Incantatrix question

[the clumsy bard]

The class ability focused studies.

It says you have to give up another school of magic. If you are already a specialist wizard then you would have 3 banned schools instead of 2.

Now if I am a specialist wizard who has taken the ACF focused specialist, would I then have 4 banned schools if I take levels in Incantatrix?

[Diarmuid]

That's they way I understand it.

[GodGoblin]

Yes, regardless of how many banned schools you already have Incantatrix makes you ban one more.

[the clumsy bard]

That's what I figured.

It seemed pretty clear cut.

Oh well.

Thanks for the very fast responses though!

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yes, regardless of how many banned schools you already have Incantatrix makes you ban one more.

The thing that got me about this is it means that if you didn't specialize, you can now specialize in any class without giving up two schools.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The class ability focused studies.

It says you have to give up another school of magic. If you are already a specialist wizard then you would have 3 banned schools instead of 2.

Now if I am a specialist wizard who has taken the ACF focused specialist, would I then have 4 banned schools if I take levels in Incantatrix?

The Focused studies class feature only bars you from learning the spells, not casting them, so before you take your first (?) level of Incantatix, spend all your gold on getting scrolls from the school you want to bar, get all the nice spells and never look back.

[GodGoblin]

Would it? I assumed it would simply make you ban one school, doesnt specialise you so its more you just get the negative aspect. But its been a while since I read the full text so I could be well off.

Edit- Damn Ninjas! but thats good that it only for learning, makes more sense now.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Would it? I assumed it would simply make you ban one school, doesnt specialise you so its more you just get the negative aspect. But its been a while since I read the full text so I could be well off.

Edit- Damn Ninjas! but thats good that it only for learning, makes more sense now.

Yeah, you're right; you just lose the school. Silly me.

Holy cow, it's 6 AM.

You can learn spells up until you choose a forbidden school, though, meaning that, if you PrC into Incantatrix from Wizard at level 6, you could learn any level 3 or lower spells of that school while at level 5, and always have them available to you as a result (as long as your spellbook is available). Thus, if there are any crazy good spells you want before you choose your forbidden school, you should be making a mad dash to get them right... About...... Now.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yeah, you're right; you just lose the school. Silly me.

Holy cow, it's 6 AM.

You can learn spells up until you choose a forbidden school, though, meaning that, if you PrC into Incantatrix from Wizard at level 6, you could learn any level 3 or lower spells of that school while at level 5, and always have them available to you as a result (as long as your spellbook is available). Thus, if there are any crazy good spells you want before you choose your forbidden school, you should be making a mad dash to get them right... About...... Now.

Actually, nothing stops you from scribing say Wish at level 1 on your spellbook; you wouldn't be able to cast it till level 17; but it is right there in your trusty tome, for when you can use it.

[the clumsy bard]

That changes things greatly...

Starts thinking of x spells that will be useful from banned school.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, no, no. The 3.0 Incantatrix (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803) allowed you to retain the spells you already learned from your now-banned school. The 3.5 Incantatrix in PGtF has no such allowance, so it works exactly as a Wizard's prohibited school, i.e. "Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard..." Even if you already learned those spells, they are no longer available.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Really? well... damn, that's what I get for not checking...

[GodGoblin]

Well that sure sucks... But complaining about that is like complaining about the best meal in the world because you dont like the plate. Its still the best thing ever so suck up the downsides and dig in! :smallbiggrin:

[Lonely Tylenol]

Really? well... damn, that's what I get for not checking...

I have no excuse; I'm just terrible at this. :smallwink:

I just assumed that, since no change was explicitly stated in Player's Guide to Faerun, it worked the same as the 3.0 version did. Guess not.

[HalfDragonCube]

So the doubly specialised changeling racial sub and the focused specialist ACF and the Incantatrix Prc gives you five barred schools and three specialised ones?

...

[Eiko]

Dont forget to throw a certain tatoo'd circle loving mage in the mix to bring yourself up to 6 banned schools.

So I heard you like divination?

[Divide by Zero]

Dont forget to throw a certain tatoo'd circle loving mage in the mix to bring yourself up to 6 banned schools.

So I heard you like divination?

So at that point, you have to ban 6/8 schools. However, you also have two specializations, neither of which are Divination. So what happens now?

[GodGoblin]

We all know you cant ban Divination but I thought you could specialise?

[Divide by Zero]

We all know you cant ban Divination but I thought you could specialise?

The build in question was using the changeling substitution levels, which give you a double specialization in Illusion and Transmutation.

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, nothing stops you from scribing say Wish at level 1 on your spellbook; you wouldn't be able to cast it till level 17; but it is right there in your trusty tome, for when you can use it.

I routinely use this in higher op games to reduce my scribing costs. If I don't need both automatic spells at any given level, pick something I really want later that's expensive.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I routinely use this in higher op games to reduce my scribing costs. If I don't need both automatic spells at any given level, pick something I really want later that's expensive.

