Character design challenge

[Mystify]

Character design challenge:
Can we make a character that is extremely good at handling large groups of enemies, but very poor at attacking a single target, and very poor at working with a copy of themselves. Ideally, this character would be able to singlehandedly defeat any number of duplicates of himself, practically they may only be able to defeat a small handful, but in some way have an numerical disadvantage against themselves. Defeat will be defined loosely; you don't have to kill them all, but you must get all of them out of the battle, be it by getting them to run away, be incapacitated, trapped, whatever.

This character could be any level, use any feats or classes, any magic items, etc. in order to accomplish this goal. And to make it easier, we can use any system to design it, but tending towards 3.5 would be best.

Abilities that increase in power with more targets would be helpful, as would effects that can't stack with themselves.

[Tenebris]

Persistent Sadism & Masochism spells (BoVD)? Requires an insane healing rate though.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Someone who can fight gangs for local charities? That sort of thing?

I assume you mean individuals and groups of similar ECL, someone that could beat several Fighter 2's but would lose to a single fighter 6 for example?

Ideas:
Lvl 1 Arcane caster
spells known/prepared sleep, color spray

A crusader with reach and combat reflexes.
Make sure to take the bones line from stone dragon.

A cleric vs undead
Turn is awesome for mooks but can't make magnitude check for powerful individuals.

[Devmaar]

You're trying to build a character that follows the Inverse Ninja Law? A Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike build could work, get Double Hit and Snap Kick. Sure there's more of them, but you get three attacks for each one of their's.

[Mystify]

You're trying to build a character that follows the Inverse Ninja Law?
Exactly.



I assume you mean individuals and groups of similar ECL, someone that could beat several Fighter 2's but would lose to a single fighter 6 for example?
No, I mean copies of themselves. being able to defeat hoards of minions while losing to a single strong opponent is trivial.

[Mystify]

You're trying to build a character that follows the Inverse Ninja Law? A Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike build could work, get Double Hit and Snap Kick. Sure there's more of them, but you get three attacks for each one of their's.

we could make him epic. Take the feat that givs you sneak attack on attacks of oppurtunity and unlimited attacks of oppotunity per round. As ar ouge, your uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge means they can't attack you from being hiden to get sneak attack, and they can't flank you to get sneak attack, but the AoOs will still deal it. Roblair's gambit to get the AoOs when they attack you, improved, greater, and two weapon attacks of opportunity get you 4 attacks for each AoO. Canny oppurtunist gives you +4 on all of these.

(As a side note, this build can be extended to get AoOs from people who stand still next to you, people you tumble past you, people who take a 5' step, people who attack someone else, people who cast spells, and pretty much anything else they do or don't do.)

Add vampiric to your weapon so you can heal off all of your attacks, while their heal is wasted on their strike since they are still full. The enchantment that increases sneak attack damage boosts your offense but not theirs.

However, this has the flaw that yoru AoO will in turn provoke AoOs from them, so two characters like this go into an infinite exchange of blows until one of them dies. At lower levels they run out of attacks of oppurtunity first, but at epic there is no limit.

It also assumes that the duplicates attack and you don't. If you attack, you eat the same flurry of sneak attack. They would know not to attack you(even if you assume no knowledge of the duplicates capabilities, they would figure it out after the first guy dies fom poking you). At that point, ranged combat is the only option. If we take the deflect an unlimited number of everything feat tree that will prevent that, but we still need some way to get them to attack you without you having to attack them.

[gbprime]

Designed to fight armies of himself???

Wouldn't it be easier to make sure he couldn't be copied somehow? Or is that just part of the scenario that cannot be changed?

[Mystify]

Designed to fight armies of himself???

Wouldn't it be easier to make sure he couldn't be copied somehow? Or is that just part of the scenario that cannot be changed?

This is more for the theoretical bragging rights than an actual practical situation. Winning agaisnt multiple perfect copies of yourself is a very counterintuitive thing, and I want to see if we can pull it off.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Easy, create a warblade with mithral tornado, adamantine hurricane, time stands still, dancing mongoose, raging mongoose, and a bunch of maneuvers from this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5710173).

[Mystify]

Easy, create a warblade with mithral tornado, adamantine hurricane, time stands still, dancing mongoose, raging mongoose, and a bunch of maneuvers from this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5710173).

