenor]

The limitation of "prepared only" for sanctified spells is very, very stupid. It's just one more way the designers showed they hate sorcerers.

Any DM worth their salt will ignore that requirement.

[Lonely Tylenol]

JPM would solve a lot of problems. Devoted Spirit is made of melee endurance. Sorcerers usually need to improve their melee endurance.
It also provides a bit more damage output for a low-strength character.

Even if you're persisting 3.0 haste, Sacred Exorcist/Travel Devotion would still free up a standard action in a round with a full attack. That's a ridiculously good thing when you're juggling spells, attacks and possibly maneuvers.

Okay, I see the special bit about Travel Devotion using turn uses (which is fine, because the Cleric is a turning God and she... Won't be) and now get why Travel Devotion would be REALLY REALLY COOL to have.

On that note, are there any other Divine feats (or feats that require turning or rebuking) that are worth taking, that I overlooked when I read through everything because I originally had no intention of being able to turn or rebuke? My mind goes back to Divine Might, but if I recall you need Power Attack for that.

EDIT: Aspenor: If the DM allows it, I might get away with just that. If the DM doesn't, but allows the Mage Armor spells to be treated as Abjuration, then the difference is marginal enough that I can let it slide (and if not, casting Cat's Grace will act as a healthy supplement). I'm hoping for either of those, because that's the big reason behind getting Arcane Preparation.

[Paul H]

Hi

Does this have to be just 3.5?

Sorceror (Draconic) 1/Paladin 4/Dragon Disciple from Pathfinder works well.

DD grants 7/10 spellcasting, plus other stuff from the Sorceror class. Nat Armour, claw/bite attacks, breath weapon, ability to transform into a dragon, etc. (Note, Polymorph stuff works different in PF).

Most of the PF PrC's are more powerful than the 3.5 version.

Didn't mention Magus (Ultimate Magic - single class wiz/ftr gish), since that's neither cha based nor spont caster.

Thanks
Paul H

[Aspenor]

I would just dip cleric 1 and take Travel Devotion rather than spend a feat on it after going Sacred Exorcist, myself.

Other ideas:
Battledancer 1 (Dragon Compendium) gives CHA to AC at level 1
Arcane Duelist (WotC web page) gives CHA to AC at level 2
Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian gives easy Pounce access if you don't want to use travel devotion
War Mage (Dragonlance: Age of Mortals) gives yet another CHA to AC

You can also go with a bard base instead of sorcerer, get into Sublime Chord, advance Sublime Chord with casting PrC's, and use Snowflake Wardance to get CHA to hit a second time above the Slippers of Battledancing.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Hi

Does this have to be just 3.5?

Sorceror (Draconic) 1/Paladin 4/Dragon Disciple from Pathfinder works well.

DD grants 7/10 spellcasting, plus other stuff from the Sorceror class. Nat Armour, claw/bite attacks, breath weapon, ability to transform into a dragon, etc. (Note, Polymorph stuff works different in PF).

Most of the PF PrC's are more powerful than the 3.5 version.

Didn't mention Magus (Ultimate Magic - single class wiz/ftr gish), since that's neither cha based nor spont caster.

Thanks
Paul H

Yeah, it's just 3.5. Not only does my DM not have any Pathfinder source books, but he isn't familiar with the system and I don't think he's a big fan of the system. (I don't mind it--the 1/2 feat progression lets you do things a little differently, which opens more options. I'm writing up a campaign myself using the Pathfinder system, which is much more user-friendly, but using 3.5 feats, prestige classes, etc--with the caveat that certain caster classes, like Shadowcraft Mage, Incantatrix, and the like, don't upgrade to d6 HD, and certain other balancing factors.)

EDIT: Arcane Duelist probably isn't allowed, since it's web-based (and thus not from an official source). It also looks pretty bad, since it doesn't advance arcane progression at all, but has huge requirements.

Battledancer is part of the alternate build for martial-centric progression (Sorcerer 4/Battle Dancer 1/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 7). I'm not sure the DM will allow it, though, as both Tome of Battle and Dragon Compendium are seedy.

[CyMage]

One bit of info about Sanctified spells. The penalty comes when the spell expires, not when cast.

[Godskook]

I guess that's worth it on the basis of Greater Luminous Armor alone--if the DM allows it.

Its RAW legal, and merely gives the Sorc things the Wizard already had, so there really shouldn't be a problem here.


Not possible, unfortunately; even if I only delay caster progression two levels, she won't be learning dismissal until Abjurant Champion 5, if it's the first level 5 spell she learns.

I didn't check books to see if SE was accessible before lvl 13, but that's not too important.


