(Almost) Core Wizard in a Tight Spot...

[tuesdayscoming]

For the following question let's pretend that the Core 3, and Complete Arcane, Adventurer, Divine, and Warrior are the only books in existence.

So a level 5 wizard, flat-footed, is attacked by a level 5 fighter, who initiates a grapple. The wizard fails his grapple check, so they are now grappling.

The question is this: what does the wizard do? Given the limitations on source material, are there any particular spells well suited to this situation? Or does the wizard just have to play as per usual and pray that he can make his Concentration checks?

[Aricandor]

At such low levels prevention is the best means. Beyond Still spells and Suggestion (Verbal only!) you'd have to have looked at things like Charm, Displacement, Fly, Web, Grease... I seem to recall having seen a spell that gives a nasty jolt to grapplers but I don't remember the source (might actually have been an epic spell to think of it).
If you extend it to Spell Compendium (okay, so not this time, but for the sake of argument; I practically consider it core when I DM) there's probably -something- in that humongous mass of spells that could help you specifically deal with it. Many teleportation type spells in general have only a verbal component.

But if he's actually got his hands on you, then, yeah... Hope you had something Stilled or Suggestion prepared or pray for good rolls is all I can think of.

[mootoall]

Normally I would say he activates his heart of water for freedom of movement, but now I'm not sure. He should be a specialist conjurer for Abrupt Jaunt, but that might not work if you're not. Basically any Freedom of Movement effect you can get.

[tuesdayscoming]

Again, for this example, we assume that the Wizard is caught flat-footed, so he is already in the grapple before he can cast a spell.

Abrupt Jaunt would be wonderful, but alas! it is in PH2, and is therefore not allowed.

[gbprime]

Ordinarily, I'd just say "Balor Nimbus" with Searing Spell (especially if you know you're dueling a non-caster), and laugh evilly. But those books are not available to you.

So... Levitate. Or Suggestion. Given your limited books, I'd pack both.

[Godskook]

Again, for this example, we assume that the Wizard is caught flat-footed, so he is already in the grapple before he can cast a spell.

Abrupt Jaunt would be wonderful, but alas! it is in PH2, and is therefore not allowed.

Heart of Water is cast well before combat in the buff rounds.

[gbprime]

Heart of Water is cast well before combat in the buff rounds.

And also unavailable because he cannot use Complete Mage. :smallfrown:

[Eric Tolle]

Well, normally I'd say the Wizard is SOL, but I've been informed by reliable sources here that this situation absolutely cannot happen, not between a Tier 1 and a Tier 5 character.

So my suggestion is that you cast Time stop, then cast Rope Trick, then use your Contingency- based plane shift to move to a plane where fighters cannot exist. Then you can plane shift to a plane where time moves 100,000 times faster, rest up, memorize the correct spells, then use Greater Planar Binding to summon something to go beat up the DM.

[Pentachoron]

Well, normally I'd say the Wizard is SOL, but I've been informed by reliable sources here that this situation absolutely cannot happen, not between a Tier 1 and a Tier 5 character.

So my suggestion is that you cast Time stop, then cast Rope Trick, then use your Contingency- based plane shift to move to a plane where fighters cannot exist. Then you can plane shift to a plane where time moves 100,000 times faster, rest up, memorize the correct spells, then use Greater Planar Binding to summon something to go beat up the DM.

Except it's for a level 5 Wizard. So he'd only have access to Rope Trick out of any of those yet.

[gbprime]

Except it's for a level 5 Wizard. So he'd only have access to Rope Trick out of any of those yet.

I believe that was sarcasm. I therefore liked it. :smallamused:

[Sims]

I had this problem a while back. They have low Will saves, so try Hideos Laughter. Try to summon a swarm of spiders to bite him up to.

If he can fail just one turn, and you can get alot of distance, you can win. But for now, I'd go wih the Hideous Laughter spell

[Thespianus]

A lot depends on preparation. If you have the Still Spell Metamagic feat, there's a bunch of spells you can succeed on casting, but you need to make a good Concentration check (DC 20+Spell level) to be able to cast it.

If you succeed, I assume there are a lot of spells that could help. Tashas Hideous Laughter, Alter Self, Daze Monster, maybe. I'm not sure how Blur works in a grapple, or Mirror Image.

Earthen Grasp (Comp Arc) to grapple the grappler, Fist of Stone to gain +6 Strength and a slam attack, Swift Fly (Comp Adv) could maybe work. Bladeweave (Comp Adv) if you have a weapon in your hand allows you to make a touch attack to Daze the opponent. Bladeweave has only Verbal components, so you don't need Still Spell for that.

These are level 1 or 2 spells, given that Still Spell is a +1 Metamagic feat.

Without Still Spell, it's really hard. Bladeweave and Swift Fly are the ones I can find while going through the lists quickly here.

[Eldariel]

Wizard let himself get surprised, is flat-footed and get hit. He should be dead, not grappled. Why did the Fighter not kill him? Now the Wizard has a chance at making the Concentration check. If he does, the easiest option is probably Color Spray to stun the Fighter. Or his best bet, at any rate.

[Sims]

{Scrubbed}

[Diarmuid]

@Eldariel: The Fighter knows the rules better than you and knows that there are only a couple of spells without Somatic components that could help in that scenario. =)

The concentration check only applies if the spell can be cast in a grapple, and you can only cast non somatic spells and, and if it has a material component you have to already have it to hand.

[Veyr]

What part of Core do you not understand?
Probably the part where Core aren't the only books allowed:

For the following question let's pretend that the Core 3, and Complete Arcane, Adventurer, Divine, and Warrior are the only books in existence.(emphasis mine)

[Jude_H]

The Wizard slips away because, beneath his hat of disguise, he is actually naked and slathered in baby oil. There are few problems that cannot solve. :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

Cast Blindness/Deafness on the Fighter. It is probably the best you can do. Also, linky (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863658/No_Somatic_Component_Spell_List)to no somatic list.

[Diarmuid]

Again, Grease has Somatic components and so cannot be cast while Grappling.

Even if it didnt have Somatics, you would still have needed to have the pork rind or butter in hand before you began grappling to be able to cast it.

[Terumitsu]

Again, Grease has Somatic components and so cannot be cast while Grappling.

Even if it didnt have Somatics, you would still have needed to have the pork rind or butter in hand before you began grappling to be able to cast it.

Yanked my suggestion as I remembered it required Somatic components..

Though, now that I think of it, Still Spell as well as Eschew Materials might help on that.

[Thespianus]

What part of Core do you not understand?
You're excused.

[Tyndmyr]

This depends on the wizard. I am currently playing a wizard who is playing a paladin. If I built him in core, at level 5, he would have had 22 strength(my level up bonus was used elsewhere), and a +4 bonus from bulls strength. The attack would have provoked, likely causing one hit(he has reach. Of course.) If he survived that, I would then have owned him in the grapple.

One frequent trick I use on wizards is the fact that you only need one hand available to cast. Stick a kusari-gama in the other hand. Look, you now threaten all kinds of things. Sure, you're not traditionally GOOD with it, but AoOs are always a good thing, and it helps with flanking.

Concentration should always be maxed. You should generally strive to have a positive con modifer at all times. The more, the merrier. Ditto for dex.

If you have escape artist, feel free to use those to escape the grapple instead. This is, sadly, less guaranteed.

Note that grease, a good spell you may have prepared anyway, can be cast on you, giving you a lovely +10 bonus on escape artist.


If you want higher levels of cheese, Explosive Runes is a fun spell. It fixes ever so many problems. Note that when it's on an item, say, a card on your head, facing outward, someone reading it will get no save. You will. Mix and match with reflex save optimization and hit points to survive the meltdown if your attacker can read.

[ericgrau]

Even if there was a spell to cast he has a +10 concentration modifier against a DC 20+spell level check. It's a 50:50 shot at best. The best thing to do at level 5 in such a situation is to shout for your party to kill the thing grappling you. Most grappling things deal low damage and are denied their dex bonus to AC. Either the party rogue or fighter can handle the matter splendidly. In the mean time you can try to break free or try to stab the thing at a -4 penalty, though both are mostly futile efforts. Even if you break free the thing gets to deal damage while grabbing again, so you don't even reduce the hurt unless by some miracle it misses. You might want to just stab it.

Typically when I see this happen the grappled guy spends the whole fight trying to get out until his party gets around to killing it.

If it's a common problem you could spend 1/3 of your wealth on slick +1 padded. You could try still spell, eschew materials and combat casting thus blowing all your feats even as a human. But then you'd basically spend a round on that, and then the following round escaping. And then you might get caught again anyway; either you provoke from moving or wait a round to withdraw in which case it attempts a grapple on you anyway. I'd prefer a still damage spell or etc. if I wanted to blow feats on the problem.

EDIT: Ooh bladeweave is a good idea. Though at level 5 a touch attack is actually hard. 2 BAB and possibly a strength penalty vs. 10+ AC. Still it's a 50:50 shot at actually escaping whereas grease & co. are a less than 50:50 shot at maybe helping next round and then maybe getting grappled again anyway.