It never occurred to me to do that, which unsurprisingly is quite good...hmmm that is good to know.

[HalfDragonCube]

It never occurred to me to do that, which unsurprisingly is quite good...hmmm that is good to know.

Whoa.


At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.

Of any spell level? That doesn't even say that the 'any spell level' thing has to be from the Wizard spell list.

You won't be able to cast it yourself of course, but you could have a Wizard and a Wu Jen who learn each others spells at each level.

[Tyndmyr]

Whoa.

Of any spell level? That doesn't even say that the 'any spell level' thing has to be from the Wizard spell list.

You won't be able to cast it yourself of course, but you could have a Wizard and a Wu Jen who learn each others spells at each level.

Right, just because it's scribed doesn't mean you can prepare it.

Of course, abusing RAW at this level will mean your DM might look more carefully at your prestige classes not giving you free spells known(some do, some don't, depends on verbage).

[HalfDragonCube]

Right, just because it's scribed doesn't mean you can prepare it.

Of course, abusing RAW at this level will mean your DM might look more carefully at your prestige classes not giving you free spells known(some do, some don't, depends on verbage).

And possibly throw books containing Prcs at you.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

That doesn't seem all that clear-cut to me. Going by the SRD quote above, wouldn't the wizard, y'know, have to be able to cast the spells? A level 1 wizard can't cast wish without piles of other shenanigans.

OP: To mitigate this, instead of focused specialization you can go Elven Generalist Domain Wizard. If you can snag the moth animal companion from one of the dragon magazines, you'll nab two spell levels worth spellcraft bonus as well.

[Tyndmyr]

That doesn't seem all that clear-cut to me. Going by the SRD quote above, wouldn't the wizard, y'know, have to be able to cast the spells? A level 1 wizard can't cast wish without piles of other shenanigans.

That entirely depends on how you parse it. "any spell level" or "levels that she can cast..." is grammatically correct RAW.

As mentioned before, it would almost certainly qualify as an abuse of RAW, and in anything but the highest op games is likely to result in books being thrown at you.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

"At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook."

You're saying we can parse this two ways.
A. The wizard is limited to learning spells of "levels that she can cast," but she can pick spells of different spell levels.
B. The wizard gains two new spells of any level... or two new spells which are a subset of "any level." It works grammatically, but it makes no sense in context.

It just seems like, if you really want to dig into RAW shenanigans, you might as well just grab a candle of invocation and go to town. Clearer interpretation, broader application. I understand that forum discussions use RAW as the baseline, but when there are two potentially valid RAW interpretations, it's up to the local DM to make the call, and call me crazy but I think most DMs aren't going to go with B.

[Dusk Eclipse]

To be honest I don't see what is the problem with letting a wizard scribe... say Time Stop with his free level up spells of level 3, he won't be using it till level 17 in any case.

[ericgrau]

What if he spends 150 gp x spell level per spell on a spellbook + copying materials and copies a whole lot more than that? Say... almost every spell he could ever want?

[Dusk Eclipse]

What if he spends 150 gp x spell level per spell on a spellbook + copying materials and copies a whole lot more than that? Say... almost every spell he could ever want?

That is the normal way isn't it? And I am not really getting, what you are saying.

[Aspenor]

Oh please, seriously? "level or levels you can cast" means that you can choose spells from different levels, but you still need to be able to cast them. It's simple grammar, there is NO other interpretation.

Incantrix cannot cast spells from the newly banned school, as stated above.

Of course, you can just be a dual-specialized focused specialist changeling with either the Racial Emulation feat or Human Heritage and toss in Red Wizard and Incantrix. Now you go on a quest to find that magic book thing (name escapes me now) that has every arcane spell in existence. Due to the Transmuter ACF that allows for a wizard to change a spell to be a transmutation, you may still learn and use every spell in existence, even though you have banned 5 schools.

How's that for cheese?

[Hornstien]

Well just an FYI but there are a couple of sneaky feats that allow you to maneuver around a banned school restriction. In fact their are a list of them. I need a little more time to figure out were I placed the book with the info but I found this in an old copy of dragon magazine.

Diversified Casting
[General]
(DR325 p61)* number of issue and page #
(Requirement) At least one Prohibited School of Magic
(Effect)
You may add up to three spells from one Prohibited School of Magic to your spell list. This allows you to
use spell-completion and spell-trigger items based on these spells in addition to being able cast them.
You may take this feat once for each Prohibited School of Magic you have. Each time, this feat applies to a
different School.

There are a series of feats that allow you to regain the ability to cast from a banned school. The first in the series allows you to cast scrolls from the banned school, the next allows you to cast spells from the banned school through spell trigger items such as wands/staffs (disclaimer: there may be two different feats for casting from wands or staffs, memory is fuzzy on this point), and then finally requiring both previous feats the next feat allows you no holds bar access to the previously banned school. If you have a rules junky as a friend, one who is really into research, he might be able to find it before me, but for right now this is what I can give you.

