why would you ever want this template as a player?

[big teej]

Half Dragon

+ 3 LA

and assuming a standard race that doesn't have RHD
this gives you a whopping ECL 4..... with 1 hit die..

why would any player ever take this?


note: I am well aware of the uses on the DM side of the screen. I want to know why a PLAYER would ever take it.

because I'm just not seeing it.

[Undercroft]

Maybe taking one of the LA buyoff variants so you at least have dragon (or is it dragonblood?) type so you can access some funky dragon only feats.

Other than that, no. It's rubbish for a player. maybe if the breath weapon scaled with your HD/Level and could be used more than 1/day. Then you could go for metabreath cheese (though there are much better ways to do this)

[TroubleBrewing]

You wouldn't. That's sort of a known quantity in the PO field.

Namely, "Don't take crappy* templates."




*That would be nearly any template over LA +3, most templates of +3, some of +2, a few +1, and no +0 LA template.

[only1doug]

In the past I've seen people posting for advice for campaigns where the GM insists on a certain amount of LA in the character build.... I'd consider it under those conditions.

[Undercroft]

The only possible +4LA template i'd try at lower to mid-level play is werewolf (+2RHD +2LA), but thats mostly because the DR and 2RHD helps you at least take some hits. And even then it's mostly for flavour reasons (cos lycanthropes are awesome)

[Killer Angel]

Half Dragon

+ 3 LA

why would any player ever take this?


For the fluff and the bonuses to some stat, without considering any other or the real consequences.
One of my friends (almost a dragon maniac) took it, to play a paladin half silver dragon.
It was painful to have that character in the group, and when it finally died, it's was a relief... :smalltongue:

[TroubleBrewing]

The only possible +4LA template i'd try at lower to mid-level play is werewolf (+2RHD +2LA), but thats mostly because the DR and 2RHD helps you at least take some hits. And even then it's mostly for flavour reasons (cos lycanthropes are awesome)

Phynxkin are better in every way. 1 fewer HD (making them LA +3), exact same stat boosts and size, and instead of the Trip ability they get Pounce. :smalltongue:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Based on my observations of people playing half dragons:

Because playing a half dragon makes their penis hard.

[Yora]

why would any player ever take this?

Because I want to play a half-dragon!!!
No matter the costs.

[XianTheCoder]

When it was first released I played in a level 7 game where I tried playing the template. Wasn't pretty. I've never purposely killed a character until or since, but honestly.... I was willing to take the 1 level hit to get rid of it (in my group we tend to bring in new characters 1 level lower than the party average). The details are a little fuzzy, but I remember it involved me running in unbuffed against a big baddy and attacking until I dropped.... then quietly waving away the clerics assurances that he'd get to me in time.

[Etrivar]

Based on my observations of people playing half dragons:

Because playing a half dragon makes their penis hard.

I think HoV here has the right of it. People play half-dragons in order to feel like a bad-ass. So they play it exclusively for flavor reasons.

[big teej]

I think HoV here has the right of it. People play half-dragons in order to feel like a bad-ass. So they play it exclusively for flavor reasons.

which I applaud,

it just makes me sad that they're almost certainly doomed to failure for being 3 HD behind the party...

I mean, ECL 4 getting killed in single combat by a goblin?
icky..

[Divide by Zero]

We had a half-dragon character in the party once (in a low-level game, no less). He died quickly and didn't do anything relevant before that.

[Gnaeus]

I had a half-dragon, half-ogre chain tripper that I used in a high-optimization tourney a few years back. He was solid enough to win first place. Half dragon provided flight, huge bonus on opposed str check, fire immunity, and I took (I think) entangling breath and the feat that lets half dragons breathe more than once per day. I particularly enjoyed letting my buddy with the staff of fire target fireballs on me while I flew around and artillery spotted enemies hiding behind buildings.

Admittedly, the tourney rules were most unkind to casters, and we were at ecl 11, so it isn't like I had to struggle through the low levels where he would have been pathetic.

I also had a half-dragon, centaur build, which I think would have been impressive from a glass-cannon perspective, but I never got a chance to play it.

[cfalcon]

I never once understood why you don't get wings as a half-dragon, half-human, but you DO get wings as a half-dragon, half-ogre.

Template should be changed before being run in most games, or allowed to players. As it stands it is poor.

[Tvtyrant]

Well it does provide lots of stat boosts, which can be useful for a tripper type who stops getting abilities after level 7 anyway.

[Geigan]

I never once understood why you don't get wings as a half-dragon, half-human, but you DO get wings as a half-dragon, half-ogre.

Template should be changed before being run in most games, or allowed to players. As it stands it is poor.

Well of course it uses standard dragon logic. The bigger you are the faster you fly.:smallbiggrin:

[Godskook]

The only possible +4LA template i'd try at lower to mid-level play is werewolf (+2RHD +2LA), but thats mostly because the DR and 2RHD helps you at least take some hits. And even then it's mostly for flavour reasons (cos lycanthropes are awesome)

Werewolf is a +2 LA template, not a +4 LA. +2 RHD != +2 LA, and that can be pretty important for a lot of reasons, like actually getting your lvl 3 feat when you start in a lvl 5 game, or for buying of LA(can't buyoff RHD).