You might have to explain how Sacred Exorcist breaks it, though; I can't see it being any different from my having Persisted Haste on her. (I'm not doubting you, but as you can see, I'm not exactly in the know here.)

Travel Devotion gives only 1 use per day initially. It gives an additional use for each 2 turning attempts you burn into it. Sacred Exorcist grants turning at the first level. So, once you have SE, you can use Travel Devotion more often(with Cha +10, 7 times per day).

And it lasts for a minute per use. So she's good to go for 7 different combats.


What are your thoughts on the Jade Phoenix Mage route offered here if she elects to go with a more martial route?

JPM is typically a wizard prestige class, since it has 8/10 casting on its own. If you're ok with her losing 9ths, though, it could still be doable.


You have to explain this one to me. I can (tenuously) buy Heroics self-stacking, but Mirror Move seems like an irrelevant link in the chain if nobody Bull Rushes. (That said, with a Fighter and a Barbarian in play, Power Attack has seen play in spades--not sure if this will always be so, though.)

1.Buy cheap eternal wand of heroics, since duration doesn't matter for this combo
2.Cast eternal wand of heroics on ally(or allies), picking feats you want to learn with Mirror Move.
3.Cast persisted Mirror Move, picking up those feats. In the case I was talking about, that'd be PA and ImpBullRush.
4.Cast persisted Heroics on yourself, picking up Shocktrooper.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Its RAW legal, and merely gives the Sorc things the Wizard already had, so there really shouldn't be a problem here.

This is true.


I didn't check books to see if SE was accessible before lvl 13, but that's not too important.

For what it's worth, I didn't know myself--the class is available at level 7 to Clerics (who get both 10 ranks of the appropriate skill and Dismissal, which is level 4 for Clerics only, at level 7), but a Wizard doesn't get Dismissal until 9, a Sorceress until 10, and with the two-level delay... Well, yeh.


Travel Devotion gives only 1 use per day initially. It gives an additional use for each 2 turning attempts you burn into it. Sacred Exorcist grants turning at the first level. So, once you have SE, you can use Travel Devotion more often(with Cha +10, 7 times per day).

And it lasts for a minute per use. So she's good to go for 7 different combats.

Yeah, I was a little late to that party, but I get it now.

Do you recommend any of the other Devotion/Domain feats? I've looked them over, and a lot of them seem impressive. Air, Fire, Magic, Protection and Trickery in particular seem like they could be useful for different situations.



JPM is typically a wizard prestige class, since it has 8/10 casting on its own. If you're ok with her losing 9ths, though, it could still be doable.

I'll ask her what she prefers--and make the changes accordingly. Personally, I prefer the Paladin route, which auto-succeeds Fortitude and Will saves by the late-mid levels, and the Domain feats look just ridiculous.


1.Buy cheap eternal wand of heroics, since duration doesn't matter for this combo
2.Cast eternal wand of heroics on ally(or allies), picking feats you want to learn with Mirror Move.
3.Cast persisted Mirror Move, picking up those feats. In the case I was talking about, that'd be PA and ImpBullRush.
4.Cast persisted Heroics on yourself, picking up Shocktrooper.

Okay, yeah. I get it now. Looks cool. (Also looks like it doesn't need to be a spell known to her for her to use it.)

[Optimator]

Power Attack might still be useful, since Polymorphing into a Sun Giant or War Troll or a Firbolg or any number of other, tamer things will take care of the low strength score.

Actually, Bite of the Weretiger and I think Werebear also give Power Attack. So does Heroics. Don't forget about Wraithstrike either. Power Attack might be worth taking.

[Godskook]

Do you recommend any of the other Devotion/Domain feats? I've looked them over, and a lot of them seem impressive. Air, Fire, Magic, Protection and Trickery in particular seem like they could be useful for different situations.

There's the rub. Travel devotion is going to be eating a *LOT* of her turning attempts, depending on how long the work day is in your group. Minimally, you should plan on using 6 turning attempts, which means you'll only have ~7 attempts left to fuel another feat.

Assuming you're working with <+10 Cha, a 4 encounter workday, and Travel Devotion is your primary devotion feat.

Animal Devotion is great, but you lack the attempts to utilize it reliably until *REALLY* late game.

Law is decent, but has the same issues.

Strength is decent, and is *EASY* to power. Soaks you down to 3 attempts if you use it though. Since it does nothing to aid your build other than add another attack, I'd prioritize it *REALLY* low against things that'd help you out elsewhere, like Animal Devotion.

Air is too costly to consider, since it replicates a miss chance, and you get one of those from spells already, and your AC is going to be through the roof if you took Arcane Preparation.