[Aspenor]

Well just an FYI but there are a couple of sneaky feats that allow you to maneuver around a banned school restriction. In fact their are a list of them. I need a little more time to figure out were I placed the book with the info but I found this in an old copy of dragon magazine.

Diversified Casting
[General]
(DR325 p61)* number of issue and page #
(Requirement) At least one Prohibited School of Magic
(Effect)
You may add up to three spells from one Prohibited School of Magic to your spell list. This allows you to
use spell-completion and spell-trigger items based on these spells in addition to being able cast them.
You may take this feat once for each Prohibited School of Magic you have. Each time, this feat applies to a
different School.

There are a series of feats that allow you to regain the ability to cast from a banned school. The first in the series allows you to cast scrolls from the banned school, the next allows you to cast spells from the banned school through spell trigger items such as wands/staffs (disclaimer: there may be two different feats for casting from wands or staffs, memory is fuzzy on this point), and then finally requiring both previous feats the next feat allows you no holds bar access to the previously banned school. If you have a rules junky as a friend, one who is really into research, he might be able to find it before me, but for right now this is what I can give you.

The cheese I mentioned above is far more effective if allowed. Instead of getting just one school back, you get all of them. You also gain 2 spell slots per spell level...at least two.

[Alleran]

There are a series of feats that allow you to regain the ability to cast from a banned school. The first in the series allows you to cast scrolls from the banned school, the next allows you to cast spells from the banned school through spell trigger items such as wands/staffs (disclaimer: there may be two different feats for casting from wands or staffs, memory is fuzzy on this point), and then finally requiring both previous feats the next feat allows you no holds bar access to the previously banned school. If you have a rules junky as a friend, one who is really into research, he might be able to find it before me, but for right now this is what I can give you.
Lost Empires of Faerun.

Spell Reprieve
Item Reprieve
Arcane Transfiguration

Those are the three, but I don't recall if you can take them more than once or not.

[Hornstien]

Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to best your option at all. It's just that I saw something that hadn't been added yet as an option and wished to show another way of going about it. Also if someone has already made their character and still wishes to cast from a banned school then this might be a viable option.

Personally I think that the feat that I listed above is a bit lack luster, but I would personally rule that if you wished to spend a feat for three spells each time, then you should (and I say again, in my opinion) be able to continue picking from the same school. Given that feats are generally a major resource to be giving up.

Good gaming everyone.

[Hornstien]

Lost Empires of Faerun.

Spell Reprieve
Item Reprieve
Arcane Transfiguration

Those are the three, but I don't recall if you can take them more than once or not.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! You can not even begin to imagine how glad I am that I don't have to manually get down all those books and check the feat sections. Also, if I'm not mistaken, I seem to remember that you can take them more. I believe that it just has the old adage about taking them for a different school the next time (WARNING: For those of you who do not wish to read something terribly corny, and that was totally ripped from the pbs show Reading Rainbow, stop reading here.) "But you don't have to take my word for it. Go pickup a book (or pdf) today!" :smalltongue:

Also was I the only geeky kid or did anyone else notice that the host of the show was Jordy from Star Trek: The Next Generation? That was half the reason I watched the show, the other half was that I was and still am addicted to reading. (O)_(O)

Good gaming

[Divide by Zero]

Also was I the only geeky kid or did anyone else notice that the host of the show was Jordy from Star Trek: The Next Generation? That was half the reason I watched the show, the other half was that I was and still am addicted to reading. (O)_(O)

Geordi*

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Reading Rainbow got me into Star Trek.

[Douglas]

Due to the Transmuter ACF that allows for a wizard to change a spell to be a transmutation, you may still learn and use every spell in existence, even though you have banned 5 schools.

How's that for cheese?
If you're referring to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spellVersatility), it only works for one spell per five class levels. Hardly "every spell in existence."

If not, what ACF are you referring to and where is it?

[Aspenor]

If you're referring to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spellVersatility), it only works for one spell per five class levels. Hardly "every spell in existence."

If not, what ACF are you referring to and where is it?

If it can possibly be a transmutation, then it is in the book. You need not research it that way, instead, others can have researched it that way. Assuming the transmuter variant exists, it is true that all arcane spells can be transmutations. Therefore, since the book holds ALL arcane spells, it has ALL arcane spells as transmutations as well as their normal school.

It will also hold all divine spells as arcane spells, assuming classes like Wyrm Wizard exist.

[Tyndmyr]

To be honest I don't see what is the problem with letting a wizard scribe... say Time Stop with his free level up spells of level 3, he won't be using it till level 17 in any case.

It is cheesy because it abuses RAW in a way that doesn't mesh with RAI, yes.

In terms of absolute power, it's certainly no match for wish loops and the like. It merely means that a high level wizard has saved a little gold. This is a rather minor thing in the grand scale of things. High level wizards already tend to be awesome. Plus, if you actually play through those levels, it's a rather straightforward trade of power now for power later, something that in 3.5 was part of the design goals. It's not that ridiculous from a gameplay standpoint.