[big teej]

optimization challenge:

build a level 1 (ECL4) Half Dragon that can survive long enough (in actual play) to completely buy off it's LA

[Essence_of_War]

why would any player ever take this?

1) You start at high enough level to buy some or all of it off.

2) You're playing gestalt and your gestalt rules shunt LA to only one side.

[Lord Vampyre]

Yeah, I had the painful honor of running in a half-dragon campaign. It would have been better had the DM just given us the template without the +3 LA. I did get away with quite a bit of cheese though, with the DM's house rules.

Since I was playing a half-Shadow Dragon, I convinced him that my breath weapon did 2d4 points of level drain. It made my character one of the deadliest on the battle field. He also allowed our breath weapons the ability to recharge like normal dragons.

[Abbalah]

Half-Dragons get played because people either aren't aware of or don't have access to the Dragonspawn template+errata out of the Dragonlance books.

Gives all the same goodies and then some at a lower LA.

My personal favorite is the White Dragonspawn, by far the most efficient.

{Scrubbed}

Or if the vulnerability to fire damage is too much of a problem you can take the green or black variety at LA+2, and pick up immunity to acid instead of cold immunity, as well as +2 CHA and a 4d6 breath weapon - choice of 30 foot cone or 60 foot line.

[nedz]

I might consider playing one if I was playing on a low OP game, or I wanted a serious OP challange. I'd want some way of being large though: even a single level of Sorc would do that. It would be kind of funny: I cast Enlarge Person, and now I can fly. :smallbiggrin: Fly as a level 1 spell in effect.

[Runestar]

It is actually not that bad at mid-higher lvs. You should have enough hp from your HD so you won't be one-shotted, so you don't mind giving up some HD for other special abilities. The +8str more than offsets the -3bab as well. Breath weapon sucks, so you may want to choose a fang-dragon (no breath weapon) or brown dragon (don't get wings, which doesn't apply to you anyways).

It really shines at epic lvs, where the attack bonus more than offsets the crummy epic bab progression fighters have to swallow. Imagine, a lv23 fighter has bab+22. A half-dragon fighter20 has bab+20 and an extra +4 to-hit from str. And every even-numbered ECL, this disparity increases to +3. :smallbiggrin:

[tyckspoon]

When to use Half-Dragon:

You're Large already, because this gets you wings.
Whatever made you Large didn't also give you claw/bite attacks.
You're starting at a high enough level to have some HD even after LA, and enough WBL to buy your way through some of the disadvantages.
You don't mind being a Big Dumb Fighter-analogue.

Within those conditions, half-dragon compares fairly well to 3 levels of any of the core melee classes. Especially once you've gotten past the diptastic first 2-4 levels; Half-dragon Paladin 5 is better off than Paladin 8 unless you really need skills, Half-dragon Fighter 5 beats Fighter 8 because you didn't have skills anyway and you already have your basic feats..

Now, the sad thing is you can't *be* Large in core without also expending way too many ECLs on racial HD and more LA. And out of core, you still can only really do it efficiently with templates that are broadly considered quite cheesy.. and if you're not Large, you don't get wings, which is the factor that makes that +3 LA at all equitable. Which brings us back to 'Half-dragon is never worth taking' outside of situations where the LA impact is reduced or mitigated.

[Veyr]

you don't mind giving up some HD for other special abilities
You'd have a very hard time finding three class levels that gave you less than the abilities of Half-Dragon, methinks. Especially at higher levels.


The +8str more than offsets the -3bab as well.
Not until you have BAB +16, it isn't. Iteratives are much more important than the actual attack bonus.

[Mystify]

I found one use of it. There may be a better way to do this, but it was very effective:

Half-black dragon war troll.

Due to the racial hit dice and LA you can't play it till epic, but its really strong, hits hard, and most importantly, is impossible to kill via hp damage.

War trolls have regeneration, and can only be harmed for lethal damage by acid.
Half-black dragon grants acid immunity.
Ergo, there is no form of damage that is lethal to you. Pretty good regen rate(11 if memory serves), DR 5/adamantine and between the strength bonuses and racial levels, your accuracy is fine, you just lack the last iterative attack. if you roll an 18, you have 46 str with no magic, + 21 racial con mod, which is 126 health by itself. +18 NA means you can have excellent AC, even at this level, +6 to dex further helps the AC, 40ft land speed, you are large so you get the wings. They also get a con-based dazing blow for every hit, so the half-dragon boosts that a bit. half dragon negates the int penalty, have a +5 wis to help with your low will save. The half-dragon also elevates your 12 racial hit dice to d12 from d8s, gives you good saves for all of those hd, and immunity to sleep and paralysis.