Fire is garbage cause the damage is low and typed, which against many high level foes, means resisted.

Magic is a *BAD* feat, imho. I compare it unfavorably with reserve feats, and those are typically considered low-powered feats, only to be considered by batman/god wizards who want a sustainable option. Your character has a sustainable option, so pass on the feat that's the retarded cousin of a reserve feat.

Protection is expensive, and for this build personally, doesn't add anything you can't already get with AC spells. Pass unless your DM prevents all the armor-AC spells from combo-ing with Ab-Champ. Even then, it is going to wind up competing with Travel Devotion for turning attempts, which you aren't getting as many of as you'd want to fuel these babies.

Trickery is odd, expensive, but possibly worth it in the hands of an experienced player. I get the impression that your friend is a late-stage beginner. Pass.


Okay, yeah. I get it now. Looks cool. (Also looks like it doesn't need to be a spell known to her for her to use it.)

Well, if the incantrix can simply persist spells cast from wands, no, it doesn't.

If she needs to persist anything herself, it does.

Just be sure to keep plenty of wands on hand if you go the unknown spell route.

[only1doug]

1.Buy cheap eternal wand of heroics, since duration doesn't matter for this combo
2.Cast eternal wand of heroics on ally(or allies), picking feats you want to learn with Mirror Move.
3.Cast persisted Mirror Move, picking up those feats. In the case I was talking about, that'd be PA and ImpBullRush.
4.Cast persisted Heroics on yourself, picking up Shocktrooper.




Okay, yeah. I get it now. Looks cool. (Also looks like it doesn't need to be a spell known to her for her to use it.)

Important Questions:
Will she have the patience to remember to activate complicated combo's like this?
Would the GM just handwave the combo as being activated daily after it has been explained once?
Will your group be Okay with you explaining it every time the party has rested for the night?
If the answer to all of these is No then combo's like this should be avoided.

[Mezmote]

I can see no one mentioned the Arcane Disciple feat from complete divine. Arcane Disciple (Strength domain) gives her character with 14 wisdom access to Divine Power. It helps with any base attack issues she might have. On the way she also get a few other buffs.

[Lonely Tylenol]

There's the rub. Travel devotion is going to be eating a *LOT* of her turning attempts, depending on how long the work day is in your group. Minimally, you should plan on using 6 turning attempts, which means you'll only have ~7 attempts left to fuel another feat.

Assuming you're working with <+10 Cha, a 4 encounter workday, and Travel Devotion is your primary devotion feat.

Animal Devotion is great, but you lack the attempts to utilize it reliably until *REALLY* late game.

Law is decent, but has the same issues.

Strength is decent, and is *EASY* to power. Soaks you down to 3 attempts if you use it though. Since it does nothing to aid your build other than add another attack, I'd prioritize it *REALLY* low against things that'd help you out elsewhere, like Animal Devotion.

Air is too costly to consider, since it replicates a miss chance, and you get one of those from spells already, and your AC is going to be through the roof if you took Arcane Preparation.

Fire is garbage cause the damage is low and typed, which against many high level foes, means resisted.

Magic is a *BAD* feat, imho. I compare it unfavorably with reserve feats, and those are typically considered low-powered feats, only to be considered by batman/god wizards who want a sustainable option. Your character has a sustainable option, so pass on the feat that's the retarded cousin of a reserve feat.

Protection is expensive, and for this build personally, doesn't add anything you can't already get with AC spells. Pass unless your DM prevents all the armor-AC spells from combo-ing with Ab-Champ. Even then, it is going to wind up competing with Travel Devotion for turning attempts, which you aren't getting as many of as you'd want to fuel these babies.

Trickery is odd, expensive, but possibly worth it in the hands of an experienced player. I get the impression that your friend is a late-stage beginner. Pass.

Trickery is the one I would take alongside Mobility, because, when used properly, it can granted a second attack source, which can be even more critical than a second movement source. It's something I would only consider suggesting if, by the time she hits level 13 or so, she's learned how to make use of her character well--otherwise, I'd stick with simpler combinations and interactions.


Well, if the incantrix can simply persist spells cast from wands, no, it doesn't.

If she needs to persist anything herself, it does.

Just be sure to keep plenty of wands on hand if you go the unknown spell route.

There's no reason I can't give the Fighter feats anyway. All she needs is Mirror Move, basically.


Important Questions:
Will she have the patience to remember to activate complicated combo's like this?
Would the GM just handwave the combo as being activated daily after it has been explained once?
Will your group be Okay with you explaining it every time the party has rested for the night?
If the answer to all of these is No then combo's like this should be avoided.

