is this worth LA?

[big teej]

greetings playgrounders,

I was reading the Dire Boar monster entry the other day, and have become fascinated by its ability to keep going until it's rage ends (much like the frenzied berserker)


but I'm curious...

if, hypothetically, I were to homebrew a race that had a Rage ability similar to the Boar. would that be worth LA?

I figured this goes here since I haven't homebrewed it yet. and it's a balance question.

for a broader question on the same topic.

where would you peg the following racial traits as, LA wise?
+ 4 str, + 4 con, - 4 intelligence, - 2 wisdom, - 4 charisma, Powerful Build, Ferocity

if this would be greater than +1, what would you eliminate to make it +1?
my first suggestion would be to eliminate powerful build, but that doesn't soundlike enough to make a difference....

[arkol]

Are you aware of the Goliath race? They have much less that what you have there and are still considered a good LA+1 race. They don't have those penalties to the mental stats however.

[big teej]

Are you aware of the Goliath race? They have much less that what you have there and are still considered a good LA+1 race. They don't have those penalties to the mental stats however.

I am, but I have something in mind closer to the Warhammer Ork

which is known for fighting far past when any reasonable creature would have keeled over dead.
and for wielding oversized choppas.

[arkol]

Ork (as in 40k) or Orc (as in WHFB)?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ferocity (Ex)
A dire boar is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even while disabled or dying.
It ignores the Disabled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#disabled) and Dying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dying) conditions, but it still dies at -10 as normal. Also keep in mind: "When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless." Just a single point of nonlethal damage will make a dire boar fall unconscious despite its ferocity. Technically if it has 0 nonlethal damage and negative hit points, it would also meet the conditions for falling unconscious due to nonlethal damage.

A Frenzied Berserker takes nonlethal damage every round during a frenzy. Despite his deathless frenzy, this nonlethal damage will cause him to fall unconscious, so the class' signature ability doesn't even work. You could rule that Diehard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#diehard) works similarly with nonlethal damage (Staggered instead of Unconscious), but that would make a Troll with Diehard impossible to defeat without a consistent strong acid or fire attack.

[TroubleBrewing]

Man, a Troll Frenzied Berserker would be damn near non-functional.

He'd be all "RRRAAARRGGHH I'm unkillable!"

And the party would be like "Weeeeellll now you're unconscious. Bet you wish you'd spent those class levels on Runescarred Berserker now, huh?"

[Anxe]

Seems like a +0 to me.

[big teej]

Ork (as in 40k) or Orc (as in WHFB)?

Ork, 40k


It ignores the Disabled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#disabled) and Dying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dying) conditions, but it still dies at -10 as normal. Also keep in mind: "When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless." Just a single point of nonlethal damage will make a dire boar fall unconscious despite its ferocity. Technically if it has 0 nonlethal damage and negative hit points, it would also meet the conditions for falling unconscious due to nonlethal damage.

A Frenzied Berserker takes nonlethal damage every round during a frenzy. Despite his deathless frenzy, this nonlethal damage will cause him to fall unconscious, so the class' signature ability doesn't even work. You could rule that Diehard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#diehard) works similarly with nonlethal damage (Staggered instead of Unconscious), but that would make a Troll with Diehard impossible to defeat without a consistent strong acid or fire attack.

yea, I went back and reread Ferocity, but still, the whole "ignore disabled and dying" thing is worth it to me.... I just like the mental image.

as for nonlethal damage, at the risk of starting a rules argument.... (and at the risk of soundin very stupid on low sleep)

I don't think I know too many DMs who would make it work that way...

I mean, it just strikes me as a ginormic contradiction. "grrrr I'm unkillable"
"grrrr I can be disabled by being smacked with a weapon that does non-lethal damage rarr"

just doesn't jive to me.


also,
one vote for LA+0
thoughts?

[arkol]

LA+1 AT least. A very good LA+1 for melee. Even a good LA+2 compared to most LA+2 out there. But since most of them suck and no one takes'em anyway... yeah LA+1 if the DM understands that melee sucks in the long run.

[ericgrau]

I was bored and plugged the race into a computer program I wrote a while back and it is quite firmly LA 2 with all abilities listed. i.e., it has equal ability in fights against average monster stats compared to a core build 2 levels higher. Remove anything and it's a little weak for LA 2. A nice thing I noticed about this race unlike other LA races is thanks to ferocity HP and powerful build damage, which are more helpful early than later, it holds up well at low levels in spite of being behind on precious low level HP. Note: the computer program doesn't consider intelligence nor charisma, but then again neither do most martial builds.

I don't like the idea of automatically reducing the LA of a new race for whatever reason. That varies from group to group. If it's a high powered group and they reduce LA across the board, including existing races, then fine. But the baseline for this is LA 2.

[Starbuck_II]

greetings playgrounders,

I was reading the Dire Boar monster entry the other day, and have become fascinated by its ability to keep going until it's rage ends (much like the frenzied berserker)

Have you read Magic of Incarnum?
Rage Claws or Bloodtalons both give this improved diehard ability. Rage Claws increase amount when die as well (from -10 toward - as many essentia you put in)

[Telonius]

My vote is for high-ish +1 LA. While this looks an awful lot like a focused brute, it will still have good lockdown options. You're essentially giving it a +6 to Trip attempts. The only things keeping it from being LA+2 are the penalties to intelligence and wisdom. This guy is not likely to get much more than 1 skill point per level. That will severely limit his options. (You can either Balance, Swim, or not get ambushed. Pick one). Wisdom penalties will hurt its Will save, which will (probably) be abysmal given the class options it will have.

The charisma penalty means that the race will contain no bards or sorcerers.

The one big area of concern I have, is for Cleric and Druid. -2 Wisdom is a hit to the power level, but it's not totally insurmountable. If you pump Wisdom as your main stat, you're CoDzilla without even having to cast a spell. -4Charisma more or less rules out DMM, unless severe shenanigans are involved, but it's still a powerful melee option that can also potentially cast lots of spells. I'd give some serious thought to it, even if it did lose a caster level to LA.

[Prime32]

as for nonlethal damage, at the risk of starting a rules argument.... (and at the risk of soundin very stupid on low sleep)

I don't think I know too many DMs who would make it work that way...

I mean, it just strikes me as a ginormic contradiction. "grrrr I'm unkillable"
"grrrr I can be disabled by being smacked with a weapon that does non-lethal damage rarr"

just doesn't jive to me."You can't kill him, but you can knock him out." seems perfectly reasonable to me. :smallconfused: Heck, I'd be hard-pressed to name a completely immortal character who can't be knocked out. Stop stabbing him since he ignores it, start hitting him in the head.


And that template is not LA +0. The classes which benefit most from Powerful Build and Ferocity don't care about the ability scores being penalised, so the penalties might as well not exist.

[big teej]

"You can't kill him, but you can knock him out." seems perfectly reasonable to me. :smallconfused: Heck, I'd be hard-pressed to name a completely immortal character who can't be knocked out. Stop stabbing him since he ignores it, start hitting him in the head.


And that template is not LA +0. The classes which benefit most from Powerful Build and Ferocity don't care about the ability scores being penalised, so the penalties might as well not exist.


that is an entirly valid perspective.

the non lethal thing not working though still just doesn't jive for me though :smalltongue:

but I digress.

I'd plop the race-in-the-making at LA+2 if for no other reason than my group is going to insist it's at least that.
I only mentioned LA+0 because I saw someone suggest it.

also, for people suggesting things like incarnum, yes that works.

except I'm talking about making this a RACIAL feature, not a class feature.
specifically, a homebrewed version of a warhammer 40k Ork.