+5 str from a tome, +6 from a belt, and you have 58 str, so +36 damage from strength alone, and you can add barbarian on top to get even more str.

The huge con starts you out with 206 on average, without magic items. Granted its not as much as a con focused character, but it is backed by DR and regen, and an impressive AC, as you level it scales up FAST. This character held there own in a part of optimized(read:exploitative) casters well into epic levels. You are also well-advised to take protective items so they can't just zap you with a insta-death effect, since you will stand up after the battle from anything else.

half-dragon took a CR 12 monster and made it into a powerhouse at epic levels.

[Coidzor]

Draconic creature, so much better than half dragon.

[KillianHawkeye]

I might consider playing one if I was playing on a low OP game, or I wanted a serious OP challange. I'd want some way of being large though: even a single level of Sorc would do that. It would be kind of funny: I cast Enlarge Person, and now I can fly. :smallbiggrin: Fly as a level 1 spell in effect.

Templates do not work that way! :smallannoyed:



Seriously, you either have wings or you don't. Getting bigger won't cause you to suddenly sprout wings.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Draconic creature, so much better than half dragon.

Or dragonborn. Dragonborn are awesome for LA +0. You get either wings, a breath weapon, or darkvision and low-light vision.

[Veyr]

Templates do not work that way! :smallannoyed:



Seriously, you either have wings or you don't. Getting bigger won't cause you to suddenly sprout wings.
While medium, his wings are too small to support his weight.

The Enlarge Person spell grows them enough to support even his new weight.

Why not?

[TroubleBrewing]

The Enlarge Person spell grows them enough to support even his new weight.

Why not?

This is why:



A half-dragon that is Large or larger has wings and can fly at twice its base land speed (maximum 120 ft.) with average maneuverability. A half-dragon that is Medium or smaller does not have wings.

Emphasis mine.

[Veyr]

Eh, minor refluffing. Or, you have "winglets" that grow into real wings. They're not wings, just little stubs that grow into real wings when you gain the requisite size.

Frankly, the image of, say, a Half-Dragon Goliath Barbarian going into a Mountain Rage and suddenly sprouting enormous dragon wings is awesome.


...I need to find a DM who'll have 2-4 LA so I can do that.

[TroubleBrewing]

Eh, minor refluffing. Or, you have "winglets" that grow into real wings. They're not wings, just little stubs that grow into real wings when you gain the requisite size.

Yeah, but fluff=/=RAW. Sadly.



Frankly, the image of, say, a Half-Dragon Goliath Barbarian going into a Mountain Rage and suddenly sprouting enormous dragon wings is awesome.


Rule of cool overrides RAW, at least in my book. That is a pretty sweet image. :smallamused:

[Mystify]

it allows a level 4 character to get the effect of a 3rd level spell. Its slightly early, but not that unbalanced. It would definitely be a house rule though

[subject42]

Actually, how would the wings and other template-granted abilities work with the kinda-polymorph-but-not-really-polymorph-even-if-it-looks-like-polymorph qualities of the Bear Warrior?

Would you start raging and turn into a fire-breathing winged bear?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Actually, how would the wings and other template-granted abilities work with the kinda-polymorph-but-not-really-polymorph-even-if-it-looks-like-polymorph qualities of the Bear Warrior?

Would you start raging and turn into a fire-breathing winged bear?

Rule of cool trumps even DM fiat. :smallbiggrin:

[Mystify]

My house rule for druids is that if they have a template that is applicable for their wildshaped form then they turn into a templated version of the creature. It seems balanced to me, you turn into a creature x levels weaker than a normal druid and add a +x cr template to it, then the power level should be about right. By that ruling, yes, you could turn into a half-dragon bear with wings.

[ubergeek63]

I never once understood why you don't get wings as a half-dragon, half-human, but you DO get wings as a half-dragon, half-ogre.

Template should be changed before being run in most games, or allowed to players. As it stands it is poor.

because you do not know the rules - RotD feats:

Dragon Wings * Dragonblood subtype, 1st level only * +10 bonus on Jump checks; glide speed 30 ft.

Improved Dragon Wings * Dragonblood subtype, Dragon Wings, 6 HD * Gain fly speed

Reinforced Wings * Str 13, wings and a glide or fly speed * Fly with medium armor or a medium load

Heavyweight Wings * Str 15, Reinforced Wings, wings and a glide or fly speed * Fly with heavy armor or a heavy load

even a half dragon half gnome can fly!

[Hiro Protagonest]

because you do not know the rules - RotD feats:

Dragon Wings * Dragonblood subtype, 1st level only * +10 bonus on Jump checks; glide speed 30 ft.

Improved Dragon Wings * Dragonblood subtype, Dragon Wings, 6 HD * Gain fly speed

Reinforced Wings * Str 13, wings and a glide or fly speed * Fly with medium armor or a medium load

Heavyweight Wings * Str 15, Reinforced Wings, wings and a glide or fly speed * Fly with heavy armor or a heavy load

even a half dragon half gnome can fly!

That's 4 feats right there.