In order:
Maybe, when she gets a better feel for the game and is more actively involved in move interactions; if not, all she needs to do is cast Mirror Move at the right time anyway (since I can metamagic up wand uses).
Maybe; he's hand-waved simpler combos. Since more screwball combinations have to be explained to the DM anyway, he's going to hear it at least once no matter how it's played, and he's sharp enough to get it after the first or second go.
No.

The presumption is that I, as the primary caster, can do all the Heroics stuff, granting feats wherever necessary, and that she just needs to Mirror Move at the appropriate time to get the feats.

It's also not something I have to worry about now anyway, since she doesn't have the STR to qualify for Power Attack and won't until an item permits it.


I can see no one mentioned the Arcane Disciple feat from complete divine. Arcane Disciple (Strength domain) gives her character with 14 wisdom access to Divine Power. It helps with any base attack issues she might have. On the way she also get a few other buffs.

I think the War domain gives access to Divine Power. Strength gives Spell Immunity.

What I need to know is: Are these spells regarded as already being known, or does the Sorceress, after gaining access to these spells from Arcane Disciple, have to learn them over time through standard progression? (Basically: Does this spell add to the number of spells known?)

[Godskook]

Trickery is the one I would take alongside Mobility, because, when used properly, it can granted a second attack source, which can be even more critical than a second movement source. It's something I would only consider suggesting if, by the time she hits level 13 or so, she's learned how to make use of her character well--otherwise, I'd stick with simpler combinations and interactions.

You're confused.

1.It doesn't get saves against AoE attacks.

2.It has a max of 26 HP at lvl 20.

3.The feat does not ever give the copy explicit access to feats, magical items, buffs(!), or casting of the original.

4.It has 1/2 the str of the original

Exactly how is this thing going to be a combat threat when most things are going to be able to 1-shot it, and it quite likely doesn't have any response.


What I need to know is: Are these spells regarded as already being known, or does the Sorceress, after gaining access to these spells from Arcane Disciple, have to learn them over time through standard progression? (Basically: Does this spell add to the number of spells known?)

"Must learn the spell normally"

Just taking the feat only gives you the right to use scrolls and wands without UMD. On top of that, the spells are castable 1/day.

-----------------

Also, I forgot to mention that Divine Might(Deity section of SRD) is probably your best second turning feat. It'll add a significant amount of nuking power and the 1 turn per use cost isn't nearly as bad as devotion feats are.

[true_shinken]

Yeah, Arcane Disciple is terrible for Sorcerers.
It's only good for those casters that don't need to worry about spells known, because they know everything in the list (warblade, beguiler, dread necromancer) or because they get a lot of spells known (duskblade).

[Lonely Tylenol]

You're confused.

1.It doesn't get saves against AoE attacks.

2.It has a max of 26 HP at lvl 20.

3.The feat does not ever give the copy explicit access to feats, magical items, buffs(!), or casting of the original.

4.It has 1/2 the str of the original

Exactly how is this thing going to be a combat threat when most things are going to be able to 1-shot it, and it quite likely doesn't have any response.

The ability to copy combat actions and maneuvers (even with a piteous Strength score) can produce effective results--again, if it's being used creatively. The simulacrum can be used to provide an instant flank advantage, assist in trip attempts, etc. Being able to Bluff which one is which is also useful, again, if applied effectively. It's a matter of being able to control space and trip up the opponent instead of overcome them through sheer force and a "two is stronger than one" mentality. Putting the simulacrum behind you, then tricking the dumb troll into thinking that you are the simulacrum and the fake is the real thing, can prompt it to charge past you at the fake--provoking an attack of opportunity, a trip attempt, what-have you. Knocking it to the ground, and then ganging up on it with the simulacrum, can have marked advantages.

Like I said, it's something that needs to be used effectively and creatively, or not at all--so while I might delight in using it to control space and deceive opponents in combat (being the persnickety little fool that I am), I'm not expecting her to use it, and thus I'm not going to ask her to take it.


"Must learn the spell normally"

Just taking the feat only gives you the right to use scrolls and wands without UMD. On top of that, the spells are castable 1/day.

And, for that matter (moved for redundancy in my answer):


Yeah, Arcane Disciple is terrible for Sorcerers.
It's only good for those casters that don't need to worry about spells known, because they know everything in the list (warblade, beguiler, dread necromancer) or because they get a lot of spells known (duskblade).

Yeah, I saw this almost immediately after posting that (having looked up the feat myself), and immediately turned my nose up at it; it sounds like something that could be great for a Duskblade gish, and good for a Wizard (who just needs to go out and learn the spell), but pretty terrible for a Sorceress, unless you have ready access to Knowstones in your campaign (and I'm quite certain that we don't in mine).