[Geigan]

Depends on if you have buff rounds. I'll assume not since this wouldn't be a problem with them. eschew materials+still spell = grease your own clothes for +10 to resist grapple while in grapple. Once you get out cast defensively, swift fly(comp. adventurer), GTFO. Then cast normal fly to keep yourself airborne, should be easy from here.

Of course if the fighter is doing a grapple build grease might not even be enough, and the round you take casting that might kill you if he's going for armor spikes to crush you to death. How optimized do you think said fighter is for grappling?

[Thespianus]

As long as the Wizaed holds a dagger or another light weapon on his hand when the grapple was initiated, the Bladeweave(CompAdv) spell seems fantastic: No somatic or material component, and if you succeed on a touch attack with your weapon (which ought to be simple in a grapple), you can Daze your opponent for one round, which is plenty of time to return things to their natural order, ie Wizard on top, Fighter in pink bits strewn over the floor. :smallwink:

I hadn't seen this spell before, so this thread was a good reminder to read through the spell descriptions properly.

[Flickerdart]

Bladeweave, IIRC, is also Swift to cast, meaning you could use it and attack in the same round.

[Sims]

Probably the part where Core aren't the only books allowed:
(emphasis mine)

Awwww sheeeeiiitt!

[Eldariel]

@Eldariel: The Fighter knows the rules better than you and knows that there are only a couple of spells without Somatic components that could help in that scenario. =)

Oh yeah, Color Spray has somatics. Feh, whatever. Obviously every Wizard takes still spell and prepares a stilled Color Spray just for this. Owait.

[Thespianus]

Bladeweave, IIRC, is also Swift to cast, meaning you could use it and attack in the same round.

I just noticed that it's 1 round / level as well.

It's an amazing spell! I need to use this. Alot! :) It should be Persisted! :) Every round you attack with the weapon, you can also make a touch attack to Daze your opponent. This seems too good to be true. Has it been errataed? Or is there something that I'm missing? I don't remember seeing it mentioned in the Gish threads, but that might be my memory playing tricks on me.

[ericgrau]

Ya that does sound nuts. I was thinking of making a high str and/or con and/or defense wizard using melee touch spells. Stunlocking foes BBEGs with nothing but a touch attack would be nuts on a build made for it.


Oh yeah, Color Spray has somatics. Feh, whatever. Obviously every Wizard takes still spell and prepares a stilled Color Spray just for this. Owait.
One of the many obscure advantages to being a sorcerer. Still/silent spell are actually semi-useful feats thanks to spontaneous metamagic. See also Xykon vs. Vaarsuvius.

[Thespianus]

Ya that does sound nuts. I was thinking of making a high str and/or con and/or defense wizard using melee touch spells. Stunlocking foes BBEGs with nothing but a touch attack would be nuts on a build made for it.

yeah, sounds like the ultimate spell to put on a guy with good reach. Granted, it's a level 2 spell, so the save DC won't be so high, but still. Outstanding value from a level 2 slot.

[ericgrau]

Ah there we go, that's why. I thought it was a touch attack with no save. A daze with a save isn't so special. Now it's more like a 1/4-1/3 chance of hitting and a failed save at low levels. Hmmm 10-20% chance if we count the concentration check. Actually a bit underpowered now as a mostly contingency spell that might not even work before the grappler is dead anyway.

[Thespianus]

Ah there we go, that's why. I thought it was a touch attack with no save. A daze with a save isn't so special. Now it's more like a 1/4-1/3 chance of hitting and a failed save at low levels. Actually a bit underpowered now as a mostly contingency spell that might not even work before the grappler is dead anyway.

A level 2 spell will have a DC of about 16 or 17 with a level 5 Wizard, right? And it's a Will save. Fighters have horrible Will save modifiers, around +2 at level 5, so the chance of Dazing the opponent is pretty good still.

But yes, Persisting it at higher levels won't help much. It's a good low level spell, though.

[Geigan]

A level 2 spell will have a DC of about 16 or 17 with a level 5 Wizard, right? And it's a Will save. Fighters have horrible Will save modifiers, around +2 at level 5, so the chance of Dazing the opponent is pretty good still.

But yes, Persisting it at higher levels won't help much. It's a good low level spell, though.

But he still has to attack to get the additional free attack. Which means a standard action that he could have used to get out of grapple or cast a spell is wasted keeping him maybe dazed for a round. The fighter wouldn't be able to do anything but the wizard would have done nothing to advance the situation.

Edit: though actually a good idea if the wizard wants to stay in grapple. Hmmm, maybe still alter self into something nasty+bladeweave to make his life horrible.

[Eldariel]

One of the many obscure advantages to being a sorcerer. Still/silent spell are actually semi-useful feats thanks to spontaneous metamagic. See also Xykon vs. Vaarsuvius.

Yeah, but since Sorcs don't get bonus metamagic feats, it's generally kind of a pain to start picking up Still/Silent Spell "just in case". And there's the pesky full round casting time (which is completely unnecessary IMHO; Sorcs should have superior metamagic...).

[Thespianus]

But he still has to attack to get the additional free attack. Which means a standard action that he could have used to get out of grapple or cast a spell is wasted keeping him maybe dazed for a round. The fighter wouldn't be able to do anything but the wizard would have done nothing to advance the situation.
The Wizard would get the next round to do whatever, since his opponent is Dazed, he can just get up and leave the Grapple.

But, sure, if the 5th level Wizard has _another_ spell he can cast while grappled, he might want to exhaust those options first.

[ericgrau]

Yeah, but since Sorcs don't get bonus metamagic feats, it's generally kind of a pain to start picking up Still/Silent Spell "just in case". And there's the pesky full round casting time (which is completely unnecessary IMHO; Sorcs should have superior metamagic...).
Ya you normally want to get empower and so on first, and then maybe grab the contingencies at higher levels. But at level 5 neither class is going to have still spell unless deathly afraid of grapples, in which case either class might take it since you don't have many good low level choices anyway since the spell level adjustment is hard to fit in.

Bladeweave is still problematic not just from the will save, but from the low level touch attack (50%), concentration check (50%, 75% with feat), on top of the will save (75%). About 20% success overall; you make 5 attempts to finally stun it and oops the fight is already over anyway. The will save just means at high levels you can't stunlock the BBEG b/c you'll waste your turn and he'll have a 50:50 shot of passing purely from his level, assuming will is his low save (unlikely) and you use heighten spell. So... you might as well be dazed b/c you blew your turn attacking and the important foe is maybe dazed.

At level 5 my money is still on "Hey allies, kill the no-dex-bonus-to-AC guy grappling your artillery piece first."

[ffone]

Well, normally I'd say the Wizard is SOL, but I've been informed by reliable sources here that this situation absolutely cannot happen, not between a Tier 1 and a Tier 5 character.

So my suggestion is that you cast Time stop, then cast Rope Trick, then use your Contingency- based plane shift to move to a plane where fighters cannot exist. Then you can plane shift to a plane where time moves 100,000 times faster, rest up, memorize the correct spells, then use Greater Planar Binding to summon something to go beat up the DM.

You win the fight, and one (1) internet.

[Eldariel]

At level 5 my money is still on "Hey allies, kill the no-dex-bonus-to-AC guy grappling your artillery piece first."

Especially the Rogue. SNEAK FULL ATTACK! Bitch! (like Haley would put it)

[Kurald Galain]

What part of Core do you not understand?

The grappling rules.

*drum roll*

[Geigan]

The Wizard would get the next round to do whatever, since his opponent is Dazed, he can just get up and leave the Grapple.

But, sure, if the 5th level Wizard has _another_ spell he can cast while grappled, he might want to exhaust those options first.

Just because he's dazed does not mean the grapple ends. You won't have been able to escape since you used your standard action to attack and daze. He does nothing on his turn but when your turn comes around the daze effect ends leaving you back where you started.
Though assuming the wizard is ready for a grapple and wants to stay grappling it would be a good choice for the stunlock effect.

Also, Tuesdayscoming, is this for that duel you mentioned in the thread about the 0LA race?

[Thespianus]

At level 5 my money is still on "Hey allies, kill the no-dex-bonus-to-AC guy grappling your artillery piece first."
Yeah, if they're available. Bladeweave isn't the ultimate in this sutuation , I agree. Just a very very interesting extra combat option for a gish that I had completely missed before today. :smallsmile:

[Tael]

Stilled Spells and non Somatic Spells. Done.

But really, how did the wizard get into this situation?

[tuesdayscoming]

Thanks for all of the ideas, guys! I may actually be rebuilding from a typical, frail wizard to a guy with 13 int and massive physical stats. Could be fun :smallbiggrin:


Also, Tuesdayscoming, is this for that duel you mentioned in the thread about the 0LA race?

It is indeed, sir!

edit:

But really, how did the wizard get into this situation?

For an actual game, you're right. Shouldn't happen. This is for a 1v1 duel, though, and it seems quite likely to me that, if my opponent wins initiative, this is what will happen

[cfalcon]

Still Color Spray.
Still Hideous Laughter
Still Grease yourself, and Escape Artist out?
Still Fear
Still Ray of Enfeeblement?

If you are pinned, he can muffle you as a free action, so they will all need to be Stilled and Silent.

Generally, your options are poor. However, you are a 5th level wizard grappled by a 5th level fighter, so it's probably ok that he's gonna put you in a tutu and have his way with you.

[Thespianus]

Just because he's dazed does not mean the grapple ends. You won't have been able to escape since you used your standard action to attack and daze.
Ok, that's pretty weird then. If the opponent can't move, you're still locked in the grapple? Does this mean you are still in a grapple even if your opponent is dead as well? Do I have to make an opposed grapple check to get out of a grapple even if the party Rogue killed the Fighter? It doesn't seem right.

I was under the impression that in order to be locked in a grapple, you had to have an opponent who could take actions, but I see now that RAW doesn't mention that the grappler holding you down have to be able to take actions.

Oh well.

[Tael]

For an actual game, you're right. Shouldn't happen. This is for a 1v1 duel, though, and it seems quite likely to me that, if my opponent wins initiative, this is what will happen

Yes.
Assuming you start withing 60 feet of each other.
Assuming there is a straight line for him to charge with.
Assuming that the wizard has no idea he is about to be ambushed.
Assuming that the wizard is just walking.

In other words, if all of these things can be assumed, you are doing something wrong.

[Geigan]

Ok, that's pretty weird then. If the opponent can't move, you're still locked in the grapple? Does this mean you are still in a grapple even if your opponent is dead as well? Do I have to make an opposed grapple check to get out of a grapple even if the party Rogue killed the Fighter? It doesn't seem right.

I was under the impression that in order to be locked in a grapple, you had to have an opponent who could take actions, but I see now that RAW doesn't mention that the grappler holding you down have to be able to take actions.

Oh well.

Yes you'll still technically be grappled, but you can free yourself as a standard action and the opponent has to be able to take actions to oppose the grapple. If you were able to escape from the grapple on your own turn the daze would be helpful.


Yes.
Assuming you start withing 60 feet of each other.
Assuming there is a straight line for him to charge with.
Assuming that the wizard has no idea he is about to be ambushed.
Assuming that the wizard is just walking.

In other words, if all of these things can be assumed, you are doing something wrong.
I'd say some more details on the duel are warranted. Are there buff rounds? Can you do extra things at the beginning of the day when you cast spells? How far apart do you start, and why couldn't you possibly win initiative?

[Thespianus]

Yes you'll still technically be grappled, but you can free yourself as a standard action and the opponent has to be able to take actions to oppose the grapple. If you were able to escape from the grapple on your own turn the daze would be helpful.

I assumed I could attack during my standard action, daze him, then move away as my move action. Assuming things in DnD always end in pain, and - in this case - public humiliation. :smallwink:

[mootoall]

I was also certain that the Abrupt Jaunt variant was in UA, and therefore the SRD. If it's book availability that's your restriction, that could be your solution. However, any immediate action spell becomes your friend if he wins Init. No clue what's available at this level, since I'm AFB, but look for those. Don't screw your bonus spells per day and DCs yet. And your familiar can still deliver a touch spell for you when you're in a grapple, methinks.

[tuesdayscoming]

I was also certain that the Abrupt Jaunt variant was in UA, and therefore the SRD.

Even if it is UA, its still not allowed. UA is not part of the Core 3. Note that we are not using SRD + the listed Completes, but the Core 3 + listed Completes.

[Thespianus]

Even if it is UA, its still not allowed. UA is not part of the Core 3. Note that we are not using SRD + the listed Completes, but the Core 3 + listed Completes.
Abrupt Jaunt is PHBII.

[ericgrau]

For an actual game, you're right. Shouldn't happen. This is for a 1v1 duel, though, and it seems quite likely to me that, if my opponent wins initiative, this is what will happen
Ah, then try still spell + combat casting + whatever offensive spell you like to cast then. I'd still recommend against still grease, as all it does is increase your chances of getting out next round... only to be grappled (which deals unarmed strike damage even upon initiation) and forced to escape all over again. If you think grappling is extremely common then I'd do it with a wizard and prepare most of your spells as stilled. If you think it's merely common then I'd get a sorcerer so that you can apply still (or not apply it) on the fly. Even at an odd level.

Here's a list of core spells from my notes that have no somatic component to help out even more:
Level 0: Flare, Light
Level 1: Feather Fall, Hold Portal, True Strike, Ventriloquism
Level 2: Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Knock
Level 3: Displacement, Tongues, Suggestion
Ooh suggestion is on that list... EDIT: but it has a material component. Simple solution though is to carry it in your left hand at all times.