Though I now want to make an ancient blue dragon wearing full plate, using that Heavyweight Wings feat. He's gonna be my main antagonist in this game I'm currently running, and I think it would be awesome to describe him.

[subject42]

Though I now want to make an ancient blue dragon wearing full plate, using that Heavyweight Wings feat. He's gonna be my main antagonist in this game I'm currently running, and I think it would be awesome to describe him.

Just be careful that the players don't realize the market value of colossal armor. Otherwise they'll figure out how to kill it as soon as possible.

[Runestar]

You'd have a very hard time finding three class levels that gave you less than the abilities of Half-Dragon, methinks. Especially at higher levels.

Many melee classes don't really grant additional class features past the lower lvs, or at least, those abilities don't really scale well. Look at fighter for instance, barring a few higher tier feats like weapon supremacy, there isn't really a lot of reason to continue going straight fighter for the few extra feats.

I suppose if you have some hyper-optimised build, then yeah, templates kinda pale in comparison. But for more mundane builds, the template looks pretty okay.

Though personally, I feel it is more of a LA+2.5. So it would either need that little extra to really make it worth +3LA, or take away a little something to make it a solid LA+2 template.


Not until you have BAB +16, it isn't. Iteratives are much more important than the actual attack bonus.

You are not very likely to hit with your iteratives, especially your last attack made at -15bab. Conversely, the +8str gives +4 damage (or +6 damage with a 2-handed weapon, or +8 because you can afford to PA for an extra point) on all your current attacks (which are the ones more likely to connect), so I don't feel it is as bad a deal as you are making it out to be. :smallsmile:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just be careful that the players don't realize the market value of colossal armor. Otherwise they'll figure out how to kill it as soon as possible.

Ah, but first they've gotta figure out how to carry it. :smallamused:

[Veyr]

Many melee classes don't really grant additional class features past the lower lvs, or at least, those abilities don't really scale well. Look at fighter for instance, barring a few higher tier feats like weapon supremacy, there isn't really a lot of reason to continue going straight fighter for the few extra feats.
Sure, but those same classes are very open to multiclassing for exactly that reason.

Still, I suppose it's a fair point. I just about never play those classes, so....


You are not very likely to hit with your iteratives, especially your last attack made at -15bab. Conversely, the +8str gives +4 damage (or +6 damage with a 2-handed weapon, or +8 because you can afford to PA for an extra point) on all your current attacks (which are the ones more likely to connect), so I don't feel it is as bad a deal as you are making it out to be. :smallsmile:
To be perfectly honest, my play experience with classes that spend any appreciable time making full attacks is extremely limited, because I find it hideously boring. You may very well be right that your last iterative isn't so important; it certainly seems to be widely emphasized, though. Especially at high levels, when AC is not keeping up with attack bonuses.

[subject42]

Ah, but first they've gotta figure out how to carry it. :smallamused:

Scrolls of shrink item are devastating.

I learned this the hard way with an adamantine-hulled warship that I included for flavor reasons.

They hauled that danged boat around for 9 levels before they could unload it onto a buyer.

[Mystify]

I've always felt that fighter and barbarian are very useful with templates. A high str helps for damage quite a bit, the reduction of BaB hurts a bit, but they can make up for it. They don't suffer very much for lost levels since they have few abilities that scale by level. My first step with making most martial characters is deciding if there are any templates I want. You don't want a lot of LA, but a bit can help. You also have room for both a template and a prestige class a lot of the time.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Scrolls of shrink item are devastating.

I learned this the hard way with an adamantine-hulled warship that I included for flavor reasons.

They hauled that danged boat around for 9 levels before they could unload it onto a buyer.

Except these guys are pretty new. The words "high-op game" and "class tiers" mean nothing to them, and they don't know the spell list backwards and forwards. The rogue//fighter is contributing as much as the psion//soulknife and ranger//bard. Of course, it is only level 2 currently.

[Doc Roc]

because you do not know the rules - RotD feats:

Dragon Wings * Dragonblood subtype, 1st level only * +10 bonus on Jump checks; glide speed 30 ft.

Improved Dragon Wings * Dragonblood subtype, Dragon Wings, 6 HD * Gain fly speed

Reinforced Wings * Str 13, wings and a glide or fly speed * Fly with medium armor or a medium load

Heavyweight Wings * Str 15, Reinforced Wings, wings and a glide or fly speed * Fly with heavy armor or a heavy load

even a half dragon half gnome can fly!

This is what might politely be called intensely sub-optimal when it comes to spending your feats.

[Geigan]

Scrolls of shrink item are devastating.

I learned this the hard way with an adamantine-hulled warship that I included for flavor reasons.

They hauled that danged boat around for 9 levels before they could unload it onto a buyer.

I suppose they tore it apart to fit it into the 2ft. per CL size limit? Or was it a small ship?

[Hiro Protagonest]

This is what might politely be called intensely sub-optimal when it comes to spending your feats.

Yeah, four of your precious feats on an already suboptimal template.