While those make you great against groups of enemies, if they all in turn used them against you, you die faster since more of them are hitting you. The total damage output of both sides is the same;you hit all of them, and all of them hit you. They have several tiems as many hit poitns,sso you die first.

[Hiro Protagonest]

While those make you great against groups of enemies, if they all in turn used them against you, you die faster since more of them are hitting you. The total damage output of both sides is the same;you hit all of them, and all of them hit you. They have several tiems as many hit poitns,sso you die first.

So our goal is to create a low HP character with lots of AoEs? I can live with that.

Blaster sorcerer with fireball, lightning bolt, meteor swarm, etc.

[Mystify]

So our goal is to create a low HP character with lots of AoEs? I can live with that.

Blaster sorcerer with fireball, lightning bolt, meteor swarm, etc.
Each one of them has a 50% chance of beating you at iniative. you have a 20% chance of going first, in which case being able to nuke all of them at once makes you win. But in that case, and of them could nuke you in one round if they win.

[myancey]

Each one of them has a 50% chance of beating you at iniative. you have a 20% chance of going first, in which case being able to nuke all of them at once makes you win. But in that case, and of them could nuke you in one round if they win.

So do exactly what the other guy said but break initiative. It's crazy easy to do with magic items. Or does this exact copy have the same items as you do?

And wouldn't it stand to reason that 'fighting the guy in the mirror' would always be a 50/50 chance of losing? If that's the case..aren't you making a sort of paradoxical situation that is purely defined by the die you roll?

[Hiro Protagonest]

So do exactly what the other guy said but break initiative. It's crazy easy to do with magic items. Or does this exact copy have the same items as you do?

They do. It's stupid, it's basically whoever goes first wins.

[Mystify]

Thats part of what makes this tricky. You need a way to be devastatingly effective at groups that makes you worthless against a single target. Hence you can destroy a large group of yourself, but they can't take out one of you.

[The Rabbler]

Thats part of what makes this tricky. You need a way to be devastatingly effective at groups that makes you worthless against a single target. Hence you can destroy a large group of yourself, but they can't take out one of you.

what happens when you kill three people and are left with only one?:smallconfused:

[Mystify]

what happens when you kill three people and are left with only one?:smallconfused:

Either you need to function in such a way that you are buffed from killing the others or weakening them to the point of being defeatable in the process of killing the others

[myancey]

Either you need to function in such a way that you are buffed from killing the others or weakening them to the point of being defeatable in the process of killing the others

You've created an impossible situation. The situation as I understand it is as follows:

Group of baddies made entirely up of exact replicas of yourself (equipment, buffs, etc.)
Your turn: you attack, take out 3 of the 4 (or any other number), assuming at least 1 enemy survives.

This situation means, providing at least 1 person lives at the end of your turn, that this exact replica, though potentially wounded, would have a turn as equally powerful as yours. The end result: you as a charred corpse or of an equivalently wounded level as this baddy.

To sum it up: This entire situation is simply a matter of how well you roll the die. If the baddies are, across the board, akin to you...then likely as not, they will win. It becomes a matter of pure probability with the only variance being lop-sided numbers.

Side note: And as for the inverse ninja law--you can't have a bunch of 'your character' running around because that would defy a principle of the law. This principle being that the 'ninja group' that this solitary character attacks are infinitely weaker than him.

[Mystify]

That is why you need abilities that will amplify based on fighting a group. Not simply damage multiple people, but be better on a per person basis. Maybe some combination of sadism and hitting multiple people that can escalate up in a way that won't happen against a single person.
Its not intrinsically impossible, but you do have to be unconventional.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Large size humanoid race, such as Half-Ogre or Water Orc Half-Minotaur
Fighter 6/ War Hulk 10/ Psychic Warrior 5
Dungeoncrasher ACF
Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes, EWP: Kusari-Gama, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knock-Back, Defensive Sweep, Practiced Manifester*, Illithid Heritage, Inhuman Reach, Improved Combat Reflexes.
Expansion power, for 9 pp it lasts 10 min/level and increases him to gargantuan.
Gloves of the Balanced Hand, Armbands of Might, two +1 Speed Kusari-Gamas.
*He actually cannot qualify for Practiced Manifester due to War Hulk, but I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to boost his ML for Expansion, or just make him gestalt or increase his level.