Also, I forgot to mention that Divine Might(Deity section of SRD) is probably your best second turning feat. It'll add a significant amount of nuking power and the 1 turn per use cost isn't nearly as bad as devotion feats are.

Requirements: STR 13, turn or rebuke undead ability, Power Attack.

:C

Don't think I haven't drooled over it a dozen times since I made this thread, though... If it ever gets to that point, she can probably glean it from Mirror Move/Heroics when she gets into "turn/rebuke" levels... But at present, the Power Attack requirement (not to mention the attribute requirement, which is at present insurmountable) put it beyond my grasp.

[King Atticus]

Spells of note:
Shield and Mage Armor (if I can get the DM to house rule it as Abjuration)


The Mage Armor was errata'd out (for obvious reasons) but I was able to get my DM to agree to the duration but not the bonus for Abjurant Champion class level.

If you want to go for actual armor I'd go for a +x Mithral Shirt with the Twilight enhancement to get rid of that pesky arcane spell failure chance.

Lastly, with this being her first (I'm assuming) character, I might think about avoiding maneuver type classes. While they are a great choice for power and optimization they can be overwhelming and it's easy to overlook things with them if you're still trying to pick up game mechanics at the same time.

[Greenish]

Avenging Strike is actually not that bad for Cha-based gishes. Well, the Cyran Avenger class feature, not the feat of the same name. :smallcool:

[true_shinken]

Avenging Strike is actually not that bad for Cha-based gishes. Well, the Cyran Avenger class feature, not the feat of the same name. :smallcool:

And indeed, Cyran Avenger is a good choice here, as is with any Cha-based gish.

[Godskook]

The problem with that class is that it will be quite difficult to get 9ths with it.

[Axinian]

And indeed, Cyran Avenger is a good choice here, as is with any Cha-based gish.
What book is this from? Anything that's a good choice for gishes, I like.

[Greenish]

What book is this from? Anything that's a good choice for gishes, I like.Five Nations, an Eberron book.

[Edit]: Cyre was one of the Five Nations, until it went kaboom. That's what Cyran Avenger is trying to avenge.

[Axinian]

Five Nations, an Eberron book.

[Edit]: Cyre was one of the Five Nations, until it went kaboom. That's what Cyran Avenger is trying to avenge.
Thanks.

Huh. Knight Phantom and Bone Knight are in that book too. Good book for gishes I guess.

[true_shinken]

Thanks.

Huh. Knight Phantom and Bone Knight are in that book too. Good book for gishes I guess.

Good book all around. Tasty, tasty fluff.

[Maho-Tsukai]

This may sound odd, but how dose she feel about aligenment and necromancy? If she dose not care about being good and dose not mind necromancy a Dread Necromancer can be a high-cha Gish without even needing tons and tons of strength. Sure, DNs don't get buffs, BUT with toumb-tainted soul + charnel touch and DR you won't hit me they are VERY tough and they can do some seirous dammage with touch spells, meaning you can worry less about strength dammage-wise. The REAL secrect to DN melee, however, is fear. DNs can make excelent fear mongers and with a certain feat who's name I forget(Was it Imperious Command?) they can use their fear aura + intimidate(which benifits from a high cha) to make enemies cower at their feat like scared little kids as they hack them to bits with the one martial weapon they get profiency with. Thats partly what makes them good at melee...the ability to make people into cowering wrecks that put up no fight. The only issue with DNs is that after a certain point they start to be better casters and undead horde masters then melee fighters and a dedicated sorc gish will be a better melee fighter then a DN ultimatly, it's just the Sorc gish takes longer to blossom.

Also, for the sorc route, did you ever consider stacking battle sorcerer + stalwart sorcerer? Battle sorc totally negates the downsides of Stalwart Sorc and by stacking the two you get better BAB, a d12 for your HD, a martial weapon(s?) and the ability to cast in light armor. You do, however, get less spells as a result, though.

[Lonely Tylenol]

So, she ended up changing her mind and sticking with straight Illusion-based Sorceress progression (which, to me, means Sorceress 4/Shadowcrafter 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter 6/Shadow Adept 1), rendering all my hard-earned work and your good advice in this thread worthless...

...HOWEVER, I've become so enamored with the concept that I've rolled a Sorcadin myself, with the Paladin 2/Sorceress 4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 progression and the suggestions you guys have offered here. However, I've made one big thematic change: I've decided to make the character more or less a straight martial character, avoiding problems with action economy by keeping an array of useful Immediate Action spells on top of the staples of the craft.

I will be using this for reference for that character in the future.

Thanks, everybody!