Scaling up a monster.

[Harbinger_]

For the campaign I'm running the players involved have been noticing alot of phoenix motif on the armor of the guards of a local kingdom and they've just realized that the god-empress so to speak is a phoenix. The thing is I took a look at the entry on phoenix in the monster manual and phoenix aren't really as powerful as I'd like them to be. How exactly would I scale up this phoenix if I wanted her to be... say the equivalent of a great red dragon?

[Canarr]

Well... you *could* just use the hit dice, ability scores etc. of the Great Red and slap the name "God-Phoenix" on it. Do some fine-tuning on attacks and spell-like abilities, done.

Or, just use the standard MM-rules for advancing monsters, and keep piling on hit dice until you like what you've got. Give it the half-celestial template for good measure (and to underline the divinity).

[only1doug]

Give it Class levels in an adventuring class.

Perhaps Sorcerer or maybe Unarmed Swordsage.

[Undercroft]

I enjoy throwing on templates rather than toying with HD (though it does kinda need it in this case).
Creature of Legend (MM2) goes nicely on it i think, but can't remember offhand. Isn't technically legal but thats what DM Fiat is for.

Also maybe add on sorcerer levels? Main deal with dragons is they get to cast as sorcerers while keeping the whole "giant flying fire-breathing lizard" deal.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Note that it has too many feats, and some other stuff is a bit off, so the 3.5 Update Booklet (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) implements the following changes:

Phoenix : Magical Beast; 10 ft./5 ft.; 15/magic cold iron;
Concentration +25, Diplomacy +28, Knowledge (arcana) +27,
Knowledge (history) +27, Spellcraft +29, Spot +26; Empower Spell,
Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Flyby Attack, Heighten Spell, Improved
Critical (claw), Improved InitiativeB, Iron WillB, Maximize Spell; LA —;
Spell-Like Abilities: replace negative energy protection with death
ward. Defensive Aura: Change to supernatural rather than spell-like.
Improved uncanny dodge.
Improved Initiative and Iron Will are now racial bonus feats. I'd drop all the rest of the feats and just repick it all. Keep Empower Spell, get Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike (claws) from the Draconomicon, probably get Improved Flight (RotW) so its maneuverability is Good, and hold off on its three remaining feats.

It should be bigger, but there's no advancement listed. You could give it a Half-Fiend Variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a), which it could have gained gradually (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) via magic rather than having been born with it. If it's based on a huge size fiend it will grant a size increase, so now you have a huge phoenix. It will have additional spell-like abilities, SR, its DR will need to be overcome by a combination of magic, cold iron, and probably also good, so unless a weapon includes all of those it won't deal full damage. It will also get eight base skill points per level and you can pretty much add any skills a fiend would have as class skills, namely bluff/diplomacy/sense motive, spot/listen/search, all knowledge skills, and anything else you think would be appropriate.

For those last three feats, give it Snatch from the Monster Manual, and Improved Snatch and Multisnatch in the Draconomicon. That way it can snatch a medium or smaller target, and it can conduct the grapple at a -10 without being considered grappled itself. Since it cannot bite during its full attack, it can move in and bite to snatch an opponent, then on the following round full attack with eight claw attacks on adjacent opponents. If it wants to divide its enemies the battle can take place on a cliff overlooking the sea, it can snatch three opponents and fly out over the water and cast them in, then return to continue fighting those who remain.

If this god-empress is evil, give it the Corrupted Creature template from BoVD. It now deals Vile damage equal to half its HD on every attack, its natural weapon damage is increased one size, gets +8 natural armor from being huge size, add +4 DC to all of its special attacks, and it gets Fast Healing 10. That's +10 Vile damage per attack, which opponents won't be able to Fast Heal, Regenerate, or even fix during combat. That makes a CR 30 huge corrupted phoenix. Maybe also add the Corrupt Spell metamagic feat, which it can add to its spell-like abilities by casting them as a full round action, so half the damage they deal will be vile damage. It would still probably want to use Empower Spell with Fire Seeds, but a Corrupt Wall of Fire should be a discouraging barrier to even high level characters.

Assuming you use the standard half-fiend ability scores, considering corrupted creature and the size increase, your phoenix should have the following ability scores:
Str 34, Dex 16, Con 25, Int 22, Wis 15, Cha 21, and an extra +16 natural armor above what it would normally have.
Its claw attacks would be +30/+25/+20/+15 twice, 3d6+12, +10 corrupt.

[Diarmuid]

Are the players intended to ever actually fight this thing? If not, does it really need stats?

[Runestar]

Tome of battle has desert wind, you could give a base monster lvs in swordsage and pick fire-themed attacks. For example, I might use an elder fire elemental as a base and tack on 5 lvs in swordsage (cr16). This gives it IL17, enough to select a 9th lv maneuver (that AoE fireblast which deals 100 fire damage). Then reskin it to look like a phoenix and give it alternate form or something.

Alternatively, it also has the jade phoenix prc.

What cr range are you looking at? Also, type of foe, tactics etc?

[Keld Denar]

Phoenix is a magical beast, so advancing it by HD is a +3 HD/+1 CR ratio. Adding an extra 18 HD only increases CR by 6, but boosts the DCs of all of it's abilities by 9, not to mention the 4 stat bumps and 6 feats it gains. 2 size boosts would also increase it's CR by 2, accompanied by relevant size boosts to stats like Str and Con.

You could pretty easily make a VERY scary CR 22-25 Phoenix simply by advancing it. Immunity to Fire kinda sucks for it, but its a God-Phoenix, give it an [Epic] feat which is basically Searing Spell on all of it's SU/SP abilities. Fire so hot it burns fire elementals and whatnots.

[Angry Bob]

The ELH Paragon template?

[Runestar]

The phoenix is already cr24 (and way too weak for its cr, if you ask me), advancing further makes it cr30, which may be out of range for the party.

Alternatively, sorc20 using shapechange? :smalltongue:

[Harbinger_]

Are the players intended to ever actually fight this thing? If not, does it really need stats?



Absolutely, they'll have to fight it but that won't be for quite a few levels. I don't know what the players I'm campaigning with would do so they may interact with the god-empress in a way that I'd need some of the stats at the least.