Six attacks/round. Every attack he makes strikes every opponent within reach. Every hit knocks that opponent back. Sweep everyone into a corner with Knockback, Dungeoncrash them against the wall. Anyone who tries to escape provokes an AoO, which strikes everyone within reach and Dungeoncrashes them again. For every opponent that doesn't move during their turn you make another AoO, Dungeoncrashing everyone again (everyone would be piled up into a few squares, the first few could maybe step out of the pile but anyone else who tried to move would provoke anyway).

Add in Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Knock-Down if you want it to get extremely silly. Not exactly powerful against a single opponent, but unbelievably brutal when used against a large number of opponents. When gargantuan size he has a 25 ft. natural reach, so he can hit 50 ft. out from the edge of his 20 ft. space.

[Mystify]

Large size humanoid race, such as Half-Ogre or Water Orc Half-Minotaur
Fighter 6/ War Hulk 10/ Psychic Warrior 5
Dungeoncrasher ACF
Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes, EWP: Kusari-Gama, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knock-Back, Defensive Sweep, Practiced Manifester*, Illithid Heritage, Inhuman Reach, Improved Combat Reflexes.
Expansion power, for 9 pp it lasts 10 min/level and increases him to gargantuan.
Gloves of the Balanced Hand, Armbands of Might, two +1 Speed Kusari-Gamas.
*He actually cannot qualify for Practiced Manifester due to War Hulk, but I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to boost his ML for Expansion, or just make him gestalt or increase his level.

Six attacks/round. Every attack he makes strikes every opponent within reach. Every hit knocks that opponent back. Sweep everyone into a corner with Knockback, Dungeoncrash them against the wall. Anyone who tries to escape provokes an AoO, which strikes everyone within reach and Dungeoncrashes them again. For every opponent that doesn't move during their turn you make another AoO, Dungeoncrashing everyone again (everyone would be piled up into a few squares, the first few could maybe step out of the pile but anyone else who tried to move would provoke anyway).

Add in Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Knock-Down if you want it to get extremely silly. Not exactly powerful against a single opponent, but unbelievably brutal when used against a large number of opponents. When gargantuan size he has a 25 ft. natural reach, so he can hit 50 ft. out from the edge of his 20 ft. space.

But can he take the return treatment?

[Salanmander]

That is why you need abilities that will amplify based on fighting a group. Not simply damage multiple people, but be better on a per person basis. Maybe some combination of sadism and hitting multiple people that can escalate up in a way that won't happen against a single person.
Its not intrinsically impossible, but you do have to be unconventional.

This. Although you may need a way to avoid leaving a single opponent alive at the end of your round. If you can avoid that, what you need is an ability that makes you hit an enemy harder if they have allies, or weaker if you do. Something like this:

Stupid Homebrewed For This Situation Nuke Spell (partial stat block)
Target: 1 creature/level, all within 30 ft. of each other
Save: Will negates, ref half (see text)
Every target of this spell emits a blast of energy. A will save negates this effect. The blast deals 10d6 damage to every creature within 30 ft. of the target (ref half), but does not affect the target itself.


In other words, that spell can /only/ nuke a group of people, and will do so with stupid amounts of damage. With just one target, it won't do anything.


The question is whether anything that has an effect that goes in that direction exists in D&D.

[Rei_Jin]

I can see a way for this to work, but it's tricky.

I'm thinking of the ocassion in Dr McNinja where he fought the hordes of Ninjas successfully, then couldn't beat one on their own.

A Psychic Warrior with Hostile Empathic Transfer can empower it with additional power points to harm enemies within 20ft of him. So, the more they beat on him, the more he hurts them, and the more effectively he does. Then, when he's burnt through all his PP fighting the hordes, one more comes out with all their PP intact, and he's out... so he can't use that trick to kill himself.

By simple logic, a character fighting himself when both of the combatants are at full strength, cannot "suck" against one opponent, because it's him. He can't suck versus himself, nor can he rule versus himself... it'd be a stalemate, based on dice rolls to see who wins.

[Mystify]

By simple logic, a character fighting himself when both of the combatants are at full strength, cannot "suck" against one opponent, because it's him. He can't suck versus himself, nor can he rule versus himself... it'd be a stalemate, based on dice rolls to see who wins.
Against himself, yes. But there is a difference in numbers you have to figure out how to invert.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

But can he take the return treatment?

Put Wrathful Healing on both his weapons, and yes, as long as there are dozens of copies of him only attacking him he will win. If it's a free-for-all it's anyone's game, but if it's just him hitting everyone else then with the number of AoOs he gets he should be able to easily outheal what damage he takes.