[subject42]

I suppose they tore it apart to fit it into the 2ft. per CL size limit? Or was it a small ship?

Between my disinclination to determine the volume of the hull (rather than its displacement) and my dumbfounded amazement that somebody had a scroll of shrink item, I let them have it.

(It was a gnome ship, though, so I'd peg it at about the size of a PT boat)

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, four of your precious feats on an already suboptimal template.

Indeed. 4 feats, if human, is still 6HD, and Step 2 of the chain requires 6HD anyways, so Flaws won't help.

[Escheton]

Because you want to play a gish and not powergame and instead go for a halfdragon paragon/sorcerer for ****s and giggles?

[Geigan]

Between my disinclination to determine the volume of the hull (rather than its displacement) and my dumbfounded amazement that somebody had a scroll of shrink item, I let them have it.

(It was a gnome ship, though, so I'd peg it at about the size of a PT boat)

Huh. I can never picture gnomes on any ship but an airship. Seeing them on a sailing ship shouldn't feel weird but it does. Odd.

[Doc Roc]

Because you want to play a gish and not powergame and instead go for a halfdragon paragon/sorcerer for ****s and giggles?

I was unaware that simply taking two PrCs to completion was powergaming.

[RaginChangeling]

Because you want to play a gish and not powergame and instead go for a halfdragon paragon/sorcerer for ****s and giggles?

You would be level 20 with a single HD, or Epic if you had any other LA. First level spells.

There is a difference between 'suboptimal' and 'unplayable'.

[subject42]

Huh. I can never picture gnomes on any ship but an airship. Seeing them on a sailing ship shouldn't feel weird but it does. Odd.

Do to a series of misunderstandings, most small humanoids in my campaign setting live on shrimp boats and speak with Cajun accents.

[true_shinken]

why would any player ever take this?

Hm, because they want to be a half-dragon?

On a more serious note, you could take this as a fullcaster so as not to dominate so much in a low tier game.


I was unaware that simply taking two PrCs to completion was powergaming.
Actually, he said it was not powergaming.

[Leon]

Why, because you can.
It may be just what you want for your character idea to work.

I have had one in a game i ran briefly - Half Gold Dragon paladin wasn't too bad of a PC, shame the sorcerer in the party was a idiot and got the whole party killed.

Personally i prefer Draconic template for my dragon flavored PCs as its a small neater package that gives some nice boosts for less bother

[ubergeek63]

That's 4 feats right there.

Though I now want to make an ancient blue dragon wearing full plate, using that Heavyweight Wings feat. He's gonna be my main antagonist in this game I'm currently running, and I think it would be awesome to describe him.

well i did not say it was easy, just legitimate!

[McSmack]

At low levels yeah it's pretty bad, but at higher levels it tends to pan out especially if you can buy off the LA.

I played a half-blue dragon paladin/ranger/tempest that went well into the epic levels. Eventually I became Bahamut.

The DM let me buy off some of my LA, and I used the Item Familiar feat to get a little extra XP.

So yeah mainly it's for fluff reasons, which despite what some people think, is just as valid a reason to take something as optimization is.

[true_shinken]

So yeah mainly it's for fluff reasons, which despite what some people think, is just as valid a reason to take something as optimization is.
Amen, brother.

[Taelas]

You take it because your type changes to dragon.

According to Races of the Dragon, dragons automatically qualify for any racial substitution levels that require the dragonblood subtype. This means that they can take the 9th racial substitution level of the Dragonblood Cleric at level 1. They automatically qualify. So, taking that to the logical conclusion...

Human Half-Dragon Dragonblood Cleric 1 (taking the 9th racial substitution level)/Sorcerer 1 (taking the 7th racial substitution level)/Dragonblood Paladin 1 (taking the 5th racial substitution level). BAB +17/+12/+7+/2, +12 Fort, +6 Ref, +12 Will, Arcane Insight +6, energy sustenance, fearless special mount, smite evil 2/day.

At ECL 6. This is entirely RAW, if completely and utterly cheesy.

[Mystify]

You take it because your type changes to dragon.

According to Races of the Dragon, dragons automatically qualify for any racial substitution levels that require the dragonblood subtype. This means that they can take the 9th racial substitution level of the Dragonblood Cleric at level 1. They automatically qualify. So, taking that to the logical conclusion...

Human Half-Dragon Dragonblood Cleric 1 (taking the 9th racial substitution level)/Sorcerer 1 (taking the 7th racial substitution level)/Dragonblood Paladin 1 (taking the 5th racial substitution level). BAB +17/+12/+7+/2, +12 Fort, +6 Ref, +12 Will, Arcane Insight +6, energy sustenance, fearless special mount, smite evil 2/day.

At ECL 6. This is entirely RAW, if completely and utterly cheesy.

