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Waldham
2011-05-12, 06:54 AM
Hello, there are the spell :

FOOL'S GOLD
Illusion [Glamer]
Level: Bard 2, merchant prince 3, sorcerer/wizard 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Touch
Target: Metal objects of up to 10 cu. in. in volume/level
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: No

This spell makes metal objects, such as a bronze statue or a handful of copper coins, appear to be made of gold. You can affect 10 cubic inches of metal -- the equivalent of about 150 coins or 3 pounds -- per level. If you want to affect multiple objects, such as a chest full of coins, you only need to touch one of the objects, providing that all of the other objects to be affected are in contact with one another.

Material Component: A powdered gem of at least 5 gp in value sprinkled over the object(s).

I would like to know if it is possible to forgery the gold coins with copper coins. If yes, how ?

With which skills ?

Craft (smith) ? how many times to create and what is the cost ?

Thanks for your future answer.

Dryad
2011-05-12, 07:39 AM
You could make an alloy... About 90% copper, 5% alluminium and 5% tin should do it, if you keep it well polished.
However, the problem with gold forgeries is that gold is very soft, whereas most golden-sheen alloys are quite hard. The soft quality of gold is what makes it easily distinguishable by touch, and merchants can generally feel the value of coins (a very rough estimate of purity) by touch, scratching or biting the coin.

The bard spell is a glamour; an illusion effect, which turns recognition skills aside and goes straight for strength of will. Basically: It makes forgery possible and acceptable.
Making a material forgery, however, is much more difficult.

What you cán do, of course, is add more impurities to the metal. However, to keep this believable, you can't make that much money with this method, and it takes a lot of time. Casting, smelting, mixing, sculpting, testing, reworking the calculations.. And in the end, you may be able to turn 100 gp into 105.

Not really worth it.

If you do, however, want to do stuff like this, I'd suggest Craft: Metalurgy/Metalworking. Blacksmithing really is too limited to iron-based alloys and the craft of smithing, while in coin-forgeries, you will not have to do any smithing at all.

Lord Vukodlak
2011-05-12, 11:20 AM
The second problem is weight, precious metals were valued as currency because there difficult to forge.

To forge a gold coin, you'd need to get the weight and size right not just the appearance. Even if you made the copper coin look like it was made of gold. The weight wouldn't be right. Gold is heavier then copper. Additionally, In D&D a coin weighs 1/50th of a pound. This means gold, silver, copper, and platnimum coins are all of equal weight but difference sizes.

The more you spend at one time the more likely they are to catch it as the gap between size and weight grows.

Using an illusion spell and skiping town is more practical and easier.

ericgrau
2011-05-12, 02:24 PM
Plus most oldy-time merchants use a scale to count money, so for any purchase over a few gp it would be pretty obvious unless the spell also changes coin weight. So either the spell does a lot more than what's listed or it's fairly useless.

I imagine detect magic would be common on large purchases to detect fake money. For that you might also want a nystul's magic aura to conceal the spell.

Debihuman
2011-05-12, 03:47 PM
I'd say that you could not do this with Forgery skill because forgery has to do with written documents (see Forgery skill). On the other hand, a successful Craft Metallurgy check would let you goldplate a copper coin. Anyone with a successful Appraisal check could figure out the ruse.

Debby

Lord Vukodlak
2011-05-12, 04:29 PM
I'd say that you could not do this with Forgery skill because forgery has to do with written documents (see Forgery skill). On the other hand, a successful Craft Metallurgy check would let you goldplate a copper coin. Anyone with a successful Appraisal check could figure out the ruse.


Anyone with a scale could figure out the ruse. Gold is over twice as dense as copper. If you plated a copper coin in gold. Anyone whose handled gold on a semi-regular basis could tell right away that it doesn't feel right. It be to light and to big to be solid gold.

Remember in D&D coins are very simplified they all weigh 1/50lb which means copper, silver, gold and platimum coins are all of very different sizes.

Density of Copper 8.92 g/cm3
Density of Silver 10.49 g/cm3
Density of Gold 19.32 g/cm3
Density of Platinium 21.45 g/cm3

A copper coin would be signifcanly larger then a gold coin. If you plated it in gold the coin would appear to be worth more then one standard gp. But its weight would be all wrong.

Forging precious metals relies on the stupidity and ignorance of the target not any actual skill of the forger. When people do forge coins its rare collectible coins.

Debihuman
2011-05-12, 05:36 PM
I see we've killed another catgirl here :-).

It's a matter of verisimilitude. We're not sticklers for how well D&D imitates the real world when my gaming group gets together. So for fantasy and coolness, I'd allow a Craft Metallurgy check vs. an Appraisal check. Now, the value would depend on whom the PC is trying to swindle. As you said, someone who works with coins and gold would probably figure it out a lot easier than someone else. Of course, this also begs the question why the PCs would do such a thing? This isn't particularly "heroic."

Debby

ericgrau
2011-05-12, 05:42 PM
Hmm, well as written I'd say the spell is good for making small purchases with merchants who might not bother testing the coins. Maybe if you bought a single level 1 scroll at a major magic item shop. But even then if you tried that on low level mundane goods and services the poor merchant would probably test the coin.

If the PCs or NPCs went through a lot of trouble I'd totally let forgery fly... until discovered later and local law enforcement starts investigating. Pulling a fast one on unsuspecting PCs would be fun too, but with great attention to how it's done so the PCs have a chance to notice it if they try or likewise if they've been screwed over once before and want to start checking everything. In either case a spell like this would usually not be enough.

Debihuman
2011-05-12, 06:08 PM
Most merchants (at least ones that are successful) should be able to feel the difference between copper and gold unless they fumbled their Appraisal check. I'd set it low at DC 5 as this would be easy for the merchant.

Creating a coin that looked like gold and felt like gold but wasn't gold would be Craft Metallurgy DC 20, a challenge to be sure.

If the Appraisal succeeds by more than the Craft check, the ruse is discovered making the odds very difficult for the swindler.

More likely, I'd use false gold coins as a calling card for a more interesting villain. The idea is interesting but I wouldn't want to bog down the game unless the players were into it.

Debby

cfalcon
2011-05-12, 06:24 PM
I believe Fool's Gold (the spell) was from before the standard was by weight in 3.0?

It still should be detectable by a scale, but I think you could also whack it with cold iron or some strangeness.