That just says they meet the racial requirments. 9th level racial substitution level must be taken in exchange for level 9 cleric. You can qualify for a racial substitution level and still not be able to take it until you have the appropriate class level to use for it. "qualify" does not mean "ignores all conditions". It means you qualify as a dragonblooded creature. Interpreting otherwise is ignoring what english means

in the description of the racial suybsitution levels, it says "To qualify to take a racial substitution level, you must be of the proper race." Hence, if qualifying for it meant that you could take it at any level, any species could take their substitution levels at any time. It then follows up with "You can usually select a particular substitution level only at a specific class level", which means that even when you qualify, you still have to use the specific class level.

So, RAW, qualifiying for the sutitution level does not let you take it whenever you feel like.

[Veyr]

So yeah mainly it's for fluff reasons, which despite what some people think, is just as valid a reason to take something as optimization is.
Numerous alternatives provide exactly the same fluff for far less cost and more benefit.

Moreover, I think it was clear that the OP was looking at the template from a purely mechanical perspective. Which, despite what some people think, is just as valid a reason to take something as roleplaying is.

[Mystify]

half dragon is core, the other dragon-bsed fluff are not. Meaning that it is the original option, and people may not have access to others.

And it is a perfectly functional template once you get enough HD under your belt. The rules acknowledge that if you have more LA than HD you will have problems.

[Taelas]

That just says they meet the racial requirments. 9th level racial substitution level must be taken in exchange for level 9 cleric. You can qualify for a racial substitution level and still not be able to take it until you have the appropriate class level to use for it. "qualify" does not mean "ignores all conditions". It means you qualify as a dragonblooded creature. Interpreting otherwise is ignoring what english means

in the description of the racial suybsitution levels, it says "To qualify to take a racial substitution level, you must be of the proper race." Hence, if qualifying for it meant that you could take it at any level, any species could take their substitution levels at any time. It then follows up with "You can usually select a particular substitution level only at a specific class level", which means that even when you qualify, you still have to use the specific class level.

So, RAW, qualifiying for the sutitution level does not let you take it whenever you feel like.

That is not correct.

It is said in the requirements under "Dragonblood Cleric" that you must be of the correct type and about to take the levels indicated.

You automatically qualify, thus do not have to have the dragonblood subtype, and you do not have to be about to take those levels. It is RAW, but completely and utterly ridiculous.

[Mystify]

What in the world are you talking about? Look at the rules ofr racial substitution levels in general. It clearly states this. Qualifying is having the right race.

In addition, a racial substituion level works by replacing the class featuers.
"A substitution level is a level of a given class that you take instead of the level described for the standard class."

"The class features of the substitution level simply
replace those of the standard class’s level."

"character who takes a racial substitution level gains spellcasting ability (increases in spells per day, caster level, and spells known, if applicable) as if he had taken a level in the standard class."

"When you take a substitution level for your class at a given level, you give up the standard class features gained at that level and get the substitution level features instead."

"The description of each substitution level class feature
explains what occurs with regard to a standard class ability
not gained, if that ability would normally increase at a specific
rate (such as a dragonborn paladin’s base attack bonus)."


You have to sacrifice the given class ability, which you don't have at level 1, and you get the other features listed. It does not say you gain the BaB and saves of that level, they are on the chart so you can see the differences at the level. The charts have no authoritative weight, they are summaries. RAW, only the text has any official ruling unless the text specifically states that something works "as the chart". Nowhere in the text does it day you gain that BaB. It says you advance in that class, and trade class features. RAW, if you manage to take a subsitution level at the wrong level, which, RAW, is expressely forbidden, you gain no benefit. Stuff like BaB increases at a fixed rate, it doesn't grant a specific value, it increments it.

So, by RAW, you can't do that, and racial subsitituions level's wouldn't work like that even if you could.

[true_shinken]

What in the world are you talking about? Look at the rules ofr racial substitution levels in general. It clearly states this. Qualifying is having the right race.
Yeah, the table is there just to waste space. :smallsigh:
Please take a look at this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=592166).

[Mystify]

I take exception to people saying "my interpretation of the rules that makes 0 sense is RAW." When the rules do not even hint at that interpreation. I can appreciate clever use of RAW to tweak the system, even if its something I would never let fly in a real campaign. For instance, regneration converting damage to nonlethal, and having immunity to nonlethal to negate all damage you can regenerate. That is what the RAW says, but it is clearly not the intent. converting the damage to nonlethal is just suppsoed to be a way to keep track of what they can and cannot regenerate. However, saying that this abilitiy allows me to bypass all explicitely stated requirements and get all of these abilities is not clever use of RAW, its "look, I can interprete this in a nonsensical way if I ignore all this other stuff that is here!"

[McSmack]

Numerous alternatives provide exactly the same fluff for far less cost and more benefit.

Moreover, I think it was clear that the OP was looking at the template from a purely mechanical perspective. Which, despite what some people think, is just as valid a reason to take something as roleplaying is.

Mechanically I agree it's not worth the LA, especially at low levels, with certain caveats it can be worth it at higher levels, though I think Draconic creature template is a better choice overall if you're looking for fluff. Of course not everyone has Races of the Dragon, but most games have access to the Monster Manual. For a long time there half-dragon was about the only option for that kind of fluff.

I can see WHY people would take it, but I believe mechanically better options are available.

I like the PF version better, honestly, they get flight and the same or better ability adjustments for a +2 CR. Seems even better than Draconic Creature.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/halfDragon.html#half-dragon

[Mystify]

woah, the pathfinder variant is mean. you can +2 to hit, +4/6 damage per hit, significant natural armour, flight... why wouldn't I take this?

[Taelas]

Apparently I was not clear, so allow me to clarify: I do not think interpreting the rules in this manner is in any way valid. It is, however, the rules as written. Suggesting this was meant as a joke, not a serious proposal.


What in the world are you talking about? Look at the rules ofr racial substitution levels in general. It clearly states this. Qualifying is having the right race.
The right race and the appropriate level in the correct class.

The requirements are listed in each Dragonblood class. Specifics trump general.


In addition, a racial substituion level works by replacing the class featuers.
"A substitution level is a level of a given class that you take instead of the level described for the standard class."

"The class features of the substitution level simply
replace those of the standard class’s level."
Yes... and it gives a table for for what you gain, specifically, at those levels.


"character who takes a racial substitution level gains spellcasting ability (increases in spells per day, caster level, and spells known, if applicable) as if he had taken a level in the standard class."

"When you take a substitution level for your class at a given level, you give up the standard class features gained at that level and get the substitution level features instead."

"The description of each substitution level class feature
explains what occurs with regard to a standard class ability
not gained, if that ability would normally increase at a specific
rate (such as a dragonborn paladin’s base attack bonus)."
Doesn't matter.



You have to sacrifice the given class ability, which you don't have at level 1, and you get the other features listed. It does not say you gain the BaB and saves of that level, they are on the chart so you can see the differences at the level. The charts have no authoritative weight, they are summaries. RAW, only the text has any official ruling unless the text specifically states that something works "as the chart". Nowhere in the text does it day you gain that BaB. It says you advance in that class, and trade class features. RAW, if you manage to take a subsitution level at the wrong level, which, RAW, is expressely forbidden, you gain no benefit. Stuff like BaB increases at a fixed rate, it doesn't grant a specific value, it increments it.
The fact that the bonuses from the racial substitution levels replace class features at specific levels simply mean they replace those features. If you can somehow get them before you get those features, you will not gain them when you reach the appropriate level. This is how alternate class features work.

As soon as you can qualify for an alternate class feature, you gain the benefit of it, regardless of whether the thing it replaces comes ten levels after in the class. Penetrating Strike for rogues, for example, replaces the entire Trap Sense line.


So, by RAW, you can't do that, and racial subsitituions level's wouldn't work like that even if you could.
By RAW, it works. Sorry.

[Mystify]

I'm not arguing on the assumption that you think it should be used in a campaign, I'm arguing that is not RAW becaue thats not what the rules say. It says you qualify for them, not that you ignore the prerequisites. If qualifying for them made it so that you ignored the prerequistes, any race could ignore the prerequisites for them, since you qualify by being the right race.

[Taelas]

You do not ignore them. You automatically fulfill them. The difference in terminology is staggering.

[Mystify]

Could you quote me the exact line and page number then?

[Taelas]

Races of the Dragon, page 4, 'The Dragonkind Races' sidebar, the third paragraph under the Dragonblood Subtype header.

[Mystify]

"Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype."

Again, qualifying does not mean you ignore pre-reqs. A dragonblood creature qualifies for draonblood substitution levels. A human does not qualify.

[Taelas]

It does not state they only fulfill the Dragonblood subtype requirement. They automatically qualify. Meaning they can take those prestige classes at level 1.

[Mystify]

so what is the difference between "automatically qualify" and "qualify"? automatically qualify just means you qualify automatically. It is no stronger a statement than qualify is. Its stronger than "can qualify", but thats not what it says elsewhere. It says qualifies.


And even if you did take the levels, I still maintain they do not do what you say they do. The charts are not authoritative, and often contradict the text. The charts are aids, to easily see what is happening and summarize the text.

[Taelas]

Yes, you could argue the case without 'automatically', but automatically is a rather strong word. You qualify without further necessary input because you do so automatically.

The tables do not contradict the text, as the text simply states that the benefits are gained in exchange for certain class features.

Regardless, I think we have taken this aside quite far afield from the original topic, especially since it has become an exercise in reading the RAW. Let's just leave it at this.

[acelegna]

I think a lot of players forget over time, that sometimes we just want to create characters just because.......they seem fun/cool/appealing/etc..

If i wanted a character who was a 18th lv Ogre bard who spent all his skillls in Profession (chicken breeder) with TWF saps.....then thats ok for the player; becasue he's playing simething he wants to and not necessary an effective character.

The people who are screwed in the end, are the OTHER players, but again: the objective is to have fun with your character.

[Mystify]

What I greatly enjoy doing is taking a character concept, perhaps a silly one, and while still completly staying true to that concept, make it effective anyways. I have a tendency to accidentally break characters, so it helps me fit with the power level of a group if I am doing something really silly. Like being a blind monk. Mechanically, it is a huge drawback. There is no mechanical reason to play a blind monk. But it still made an effective character.

"All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age."
I beleive this line disqualifies dragnwrought kobolds.

[Abbalah]

"All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age."
I beleive this line disqualifies dragnwrought kobolds.

Not necessarily; technically dragonwrought kobolds gain increases to wis, cha, and int as they age, with no commensurate drawbacks.

[subject42]

If i wanted a character who was a 18th lv Ogre bard who spent all his skillls in Profession (chicken breeder) with TWF saps.....then thats ok for the player; becasue he's playing simething he wants to and not necessary an effective character.

You know, if the enemy doesn't have DR, those all those +1s on the bite attacks could add up...

[ericgrau]

It's actually fairly powerful in core. Outside of core nothing is worth the LA and that's another issue. Ya it's a bit weak at first, but it's a bit strong later. Around ECL 15 a half-dragon barbarian will be stronger than a human barbarian. In core anyway. You could fix the low level problem if you let the player take the LA gradually instead of all at once. This link divides it into 3 parts: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a . Another method would be to make it LA 2 (with full benefits) until 5-6 HD, then it becomes LA 3 at the next level up.

[Tvtyrant]

Actually it has synergy with PAO to get you a permanent Dragon form. So Juvenile Black Dragon is one the menu.

[Mystify]

A 20th level barbarian gets +8 to str when raging. This half dragon has that constantly. You may be somewhat squishy at low levels(though you probably have better AC), but you hit hard. Esp. when you do things to increase your str damage, like exotic weapon master with uncanny blow. And you can combine this with barbarian to get their strength bonus. You just have to contend with a few less HD, which fade in importance as you level, while the str bonus remains useful.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Regarding the fact that you have to be large to fully benefit from this template.

There are two reasons:

A: it's meant to be for monsters.

B: WotC has no sense of power balance.

Also, a goliath does get wings, as he counts as large whenever favorable, and getting wings is definitely favorable.

[Veyr]

A 20th level barbarian gets +8 to str when raging. This half dragon has that constantly.
The "constantly" part is kind of a misnomer; a 20th level Barbarian will never not be in a Rage when it's necessary. They get more than enough uses of it, it lasts a rather long time at that level, and there are no real drawbacks for them to be in it most of the time.

[Mystify]

The "constantly" part is kind of a misnomer; a 20th level Barbarian will never not be in a Rage when it's necessary. They get more than enough uses of it, it lasts a rather long time at that level, and there are no real drawbacks for them to be in it most of the time.

I wasn't implying that the barbarian wouldn't be getting the bonus when he needs it, my point was the half dragon already has the bonus, at level 4, when barbarians can't rage whenever they feel like it. Need to force some doors open? You have the str bonus to help. Need to fight 6 encounters today? you strength is there on all of them.

[The Glyphstone]

Also, a goliath does get wings, as he counts as large whenever favorable, and getting wings is definitely favorable.

Sadly not so. Powerful Build is very specific on what it works for. From the SRD:


Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Goliath's Powerful Build wording from RoS is identical in all respects.



I wasn't implying that the barbarian wouldn't be getting the bonus when he needs it, my point was the half dragon already has the bonus, at level 4, when barbarians can't rage whenever they feel like it. Need to force some doors open? You have the str bonus to help. Need to fight 6 encounters today? you strength is there on all of them.
But your Hp isn't. An ECL4 Half-dragon will be working on a single hit die, and have a tiny fraction of the level 4 Barbarian's HP. He'll be risking death in every one of those 6 encounters, potentially from every attack in each of those encounters depending on the opponent.

[Mystify]

Yes, at level 4 they are quite weak. The system acknowledges that more LA than HD is very weak, and advises against it.

[Talya]

Didn't Dragonborn "Template" or "race" (It exhibits qualities of both) rather make the half dragon also useless for fluff reasons, since now you can have your cake and eat it too?

[McSmack]

Didn't Dragonborn "Template" or "race" (It exhibits qualities of both) rather make the half dragon also useless for fluff reasons, since now you can have your cake and eat it too?

I wouldn't say it made it totally useless. Dragonborn characters are supposedly so devoted to their dragon patron or whatnot that they go through a ritual to turn into a Dragonborn. Half-dragons are just the result of pervert dragons. (seriously what kind of dragon gets it on with a half-ogre?!) There's no specific fluff in the description to limit a half-dragon.

So basically if you're looking for a character who looks like a dragon-human hybrid and is devoted to a dragon, Dragonborn is for you. If you have a different backstory Half-dragon is more fitting.
Not that you really have to use the Dragonborn fluff.

The important thing to take away from this thread is that the PF half-dragon template is AWESOME! So awesome in fact that I'm going to remake my half-blue dragon pally for the next PF game I'm in.:smallsmile: