Two weapon fighting: Why the bad rep? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Mystify

2011-05-12, 10:57 AM

I frequently hear people smashing on how two weapon fighting is so weak. I don't understand why. Yes, by itself it doesn't give you alot, but it combos extremely well with other things. Specifically, anytime you have a fixed extra damage per hit, it can drastically increase your power.

TWF ranger is very poor in general, but if they are dishing out their favored enemy damage on every strike it is very powerful. Highly situational though, and extremely poor in all other cases.

Fighters can work wonderfully with this. They have enough feats to take the tree without problem, and then you stack on the weapon focus tree, and you get +6 damage on every hit. Going into dervish can earn you +5/+5 on each hit, which adds up. stacking the two can net you +9 damage per hit(since you can't qualify for greater weapon spec with all 10 levels of dervish). Dervish also makes it easy to get the full rounds.

Rouges with two weapons are devestating engines of destruction. Using another method of gaining sneak attack(flanking, invis, etc) and things die.

It doesn't reduce your damage from strength, just splits it up among your seperate attacks. Power attack is less effective, but also less desireable. With that many attacks you want as much accuracy as possible. If you assume that a -5 makes it likely that 1 less attack will hit(since all of your attacks are effectively 1 iterative attack later), you get +10 damage for a two hadned weapon and 1 less attack hits. Since you probably have 2 or 3 attacks that hit in a normal full round that is an extra 20-30 damage. dopping more accuracy(baring tricks to eliminate the penalty) gives you more damage on less attacks, making it less useful. A high level rouge will top that damage increae with 1 extra attack. A well-built fighter doesn't have a problem with it either.

As for needing full rounds to be effective, its not hard to get them. Let the enemy come to you with their single attack, and retaliate with a full round of doom. Or take a level of spririt lion totem barbarian from compelte champion and get pounce, so you can charge them with the full round. Or dervish to be able to move and full round.

People also complain that is is more expensive. That is the wrong way to think about it. Its not that its more expensive to increase your damage output by an amount, its that you can spend even more on your offense than a single weapon fighter.

This is not just theoretical knowledge, I have seen several two weapon fighters in real campaigns of various levels, and they are very effective. So enlighten me, why does two weapon fighting get such a bad rep?

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-12, 11:04 AM

TWF is very feat intensive, and you get maybe one less point of damage from a two-handed weapon. Power attack is one of the best feats out there, and you can't use it well. You also get less damage in a standard action attack or charge than if you wielded a two-handed weapon, and it's far cheaper to enchant one weapon than two, which may not matter at 20th level, but it matters a lot before that, when you don't have the money to buy two +5 keen speed flaming weapons and +5 heavy fortification glamered armor and still have money left over.

Spirit lion totem barbarian helps with the charge thing, but your still getting the same damage out of a two-handed weapon, on average. Y might even be getting more damage from a two-handed weapon, as TWF is getting an extra point of damage over two-handers for a -2 to attack.

Ozymandias

2011-05-12, 11:06 AM

People also complain that is is more expensive. That is the wrong way to think about it. Its not that its more expensive to increase your damage output by an amount, its that you can spend even more on your offense than a single weapon fighter.

A lot of it is opportunity cost. Rogues have to spend many precious feats on it, which they may or may not be able to afford. Fighters have to meet the Dex requirement, which means less Con or whatever. Rangers aren't for it but favored enemy damage doesn't always come up.

Also, there's always more to spend on offense, TWF or THF. Things like Belts of Battle enhance your combat abilities more than slapping another flaming attribute on one of your shortswords. You can add more damage enhancements on two weapons with TWF, but chargers don't need much damage beyond what they can do with a mundane greatsword, so they can spend that gp on more interesting and versatile things.

This is not just theoretical knowledge, I have seen several two weapon fighters in real campaigns of various levels, and they are very effective. So enlighten me, why does two weapon fighting get such a bad rep?

No one is saying that it's useless, just that it's typically less efficient than other methods of playing.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-12, 11:08 AM

The thing is, two weapon fighting isn't bad, it's just really expensive, taking more from your feats and your money then a two-handed weapon.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-05-12, 11:15 AM

It's not bad by itself, but relative to 2h Power Attack it's an extremely poor choice.

TWF spends one feat and gets one extra attack, so you probably get 1d8+Str and 1d6+1/2Str, whereas 2h gets something like 2d6+1.5Str. The difference is 1d8 vs 1d6, so average TWF gets one point of damage more than 2h, at the cost of a feat and a -2 to hit.

If the 2h character spends an equal number of feats to get Power Attack, and an equal attack penalty, he adds +4 damage, so now for equal cost the 2h character deals +3 damage more than the TWF character.

If you add 1d6 Sneak Attack the TWF character gets 7 points more on average, so he's up +3 damage from the 2h character, but getting that sneak attack damage isn't as reliable as using power attack.

At +6 BAB, the TWF character spends another feat on ITWF, the Power Attack character gets Leap Attack. Optimally, the TWF character will have something like 4d6 sneak attack, and the 2h character will have either Pounce (via Barbarian) or Rhino's Rush (via the Wrath domain or Ranger or Paladin), or perhaps even both. TWF makes four attacks, 2h makes two (or one at double damage), so as above the base weapon damage and Str bonus puts TWF up +2 damage due to 1d8+1d6 vs 2d6. TWF gets 56 average damage from sneak attack, and his BAB is down by two points plus the -2 for TWF. 2h is at full BAB and he's charging, so for equal attack bonuses that's -6 for power attack. Whether making two attacks via pounce or dealing double damage via rhino's rush, that's +48 damage, or with some cheap armbands of might it's +56 damage, equal to what TWF gets but far more reliable.

In the higher levels, TWF has Craven and GTWF, 2h has Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper. 2h wins out no matter how you want to spin it, he's power attacking for his full BAB but taking no penalty to hit, with Leap Attack, plus Rhino's Rush and/or a Valorous weapon and/or Pounce, and probably killing his target in a single hit. TWF probably has to Travel Devotion or Anklets of Translocation into a flanking position and full attack, and a great deal of opponents will be outright immune to sneak attack anyway, plus half of his attacks probably won't even hit due to the lower attack bonus. If 2h gets a critical hit everything gets multiplied, if TWF gets a critical hit those sneak attack dice don't help at all.

true_shinken

2011-05-12, 11:16 AM

TWF gets a bad rep because using two handed weapons does more damage.

druid91

2011-05-12, 11:22 AM

Which is why multiweapon fighting should be used instead.

Go Thri-kreen.:smallbiggrin:

CTrees

2011-05-12, 11:33 AM

-Feat intensive to even make possible
-You can spend those feats, instead, on boosting your one two-hander
-You generally need some form of large bonus per hit to do equal damage. The aforementioned sneak attack, favored enemy, etc.
-Expensive to get two weapons enchanted reasonably
-If you use critical fumble rules (you shouldn't, but for some reason they seem really popular), you just plain should not use TWF, ever.*

*It's the old problem - a 20th level fighter specializing in using greatswords, with all the relevant feats, prestige classes, whatever, will end up hurting himself twice as often as a first level commoner child trying to hit someone with a double-ended flail (a weapon surely too insane for real use). It doesn't feel right, to say the least. Dual weilding just exacerbates that.

Keld Denar

2011-05-12, 11:36 AM

TWF needs 2 things to be really effective. You need bonus damage, and you need free movement. Bonus damage is not HARD to get, but often not intuitive. Rangers, in particular, are an offender because they get TWFing, but almost no source of bonus damage (Favored Enemy doesn't really count in most cases). Free movement is a bit harder to get. There's a pretty good list of sources of pounce and free movement by Person_Man, which helps. Again, thats another counter-intuitive aspect of TWFing.

The last thing is resources. Its 3 feats right off the back (or 2 feats +items), just to perform competantly. If you don't get your bonus damage via class features, you need to pick it up via feats like Knowledge Devotion or Holy Warrior or other such feats, and gear. 2handers just need to take Power Attack, and everything else can go towards whatever else they want, like more damage, or survivability, or versatility, etc.

arkol

2011-05-12, 11:39 AM

Mystify

2011-05-12, 11:40 AM

I get that uber-chargers are impressive(I've exploded campaigns with them), but alot of what they are doing always feels somewhat exploitive to me. shock trooper to get the penalty to AC is reasonable if you are using AC, but if you have already given up on it its no longer balanced. Just because there is 1 feat that is poorly designed and exploitable should mean that is the only valid build. Its also questionable what charge bonuses you can apply to extra attacks on a charge. If the premise is that you are using your momentum to make a powerful blow, that bonus would apply to the first attack, and after that you are just swinging your axe at them normally.
The argument for THW always seems to revolve around somewhat exploitive feats. (Feats I did not even use for my broken uber-charger that reliably dealt 400 damage per charge, with 1/400 chance of missing). The two weapon fighters I've seen were just as capable of dropping a high level enemy in one round with more accuracy than many charger builds.
Certain two weapon fighting builds also allow you to take out groups of mooks, which the uber-charger can only pull off if they are positioned for a cleave.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-12, 12:01 PM

Diarmuid

2011-05-12, 12:01 PM

But those same TWF guys couldnt take the guy down on the first round of combat like your charger. They need to get in its face, potentially opening themselves up to a Full Attack, and then meet all of their bonus damage requirements (flanking, favored enemy, bane type, etc) before being able to take that guy down.

Charger kills the same target starting from far away mostly-regardless of enemy type.

true_shinken

2011-05-12, 12:04 PM

TRangers, in particular, are an offender because they get TWFing, but almost no source of bonus damage (Favored Enemy doesn't really count in most cases).
Favored enemy usually gets a really bad rep ad well, but I'm happy you said in most cases, because it's quite easy to quite a very broad range of favored enemyes and to increase the damage done to them.
Favored enemy (arcanist) is a good start, covering all arcane casters. Favored enemy (evil) (from Harper Paragon or Stalker ok Kharash) is even better. Add Nemesis, Extra Favored Enemy (each type you get a new one, you add +2 to one other) and Improved Favored Enemy. Now you are detecting evil creatures and arcanists (and this is not a divination effect, meaning they can't hide from you), adding +1d6 damage if they are evil and adding +3 damage to all favored enemies. 1d6+3 alone costs only 2 feats (Nemesis and Improved FE) and that's along with one of the best detection abilities in the game. Seriously, Nemesis (evil) or Nemesis (arcanists) is pure gold.
With favored enemy (evil), it's even better. Let's say you took the Foehunter regional feat and you have no ranger levels, then you go into Harper Paragon. Then you get a Ranger level. Oh look, a new favored enemy! You get to add +2 to an older one! Favored enemy (evil) jumps to +4. Add Extra Favored Enemy and it's +6. And this bonus scales with level in a class that already has d10 hit dice and full casting advancement.
Man, I love Harper Paragon.

Ozymandias

2011-05-12, 12:05 PM

The argument for THW always seems to revolve around somewhat exploitive feats. (Feats I did not even use for my broken uber-charger that reliably dealt 400 damage per charge, with 1/400 chance of missing). The two weapon fighters I've seen were just as capable of dropping a high level enemy in one round with more accuracy than many charger builds.
Certain two weapon fighting builds also allow you to take out groups of mooks, which the uber-charger can only pull off if they are positioned for a cleave.

Well, think about it. If you can get 400 damage per charge without "exploititive feats" then you can pretty easily kill almost anything, with only a couple of feats invested. Chargers also have, generally, more mobility because they don't need to full attack.

Whereas TWF may be "just as capable" as THF (especially if you excise some of the THFers feats) but it's significantly more expensive for something that is not clearly better.

ericgrau

2011-05-12, 12:05 PM

Uberchargers are way better but in core the difference between TWF and THF is extremely small... including finished builds and remembering all costs. Most real life groups don't notice the difference. The slightest trick taking advantage of the extra attacks will push TWF ahead. So... level of ubercharger optimzation is a big factor, and the level of extra attack special effects is a small factor too.

Ernir

2011-05-12, 12:22 PM

THF does not rely on Shock Trooper, only certain charger builds do.

But. Calling the feats that give THFers the greatest numerical advantage exploitative while not doing the same for the best TWF enablers (like Sneak Attack) makes it sound as if the conclusion had been reached beforehand. What is exploitative and what isn't is... a matter of opinion.

Anyway, what I think are the biggest advantages of THF isn't the damage output. It's tactics and build limitations.
Tactics: TWF relies on specific conditions to reach its maximum effectiveness, namely being able to launch a full attack (chargers are similarly fragile). This can be worked around, by getting free or additional movement. The problem is that this takes effort, which may take away from other parts of your build. Being denied full attacks hurts THFers too, but less so than the TWFers who are completely reliant on their number of attacks.
Build limitations: To use the TWF option (effectively), you need to spend a feat. To have its benefits scale with your class level, you must spend additional feats (ITWF and GTWF). This takes up zero to three feats (none if you rely on Gloves of the Balanced Hand). You (Mystify), have admitted yourself that TWF doesn't work unless you have a source of per-attack bonus damage. That takes up a significant portion of your build, usually the bulk of your class features. Further, the feats require a significant amount of dexterity to use. This locks you into being a dexterity-based warrior, which steers you towards things like Weapon Finesse and light armors. THFers have natural inclinations like this as well, but they aren't as strong.

Mystify

2011-05-12, 12:22 PM

I may not have been using exploititve feats, but I was pulling all sorts of shenanigans to get quickened true strikes and impaling weapons and such in order to get that going. If all that effort to get a gamebreaking advantage is duplicated by a feat, and more effectively, than something needs to be fixed.

There seems to be some mentality going on here that if something is not the most optimal possible thing you could be doing,then its not worth doing. If you can do it and have it perfectly functional and effective, why does it become an idiotic choice because a completely different build can be better? Esp. since that build is based on things of questionable balance.

Also, it doesn't increase MAD becasue fighter's want dex anyways. armour is nothing by an AC limiter at high levels, and even with armour increasing the dex to AC you can get through it is one of the best ways to raise AC. Greater two weapon fighting only requires dex 19, so if you have agile mithral full plate, you get full use of the dex. Uber-chargers rarely have good Ac at high levels, but I have seen several dex-based characters remain untouchable into epic levels. Against monsters with significanlty higher CRs (10 higher on average). And that is a large part touch AC.

navar100

2011-05-12, 12:27 PM

Who says you are buying your weapons? You could just as well find two magic weapons among the treasures. It would be cool to wield a fire burst long sword and a cold burst short sword. At higher level, wield the Sunblade and Frostbrand. It's rare for a paladin to use two weapons, but it would be really, really awesome to wield two Holy Avengers.

Power Attack is good, but it's not the be all/end all. I don't care for the high Dex prerequisites for two-weapon fighting, but since you are investing heavily in Dex your Str might not be so high that two-handed weaponry would matter.

Some people balk at the -2 to attacks. Power Attack for -2 gives +4 damage. Two-weapon fighting allows for + weapon + modifiers.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-12, 12:30 PM

Some people balk at the -2 to attacks. Power Attack for -2 gives +4 damage. Two-weapon fighting allows for + weapon + modifiers.

Yes, but you're ignoring the fact that two-handed weapons have pretty much double the base damage, BEFORE power attack modifiers. So it's the same penalty, but 3 extra points of damage!

Ozymandias

2011-05-12, 12:36 PM

There seems to be some mentality going on here that if something is not the most optimal possible thing you could be doing,then its not worth doing. If you can do it and have it perfectly functional and effective, why does it become an idiotic choice because a completely different build can be better? Esp. since that build is based on things of questionable balance.

No one's arguing that you can't or shouldn't play TWF. You asked why people here tend to say it's weaker, and we've given some pretty good reasons, I think. The "mentality" that you're referring to doesn't exist; it's just that, in the milieu of this discussion, "better" means "more effective in combat" because that's what's relevant.

Also, saying that choices are balanced with each other once you take out the "questionably balanced" stuff isn't really saying a whole lot; in fact it's probably tautological.

Also, it doesn't increase MAD becasue fighter's want dex anyways. armour is nothing by an AC limiter at high levels, and even with armour increasing the dex to AC you can get through it is one of the best ways to raise AC. Greater two weapon fighting only requires dex 19, so if you have agile mithral full plate, you get full use of the dex. Uber-chargers rarely have good Ac at high levels, but I have seen several dex-based characters remain untouchable into epic levels. Against monsters with significanlty higher CRs (10 higher on average). And that is a large part touch AC.

If you really want good AC play a gish, where you'll also get miss chances and unmatched mobility. And they don't tend to have spectacular ACs.

In any case, AC can stop some attacks, namely those that require an attack roll. You know what stops just about every attack? Killing the attack dead before they get to.

As for attributes, I'd rather have +4 hp/level than +4 AC in just about every instance. If you have a decent skill list I'd probably rather have +4 skill points/level than +4AC after level 10 or so.

Mystify

2011-05-12, 12:36 PM

How about this:
two weapon fighting, two weapon pounce ,two weapon rend.

you can charge, strike with both weapons, and when they both hit deal 1d5+ 1.5 str extra damage. Since these attacks are at full BaB, they are extremely likely to hit. assuming a standard str-based build has +13 str mod at 20, that extra str damage is +19, you can stack on the normal charign abilities to get another +20 from the power attack, leaving you netting more damage since you have extra weapon damage in the mix. It falls behind a bit with leap attack, but you have a greater full round capabiltiy, while still having potent charges. You sacrifice little, if anything, for your two weapon fighting since both these feats extend from it naturally, and two weapon rend enhances it anyways.

Now you have good (though not the best) charges, and all the ferocity of a two weapon weilder's full round.

Ashentears

2011-05-12, 12:40 PM

Also, it doesn't increase MAD becasue fighter's want dex anyways.

You don't seem to understand the concept of opportunity cost. In most games, you have a limited pool for attributes. Maybe it's point buy, maybe it's a rolling method, but either way you usually only have one or two high scores.

As a fighter, you want strength. Strength means hitting more and hitting harder! It's also a req for Power Attack.

As a fighter, you want constitution. Con means rarely failing Fort saves, and having bad-ass amounts of HP. This is a great thing, since you are constantly getting in the face of big scary monsters.

Dexterity is a distant third. Very distant. For some builds it's fourth or fifth. Why? Because every point you put in dex is a point you no longer have for strength, con, or whatever other stat you need for your build. Going the full TWF route requires a HIGH dexterity, not merely an OK one. You can power attack with 13 Str, but you need a 19 dexterity for GTWF.

That is an incredibly high opportunity cost. Does it work? Sure, well enough. Most people here just wished it worked better, because it costs you vast amounts of resources (feats, stats, equipment, class levels) and you don't actually get to be a better fighter because of it.

Mystify

2011-05-12, 12:45 PM

Veyr

2011-05-12, 12:56 PM

Favored enemy usually gets a really bad rep ad well, but I'm happy you said in most cases, because it's quite easy to quite a very broad range of favored enemyes and to increase the damage done to them.
Favored enemy (arcanist) is a good start, covering all arcane casters. Favored enemy (evil) (from Harper Paragon or Stalker ok Kharash) is even better. Add Nemesis, Extra Favored Enemy (each type you get a new one, you add +2 to one other) and Improved Favored Enemy. Now you are detecting evil creatures and arcanists (and this is not a divination effect, meaning they can't hide from you), adding +1d6 damage if they are evil and adding +3 damage to all favored enemies. 1d6+3 alone costs only 2 feats (Nemesis and Improved FE) and that's along with one of the best detection abilities in the game. Seriously, Nemesis (evil) or Nemesis (arcanists) is pure gold.
With favored enemy (evil), it's even better. Let's say you took the Foehunter regional feat and you have no ranger levels, then you go into Harper Paragon. Then you get a Ranger level. Oh look, a new favored enemy! You get to add +2 to an older one! Favored enemy (evil) jumps to +4. Add Extra Favored Enemy and it's +6. And this bonus scales with level in a class that already has d10 hit dice and full casting advancement.
Man, I love Harper Paragon.
So that is how many feats and class levels to get a measly +1d6+6 (slightly worse, on average, than the +3d6 of a Rogue 5) damage against "most" enemies? This is good?

Ashentears

2011-05-12, 01:00 PM

Ozymandias

2011-05-12, 01:01 PM

I fully understand oppurtunity cost. I also understnad that when incremental bonuses cost quadradically more, and large number of small bonuses is much better and cheaper than one strong bonus. Hence, the more sources of AC you use, the better off you are. +5 armour costs 25k. +1 armor costs 1k, +1 shirt of natural armor costs 2k, animated sheild costs 9k, ring of delfection costs 2k, amulet of dex +2 costs 4k, and now you have +7 Ac for 18k. This continues to scale as you level, and maxes out higher. So a good fighter will be incresing their dex anyways.

This benefits characters with lower Dex more, though. A Fighter with Dex 12 gets some use out of a +4 or even +6 Dex item if he has mithral fullplate (Max Dex bonus is +4, right?). A fighter who paid for that 16 Dex to start and +3 at levels doesn't get anything out of them unless he drops to, like, padded leather, and he's worse off in HP and to-hit/damage. Unless you're using items to qualify for feats, which is kinda cheesy and could suck if you get hit by a shivering touch or lose your belt or something.

Or you could plop down the cash and buy inherent bonuses, or you could save your money because AC isn't very useful at high levels, especially to characters who can kill melee monsters in one round.

Mystify

2011-05-12, 01:06 PM

Mystify

2011-05-12, 01:09 PM

AC isn't very useful at high levels, especially to characters who can kill melee monsters in one round.
Au contraire, armour is not very useful at high levels. AC can be very useful still, esp. when its not limited by armour. And even if you can kill a monster in 1 round, his buddies can still charge you and tear you to shreds without AC. And since they can power attack with impunity if you have completely tanked it, you will likely suffer the same fate as the monster you just charged.

Keld Denar

2011-05-12, 01:14 PM

How about this:
two weapon fighting, two weapon pounce ,two weapon rend.

The issue then becomes that you are relying on SO many feats just to do your job as well as the next guy, that you are pretty much pigeonholed into taking a bunch of fighter levels to get those feats, denying you from the opportunity to take other classes that gives you other, rarer, class features. Like taking levels in Occult Slayer to pick up your own personal Mind Blank, or levels in a caster class and then one of various gishy PrCs like Abjurant Champion or whatever to give yourself more options. You are spending all of your feats on TWFing, most of the tricks therein only becoming viable at late levels when trading full attacks with a Balor or Pit Fiend or Dragon will get you deadified in short order. I'd rather spend feats on things like Steadfast Determination to shore up my weak will save, or Quick Recovery to spend fewer round disabled because a caster already thinks he wins the game.

Also, reach is king in 3.5. Reach will get you bonus attacks, and restrict powerful (read Huge+) foes from getting AoOs vs you. There are only like, 2 reach weapons you can TWF with (Spinning Sword + Kusiri Gama), which, btw, cost you ANOTHER feat.

I mean, when you really sit down to look at it, you CAN do some pretty neat, scary things with TWFing. If you build toward it, you can make a TWFer who competes on a level playing field, damage-wise, with the guy next to you with a Greatsword. Unfortunately, his total investment in the fight is 1 feat, Power Attack, and thus has TONS of other resources he can devote to things like adding status debuffs, increasing survivability, increasing versatility, or controlling foes movements. All TWF guy has is damage, for the most part.

EDIT: Also, it takes a good deal of effort and game mastery to build a competant TWFer. To build a good 2hander, you just take PA and learn how to use it efficiently. Its a bit more intuitive, and harder to screw up.

Ashentears

2011-05-12, 01:16 PM

If they do snipe off your dex, which would be rare, you can put away your second weapon and two-hand your primary, or you could carry spare potions of cats grace, which would reactivate most of your abilities, if not all of them.

I've played in games where anti-magic and dispels happened on a fairly regular basis. I've also played in games where your equipment gets stolen for plot reasons, etc...

Being gear dependent at the highest levels is somewhat of a must for non-casters, but making a build that is utterly gear dependent all the way through just sounds... bad.

And let's get this straight. You think that sinking 3+ feats, multiple class levels, a large percentage of your gold, and even actions in combat, into a style of fighting that gives you no clear mechanical benefit over THF is a good thing?

Please understand, I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who loves TWF. I've played TWFers, and I can build quite a few decent ones. But, the system is stacked against them. If you can't admit that, I think you shouldn't have even bothered making this threat - you're not really interested in the answers.

Edit: I'm also not saying people shouldn't TWF if that's what they want to do. Dervishing is fun! But people should be aware of what they're giving up to do it.

Mystify

2011-05-12, 01:35 PM

HalfDragonCube

2011-05-12, 01:45 PM

I would have thought the main problem is that you are going to be a combatant. After all, who wants to be a meatshield for the spellcasters?

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-12, 01:46 PM

I would have thought the main problem is that you are going to be a combatant. After all, who wants to be a meatshield for the spellcasters?

Crusaders do. :P

Ashentears

2011-05-12, 01:47 PM

You have to put resources into anything to be good at it. I don't see power attack by itself as anything that amazing. Its only when you start building on it that it becomes devestating. I also see full rounds as an important part of the game. I've never had trouble getting full rounds out. And even at high levels, you can have enough AC to shrugg off a dragon's full round.

Power attack is fantastic because it requires minimal investment for efficient gains. In other words, you can either have TWF, or you can have PA and a bunch of other really cool stuff. That's a problem with the system, but it's a problem that exists. It can't be ignored.

Full attacks can be quite challenging to get off in many campaign environments. Some DMs run fairly simple encounters, but many others make great use of tactical movement, special movement modes, spells, etc... that can really hinder anyone who relies exclusively on full attacks. This can also be true of chargers, of course.

I do find your experience to be atypical, though. Could you elaborate on examples of the kinds of encounters you're used to, and how often you were able to full attack during them?

My main complaint is that anytime someone mentions two weapon fighting, I always see this immedate reply that it sucks and is horrible. Today I saw a post on this forum that effectively gave the entire 2 weapon fighting tree as a single feat, and the response was to call it a trap. People act like taking it is dooming your character to uselessness. It can be the center of some very awesome, powerful, and effective characters, but because people feel like charging can be optimized more, that two weapon fighting is a black hole of suck.

That's fair. You won't suck at attacking things, really. I don't like that attitude either.

I think the more fair complaint is that while you'll be good at hitting things with two weapons, that's probably all you'll be good at. (I would level the same complaint at certain uber-charger builds, but most of those fall into theoretical op anyways)

HalfDragonCube

2011-05-12, 02:02 PM

Crusaders do. :P

I knew somebody would mention ToB.

Keld Denar

2011-05-12, 02:02 PM

cfalcon

2011-05-12, 02:09 PM

I think the reason TWF is so feat intensive (and Dex intensive) is that it's hard and rare in the real world. That's fine. But my big gripes with it are:

1)- Gimped standards compared to two handers. There is a feat to fix this- hell, I think there are two feast to fix this, one for attacks of opportunity, and one for standards.
2)- Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting sort of are traps. Perfect sure as hell is. This should all be one damned feat. The idea is that you spend a feat to get another attack. For TWF, that's actually pretty fair. It's a good attack. The problem is that a 20th level fighter doesn't have 4 attacks. He has one attack which is pretty much auto-hit on anything, a second good attack that is a LOT less accurate, a third attack that is either sort of ok (low AC), a wild swing (normal AC) or a total crapshoot (high AC). His fourth attack is at -15. There's plenty of targets that can't touch. In my current game, I have Two Weapon Fighting (for the first attack) and Improved Two Weapon Fighting (for all the others). This STILL costs a lot, but I *also* houserule full strength bonus on all attacks.

So basically, I buff two weapon fighting- and it's definitely not dominant.

From a mechanical perspective, in the unmodified game with most feats included, two weapon fighting can produce the biggest numbers- or at least, that seems to be the intention, once we ignore stuff like Shock Trooper, which is one part of a three part tactical feat that likely didn't see playtesting, and is a must-pick for most games that allow it. I suspect that this intention of "biggest numbers" is what got it. Then there's the "gotta catch'em all" nature of the TWF feats- each one actually adds damage, palpably.

Anyway, I think it needs help as written, and should be buffed. I think if you allow Shock Trooper and other degenerate 2-handed charge exploits, you should help out TWF even more to keep it desireable- allow a dual strike feat that would help out on a standard attack AND on an AoO, and consider allowing full Str bonus to all swings (I've never played without this houserule in all of 3.0+, and I've never regretted it- Pathfinder has it as a feat, I think).

Basically, whatever level of optimization you expect to see in game, try to build to that, and see if there's ANY situation that the TWF guy does more average damage, as your first order of business. If he never does, then presumably you have an issue, because he did just spend his whole feat budget on "does more damage", right? Etc. But don't pretend Shock Trooper doesn't exist, unless you ban it explicitly (as I do).

Ashentears

2011-05-12, 02:10 PM

If you don't know what you are doing, it IS a trap.

+1

In the last tabletop game I played, we had two TWFers. One let me help them out (since I'm the book-jockey of the group, heh), the other didn't.

By level ten the second character was practically useless. Their damage was just pathetic compared to everyone else, and they had no other useful skills or abilities.

So yeah, that's a good point Keld. THF works better out of the box - another good reason to inform people about the risks and necessities of the TWF path.

Divide by Zero

2011-05-12, 02:16 PM

Keld Denar

2011-05-12, 02:18 PM

There are a lot of traps within TWF as well. TW Defense is a TERRIBLE feat. Its about as bad as Dodge is. There is absolutely no reason to EVER take TW Defense when you could take Improved Buckler Defense instead. One the surface, both feats are the same...give you a +1 shield bonus to your AC. But when you look deeper, you see that you can increase that shield bonus to +6 (1 + 5 from a Magic Vestaments spell) and put a whole bunch of neato cheap enchantments on it...or HECK, even just spend the 9170g on a +1 Animated Shield for +3 AC and no feats, with the option of boosting that to +7 with a Magic Vestaments spell.

Mystify

2011-05-12, 02:24 PM

If you don't know what you are doing, it IS a trap.

One of my earlier 3.5 games, we had a Shifter Ranger. He had a long sword and a short sword. Against something that wasn't his favored enemy, his damage was 1d8+2 and 1d6+1. At like, level 8. Most of the time, he didn't break double digit damage for a single attack. The DM ended up giving him a pair of heavily magiced up swords (like, +3 Flaming Frost Shocking) just to allow him to do a little more damage. The guy who was 2HF with a QUARTERSTAFF was doing like, 1d6+30 damage between Str and average PA.

Its not a complete blackhole of suck, but its not exactly easy or intuitive to do well, while PAing is generally a lot more friendly.

That type of thing is where I suspected most of the prejudice came from. By itself, it really is poor. If you look at a two weapon ranger, they are awful. I've never even seen someone try to play one since they are clearly inferior. Its not something you can just throw on a character and expect to do well. People see that kind of character in action, and incorrectly assume that two weapon fighting is awful.

For rouges, it is huge. A single sneak attack from rouge is not that impressive. Even at level 10, a wizard can sneeze more damage than a level 20 rouge sneak attacks for. The sneak attack can't be multiplied, so you need a full round to get use out of it. And if you need a full round, doubling the number of attacks you get doubles your effectiveness. You are probably dex based anyways, so that is not an issue. Its just 3 feats that pretty much doubles your effectiveness. An investment, yes, but a good one IMO.

As for the types of campaigns, one was a demn slayign capmaign, which admittedly benefitted heavily from enemy-specific damage. Another was a campaign where we had 3 rather broken characters and so ended up with encoutners 10+ CR above us. At high levels there are tons of ways to increase your mobility, and dex based characters are kings of AC. Another campaign was in the 4-6 range, and the duel-wielding rouge tore things up. Another campaign was a high level gestalt, where the dervish/monk/EWM/scout/fighter/dragon shaman got 13 attacks per round, most of them at full bab, and at level 21 could get 32 attacks per round, each doing nearly 60 damage on average. And once per day they could double it. While moving about 90 feet per round. Single enemy, concerates fire, its dead. hoard of enemies, it can dance through them, and dish out the damage effectvely. This is using 3 classes that are generally considered fairly poor and a weapon style everyone dislikes.

Divide by Zero

2011-05-12, 02:29 PM

That type of thing is where I suspected most of the prejudice came from. By itself, it really is poor. If you look at a two weapon ranger, they are awful. I've never even seen someone try to play one since they are clearly inferior. Its not something you can just throw on a character and expect to do well. People see that kind of character in action, and incorrectly assume that two weapon fighting is awful.

I would consider that part of the bad design. If it sucks for a class that gets it as a class feature, obviously something is wrong.

Hazzardevil

2011-05-12, 02:31 PM

It's mostly because you spend half a dozen feats getting the extra attacks. And a two handed fighter can get just as much damage done, if not more and they don't have to spend the feats to do it.
Let me add up all the feats you need to roughly match two handed fighting.

Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved,
greater,
Double hit, ( this lets you attack twice on AoO's,)
So thats 4 feats that mean you know need 2 good stats just to attack people, you still deal 1.5 your strength damage to your opponent with lower to-hit and you could very easily miss with either attack. And you have to pay a lot more money to get keen scabbards, pay for abilities twice and pay 36,000 gold pieces for 2 shortswords and a 2h person only has to pay 18,000 for 1. Now when you hit epic you finally can optimise.
The only 2 good ways are as follows:
Pouncing Charges or A crapton or trips/Disarms/Sunders.
Not very attractive is it?

Mystify

2011-05-12, 02:32 PM

I think rangers are poorly designed start to finish, but that is a seperate issue. Ranger's problem with it is that it's a class feature, but it has no connection to anything else they are doing. Ranger's can either be archers or two weapon fighters, and they suck at both (relatively. A ranger can be a valuable combatant with a bow, but an archery fighter can wipe the floor with them).

Keld Denar

2011-05-12, 02:35 PM

Mystify

2011-05-12, 02:40 PM

Let me address the perceived money gap. Lets say we have two characters, each with a +10 weapon. One of them has a greataxe, the other has a longsword, but also has a mundane shortsword.

greataze guy gets 4 attacks with his axe. This +10 weapon gets +5 to hit on these 4 attacks, 5 extra damage, and 5 points of special attribute effects.

Longsword guy gets 4 attacks with his longsword. This +10 weapon gets +5 to hit on these 4 attacks, 5 extra damage, and 5 points of special attribute effects.

He also gets to swing his shortsword a few times, and may get some extra damage with it.

From the monetary standpoint, both of these characters has the same increase in effect on there weapon. Greataxe guy benefits a bit more from the extra accuracy.

This +10 weapon costs 200k. A +7 weapon costs 98k. So 2 +7 weapons are a bit cheaper than a +10 weapon.

Now lognsword guy gets 4 attacks with +5 to hit, +5 damage, adn 2 poitns of special ability effects
-and-
3 attacks with +5 to hit, +5 damage, and 2 points of (perhaps differnt!) ability effects.

Your money is going further! It just happens you can also continue to spend money on this past what a single weapon fighter can.

Mystify

2011-05-12, 02:45 PM

And by 3 feats, you really mean 4, since you have TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and Weapon Finesse.

A Rouge Rogue 20 gets 7 feats (1,3,6,9,12,15,18), 8 if you are human. Thats 4/7 of your feats, or 1/2 of your feats if human. Thats...a lot of resources. Tie in TW Pounce and TW Rend like you've suggested and we are now at 6/7 feats, or 6/8 for a human. Oh, and most of those feats aren't accessable throughout your whole career, although granted you don't need ITWF until you have a BAB of +6 or GWTF until you have a BAB of +11, but still...

they can benefit from TW pounce, but TW rend is silly on the rouge build. The ycare abotu sneak attack, not str damage. The yare getting weapon finesse anyways, so you can't count that againt TW fighting. And since the requirements for the extra attacks require you to have the extra iterative attack, you maintain your doubling of effectiveness throughout. So that is 3/7 of your feats to double your effectivness. Imagine if the wizard could take 3 feats and be twice as powerful. Rouge also has special abilities after 10, which could be used for feats if there is something that important to fit in the build. And if there isn't anything that important, what are you complaining about?

Keld Denar

2011-05-12, 02:48 PM

OR, you spend 98k gold on a +7 weapon, and the other 98k gold you would have spent on the 2nd weapon on a backup +2 Adamantine weapon (for DR, sundering, dealing with being disarmed, etc), a +6 Con neckpiece, a +5 Cloak of Resistance, and Boots of Speed.

Like I said, opportunity cost. You have to balance what you have with what you have available. You can come up with just about any scenario, and I can come up with a way to spend that money better. The only way I couldn't would be if you had infinite money, but thats not a very rational ground for discussion.

You don't even need a +7 weapon, so long as you have GMW available. Past about +5, the double square formula becomes too dang oppressive for the minor bonuses you get. Thus, you pick the best +3-4 equivalent bonuses, stack them on a +1 weapon, and GMW the heck out of it to make up the difference, then spend all the money you saved on other swag that increases your damage, survivability, and versatility.

EDIT: You can build a 2handed Str based rogue, so Weapon Finesse isn't a gimme. Its still a cost. Just because the class says "rogue", doesn't mean you have to be dex based. Generally, skill points and magic items make for a bigger difference in skill checks than stats do.

Like I said, it IS possible to build a competant TWFer. It is even possible to build a really GOOD TWFer. Look up Jack-B-Quick or any of the old CharOp Shadowpouncer builds. They are very good at what they do, but nearly ALL of their feats and class features are devoted to doing what a guy with a +6 Belt of Giant Str and a +5 magic greatsword can do with 1 feat and full BAB...

And those are high end CharOp builds, built by people with a tremendous amount of system mastery. Its possible, but its not easy, which is why its often refered to as a trap. You can't dispute this fact. Just because you can build a TWFer, and I can build a TWFer, doesn't mean EVERYONE can build a TWFer.

Eldariel

2011-05-12, 02:50 PM

Yeah, basic slew of issues with TWF:
- Multi-Attribute Dependency. You need high Dex for the feats and high Str (or a bunch of feats) to hit and damage. The problem compared to Two-Handing is obvious.
- The base feat chain is 3 feats, as opposed to the one feat (really zero, to match TWF) you need for Power Attacking. Not only that, but each feat that builds from the original is worse than the previous.
- You have -2 on all attacks.
- Any time you're limited to one attack (after movement, attack of opportunity, on charge, etc.) you are only half as effective as a two-hander.
- Any bonus attacks you get (Haste, Whirling Frenzy, AoOs, etc.) only do half of what they do for a two-hander.
- You need to invest in two magic weapons (and any extras for additional metals, alignments and what-have-you).
- You never get the 4th iterative on the off-hand.
- Any size increases to weapon dice are not favorable for you.
- There are no one-handed martial reach weapons and the exotic reach weapons are obscure. Reach is the king in 3.X due to how combat rounds work (can't block people out of turn order, 5' steps make it very hard for anyone to utilize the fact you can't attack people right next to you, free AoOs for everyone), so outside Kusari-Gamas and Spinning Swords, TWF is just sorta boned here.
- Yeah, can't Power Attack. It's probably the single biggest damage source in any caster-buffed party or non-Core warrior even alone, so this is very huge.

TWF basically gets to apply weapon effects and on-hits and static bonuses (e.g. Weapon Specialization) more often but the lack of reach, worse AoOs & attacking after movement and the fact that you have to invest 3 feats just for the basic attacks and never get the 4th iterative really screw TWF over.

You need massive on-hit damage bonuses (like Sneak Attack, which is very unreliable with the ease the game offers Crit Immunity with) to make it worthwhile and you still won't outdamage two-handers built for damage while investing all your levels for the damage bonuses. Simply put, TWF needs to:
- Not be so expensive. TWF should've only ever been 1 feat (Legacy reasons made it what it is; WoTC should've realized revamping the rest of the combat system changes the values of things like TWF). As it stands, you really gain nothing for the massive Dex-investment TWF requires.
- Be applicable more often. What good is your second weapon if you never get to attack with both? This is an overarching problem with melee (one that has few solutions but again, they all cost resources) but a two-hander is about twice as efficient when attacking only once.
- Gain comparative benefits from extra attacks. This is just no-brainer; Haste is twice as effective for a two-hander than a two-weapon fighter.

And then, if you revamp the combat system to be a bit more reasonable (say, eliminate 5' steps/only allow them towards an opponent you're attacking in melee, and allow move actions to "block someone") to make reach weapons a bit less obligatory, then we might be talking. As it stands, TWF is just stupidly gimped by comparison to THF.

It can be made work with a massive feat and class level investment (or playing a ToB class) but with the same investment you could get a much stronger two-hander as well so that's not saying much. TWF doesn't suck in vacuum, it sucks in comparison to the other option.

EDIT: Oh, and Damage Reduction sucks for TWFers, especially since it's generally a significant investment to get past it. Either you need weapon qualities of at least +2 level or multiple actual weapons. Either way, it sucks.

Mystify

2011-05-12, 02:56 PM

OR, you spend 98k gold on a +7 weapon, and the other 98k gold you would have spent on the 2nd weapon on a backup +2 Adamantine weapon (for DR, sundering, dealing with being disarmed, etc), a +6 Con neckpiece, a +5 Cloak of Resistance, and Boots of Speed.

Like I said, opportunity cost. You have to balance what you have with what you have available. You can come up with just about any scenario, and I can come up with a way to spend that money better. The only way I couldn't would be if you had infinite money, but thats not a very rational ground for discussion.

You don't even need a +7 weapon, so long as you have GMW available. Past about +5, the double square formula becomes too dang oppressive for the minor bonuses you get. Thus, you pick the best +3-4 equivalent bonuses, stack them on a +1 weapon, and GMW the heck out of it to make up the difference, then spend all the money you saved on other swag that increases your damage, survivability, and versatility.

If you are counting GMW, it is even better. Your caster can just use antother casting of it, and you have 2 +5 weapons. Since the only increased cost was getting accuracy up for yoru str damage, you now have the ability to add extra enchantments for the reduced cost. Wanted a fiendbane enchantment and a feybane enchnatment? on one weapon, its a +3, for 18k. On 2 weapons, its two +2s, for 16k. This is the worse part of the curve, since you have to pay for the extra +1, but you still end up ahead.

My point is, however much you were planning on spending on your 1 weapon, you get more use out of it by splitting it between two weapons. Hence, two weapon fighting saves money.

shadow_archmagi

2011-05-12, 02:58 PM

1d6+30

Keld, could you drop some of the math behind that? I'm not coming to critique the argument, but I was just curious as to how exactly everything adds up. I usually play wizards so I've never looked into where stabbers get all the numbers that make for high attack, damage, and AC.

Keld Denar

2011-05-12, 02:58 PM

Or, as I said, you spend that 2nd weapon worth of cash on other things...like survival gear with +Con, +resistances, and/or miss chances.

Opportunity. It costs.

Keld, could you drop some of the math behind that? I'm not coming to critique the argument, but I was just curious as to how exactly everything adds up. I usually play wizards so I've never looked into where stabbers get all the numbers that make for high attack, damage, and AC.

Half-Orc Fighter4/Barb4 with a +2 Quarterstaff. Starting str was, IIRC, 18 after racials (not even that 20 possible). 2 level bumps up to 20, and a +2 Str belt to make that 22. Thats +6 base, +9 wielded 2handed. Tack in Rage for another +3 damage, or +12 base, and Weapon Spec for another +2. Power Attacking for 4 with Armbands of Might yields -4 to hit and +10 to damage, which is +26 damage.

Ok, maybe I exaguated the +30 damage, but thats to completely out of reach. If she had started with a 20 Str instead of 18 after racials, that would have been 27, and a friendly casting of Enlarge Person would have resulted in +29, including bumping the base damage up to 1d8. Also, she was only PAing for half of her attack bonus, PAing for all of it would have given her +18 from PA for a total of 34 damage. We had a fair number of +hit bonuses from my cleric's Righteous Wrath + Recitation combo and intelligent use of Flanking, so she generally didn't have much trouble hitting.

Mystify

2011-05-12, 03:02 PM

Or, as I said, you spend that 2nd weapon worth of cash on other things...like survival gear with +Con, +resistances, and/or miss chances.

Opportunity. It costs.

if you are spending that second weapon worth of cash on other things, then the one handed figher has less invested in his weapon, and if you match that investment, you get more out of it.

The oppurtunity cost is less since it is cheaper to enchant 2 weapons to get the same effectiveness. A guy with a single +x weapon and a guy with 2 +x weapons do not have the same benefit. Especially if the accuracy bonus is coming from a low level spell.

Boci

2011-05-12, 03:13 PM

if you are spending that second weapon worth of cash on other things, then the one handed figher has less invested in his weapon, and if you match that investment, you get more out of it.

The oppurtunity cost is less since it is cheaper to enchant 2 weapons to get the same effectiveness. A guy with a single +x weapon and a guy with 2 +x weapons do not have the same benefit. Especially if the accuracy bonus is coming from a low level spell.

So how is a TWF going to replicate a +1 glaive of speed?

Keld Denar

2011-05-12, 03:14 PM

You are looking at money in a vacuum. You say that instead of buying a +N weapon, its smarter to buy 2x +N-1 weapons. I'm saying that instead of buying a +N weapon, you buy 1x +N-1 weapon and spend the rest on OTHER gear that the guy who spent his cash on weapons can't afford.

Plug in N with any number you want. I garuntee at any ECL you can pick, I can find more important things to spend WBL on than a 2nd weapon which either also increase damage, or increase survivability. Cause you know...you can't deal ANY damage when you're dead.

Your analogy is flawed anyway. You are saying that TWFing guy buys one +1 Bane: Outsiders weapon and one +1 Bane: Fey weapon, while 2hand guy has to buy a +1 Bane: Outsiders Bane: Fey weapon, which is obviously much more expensive. Why? Why can't 2hand guy just buy two swords as well, using which ever one is most advantageous at the time? The TWF actually benefits the LEAST from this, given that almost nothing qualifies as both a Fiend and a Fey, so he's only getting the benefit of his main hand or his off hand at any given time. He's "wasting" effective enhancement bonus, more or less.

EDIT: One of my favorite builds actually uses a Dwarven Urgrosh. Instead of TWFing with it though, he only uses one end at a time. One side is enchanted for sheer damage, using enchants like Wounding and Collision for the biggest impact on the largest number of foes. The other end was enchanted for utility, with Transmuting for overcoming DR, and situational things like Spellstoring and Bane: Evil Outsiders. The trick is to only use whichever one was most beneficial at the best time. Its the same concept...he could have a +10 weapon, but instead he has two +9 weapons he can swap back and forth for utility. But he isn't using both at once, meaning that those situational abilities aren't wasted against foes that their situation isn't best used for. And the best part, is he doesn't require Quickdraw to switch to either end...

Mystify

2011-05-12, 03:23 PM

If you buy a flaming sword, then you get 4 attacks that deal 1d6 fire damage, so up to 4d6 fire damage per round. Since the last attack is probably going to miss, lets call it 3d6, with the later 2 d6 less likely to apply.
so a flaming enchantment gives +3d6 fire damge/round. If you are two weapon fighting, you do not need to put flaming on both weapons to get +3d6 fire damage per round, you only need to put it on one. If you do put it on both, you now have +6d6 fire damage per round. Hence the utility of enchanting a weapon with 2 enchantments is the same utility as enchanting two weapons with 1 enchantment. However, enchanting 2 costs less, and lets you reuse the same enchantment if you wish.

so if your 1 weapon guy wants to buy a +N weapon, after setting aside all the money he would spend on everything else, the 2 weaponed guy can buy 2 N-1 weapons for the same price, and get more utility. And this is not theoretial utilility of "I could pull out my bane weapon", but practical utility of "I will be utilizing this flaming sword every round".

For the same investment, a two weapon fighter can get more utility. If the one handed fighter buys the lesser weapon instead to spend the money elsewhere, they are not getting the utilty the two-weapon fighter is getting, and once again, the two weapon fighter could be spending less to get that same utility.

The banes were a bad example, I apologize for that.

Keld Denar

2011-05-12, 03:38 PM

so if your 1 weapon guy wants to buy a +N weapon, after setting aside all the money he would spend on everything else, the 2 weaponed guy can buy 2 N-1 weapons for the same price, and get more utility. And this is not theoretial utilility of "I could pull out my bane weapon", but practical utility of "I will be utilizing this flaming sword every round".

For the same investment, a two weapon fighter can get more utility. If the one handed fighter buys the lesser weapon instead to spend the money elsewhere, they are not getting the utilty the two-weapon fighter is getting, and once again, the two weapon fighter could be spending less to get that same utility.

Again, you're buying gear in a vacuum. It looks good on paper, but it fails in practice. The bolded phrase is where your falacy lies. You never have "all the money he would spend on everything else", because there is almost always more stuff to buy than you can afford. Even just covering all of your bases (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) takes a significant portion of a level 20 character's WBL.

Basically, no matter what N you pick, I can pick an N-1 weapon to do the same job, making up the difference in other gear, and still be effective. Thus, you are always spending twice as much as a 2handed fighter will.

Oh, and he only spent 1 feat, you spent 4. Basically, you are buying a Toyota, and he's buying a Lexus...except you are paying more for your Toyota than he is for his Lexus. And yea, you COULD trick out your Toyota by adding all kinds of custom toys and perks so that in the end, it LOOKS like a Lexus, but at that point...why not just buy a Lexus and save yourself the work and a bunch of extra money?

Mystify

2011-05-12, 03:46 PM

Take our 2 characters, You have bought a weapon of price X, and deemed that a worthwhile tradeoff compared to whatever else you would be buying at this level. It gives you n utility. A two weapon fighter can buy 2 weapons whose total price is x, and get >n utility, and can still get everything else that the one weapon fighter is getting.

They have spent the same money,bought the same non-weapon items, spend the same amount on their weapons , and the two weapon fighter has greater utility.

Now tell me, if they can spend the same amount, get everything the other has, and the two weapon fighter can get more value from it, how is that not saving money?

Divide by Zero

2011-05-12, 03:47 PM

Starbuck_II

2011-05-12, 03:49 PM

Don't forget it also increases MAD, unless you're getting the feats for free (ranger) or you have Dex anyway (Rogue).

So that initial statment that fighters can easily pull it off? I don't think so...

CW Samurai gets for free and in any armor (unlike Ranger who must be light armor).
But still not that great damage.

Divide by Zero

2011-05-12, 03:51 PM

CW Samurai gets for free and in any armor (unlike Ranger who must be light armor).
But still not that great damage.

Actually, low-Dex TWF is pretty much the only build where you'd ever have a reason to take CW Samurai levels.

Veyr

2011-05-12, 03:53 PM

If you really want to focus on Intimidate, CW Samurai... at least has something to offer. It might not be worth it even for a dedicated Intimidator, but at least it's a unique feature.

Keld Denar

2011-05-12, 03:56 PM

Wouldn't Zhent Fighter9 + Never Outnumbered result in better AoE Demo rolls for the levels invested? At least you get to PICK your bonus feats with Fighter levels...

Also, Dungeoncrasher is epik!

Talya

2011-05-12, 04:00 PM

This is the same argument people used in the most VOP thread (and I didn't disagree with them, only that VOP isn't as bad as people think.)

Taking any feat and using it regularly should always always always make you better. (Did I mention always?) Feats come at a premium and so many of them are great, but there's also so many that are mediocre. But in most cases, even a mediocre feat like "Dodge" is better than Two Weapon Fighting. Why?

Dodge gives you that +1 ac against one enemy. Pathetic, but it's something.

In most situations, fighting with two weapons will cost you damage and give you nothing in return. The cost to lower your damage like this, is several feats, and a whole lot of gold for that second weapon.

Note that I said "most." There are always exceptions. In any situation where you find your character will be regularly coming up with large amounts of fixed bonus damage, by all means dual weild! If you find you're weilding a one handed weapon anyway for some other reason, and cannot weild it two handed, then yes, by all means, use two weapons! (eg. some people interpret Snowflake Wardance to allow two weapons, and if you're going melee bard, then yes, do it) If you're specializing in sword & board fighting (do people do that?) then yes, take TWF so you can bash with that shield.

I'm a bit torn on the implementation of TWF in 3.5. In real life combat, two weapon fighting is extremely hard and rarely to a combatant's advantage either. On the other hand, the advantages of weilding an einhander aren't all that well modeled in D&D either, and for style reasons, some people might just want to dual weild and I have nothing against that. It can be made to work well. But as feats, they are terrible.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-12, 04:01 PM

If you really want to focus on Intimidate, CW Samurai... at least has something to offer. It might not be worth it even for a dedicated Intimidator, but at least it's a unique feature.

Actually, a level 13 CW samurai/rogue/exemplar of intimidation has a ridiculous intimidate bonus. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885)

Mystify

2011-05-12, 04:01 PM

Because if you can get by with two weapons of total cost x, then the fighter can get by with a weapon of cost x/2 and have all that extra money to spend on gear that would be more useful than a second weapon.

and in what case do you need a weapon of level x? making it magic in the first place? Thats not a huge factor after a while, and when it is a factor having 1 weapon that you can switch to two-handing isn't that bad a thing. If a fighter can get by with a weapon of cost x/2, then a two weapon fighter can get more value from two weapons of cost x/4. This works except for the very bottom of the enchantment ladder, in which case the two weapon fighter carries aroudn a mundane offhand weapon for a while.

Its already been established that buying normal enhancements to a weapon is pointless since the mage can GMW it, and since enhancements are the only way to increase accuracy(except for bane, but thats situatuional) and accuracy is the only weapon bonus that is not going to be a linear increase.

When I say "fighter bought a wepon costing x", I am ssuming this is after you have gone"oh, but I could get a smaller weapon and buy these items instead". That is the final weapon you have settled on using. And the two weapon fighter can get the same utility for less, except in the edge cases, where he is no worse off.

Veyr

2011-05-12, 04:02 PM

Wouldn't Zhent Fighter9 + Never Outnumbered result in better AoE Demo rolls for the levels invested? At least you get to PICK your bonus feats with Fighter levels...
I've never read Zhentarim Fighter (not even sure what book it's in, other than that it's some random FR book; I really don't care for FR and haven't read many books from it), so I don't know... but like I said, it might not be worth it, but at least it's something the Samurai can do.

Coidzor

2011-05-12, 04:05 PM

I've never read Zhentarim Fighter (not even sure what book it's in, other than that it's some random FR book; I really don't care for FR and haven't read many books from it), so I don't know... but like I said, it might not be worth it, but at least it's something the Samurai can do.

it's Champions of Valor Web Enhancement material. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)

Veyr

2011-05-12, 04:10 PM

Oh, nifty. Huh, Champions of Valor and Champions of Ruin; two FR books that seem to do a fair amount saving Core classes from uselessness. I should maybe read those.

Thrawn183

2011-05-12, 04:32 PM

I've always house ruled it in my games that the standard TWF tree is just a different attack option for all classes, and there's no attack penalty, and both weapons can be used on a charge or AoO. The TWF feat becomes something that let's you wield two one-handed weapons without penalty.

This fairly neatly solves the feat tax and the problems with power attacking. You're playing a game where a level 9 ranger can track a toad that is hiding its tracks, across rocky terrain after half an hour of rain by taking 10 (ie. every time) without the use of magic. Just fighting with two weapons shouldn't really be a big deal for characters like that.

Axinian

2011-05-12, 08:48 PM

Actually, a level 13 CW samurai/rogue/exemplar of intimidation has a ridiculous intimidate bonus. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885)
My knowledge of these things is limited, but at this point this has to be the most (in)famous PvP match on these boards.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-12, 08:51 PM

My knowledge of these things is limited, but at this point this has to be the most (in)famous PvP match on these boards.

Mine too. The only reason I know about it is because it's in Shneeky's sig.

navar100

2011-05-13, 08:37 PM

Mystify

2011-05-13, 08:40 PM

Ok, what about multiweapon fighting? Is that enough extra to tip the scales?

Skaven

2011-05-13, 08:45 PM

TWF is decent for some characters. For rogues especially as it drastically enhances their main class ability: sneak attack. Also it can mean extra fortitude saves vs poison if you use it too. Its well worth even one extra feat for just that one extra attack.

Greenish

2011-05-13, 09:41 PM

From a mechanical perspective, in the unmodified game with most feats included, two weapon fighting can produce the biggest numbers- or at least, that seems to be the intention, once we ignore stuff like Shock Trooper, which is one part of a three part tactical feat that likely didn't see playtestingThe part of Shock Trooper the feat that you object to is Heedless Charge, which does tend to overshadow the two other options, but I feel those are quite nifty too. Instead of banning the whole feat, I'd just look into fixing/nixing that one outlier use.

CW Samurai gets for free and in any armor (unlike Ranger who must be light armor).
But still not that great damage.Doesn't it have weapon limitations?

Its already been established that buying normal enhancements to a weapon is pointless since the mage can GMW it, and since enhancements are the only way to increase accuracyEnhancements to the weapon are far from the only way to increase one's accuracy. :smallamused:

Anyhow, TWF does require more investment, in feats and in money. That's just the fact. It's not a reason why you shouldn't play TWF'er (I've actually a TWFer in a PbP running currently and another lined up for a different PbP), but there's no point denying it.

I mean, I sunk almost 40% of my wealth on my 6th level character for shiny +1/+1 double scimitar, and I couldn't pump my dex to grab ITWF while keeping other important stats reasonable. That character will probably be better off two-handing until ECL 10 (discounting DFI, which will admittedly give quite a boost).

My other character, level 4 now, has burned two feats for Finesse and Shadow Blade to get the mileage from his dex, then one for TWF, and next I'm going for EWP to get reach (the lack of which has already almost killed me more than once).

They both also have splashes of ToB and a level in pouncedarian since it's one of the more efficient ways of not having to worry about movement so much.

Mystify

2011-05-13, 09:44 PM

I meant enhancements were the only way to enchant the weapon to increase accuracy.

and I've already explained why it saved you money. Just because people have a tendency to do it inefficiently doesn't mean it cost more.

Greenish

2011-05-13, 09:52 PM

I meant enhancements were the only way to enchant the weapon to increase accuracy.Well, it's not that either, but that doesn't matter, since you can actually use money for other ways to increase your accuracy.

and I've already explained why it saved you money.And I still don't quite follow. Perhaps you could give a concrete example?

Eldariel

2011-05-13, 09:55 PM

Ok, what about multiweapon fighting? Is that enough extra to tip the scales?

Of course having 4 attacks to 1 is enough to make the 4 better. Thing is, characters who can multiweapon fight have more options; they can get extra multipliers from wielding a two-hander in 4 hands, or they can dual-wield two-handers. Also, those tend to involve investment in Racial HD and LA or some spellz; MWFers are just a different consideration entirely.

Worira

2011-05-13, 10:40 PM

and in what case do you need a weapon of level x? making it magic in the first place? Thats not a huge factor after a while, and when it is a factor having 1 weapon that you can switch to two-handing isn't that bad a thing. If a fighter can get by with a weapon of cost x/2, then a two weapon fighter can get more value from two weapons of cost x/4. This works except for the very bottom of the enchantment ladder, in which case the two weapon fighter carries aroudn a mundane offhand weapon for a while.

Its already been established that buying normal enhancements to a weapon is pointless since the mage can GMW it, and since enhancements are the only way to increase accuracy(except for bane, but thats situatuional) and accuracy is the only weapon bonus that is not going to be a linear increase.

When I say "fighter bought a wepon costing x", I am ssuming this is after you have gone"oh, but I could get a smaller weapon and buy these items instead". That is the final weapon you have settled on using. And the two weapon fighter can get the same utility for less, except in the edge cases, where he is no worse off.

What is this crazy backwards-think? You're mathing it wrong.

Mystify

2011-05-13, 10:57 PM

Alright, concrete example.

Fighter 1 is going to spend 50k on his single weapon. Assume that this is a perfectly reasonable amount to spend on it at whatever level he is. This gives him a +1 enchantment, and +4 in special properties. Lets say flaming, shocking, magebane, impaling weapon. This gives him +3 damage, 3d6 fire damage, 3d6 shock damage on his full rounds. If the target is a mage, he deals an additional 6+6d6 damage, and he can make 3 touch attacks per day.

Fighter 2 is going to spend 50k on two weapons (or halves of a double weapon). He can get a +3 weapon and a +4 weapon for 50k (18k+32k).

So lets say he has a +1 flaming magebane quarterstaff end, and a +1 shocking magebane impaling quarterstaff end.

On a full round, he gets +6 damage, 3d6 fire damage, 3d6 shocking damage, and if its a mage, 12+12d6 damage. He can also make 3 touch attacks per day with one end of the quarterstaff, which he could strike with 2 handed to get full benefit of power attack and str, and only be 1d6 damage short compared to the guy with one weapon.

So, they have spent exactly the same amount of money on their weapons, and the two weapon fighter has significantly more from it. Ergo, he is getting more value for the same cost, and could hence be getting the same value for less cost, and therefore is saving money.

Worira

2011-05-13, 11:05 PM

Mystify

2011-05-13, 11:17 PM

Or, y'know, he buys a +4 weapon, dropping the flaming enchantment and buying a belt of giant strength +4 with the extra money, taking away 1d6 damage per attack and replacing it with 3 extra damage and +2 to hit, or +7 damage if he power attacks away the accuracy bonus. And buys himself a Hand Haversack too, to store his collection of antique pottery or whatever else he feels like.

I said that the money spent was appropriate for the level. Assume he has a belt of giant str +6 and whatever else. In fact, that +3 to hit applies to both of his weapons, so he's even getting more value out of that. I could do the same thing by matching the bonus for a +4 weapon. You know what, I will.

+4 weapon costs 32k. +1 flaming shocking magebane.

+3 damage, + 3d6 fire damge, +3d6 shocking damage, and an extra 6+6d6 against mages

Two weapon fighter gets a +3 for 18k, a 2 for 8k, clocking in at a total of 26k, leaving him 6k to spend on whatever else. +1 flaming magebane end and a +1 shocking end.

+6 damage, +3d6 fire damage, +3d6 shocking damage, and 6+6d6 damage against mages.

oh look, I'm still ahead, and I have 6k left over.

For however much you spend on your weapon, the two weapon fighter can get more utility out of it.

I don't care if you are buying a +5 weapon or a +4 weapon or a +1000000 weapon, it doesn't matter. Saying you will spend less on your weapon does not change this.

NineThePuma

2011-05-13, 11:52 PM

I said that the money spent was appropriate for the level. Assume he has a belt of giant str +6 and whatever else. In fact, that +3 to hit applies to both of his weapons, so he's even getting more value out of that. I could do the same thing by matching the bonus for a +4 weapon. You know what, I will.

THERE IS THE PROBLEM IN YOUR THINKING.

Right there. That line.

You can never have everything else you need, and you will never be able to assume that you have those things; in a situation where you DO, then money becomes no object. But not all of us play in an environment like that. TWF costs more of your WBL to optimize, and having to spend that money to optimize it cuts into the "everything else" and that's where you're having issues.

Mystify

2011-05-14, 12:08 AM

Ok, you have to agree that whatever equipment your character has, a certain amount of it has been spent on your weapon. A two weapon fighter can take that exact same investment, and get more return on it. The only way they can't is if you have not spent anything on your weapon, in which case there is no monetary disadvantage to having two weapons. When I say that a two weapon fighter utilized their investment in weaponry better, you can't just say that you spend less on your weapon. Unless you are arguing that weapons should never be enchanted, the two weapon fighter can get more out of the same investment into weaponry.

MeeposFire

2011-05-14, 12:13 AM

If you are really interested in proving your point show what a character at X level would have using his WBL for two weapons and see what happens. Since we are talking about two weapon fighting being worth it for non-standard twf classes pick a class like fighter or paladin and go from there. Make it a single class warrior just to take class mostly out of this.

So Pick a level and use the WBL and see if the TWF items can stay ahead THF. I doubt you can prove two weapon fighting can come out ahead but you can try to show it.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 12:13 AM

Furthermore, you're forgetting the two-weapon fighter's initial disadvantages, Mystify. Even if they are of the same class, the two-weapon fighter

1) Starts at a -2 to hit
2) Outside of Shadow Blade Swordsages, does not get his to-hit stat applied to damage, which puts him behind on that front

These two functions in combination with each other mean that the two-weapon fighter will actually need his enhancement bonuses to be +2 higher than the two-handed fighter to hit equally efficiently, and he'll still be behind, before weapon enhancements, when one looks at total damage, since he doesn't get Strength to it. And you paid a feat to do this (two feats at level 6, and 3 feats at level 11).

For a class that gets buckets of precision damage, like a Rogue, sure, it's a solid choice. However, the damage bonuses from weapon enchantments are not a large enough source of bonus damage to make two-weapon fighting a reasonable fighting style, particularly if one wants to hit with them reasonably frequently (and thus ponies up the cost for the excessively enchanted weapons necessary to keep up with the THF'er). This problem is amplified by the issues of melee at high-level play. DR inherently disfavors flurries of weaker attacks, and is fairly common among iconic enemies. You cannot reliably get full attacks without either foolish enemies or a high enough level of optimization that you may as well play a charger and be done with it.

NineThePuma

2011-05-14, 12:14 AM

Mystify

2011-05-14, 12:29 AM

But your argument is ONLY looking at the comparison of money spent on weapons. I can, literally, pick up a great sword and have most of my damage bonus as a THF still exist, while the opposite is true of the TWF.

Note, however, that I prefer TWF, cause chargers are boring. I either go TWF with precision damage or ToB.

That part of my argument was purely that two weapon fighting does not have an increased cost, which is one argument that is always thrown around.

" I can, literally, pick up a great sword and have most of my damage bonus as a THF still exist, while the opposite is true of the TWF." I'm not sure what you are trying to say with that. If you are arguing that a found greatsword can be picked up and used by a TWF effectively, I don't see your point. If you found an equivelently enchanted dagger, a TWF could get lots of use out of it, but a THF would be drastically reduced in power. If its a one-handed weapon, either character could utilize it. If thats not what you are trying to say, then please clarify this statement.

If you are really interested in proving your point show what a character at X level would have using his WBL for two weapons and see what happens. Since we are talking about two weapon fighting being worth it for non-standard twf classes pick a class like fighter or paladin and go from there. Make it a single class warrior just to take class mostly out of this.

So Pick a level and use the WBL and see if the TWF items can stay ahead THF. I doubt you can prove two weapon fighting can come out ahead but you can try to show it.

A paladin two weapon fighter is idiotic, at least in 3.5. In pathfinder it would rock against evil, in 3.5 the most you could do with it is burn through your smites faster. A fighter can make a strong backbone to a two weapon fighting build. I've never argued that it is the best style for everyone, or that it will improve anybody, only that it is a powerful part of certain builds.

Also, there are many types of weapon style builds beyond chargers and TWF. I haven't heard anyone arguing about how they are better.

If I try to utilize all of the wealth by level to demonstrate the superiority it just becomes an excercise in who can optimize buying items better. That is why I isolated it; After you have bought everything, you spend X on your weapon. I don't care what X is, a single weapon costing X is worse than 2 weapons whose value totals X. Saying that X is less doesn't make any sense. I don't understand what is so hard about this concept.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 12:37 AM

That part of my argument was purely that two weapon fighting does not have an increased cost, which is one argument that is always thrown around.

" I can, literally, pick up a great sword and have most of my damage bonus as a THF still exist, while the opposite is true of the TWF." I'm not sure what you are trying to say with that. If you are arguing that a found greatsword can be picked up and used by a TWF effectively, I don't see your point. If you found an equivelently enchanted dagger, a TWF could get lots of use out of it, but a THF would be drastically reduced in power. If its a one-handed weapon, either character could utilize it. If thats not what you are trying to say, then please clarify this statement.

A paladin two weapon fighter is idiotic, at least in 3.5. In pathfinder it would rock against evil, in 3.5 the most you could do with it is burn through your smites faster. A fighter can make a strong backbone to a two weapon fighting build. I've never argued that it is the best style for everyone, or that it will improve anybody, only that it is a powerful part of certain builds.

Also, there are many types of weapon style builds beyond chargers and TWF. I haven't heard anyone arguing about how they are better.

If I try to utilize all of the wealth by level to demonstrate the superiority it just becomes an excercise in who can optimize buying items better. That is why I isolated it; After you have bought everything, you spend X on your weapon. I don't care what X is, a single weapon costing X is worse than 2 weapons whose value totals X. Saying that X is less doesn't make any sense. I don't understand what is so hard about this concept.

What you're missing is that, as I have demonstrated, you can't just buy two cheaper weapons, because your to-hit is actually lower than the THF'er. You need to spend more on each weapon than he spends on his one single blade just to get to parity.

We haven't been discussing other fighting styles than charger because that's the one that two-weapon fighting best matches up with. Both are solely concerned with doing damage, so we can easily compare how they work out. A Spring Attacker succeeds if he does damage to his enemy and gets far enough away that his enemy can't hit back. A battlefield controller isn't concerned with doing much damage to his enemies at all, his aim is to keep them away from himself and his allies.

Their goals are different, so comparing them is pointless.

I suppose that you could also compare the TWF'er to archers, but archery wins fairly handily due to
1.) Pretty much always full-attacking
2.) Full-attacking long before any other combatant can get into range
3.) Overcoming DR easily due to the cheap cost of special material arrows.

NineThePuma

2011-05-14, 12:45 AM

If thats not what you are trying to say, then please clarify this statement.

Assume the following scenario: Your character has their gear stolen, or is otherwise unable to use their usual WBL.

THF: "I'll pick up a stick (quarter staff) and two hand with it!"

TWF: "... Well, crap, I suppose I'm out of luck?"

Swordguy

2011-05-14, 12:52 AM

In real life combat, two weapon fighting is extremely hard and rarely to a combatant's advantage either. On the other hand, the advantages of weilding an einhander aren't all that well modeled in D&D either, and for style reasons, some people might just want to dual weild and I have nothing against that. It can be made to work well. But as feats, they are terrible.

No. No it is not. Two weapon fighting was incredibly common and immensely useful (using two implements, one in each hand, was practiced by fighters throughout the Renaissance with rapier and a variety of "things" including dagger, lantern, buckler, and second rapier...not to mention the Gallowglas mercenaries with their sword and spear and every sword&board fighter that ever picked up a weapon). Simply put, with two implements - ANY two implements - you can simultaneously parry an attack and launch a counterattack of your own which the other guy CANNOT parry (as he is still extended in his attack against you) unless he has a second implement of his own to use. It is ALWAYS better to have two weapons than one unless one of two circumstances is in play, 1) you don't care whether you live or die in the battle (Saxon Huscarls, Norse Berserkers, etc), or 2) you can't reliably penetrate the other guy's armor without the extra leverage granted by wielding a weapon in both hands.

The problem is that it's incredibly difficult to model simultaneous parries AND attacks in an RPG that's round-based and maintains a pretense of an "action economy". For two-weapon fighting to be modeled the way it's supposed to work, you have to be able to take actions on the opponent's turn in response to a maneuver performed against you. Because this is complicated, most systems avoid it, and thus the primary advantage of wielding two weapons is lost.

As for the "difficulty" of using two weapons, 2 things. First, the only "paired" European weapon that was historically considered difficult to wield was the case [pair] of rapiers, and that was because they were 40+" long and with that length the other guy could easily exert leverage against the tip of one to trap the other. Second, if you have the coordination to wield a knife and fork while eating, or mouse and keyboard playing videogames, you have sufficient ambidexterity to learn to use an implement in each hand.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled rules debate.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 12:55 AM

No. No it is not. Two weapon fighting was incredibly common and immensely useful (using two implements, one in each hand, was practiced by fighters throughout the Renaissance with rapier and a variety of "things" including dagger, lantern, buckler, and second rapier...not to mention the Gallowglas mercenaries with their sword and spear and every sword&board fighter that ever picked up a weapon). Simply put, with two implements - ANY two implements - you can simultaneously parry an attack and launch a counterattack of your own which the other guy CANNOT parry (as he is still extended in his attack against you) unless he has a second implement of his own to use. It is ALWAYS better to have two weapons than one unless one of two circumstances is in play, 1) you don't care whether you live or die in the battle (Saxon Huscarls, Norse Berserkers, etc), or 2) you can't reliably penetrate the other guy's armor without the extra leverage granted by wielding a weapon in both hands.

The problem is that it's incredibly difficult to model simultaneous parries AND attacks in an RPG that's round-based and maintains a pretense of an "action economy". For two-weapon fighting to be modeled the way it's supposed to work, you have to be able to take actions on the opponent's turn in response to a maneuver performed against you. Thus the primary advantage of wielding two weapons is lost.

As for the "difficulty" of using two weapons, 2 things. First, the only "paired" European weapon that was historically considered difficult to wield was the case [pair] of rapiers, and that was because they were 40+" long and with that length the other guy could easily exert leverage against the tip of one to trap the other. Second, if you have the coordination to wield a knife and fork while eating, or mouse and keyboard playing videogames, you have sufficient ambidexterity to learn to use an implement in each hand.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled rules debate.

A valid point. Isn't it also true, though, that shields were generally better for that purpose than a main gauche? If parry mechanics were to be provided in the game, I'd think that S&B would be the main beneficiary, rather than two weapon fighting.

Edit: I realize that you specifically mentioned sword and board, but since you're bringing this point up on a 'why do people point out that TWF is suboptimal' thread, I figured I'd make sure I understand the distinction.

El Dorado

2011-05-14, 12:56 AM

Assume the following scenario: Your character has their gear stolen, or is otherwise unable to use their usual WBL.

THF: "I'll pick up a stick (quarter staff) and two hand with it!"

TWF: "... Well, crap, I suppose I'm out of luck?"

Technically, the TWF could pick up another stick (double weapon). . .

Swordguy

2011-05-14, 01:02 AM

A valid point. Isn't it also true, though, that shields were generally better for that purpose than a main gauche? If parry mechanics were to be provided in the game, I'd think that S&B would be the main beneficiary, rather than two weapon fighting.

It depends on the situation and a MASSIVE number of specific factors to say which is "better". Most fights devolve into close-range grapples. If yo have a dagger, you have some options in such a situation that are not available if you have a shield.

The basic mechanic of "I use one weapon to parry or deflect your attack while simultaneously attacking with my other weapon" is valid in the vast, VAST majority of cases (and for it not to be valid, we're talking something like trying to directly parry a greatsword overhand blow with a dagger). Some weapons are more efficient at it than others, but some weapons also give you additional options in a fight that make up for lesser efficiency at this.

(And before anyone chimes in with "D&D isn't real life!"...humans in D&D have the same bones, joints, and body shapes as we do. Thus they are ALSO limited by the same kinesthetics we are, which in turn limits how one can fight. The old saw about not letting reality into your fantasy doesn't fly if you're asking why something works differently in the game than it does in real life.)

EDIT: Just saw your own edit. To clarify, the physical act of controlling two implements called a "sword and board" is not appreciably different or harder than using sword and dagger, or axe and dagger, or sword and hammer, or any other paired rigid implement. Some implements have greater or lesser functionality in some situations than others. A shield is REALLY good at catching blows, but not especially good at hitting someone with (especially a shield with an arm strap rather than a punch grip). An axe is less good at catching blows, but it can still do it...and you can hook the other guy's leg out with it or smash through his armor more efficiently than the sword you have in your other hand can do. But regardless of what you have, having a second "thing" in the other hand that can stop a blow and allow you to strike back at the same time is practically ALWAYS better than having only one thing that can either attack OR parry (not both).

Mystify

2011-05-14, 01:09 AM

What you're missing is that, as I have demonstrated, you can't just buy two cheaper weapons, because your to-hit is actually lower than the THF'er. You need to spend more on each weapon than he spends on his one single blade just to get to parity.
There are plenty of options for overcoming that penalty. If you are using a pair of exotic weapons, you can go into EWM for a level and get a bonus. If you are using bludgeoning weapons on a fighter, you can take the crushing strike feat(which a fighter build easily has room for), which gives you a +1 to hit for every attack that hits this round. Since its pretty well know that the first attacks in a fighters full round are pretty much guaranteed to hit anyways, this is a +2 on the next iterative attacks, the ones that need the bonus, putting the first on par with the single weapon fighter, and giving the next an edge. Now your later iterative attacks are more likely to be hitting.
Combine this with offense metered foot, you get to select an opponent, and every consecutive attack against them that hits grants a +1 insight bonus, up to a limit of 5. These combine, so each hit you are making is granting a +2 to hit, and the extra attacks allows you to snowball this o the point where your later attacks are at nearly full BaB. And the offense metered foot can carry over to the next round.

If a single weapon fighter tries this, they improve their accuracy, but iterative attacks die down much faster than the bonuses grow, and since they are dependent on continued accuracy, this doesn't grant nearly the same bonuses.

Who's more accurate now?

We haven't been discussing other fighting styles than charger because that's the one that two-weapon fighting best matches up with. Both are solely concerned with doing damage, so we can easily compare how they work out. A Spring Attacker succeeds if he does damage to his enemy and gets far enough away that his enemy can't hit back. A battlefield controller isn't concerned with doing much damage to his enemies at all, his aim is to keep them away from himself and his allies.

Their goals are different, so comparing them is pointless.

I suppose that you could also compare the TWF'er to archers, but archery wins fairly handily due to
1.) Pretty much always full-attacking
2.) Full-attacking long before any other combatant can get into range
3.) Overcoming DR easily due to the cheap cost of special material arrows.

Assume the following scenario: Your character has their gear stolen, or is otherwise unable to use their usual WBL.

THF: "I'll pick up a stick (quarter staff) and two hand with it!"

TWF: "... Well, crap, I suppose I'm out of luck?"

The quarterstaff is a double weapon, so the TWF can use it perfectly fine.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 01:09 AM

It depends on the situation and a MASSIVE number of specific factors to say which is "better". Most fights devolve into close-range grapples. If yo have a dagger, you have some options in such a situation that are not available if you have a shield.

The basic mechanic of "I use one weapon to parry or deflect your attack while simultaneously attacking with my other weapon" is valid in the vast, VAST majority of cases (and for it not to be valid, we're talking something like trying to directly parry a greatsword overhand blow with a dagger). Some weapons are more efficient at it than others, but some weapons also give you additional options in a fight that make up for lesser efficiency at this.

(And before anyone chimes in with "D&D isn't real life!"...humans in D&D have the same bones, joints, and body shapes as we do. Thus they are ALSO limited by the same kinesthetics we are, which in turn limits how one can fight. The old saw about not letting reality into your fantasy doesn't fly if you're asking why something works differently in the game than it does in real life.)

Well, I'd point out that most D&D adventurers can reasonably expect to land in the second category that you've mentioned (can't break through well without extra leverage (i.e. breaking through DR)), so for adventurers, at least, THF still makes a good deal of real-world sense.

Also, wouldn't pike formations point to another case where wielding two implements is a poor idea (when it restricts you from using an extremely favorable weapon against an important enemy)?

Anyway, this information you bring up is interesting. In that case, then, what led most to the shield becoming such a standard in real-world armies? Avoiding arrow volley casualties? Superior parrying during the initial rush allowing for weight of numbers to swing battles?

Swordguy

2011-05-14, 01:17 AM

Also, wouldn't pike formations point to another case where wielding two implements is a poor idea (when it restricts you from using an extremely favorable weapon against an important enemy)?

If you're in a pike formation, you're not really engaged with the enemy in that he can't hit you back. Your defense is distance, not an implement. Once the other guy gets close enough he can hit you, you generally want two weapons again.

Anyway, this information you bring up is interesting. In that case, then, what led most to the shield becoming such a standard in real-world armies? Avoiding arrow volley casualties? Superior parrying during the initial rush allowing for weight of numbers to swing battles?

People want to survive the fight more than they want to kill the other guy. Having a shield maximized the opportunity for the wielder to live (by maximizing the efficiency of stopping the other guy's attacks) and still allowed him to wield an offensive weapon. Not having a shield was considered very reckless or even suicidal in large swathes of Europe for a VERY long time - this is one reason why people were so scared of beserkers; there's a whole psychological aspect behind this wherein a soldier sees a guy with a weapon big enough to smash his shield, and whom also doesn't even have a shield himself, which screams out that he's willing to take a mortal blow just to ensure you die (and your shield can't do anything about it)...which in turn sends your morale plummeting.

(Just trying to provide some context for the discussion here; people have a LOT of misconceptions about how two-weapon fighting works.)

NineThePuma

2011-05-14, 01:17 AM

And where is the TWF's quarterstaff damage output? TWF is -gear dependent- for extra damage (or it's not, and it's dependent on other effects, like precision damage, and no one here is saying that TWF is bad for Rogues) and THF isn't (Well, beyond the usual 'I need a weapon' cliche.)

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 01:18 AM

There are plenty of options for overcoming that penalty. If you are using a pair of exotic weapons, you can go into EWM for a level and get a bonus. If you are using bludgeoning weapons on a fighter, you can take the crushing strike feat(which a fighter build easily has room for), which gives you a +1 to hit for every attack that hits this round. Since its pretty well know that the first attacks in a fighters full round are pretty much guaranteed to hit anyways, this is a +2 on the next iterative attacks, the ones that need the bonus, putting the first on par with the single weapon fighter, and giving the next an edge. Now your later iterative attacks are more likely to be hitting.
Combine this with offense metered foot, you get to select an opponent, and every consecutive attack against them that hits grants a +1 insight bonus, up to a limit of 5. These combine, so each hit you are making is granting a +2 to hit, and the extra attacks allows you to snowball this o the point where your later attacks are at nearly full BaB. And the offense metered foot can carry over to the next round.

If a single weapon fighter tries this, they improve their accuracy, but iterative attacks die down much faster than the bonuses grow, and since they are dependent on continued accuracy, this doesn't grant nearly the same bonuses.

Who's more accurate now?

The quarterstaff is a double weapon, so the TWF can use it perfectly fine.

Going into Exotic Weapon Master
1.) Requires yet another feat, putting you now four total feats behind a guy who decides to just pick up a club and walk off to kill dragons.
2.) Is not available until mid-levels, leaving low-level TWF'ers out in the cold
3.) Requires a specific sourcebook, which
4.) Is the same sourcebook as the supposedly-reviled Shock Trooper feat, which boosts the THF'er's expected damage well beyond what a TWF'er can match.

Also, it's a level that you could be spending on actually getting something new, rather than making your TWF a bit less inefficient.

Crushing Strike
1.) Is available for only those who wield bludgeoning weapons. In my experience, TWF'ers tend to aim more for slashing types.
2.) Requires extensive investment in the Weapon Focus line for a specific bludgeoning weapon, an investment of another four feats.
3.) Is not available until level 14, over 2/3s of the way through even the most long-lasting game.
4.) Presupposes another sourcebook.
5.) Requires 4 levels of Fighter, which is not one of the classes that most benefit from TWF, since it provides no meaningful bonus damage.
6.) Does nothing for your initial attack, and needs for you to hit twice to make up for the penalty.
7.) Is pointless unless you can get full attacks, which, since you're sinking so many feats into your TWF tree, you're going to have a much harder time getting than someone who didn't require umpteen levels of Fighter, but could afford to jump into Dervish or something.

Don't know about Offense Metered Foot, but I am quite sure that it will also cost you something.
So, overall, I'd say it's still the THF. Nice try, though.:smalltongue:

Mystify

2011-05-14, 01:59 AM

Going into Exotic Weapon Master
1.) Requires yet another feat, putting you now four total feats behind a guy who decides to just pick up a club and walk off to kill dragons.
2.) Is not available until mid-levels, leaving low-level TWF'ers out in the cold
3.) Requires a specific sourcebook, which
4.) Is the same sourcebook as the supposedly-reviled Shock Trooper feat, which boosts the THF'er's expected damage well beyond what a TWF'er can match.

Also, it's a level that you could be spending on actually getting something new, rather than making your TWF a bit less inefficient.

Crushing Strike
1.) Is available for only those who wield bludgeoning weapons. In my experience, TWF'ers tend to aim more for slashing types.
2.) Requires extensive investment in the Weapon Focus line for a specific bludgeoning weapon, an investment of another four feats.
3.) Is not available until level 14, over 2/3s of the way through even the most long-lasting game.
4.) Presupposes another sourcebook.
5.) Requires 4 levels of Fighter, which is not one of the classes that most benefit from TWF, since it provides no meaningful bonus damage.
6.) Does nothing for your initial attack, and needs for you to hit twice to make up for the penalty.
So, overall, I'd say it's still the THF. Nice try, though.:smalltongue:

bludgeoning vs. slashing is mostly irrelevant unless you are dervish. Exotic weapon master is not terribly crucial, and best achieved through racial weaponry. The weapon focus tree is awesome. Its accuracy and damage matches a barbarians strength increase. That is, by level 12 you are matching the strength increase of a level 20 barbarian. Fighters have no shortage of feats to spend on this. People complain that fighter's can't utilize all their feats, since anything they specialize in runs out of steam before long, so they have to take a second specialization, which doesn't matter by this point. So why is having all of these options and abilities to pour into the mix a bad thing? Your initial attack is not going to miss, even with the -2 penalty. The attack progression, based on BaB, is -2/0/-3/-1/-6/-4/-7. compared to 0/-5/-10/-15. Really now, which is more accurate? Throw in a level of barbarian, get pounce and rage. Rage's bonus applies to your accuracy, you get the bulk of barbarians damage boost compared to a high level barbarian, the strength damage is just as effective in several 1 1/2 time hits or a 1x hit and 1/2 hit. 1 feat to get more rages per day. figheter to 12 to get all of the weapon specialization, and enough extra feats to absorb the "feat tax", as you guys put it. you now have a +6 to hit from those class fatures, +7-8 damage on each hit, and still have plenty of levels left over to do other things with. And it is more effective to get 1 (maybe 2 for uncanny dodge) level of barbarian and burn a feat on extra rage, then go into fighter, than it is to stick with barbarian. If you take the right barbarian variant, you can turn the con bonus from barbarian into an ac bonus, and gain yet another attack on this full round.

And if that build is a gestalt with monk, you can flurry for 2 extra attacks, which allows you to escalate the accuracy to +8 before losing accuracy to iterative attacks. And that is that many more strikes to deal full damage with. now the progression is -2/+0/+2/+4/+1/+1/-2/-2/-7.

These are all fairly basic options. Notice I haven't even used a prestige class in either of these builds, or anything other than barbarian and fighter.

Coidzor

2011-05-14, 03:32 AM

...Does anyone still have, lurking somewhere in their favorites, the thread of this where they actually had the table made up that compared things?

Once the other guy gets close enough he can hit you, you generally want two weapons again.

Generally when that happens one is dead due to the difficulty in switching arms while in a pike formation and with people managing to avoid dying on the ends of it and instead being able to walk up and stab everyone, I had thought.

BobSutan

2011-05-14, 05:12 AM

TWF gets a bad rep because using two handed weapons does more damage.

And without the feat sink and hit the attack bonus. The only time I use TWF is when I play a dex based weapon finess rogue.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 08:13 AM

bludgeoning vs. slashing is mostly irrelevant unless you are dervish. Exotic weapon master is not terribly crucial, and best achieved through racial weaponry. The weapon focus tree is awesome. Its accuracy and damage matches a barbarians strength increase. That is, by level 12 you are matching the strength increase of a level 20 barbarian. Fighters have no shortage of feats to spend on this. People complain that fighter's can't utilize all their feats, since anything they specialize in runs out of steam before long, so they have to take a second specialization, which doesn't matter by this point. So why is having all of these options and abilities to pour into the mix a bad thing? Your initial attack is not going to miss, even with the -2 penalty. The attack progression, based on BaB, is -2/0/-3/-1/-6/-4/-7. compared to 0/-5/-10/-15. Really now, which is more accurate? Throw in a level of barbarian, get pounce and rage. Rage's bonus applies to your accuracy, you get the bulk of barbarians damage boost compared to a high level barbarian, the strength damage is just as effective in several 1 1/2 time hits or a 1x hit and 1/2 hit. 1 feat to get more rages per day. figheter to 12 to get all of the weapon specialization, and enough extra feats to absorb the "feat tax", as you guys put it. you now have a +6 to hit from those class fatures, +7-8 damage on each hit, and still have plenty of levels left over to do other things with. And it is more effective to get 1 (maybe 2 for uncanny dodge) level of barbarian and burn a feat on extra rage, then go into fighter, than it is to stick with barbarian. If you take the right barbarian variant, you can turn the con bonus from barbarian into an ac bonus, and gain yet another attack on this full round.

And if that build is a gestalt with monk, you can flurry for 2 extra attacks, which allows you to escalate the accuracy to +8 before losing accuracy to iterative attacks. And that is that many more strikes to deal full damage with. now the progression is -2/+0/+2/+4/+1/+1/-2/-2/-7.

These are all fairly basic options. Notice I haven't even used a prestige class in either of these builds, or anything other than barbarian and fighter.
:smallconfused: So, to try to make TWF superior to THF, you are
1.) Gestalting with a Monk, when gestalt is acknowledged to be a high-power variant
2.) Giving him the ability to multiclass, which apparently the THF character lacks
3.) Spending a grand total of seven feats, or all of your class features up to level 12, and comparing it with apparently a Warrior (an NPC class, I'll note), since the THF gets no class features whatsoever
4.) Assuming that every one of his attacks hit, to provide your supposed attack progression
5.) Looking at the game only from level 16 on (since you're now comparing full iterative progressions)
6.) Taking Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, which is considered cheesy by several DMs.
7.) Ignoring the stylistic reasons that most people play a TWF, which does not involve wielding light maces, since maces are associated with strength and endurance, rather than dexterity and skill, like kukris and shortswords.
8.) Ignoring the alignment restrictions of Barbarians and Monks.

You aren't proving the superiority of the fighting style, you're just spending more resources on it, attacking a specific case, making the comparison invalid, and calling yourself the victor.

And no, the Weapon Focus line is not awesome. It is in fact generally acknowledged as suboptimal. Because while you spend all your levels on Fighter and all your feats on the Weapon Focus line, you could be learning to do new things like using sublime maneuvers to actually be able to function when you aren't able to full attack, or just spending your feats on new and better things, like Three Mountains Style. It's only vaguely optimal in a Core-Only game, in which case you aren't getting access to pretty much any of the TWF improvement sources that you've listed. Rage is only considered awesome because it can be gained with a single level in a class with a skill list that doesn't essentially consist of 'lolno,' rather than twelve levels of a class that does have such a skill list.

Edit: The reason, in short, that TWF is generally considered a suboptimal style is that
-it has a lower power ceiling (compare Jack B Quick with Ubercharger)
-it has a lower power floor (compare a random level 1 falchion-wielding barbarian to a level 1 Fighter who spent his feats on Weapon Finesse and TWF, granting him the ability to do 1d6 damage twice, at -2 to hit)
-it is more negatively affected by certain systemic challenges (the difficulty of getting off a full attack, the reach of enemy bruisers, and DR) than two-handed fighting, and starts at a disadvantage

It is therefore regarded as underpowered. This doesn't mean that a viable character can't be made with it. It just means that the majority of characters using TWF will be weaker than the majority of characters using THF.

FMArthur

2011-05-14, 09:30 AM

Non-ToB melee classes are driven by feats more than class features. Just keeping your TWF up to date with your latest BAB iteratives costs you dearly.

So after THF Style picks his one recommended feat, he gets enhance his combat capabilities in other ways, expand his options or just improve his first option. TWF Style on the other hand will have mostly just the mandatory feats that let his style keep up with a featless THF.

It exacerbates one of the problems that hold melee back in 3.5: lack of options and lack of versatility. If you pour feats into it and dedicate your class levels to it you can get something good back - that's not being contested at all. It's just that THF doesn't have to do that to be good. They simply do not need to have their whole build defined by the one attack pattern they chose at the start, and TWF does.

Greenish

2011-05-14, 09:37 AM

A shield is REALLY good at catching blows, but not especially good at hitting someone with (especially a shield with an arm strap rather than a punch grip).Amusingly, the only shield in D&D with a punch grip specifically can't be used to bash people. No wait, 3.5's buckler is strapped to your arm.

Edit: The reason, in short, that TWF is generally considered a suboptimal style is that
-it has a lower power ceiling (compare Jack B Quick with Ubercharger)Jack is a funny build, but it's not even intended as a demonstration of TWF efficiency. It's a fighter 20, for gods' sakes.

If we were to build a TWFer for maximum damage (like übercharger is built), it'd probably involve Revenant Blade and as many of übercharger's tricks as possible.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 09:43 AM

Amusingly, the only shield in D&D with a punch grip specifically can't be used to bash people. No wait, 3.5's buckler is strapped to your arm.
Jack is a funny build, but it's not even intended as a demonstration of TWF efficiency. It's a fighter 20, for gods' sakes.

If we were to build a TWFer for maximum damage (like übercharger is built), it'd probably involve Revenant Blade and as many of übercharger's tricks as possible.

Fair enough. It was just the best TO build I could think of that used two-weapon fighting. I imagine that the same holds true if you compare a Shadowpouncer to an Ubercharger. If you go with the Ubercharger tricks, then given that the vast, vast majority of the Ubercharger's damage comes from Power Attack, the ultimate damge TWF'er would still deliver (at best, since you also have to consider what'd need to be moved out of the build to account for the TWF feats) about half the damage of the Ubercharger.

Spiryt

2011-05-14, 09:45 AM

All you need to know about TWF vs THF in 15 seconds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhJQp-q1Y1s)

Greenish

2011-05-14, 09:49 AM

Fair enough. It was just the best TO build I could think of that used two-weapon fighting. I imagine that the same holds true if you compare a Shadowpouncer to an Ubercharger.Well, yeah, übercharger is quite something.

Still, I don't feel a shadowpouncer is the best TWF can offer in the race, either, unless you can get a huge number of teleports per round.

[Edit]: You sneaky ninja, you. :smalltongue:

If you go with the Ubercharger tricks, then given that the vast, vast majority of the Ubercharger's damage comes from Power Attack, the ultimate damge TWF'er would still deliver about half the damage of the Ubercharger.I was talking about TWFers who use Power Attack and other überchargers tricks, since that's probably the highest damage option. Revenant Blade or in a pinch EWM.

Quietus

2011-05-14, 09:53 AM

Alright, let's step up and see, Mystify. We'll assume level 12, core-only, with up to 40% of our WBL spent on weapons - so up to 35,200. We'll assume an opponent of average AC for level 12. I've taken the AC from the CR12 monsters on the SRD using this filter : http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20monsterfilter/index.php, so we're looking at the following.
Abyssal Basilisk : 17
Adult brass dragon : 27
Young adult bronze dragon : 26
Eleven-headed cryohydra : 21
Frost worm : 18
Kolyarut : 27
Kraken : 20
Leonal : 27
Colossal monstrous scorpion : 26
Elder black pudding : 4
Purple worm : 19
Eleven-headed pyrohydra : 21
Roper : 24
Mature adult white dragon : 28

I'm going to discount the elder black pudding as a far outlier, so we have an average AC of 23.

Stats will be the elite array, which I believe is 15/14/13/12/10/8. I'm not looking for a full build, just the highlights - which feats you buy that primarily support your style, big ticket items, where you place your additional ability points, and a general look at your damage. Anyone else can step in if you like, I'm just laying down a starting point. I'm hardly an optimizer, here. Also, let's assume that we use this chart : http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html for

For my build, I'll go Human, with str 18, 12 dex, 14 con, 13 int, 10 wis, 8 cha. All stat improvements went into strength. Feats include EWP spiked chain, power attack, combat reflexes, combat expertise, and improved trip. This is fully set up by level 3 if I go pure fighter. Continuing pure fighter would give 8 additional feats, or I can multiclass from here, maybe aim for Horizon Walker in a variation of the Horizon Tripper build.

Extra feats can be spent on combat options (bull rush, disarm, sunder, even whirlwind attack if you really want), or the weapon focus line if you want to spend four feats for +2 attack/+4 damage (translates to +8 damage via power attack).

My weapon is an adamantine +1 speed spiked chain. Or, since that would put me 150 gold over weapon budget, cold iron - either way works, to get a special material to bypass DR. I also buy a +4 strength item for 16,000 - this puts me at 22 strength.

Extra money goes into basic upgrades like armor (full plate is likely), a dex increaser for more attacks of opportunity, maybe a basic +1 backup weapon (gauntlets? Spiked armor?), and then the various odds and ends that any adventurer might want.

Other options include swapping the spiked chain for a lance and going mounted combat.

Attacks and average damage : Not counting any "additional options" that I haven't locked in, like weapon focus/specialization and such, on a full attack, this character is looking at +11/+6/+1 base attack, with +1 enhancement bonus, +6 strength, and the speed enhancement, so +18/+18/+13/+8. Basic damage is 2d4+10, or 2d4+14 if I count a -2 power attack penalty to match TWF. Average damage is 19 per hit.

Effective damage : My attacks, in decreasing order of attack bonus, have the following likelyhood to land : 75%, 75%, 50%, 25%. Adding these together gives me 225% of my average damage that I'm likely to land against an average AC, or 42.75 damage/round. If I add in weapon focus, specialization, and the greater version of each, then power attack the extra attack bonus, my average damage goes from 19 to 27, or 60.75.

How does your TWF fare in this comparison, Mystify?

Talya

2011-05-14, 09:55 AM

Veyr

2011-05-14, 10:04 AM

That's an interesting idea — you'd actually see those options used — but I'm concerned it'd be a bit too easy, perhaps, to just grab a light shield or something and take the sweet freebie bonus to AC. Say, for a Wizard, who doesn't care anyway?

I'd probably make it dependent on having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Now they're actually giving something up (attacks they could have made with a reasonable attack bonus), and they've actually put resources into it. Work out something analogous for shields, I suppose.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 10:05 AM

Hmm. Hey, what would you guys think of this minor rule change to more accurately model the type of two weapon fighting that Swordguy is describing:

For a trained two weapon fighter, allow each hand individually to use the defensive fighting or total defense options.

For example, you could take a defensive fighting stance with your off hand, gaining +2 to total AC, but taking -4 to attack with that hand only, your main hand is unaffected? Or you could use a total defense action with that hand, losing the ability to attack with your off hand but gaining the AC of total defense while still attacking with your main hand?

Suddenly, TWF is useful even without the "improved" or "greater" options.

It'd be okay in low-op groups, but an extra +2 or +4 to AC (+3 or +6 with Tumble ranks) isn't generally considered valuable; that's basically the same thing as wielding a shield, and we know how that style is generally regarded to stack up in D&D.

I'd say that what would make TWF strong in the style that you propose is it granting essentially Robilar's Gambit, sans drawbacks: for every attack that an enemy makes, you get to take an AoO with your main weapon.

Edit: This does strengthen shields more than straight TWF, since you would also get the shield's bonuses in addition to the offensive benefit, but I have few problems with this. In addition, normal two-weapon fighting would be seen with those who can't be bothered to encumber themselves, those hiding their intentions of combat, those needing to improvise, and those who are worried about needing to get into a grapple.

Both, however, still run into the problem of how one can force the enemy to attack him, particularly when tactical teleportation is taken into consideration.

So, in addition, I'd suggest permitting someone to ready a move action by spending a move action, and allow shoving out of the way as a once/round free action or something, permitting them to intercept enemy movement.

Quietus

2011-05-14, 10:24 AM

I think it's an interesting idea, Talga, but it does raise issues. For example, you can use a shield bash as an off-hand weapon. Even assuming you require TWF feat to use this option, do you get your shield's AC when you take Full Defense with your shield hand? If not, you can still spend a feat on Improved Shield Bash and take the -4 to get the shield bonus plus AC bonus. It's stronger than Dodge, but it's not exactly overpowering, either. Plus it would still penalize your main hand's attack bonus.

I think the problem would be that you'd then carry all the penalties of TWF, but only be using one weapon. Sure, your AC would be higher, which is nice, but you'd have a decided lack of damage, which would hurt.

Mystify

2011-05-14, 11:07 AM

:smallconfused: So, to try to make TWF superior to THF, you are
1.) Gestalting with a Monk, when gestalt is acknowledged to be a high-power variant
2.) Giving him the ability to multiclass, which apparently the THF character lacks
3.) Spending a grand total of seven feats, or all of your class features up to level 12, and comparing it with apparently a Warrior (an NPC class, I'll note), since the THF gets no class features whatsoever
4.) Assuming that every one of his attacks hit, to provide your supposed attack progression
5.) Looking at the game only from level 16 on (since you're now comparing full iterative progressions)
6.) Taking Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, which is considered cheesy by several DMs.
7.) Ignoring the stylistic reasons that most people play a TWF, which does not involve wielding light maces, since maces are associated with strength and endurance, rather than dexterity and skill, like kukris and shortswords.
8.) Ignoring the alignment restrictions of Barbarians and Monks.

You aren't proving the superiority of the fighting style, you're just spending more resources on it, attacking a specific case, making the comparison invalid, and calling yourself the victor.

And no, the Weapon Focus line is not awesome. It is in fact generally acknowledged as suboptimal. Because while you spend all your levels on Fighter and all your feats on the Weapon Focus line, you could be learning to do new things like using sublime maneuvers to actually be able to function when you aren't able to full attack, or just spending your feats on new and better things, like Three Mountains Style. It's only vaguely optimal in a Core-Only game, in which case you aren't getting access to pretty much any of the TWF improvement sources that you've listed. Rage is only considered awesome because it can be gained with a single level in a class with a skill list that doesn't essentially consist of 'lolno,' rather than twelve levels of a class that does have such a skill list.

Edit: The reason, in short, that TWF is generally considered a suboptimal style is that
-it has a lower power ceiling (compare Jack B Quick with Ubercharger)
-it has a lower power floor (compare a random level 1 falchion-wielding barbarian to a level 1 Fighter who spent his feats on Weapon Finesse and TWF, granting him the ability to do 1d6 damage twice, at -2 to hit)
-it is more negatively affected by certain systemic challenges (the difficulty of getting off a full attack, the reach of enemy bruisers, and DR) than two-handed fighting, and starts at a disadvantage

It is therefore regarded as underpowered. This doesn't mean that a viable character can't be made with it. It just means that the majority of characters using TWF will be weaker than the majority of characters using THF.
In my experience, at higher levels, the fighter always hits, easily, with his primary attacks. Becuase the +4 bonus from the weapon spec chain matters. So, with bonuses to hit that high, most of them are exceedingly likely to hit.
And if spirit lion totem is cheesy, then shock trooper is most definitely a huge block of cheese. If you guys are going to invoke stuff like that, so will I. And also, I a)put the barbarian and monk in 2 seperate builds and b)the pounce does not go away if you turn lawful, so you could mix it in with a monk. This is kinda questionable, and I did not actually do this in my example.

And if you are going to invoke style as a reason why that is not a viable build, then I invoke style as a reason not to have an uber charger. Additionally, I have never built a bludgeoning two weapon fighter with maces. It has always been straight up unarmed, or using a quarterstaff or nunchaku or sai or something like that.

As for the weapon focus tree:
A barbarian's major class feature is rage. At level 20, this grants +4 to hit and +6 damage with a two handed weapon, which giving you an AC penalty. A fighter, with a small fraction of his feats, will gain a +4 to hit and a +6 damage for whatever weapon he wants, which can be applied to two weapon fighting. He's also not limited by times per day to get this bonus. In fact, he can do this and still have plenty of feat space to take other things. I think this makes the weapon focus tree pretty strictly better than rage for offense, even before you start invoking the weapon specific abilities. Furthermore, since one of those feats is melee weapon mastery, even if he doesn't have his favored weapon, he can pick up something with the same damage type and get +2 to hit and damage, which is only slightly weaker than a low level barbarian's rage.

And if your character has to be optimized for every last point of damage, yes, you can go with an uber charger. That does not mean that two weapon fighting is a bad choice.

As to me making a build to challenge you, I will do that later, I have to go DM my party.

Greenish

2011-05-14, 11:15 AM

Alright, let's step up and see, Mystify. We'll assume level 12, core-only

Stats will be the elite array, which I believe is 15/14/13/12/10/8.Core-only and elite array are both pretty horrible for melee, though I'm not sure which style suffers more. TWF probably.

Mystify

2011-05-14, 11:20 AM

I only ever use rolled stats. Elite array is awful, you don't even have a 16. Point buy is also idiotic, as all it does in reinforce MAD/SAD distinctions, and discourages interesting characters. Rolled stats gives your character some variety in their off stats, and gives MAD characters a chance to utilize it, while not guaranteeing SAD characters get their perfect stat.

Also, are we sticking with base classes only, or are we going to be comparing the relative prestige class support for each style?

MeeposFire

2011-05-14, 11:28 AM

If prestige class matters then you are copping out of the discussion. You are trying to show how TWF is as good as THF in general. We already acknowledge that there are cases where TWF is optmial such as rogues with sneak attack so we don't need somebody to prove something like that. You need to prove your case on something that the average poster would not believe is better at TWF than THF such as a fighter in this case. Proving TWF is better on a dervish would not prove anything.

Starbuck_II

2011-05-14, 11:45 AM

Al

Stats will be the elite array, which I believe is 15/14/13/12/10/8. I'm not looking for a full build, just the highlights - which feats you buy that primarily support your style, big ticket items, where you place your additional ability points, and a general look at your damage. Anyone else can step in if you like, I'm just laying down a starting point. I'm hardly an optimizer, here. Also, let's assume that we use this chart : http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html
Remember many monsters don't fit that chart: only overall average do they fit (many have lower AC but higher attack or higher attack and AC but lower saves).

Greenish

2011-05-14, 11:47 AM

Alright, let's step up and see, Mystify. We'll assume level 12, core-only, with up to 40% of our WBL spent on weapons - so up to 35,200. We'll assume an opponent of average AC for level 12.

Stats will be the elite array, which I believe is 15/14/13/12/10/8. I'm not looking for a full build, just the highlights - which feats you buy that primarily support your style, big ticket items, where you place your additional ability points, and a general look at your damage. Anyone else can step in if you like, I'm just laying down a starting point.I deviated from core-only just one step, grabbing Revenant Blade from PGtE, since I really like the class.

With ranger7/rb5, using a bog-standard elf, +1 speed/+1 valenar double scimitar, I got 60.25 damage per round without Power Attacking, 62.21 damage per round Power Attacking for 2.

I didn't count in favoured enemies or anything else aside from +4 str item and feats.

This proves… nothing, really, but it was sort of fun.

mykelyk

2011-05-14, 11:47 AM

How does your TWF fare in this comparison, MystifyMykelyk?

I agree with the general idea that twf is a trap, but i think in a core only environment he has a chance to "shine" in a way, so I take up the challenge.

I have 5 normal feats (Lev 1,3,6,9,12), and 7 fighter bonus feat (Lev 1,2,4,6,8,10,12), that a lot of feats.
Lets play a dwarf for the bonus to save, con, counter-trip and nothing really bad.
My build start like your: power attack, ewp spiked chain, improved trip, combat reflexes, ecc.
At higher level however I take ius, twf, itwf.
Array base (15,13,12,14,10,8), racial (15,13,14,14,10,6), +3 lev bonus to str, item +4 str, item +2 dex (just like your build) put me in (22,15,14,14,10,6) just like you (except I have more con and less cha).

I can chose to ignore the twf tree I have the same damage ability of you.

However if I fight an enemy with a substantial lower ac then the norm (because trip, buff, debuff, tactical bonuses), I gain a bigger return over investment on power attack, because I have two more attack that benefit from power attack.
Is it worth? Generally no, but for a single classed core fighter at high level I think it is. Out of core, multiclassing allowed? Hell no.

Greenish

2011-05-14, 11:53 AM

Spiked Chain is not a double weapon.

[Edit]: Even if it were, the offhand end of a double weapon doesn't benefit from PA, since it's a light weapon.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 11:54 AM

I agree with the general idea that twf is a trap, but i think in a core only environment he has a chance to "shine" in a way, so I take up the challenge.

I have 5 normal feats (Lev 1,3,6,9,12), and 7 fighter bonus feat (Lev 1,2,4,6,8,10,12), that a lot of feats.
Lets play a dwarf for the bonus to save, con, counter-trip and nothing really bad.
My build start like your: power attack, ewp spiked chain, improved trip, combat reflexes, ecc.
At higher level however I take ius, twf, itwf.
Array base (15,13,12,14,10,8), racial (15,13,14,14,10,6), +3 lev bonus to str, item +4 str, item +2 dex (just like your build) put me in (22,15,14,14,10,6) just like you (except I have more con and less cha).

I can chose to ignore the twf tree in I have the same damage ability of you.

However if I fight an enemy with a substantial lower ca then the norm (because trip, buff, debuff, tactical bonuses), I gain a bigger return over investment on power attack, because I have two more attack that benefit from power attack.
Is it worth? Generally no, but for a single classed core fighter at high level I think it is. Out of core, multiclassing allowed? Hell no.

You're neglecting the fact that you can't use two-weapon fighting with spiked chain. It's Finesseable, but not a double weapon. Furthermore, any attacks made with a light weapon (including the off-hand end of any double weapon without using Revenant Blade) do not benefit from power attack, but only take the penalty in to-hit rolls.

Greenish, given that you went out of the stipulations of the duel, you're quite right- it proves pretty much nothing.

mykelyk

2011-05-14, 11:55 AM

Spiked Chain is not a double weapon.

[Edit]: Even if it were, the offhand end of a double weapon doesn't benefit from PA, since it's a light weapon.

If you are responding to me, I'm using unarmed strike as off-hand.

Mystify

2011-05-14, 11:56 AM

Greenish

2011-05-14, 11:56 AM

Greenish, given that you didn't post full build (or at least the math behind your conclusion), and still went out of the stipulations of the duel, you're quite right- it proves pretty much nothing.Well, sure, here it is: level 12
vs. AC 23
elite array (15/14/13/12/10/8)
88000 gp, 35200 gp for weapon
15 str, 13 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 10 wis, 8 cha
racial: +2 dex, -2 con
levels +3 str
item +4 str
totals: 22 str, 15 dex, 12 con
attack: 12 (bab) + 6 (str) + 1 (wf) + 1 (magic weapon)
sequence: 18/18/18/13/13/8l
damage 1d6+6(str)+2(ws)+1(enhancement)= average 12.5

1 ranger1: Bladebearer of Valenar
2 ranger2: TWF
3 ranger3: WF: DS
4 ranger4
5 ranger5
6 RB1: Power Attack
7 RB2: Imp. Crit (b), WS: DS (b)
8 RB3: Great Cleave (b)
9 RB4: -
10 RB5
11 ranger6: ITWF
12 ranger7: -

+18 attack vs. AC 23
75% chance to hit
22.5% chance to crit
average damage: (.85x12.5)+(.225x12.5)≈13.4 per hit
three swings for ≈ 40

+13 vs AC 23
50% chance to hit
15% chance to crit
average damage: ≈8
two swings for 16.25

+8 vs AC 23
25% chance to hit
7.5% chance to crit
average damage ≈4
one swing

total damage per round: 60

PA for 2
+16
65% for 16.5
19.5% crit
total 41.83

+11
40%
12% crit
total 17.16

+6
15%
4.5% crit
total 3.22

total damage per round 62.21

[Edit]:
If you are responding to me, I'm using unarmed strike as off-hand.Oh right, missed that IUS there.

mykelyk

2011-05-14, 11:58 AM

You're neglecting the fact that you can't use two-weapon fighting with spiked chain. It's Finesseable, but not a double weapon. Furthermore, any attacks made with a light weapon (including the off-hand end of any double weapon without using Revenant Blade) do not benefit from power attack, but only take the penalty in to-hit rolls.

You missed Improved Unarmed Strike.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 12:00 PM

If you are responding to me, I'm using unarmed strike as off-hand.

Well. That's a bit more interesting. So, you essentially two-hand and then kick? Given that you're essentially both two-handed fighting and two-weapon fighting, I imagine that there might be some niche cases where TWF is useful, yes. Doesn't really demonstrate the superiority of TWF, though, since you're basically trying to get the benefits of both styles. You then need to consider that while you picked up those four feats, your enemy could grab Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack, giving new combat options that probably will be useful more frequently than sometimes getting a kick in.

Greenish

2011-05-14, 12:08 PM

I see. Thank you kindly.:smallsmile: Still outside the parameters, and you didn't actually get the Dexterity required to take the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat. (TWF requires 15 Dex, ITWF requires 17).Rangers get those as bonus feats that ignore prerequisites.

Outside parameters, yeah. Gotta pimp my favourite PrC, you know. :smalltongue:

Quietus

2011-05-14, 12:09 PM

Remember many monsters don't fit that chart: only overall average do they fit (many have lower AC but higher attack or higher attack and AC but lower saves).

... I took all CR 12 monsters in the SRD and built an average AC to aim for for a level 12 challenge. How does the subset of "All monsters in the SRD" leave out many monsters?

Core-only and elite array are both pretty horrible for melee, though I'm not sure which style suffers more. TWF probably.

Sure, but we need somewhere to start from. I could go ahead and say 28/32 point buy, but as Mystify has pointed out below, he doesn't like that, either. I'm open to suggestions, but keep in mind : TWF requires more high stats than THF does. Elite array actually benefits Mystify over a 28 PB, because I can't just pump the two stats I care about and ignore the rest.

I only ever use rolled stats. Elite array is awful, you don't even have a 16. Point buy is also idiotic, as all it does in reinforce MAD/SAD distinctions, and discourages interesting characters. Rolled stats gives your character some variety in their off stats, and gives MAD characters a chance to utilize it, while not guaranteeing SAD characters get their perfect stat.

Also, are we sticking with base classes only, or are we going to be comparing the relative prestige class support for each style?

As mentioned above, I'm open to other suggestions on ability scores. I'd like to see them remain reasonable, however - multiple 18's outside of point buy should be right out. Rolled stats are right out as well, because then we run the possibility that either of us can claim unfair building due to exceptionally good or poor rolls.

I'd like to start with mainly base classes, and give a brief touch on other options - like how I mentioned the potential for Horizon Walker, but didn't rely on it. If you REQUIRE a prestige class to make your point, then whatever, but do note my choice of prestige wasn't for damage, it was for breadth of options. By level 12 I can be using Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds pretty easily, without affecting damage output in the least. I'd love to know what core prestige class you're looking at for TWF support, though - because if we're going outside core, I'm looking at human barbarian6/frenzied berserk6 and increasing my power attack returns, plus other feat support. The reason I kept it within core was to give you a fighting chance, as Spirit Lion Totem, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are off the table.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 12:10 PM

Well, sure, here it is: level 12
vs. AC 23
elite array (15/14/13/12/10/8)
88000 gp, 35200 gp for weapon
15 str, 13 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 10 wis, 8 cha
racial: +2 dex, -2 con
levels +3 str
item +4 str
totals: 22 str, 15 dex, 12 con
attack: 12 (bab) + 6 (str) + 1 (wf) + 1 (magic weapon)
sequence: 18/18/18/13/13/8l
damage 1d6+6(str)+2(ws)+1(enhancement)= average 12.5

1 ranger1: Bladebearer of Valenar
2 ranger2: TWF
3 ranger3: WF: DS
4 ranger4
5 ranger5
6 RB1: Power Attack
7 RB2: Imp. Crit (b), WS: DS (b)
8 RB3: Great Cleave (b)
9 RB4: -
10 RB5
11 ranger6: ITWF
12 ranger7: -

+18 attack vs. AC 23
75% chance to hit
22.5% chance to crit
average damage: (.85x12.5)+(.225x12.5)≈13.4 per hit
three swings for ≈ 40

+13 vs AC 23
50% chance to hit
15% chance to crit
average damage: ≈8
two swings for 16.25

+8 vs AC 23
25% chance to hit
7.5% chance to crit
average damage ≈4
one swing

total damage per round: 60

PA for 2
+16
65% for 16.5
19.5% crit
total 41.83

+11
40%
12% crit
total 17.16

+6
15%
4.5% crit
total 3.22

total damage per round 62.21

[Edit]:Oh right, missed that IUS there.

Thank you kindly. Still outside the parameters, but a nice build nonetheless. Good use of Ranger to get away from the TWF Dexterity prerequisites; that wouldn't have occurred to me.

So, does Revenant Blade grant Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat, or something? I've never actually seen the PrC, I just know it lets you get full Strength bonus to both sides of the double sword.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 12:11 PM

Rangers get those as bonus feats that ignore prerequisites.

Outside parameters, yeah. Gotta pimp my favourite PrC, you know. :smalltongue:

Yeah, I noticed, which is why I ninja-deleted. See my revised post above. I'll try and stop that. I'm used to slower discussions, where I can get away with it.

Quietus

2011-05-14, 12:16 PM

Apparently missed the last page, so :

@Greenish - Fun build, but as noted, outside of core. Soon as we do that I can do a spirit lion whirling frenzy barbarian/frenzied berserker, possibly replace some barbarian with fighter and add shock trooper, and output some REALLY stupid damage.

@mykelyk - interesting, but that doesn't prove the superiority of TWF, it proves that adding both styles together increases options, and potentially damage. I'm not sure whether to give you a win for that or not - it doesn't prove the inherent superiority of TWF, just that it's got interesting applications alongside THF - but I WILL give you a cookie for approaching it in a very neat way. :smalltongue:

Greenish

2011-05-14, 12:17 PM

The reason I kept it within core was to give you a fighting chance, as Spirit Lion Totem, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are off the table.Funny, if we go outside core, TWFer can nab those too. RB or Dragonsplit Master gets about as much mileage out of them as normal chargers.

Though do note that I'm not trying to claim (let alone prove) that TWF is as easy or versatile option as THW, but merely point out that if you want to go for it, it's quite possible to keep up with chargers.

So, does Revenant Blade grant Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat, or something? I've never actually seen the PrC, I just know it lets you get full Strength bonus to both sides of the double sword.Yeah, it's one of the floating bonus feats it gets without needing to qualify. Same for Great Cleave and Imp. Critical.

And RB doesn't just get full strength on both ends of double scimitar, it gets to treat both ends as two-handed weapons, so 2:1 PA returns and 1.5x Str to all attacks.

[Edit]:
@Greenish - Fun build, but as noted, outside of core. Soon as we do that I can do a spirit lion whirling frenzy barbarian/frenzied berserker, possibly replace some barbarian with fighter and add shock trooper, and output some REALLY stupid damage.I can use those same tricks, I'll just have more attacks. :smallwink:

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 12:24 PM

Funny, if we go outside core, TWFer can nab those too. RB or Dragonsplit Master gets about as much mileage out of them as normal chargers.

Though do note that I'm not trying to claim (let alone prove) that TWF is as easy or versatile option as THW, but merely point out that if you want to go for it, it's quite possible to keep up with chargers.
Yeah, it's one of the floating bonus feats it gets without needing to qualify. Same for Great Cleave and Imp. Critical.

And RB doesn't just get full strength on both ends of double scimitar, it gets to treat both ends as two-handed weapons, so 2:1 PA returns and 1.5x Str to all attacks.

[Edit]:I can use those same tricks, I'll just have more attacks. :smallwink:

...I see. RB is a formidable class, indeed. However, I don't think you really have the space in your build to use the same tricks as Quietus.

You have one level that you could burn to get the Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barb dip, but you have no space for Frenzied Berserker, nor any space for the Fighter levels to get as many of the charging feat trains as possible.

Greenish

2011-05-14, 12:42 PM

...I see. RB is a formidable class, indeed. However, I don't think you really have the space in your build to use the same tricks as Quietus.Hmm, I could fit in two levels of Frenzied Berserker, I believe, by using flaws. Not enough for Imp. PA, though, until ECL 15, but I'd have a couple of extra attacks.

[Edit]: Yeah, basic charger feats (PA, Imp. Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack) are pretty easy to fit in, no flaws.

Quietus

2011-05-14, 12:47 PM

Hmm, I could fit in two levels of Frenzied Berserker, I believe, by using flaws. Not enough for Imp. PA, though, until ECL 15, but I'd have a couple of extra attacks.

And no shock trooper, or leap attack. You've locked yourself into Ranger pretty hard with your dex there. You also added crits into your damage calculation, which I didn't bother to do; Note that without factoring in crits, if I simply assume weapon focus/greater weapon focus, I'm already hitting 60.25/turn to your 62, *and I haven't assumed I'm going to crit at all, ever*. Nor have I left core to do it.

::edit:: Where? What are the requirements on whatever of Valenar anyway? I'm assuming EWP and WF double scimitar, based on your build.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 12:50 PM

Hmm, I could fit in two levels of Frenzied Berserker, I believe, by using flaws. Not enough for Imp. PA, though, until ECL 15, but I'd have a couple of extra attacks.

How do you do so? You need all five levels of Revenant Blade to get the capstone of treating each end like a two-handed weapon, I believe, and You need 6 Ranger levels to get the prereq-free Two Weapon Fighting.

I assume that you aren't disputing that you can't get into the feat chains that the more devoted Shock Trooper can get into?

Greenish

2011-05-14, 12:54 PM

And no shock trooper, or leap attack. You've locked yourself into Ranger pretty hard with your dex there.Nah, two levels of ranger for skills and TWF is enough. I can pick ITWF from Gloves of Balanced Hand, and GTWF isn't really worth the effort.

You also added crits into your damage calculation, which I didn't bother to do;Yeah, so I did, since I've a large crit range weapon with Imp. Critical. I only afterwards noticed you'd left them out.

if I simply assume weapon focus/greater weapon focus, I'm already hitting 60.25/turn to your 62, *and I haven't assumed I'm going to crit at all, ever*. Nor have I left core to do it.Good for you. I notice my disclaimer above is incomplete, it should read:

"Though do note that I'm not trying to claim (let alone prove) that TWF is as easy or versatile option as THW, but merely point out that if you want to go for it, it's quite possible to keep up with chargers outside of core."

(I put it on larger, since it seems you missed it or confused me to Mystify or something.)

Speaking of out of Core, I could fit it the FB levels into a Dragonsplit Master build. One-handers get smaller benefits from Imp. PA, but again a couple of attacks helps.

[Edit]:
::edit:: Where? What are the requirements on whatever of Valenar anyway? I'm assuming EWP and WF double scimitar, based on your build.WF: Double Scimitar, TWF, Bladebearer of Valenar and some skills. It's from PGtE, as noted.
How do you do so? You need all five levels of Revenant Blade to get the capstone of treating each end like a two-handed weapon, I believe, and You need 6 Ranger levels to get the prereq-free Two Weapon Fighting.Out of core, I can buy ITWF, as above.

I assume that you aren't disputing that you can't get into the feat chains that the more devoted Shock Trooper can get into?I can get the basic four, maybe some more with flaws. A THW obviously has more freedom with it's feats.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 01:03 PM

Nah, two levels of ranger for skills and TWF is enough. I can pick ITWF from Gloves of Balanced Hand, and GTWF isn't really worth the effort.
Yeah, so I did, since I've a large crit range weapon with Imp. Critical. I only afterwards noticed you'd left them out.
Good for you. I notice my disclaimer above is incomplete, it should read:

"Though do note that I'm not trying to claim (let alone prove) that TWF is as easy or versatile option as THW, but merely point out that if you want to go for it, it's quite possible to keep up with chargers outside of core."

(I put it on larger, since it seems you missed it or confused me to Mystify or something.)

Speaking of out of Core, I could fit it the FB levels into a Dragonsplit Master build. One-handers get smaller benefits from Imp. PA, but again a couple of attacks helps.

[Edit]: WF: Double Scimitar, TWF, Bladebearer of Valenar and some skills. It's from PGtE, as noted.Out of core, I can buy ITWF, as above.
I can get the basic four, maybe some more with flaws. A THW obviously has more freedom with it's feats.

In that case, I'd point out that being a Valenar elf prevents you from being, say, a Half-Orc, which prevents you from picking up a feat that doubles the damage you can deal on a charge. Being from Valenar also prevents you from picking up the Battle Jump feat, which does the same thing.

I can definitely buy that outside of Core, a two-weapon fighter can do sufficient damage (heck, even inside of Core, a TWF Rogue is at least respectable). I don't really think that it can actually maintain parity in raw numbers with a more dedicated charger, though.

Greenish

2011-05-14, 01:10 PM

In that case, I'd point out that being a Valenar elf prevents you from being, say, a Half-Orc, which prevents you from picking up a feat that doubles the damage you can deal on a charge. Being from Valenar also prevents you from picking up the Battle Jump feat, which does the same thing.Well, Battle Jump is FR specific, Revenant Blade Eberron. If the two are available in the same game, it seems that the area prerequisites have been lifted. What was that half-orc feat again?

Anyhow, the usual exotic weapon master can grab those just fine. It's slightly less potent than Revenant Blade, but then again requires much less effort.

I can definitely buy that outside of Core, a two-weapon fighter can do sufficient damage (heck, even inside of Core, a TWF Rogue is at least respectable). I don't really think that it can actually maintain parity in raw numbers with a more dedicated charger, though.Well, as long as we're in the realm of practical optimization, it should be doable. Fully pimped out Hood doing multiple Battle Jumps each turn, übercharger, warhulking hurler, yeah, I don't think you can keep up with those, but then again I'm not such a great optimizer.

letters

2011-05-14, 01:18 PM

HalfDragonCube

2011-05-14, 01:28 PM

Surely anything you have to optimise to make it even usable is bad?

Am I missing something here?:smallconfused:

Greenish

2011-05-14, 01:31 PM

Surely anything you have to optimise to make it even usable is bad?No argument there.

NineThePuma

2011-05-14, 01:35 PM

And RB doesn't just get full strength on both ends of double scimitar, it gets to treat both ends as two-handed weapons, so 2:1 PA returns and 1.5x Str to all attacks.

... That's not standard? :smallconfused:

I thought it was, as my group has always read it that way.

A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

This doesn't change the fact that the weapon is a 2-hander, merely classifies it for twf penalties. Ergo, 1.5x str on both sides.

Mind, I am perfectly aware that this view is apparently not supported by WotC. Just wanted to throw that out there.

Greenish

2011-05-14, 01:47 PM

... That's not standard? :smallconfused:I haven't heard your interpretation before, but I see where you're coming. You wanna toss this one into the RAW thread, or shall I?

Of course, if you play like that, double weapons are actually worth the feat, and Revenant Blade has one of the least useful capstones ever. :smallamused:

[Edit]: Ah, no, PA specifically works as if a double weapon is a one-handed and light weapon, so RB still does something.

NineThePuma

2011-05-14, 01:54 PM

It doesn't matter either way, honestly. It was something that made Double Weapons sexy.

Admittedly, the entire group thought they were underpowered as crap. All the cost of two weapons, but you can get it sundered like a pro, -4/-4 on attacks with them as two weapons, etc.

So we went with that, and made it so that the cost to masterwork both ends was 1.5x normal (instead of double standard) and the cost to enchant both ends with the same thing was 1.5x normal.

But this is an aside and doesn't really have much bearing on the discussion.

Quietus

2011-05-14, 01:55 PM

Surely anything you have to optimise to make it even usable is bad?

Am I missing something here?:smallconfused:

That's... all of melee, really. :smallamused:

@Nine - interesting. I think by RAW you might actually have something there, and I don't have the time to look it up to corroborate or disprove it right now. :smalltongue:

Greenish

2011-05-14, 01:56 PM

All the cost of two weapons, but you can get it sundered like a pro, -4/-4 on attacks with them as two weapons, etc.How'd you end up in -4/-4? They'd have -2/-2 with TWF feat or -4/-8 without the feat, as a one-handed/light combo.

[Edit]: Also, tossed the question to the vicious RAW sharks at the RAW Q&A.

Hehe, "why would we want to find raw sharks?"

NineThePuma

2011-05-14, 01:59 PM

Oh, right, I seem to remember something, somewhere, that let you use two light weapons as -2/-2, main hand with one handed as -4/-4.

Doesn't change my previous statements, but still.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 02:17 PM

Well, Battle Jump is FR specific, Revenant Blade Eberron. If the two are available in the same game, it seems that the area prerequisites have been lifted. What was that half-orc feat again?

Anyhow, the usual exotic weapon master can grab those just fine. It's slightly less potent than Revenant Blade, but then again requires much less effort.
Well, as long as we're in the realm of practical optimization, it should be doable. Fully pimped out Hood doing multiple Battle Jumps each turn, übercharger, warhulking hurler, yeah, I don't think you can keep up with those, but then again I'm not such a great optimizer.

Well, we're starting to get into the realm where PO and TO sort of meet, I think, at the upper end of melee damage builds that could possibly see the light of play.

That said, the feat is Headlong Rush, which is apparently a Forgotten Realms feat, since it's published in Races of Faerun. Coulda sworn that it was in Races of Destiny, but c'est la vie. Apparently which race is favored for this work depends on what world you're in.

That said, the lack of Improved Power Attack does hurt when most of your damage starts coming from Shock Trooper, so I'm not sure how a Revenant Blade stacks up against a dedicated Frenzied Berserker before ECL 15.

Greenish

2011-05-14, 02:32 PM

That said, the lack of Improved Power Attack does hurt when most of your damage starts coming from Shock Trooper, so I'm not sure how a Revenant Blade stacks up against a dedicated Frenzied Berserker before ECL 15.True enough. I might be biased in that I rarely play in campaigns where even a bog standard charger's damage wouldn't be too high.

In FR, the strongest option for TWF would probably be Exotic Weapon Master using Uncanny Blow & Dragonsplits with all the relevant charger feats. That build could enter Frenzied Berserker, but since it already has 2:1 returns from PA, Imp. PA for one-handed weapons (3:2 returns) would just cramp it's style.

Adding in some other sources of damage, say, Craven, IC/DFI or the like might help.

Lans

2011-05-14, 03:45 PM

Yes, but you're ignoring the fact that two-handed weapons have pretty much double the base damage, BEFORE power attack modifiers. So it's the same penalty, but 3 extra points of damage!
You can use a pair of spiked bashing shields for 2d12+2 vs 2d6+8-The 3 pt difference in attack turned into PA. Which is a neat break even point.

Then take improved shield bash, and shield slam so you get two shots at stunning your opponent instead of 1 that a THF would have.

What you're missing is that, as I have demonstrated, you can't just buy two cheaper weapons, because your to-hit is actually lower than the THF'er. You need to spend more on each weapon than he spends on his one single blade just to get to parity.
TWF can save money by using morphic shurikens, which start at about 160 for +1, and 98k for +10.

Don't forget it also increases MAD, unless you're getting the feats for free (ranger) or you have Dex anyway (Rogue).

So that initial statment that fighters can easily pull it off? I don't think so...

A fighter can easily pull it off, due to several twf feats that are awesome. Like Dire Flail Smash.

Greenish

2011-05-14, 04:09 PM

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 04:25 PM

You can use a pair of spiked bashing shields for 2d12+2 vs 2d6+8-The 3 pt difference in attack turned into PA. Which is a neat break even point.

Then take improved shield bash, and shield slam so you get two shots at stunning your opponent instead of 1 that a THF would have.

TWF can save money by using morphic shurikens, which start at about 160 for +1, and 98k for +10.

A fighter can easily pull it off, due to several twf feats that are awesome. Like Dire Flail Smash.

Your first example isn't even, because it's two +1 shields against a mundane greatsword. You're out 2000 gp, plus the cost of whatever enhancement bonus you want your attacks to have, since you need to buy enchantment for both sets of shield spikes, versus the one greatsword's enchantment.

Morphic Shuriken doesn't work, because it requires a thrown or melee weapon. Shuriken are enchanted as ammunition (that's why you can get away with getting so many of them on the cheap). Thus, they are ineligible for the Morphing enchantment.

Finally, Dire Flail Smash requires several feats (which is difficult to work with when you choose a feat-intensive style such as TWF), and the save isn't as difficult to make as it would be for the enemy to make the save against, say, Three Mountains style, since you have to buff both Strength and Dexterity, unless you use Ranger to get out of the Dexterity prerequisites.

Tavar

2011-05-14, 04:30 PM

It's actually two +2 equivalent shields. Remember, all weapons need to have a +1 before they can have other magic added to them. So, 16,000 gp base.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 04:31 PM

It's actually two +2 equivalent shields. Remember, all weapons need to have a +1 before they can have other magic added to them. So, 16,000 gp base.

Well, since the bashing enhancement is on the shield side, which is cheaper to enchant than a weapon, 8000. But yeah, nice catch.:smallredface:

Ernir

2011-05-14, 06:04 PM

...Does anyone still have, lurking somewhere in their favorites, the thread of this where they actually had the table made up that compared things?

No, but I just made one.
This is comparing the skeleton builds of a Weapon Focus line Two-Hand Fighter, Weapon Focus line Two-Weapon Fighter, and a Scimitar Dervish.

I assumed WBL, and a point buy value of 32 (assigned in what I think is the optimal way for each build). I chose the AC value of some monster that I thought should be fairly typical for a CR equal to ECL. I disregarded any possible racial features.
I had all the fighters buy the same kind of weapon enhancements - Flaming and Shock.
I did not account for critical hits, but the Fighter builds use weapons with the same threat range and critical multiplier.

ECL 1:
{table=head]|THF|TWF|Dervish
Average damage per round|7.5|3.6|4
Spare feats|1|0|0
Leftover gold|140|138|129
[/table]
THFer, Fighter 1
BAB +1
STR: 18 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Spare feat [1], Weapon Focus [Fighter 1]
Items: Greataxe, 140GP
Attack bonus: +6
Damage: 1d12+6
Average damage vs. AC 14 (wolf): (6.5+6)*(20-14+6)/20 = 7.5

TWFer, Fighter 1
BAB +1
STR: 12 DEX: 18 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Two-weapon Fighting [1], Weapon Finesse [Fighter 1]
Items: Handaxe x2, 138GP
Attack bonus: +3/+3
Damage: 1d6+1/1d6
Average damage vs. AC 14 (wolf): ((3.5+1)*(20-14+3)/20) + ((3.5)*(20-14+3)/20) = 3.6

Aspiring Dervish, Swashbuckler 1
BAB +1
STR: 14 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Two-weapon Fighting [1], Weapon Finesse [Swashbuckler 1]
Items: Scimitar, Handaxe 129GP
Attack bonus: +2/+2
Damage: 1d6+2/1d6+1
Average damage vs. AC 14 (wolf): ((3.5+2)*(20-14+2)/20) + ((3.5+1)*(20-14+2)/20) = 4
ECL 4:
{table=head]|THF|TWF|Dervish
Average damage per round|12|8.725|9
Spare feats|3|1|0
Leftover gold|3050|2780|2779
[/table]
THFer, Fighter 4
BAB +4
STR: 19 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Spare feat [1], Weapon Focus [Fighter 1], Spare feat [Fighter 2], Spare feat [3], Weapon Specialization [Fighter 4]
Items: Greatsword +1, 3050 GP
Attack bonus: +10
Damage: 2d6+9
Average damage vs. AC 15 (owlbear): (7+9)*(20-15+10)/20 = 12

TWFer, Fighter 4
BAB +4
STR: 12 DEX: 19 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Two-weapon Fighting [1], Weapon Finesse [Fighter 1], Weapon Focus: Shortsword [Fighter 2], Spare feat [3], Weapon Specialization [Fighter 4]
Items: Shortsword +1, Masterwork shortsword, 2780 GP
Attack bonus: +8/+8
Damage: 1d6+4/1d6+2
Average damage vs. AC 15 (owlbear): ((3.5+4)*(20-15+8)/20) + ((3.5+2)*(20-14+8)/20) = 8.725

Aspiring Dervish, Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1
BAB +4
STR: 14 DEX: 17 CON: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Two-weapon Fighting [1], Weapon Finesse [Swashbuckler 1], Dodge [3], Weapon Focus: Scimitar [Fighter 1]
Items: Scimitar +1, Masterwork Handaxe 2779GP
Attack bonus: +7/+6
Damage: 1d6+5/1d6+3
Average damage vs. AC 15 (owlbear): ((3.5+5)*(20-15+7)/20) + ((3.5+3)*(20-14+6)/20) = 9
ECL 6:
{table=head]|THF|TWF|Dervish
Average damage per round|18.4|12.350|16.150
Spare feats|5|2|0
Leftover gold|10650|8380|4620
[/table]
THFer, Fighter 6
BAB +6
STR: 19 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Spare feat [1], Weapon Focus [Fighter 1], Spare feat [Fighter 2], Spare feat [3], Weapon Specialization [Fighter 4], Spare feat [6], Spare feat [Fighter 6]
Items: Greatsword +1, 10650 GP
Attack bonus: +12/+7
Damage: 2d6+9/2d6+9
Average damage vs. AC 18 (ettin): (7+9)*(20-18+12)/20 + (7+9)*(20-18+7)/20 = 18.400

TWFer, Fighter 6
BAB +6
STR: 12 DEX: 19 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Two-weapon Fighting [1], Weapon Finesse [Fighter 1], Weapon Focus: Shortsword [Fighter 2], Spare feat [3], Weapon Specialization [Fighter 4], Spare feat [6], Improved TWF [Fighter 6]
Items: 2x Shortsword +1, 8380 GP
Attack bonus: +10/+10/+5/+5
Damage: 1d6+4/1d6+2/1d6+4/1d6+2
Average damage vs. AC 18 (ettin): ((3.5+4)*(20-18+10)/20) + ((3.5+2)*(20-18+10)/20) + ((3.5+4)*(20-18+5)/20) + ((3.5+2)*(20-18+5)/20) = 12.350

Dervish, Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Dervish 1
BAB +6
STR: 14 DEX: 17 CON: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Two-weapon Fighting [1], Weapon Finesse [Swashbuckler 1], Dodge [3], Weapon Focus: Scimitar [Fighter 1], Combat Expertise [Fighter 2], Mobility [Armor], Improved TWF [6]
Items: 2x Scimitar +1, Chain Shirt of mobility +1, 4620GP
Attack bonus: +10/+10/+5/+5 (with Dervish Dance)
Damage: 1d6+6/1d6+5/1d6+6/1d6+5
Average damage vs. AC 18 (ettin): ((3.5+6)*(20-18+10)/20) + ((3.5+4)*(20-18+10)/20) + ((3.5+6)*(20-18+5)/20) + ((3.5+4)*(20-18+5)/20) = 16.150
ECL 10:
{table=head]|THF|TWF|Dervish
Average damage per round|41.650|41.850|47.5
Spare feats|6|3|0
Leftover gold|33950|24380|20120
[/table]
THFer, Fighter 10
BAB +10
STR: 20 (22) DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Spare feat [1], Weapon Focus [Fighter 1], Spare feat [Fighter 2], Spare feat [3], Weapon Specialization [Fighter 4], Spare feat [6], Spare feat [Fighter 6], Greater Weapon Focus [Fighter 8], Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing [9], Spare feat [Fighter 10]
Items: Flaming Greatsword +1, Strength item +2, 33950 GP
Attack bonus: +21/+16
Damage: 3d6+14/3d6+14
Average damage vs. AC 21 (11-headed hydra): (10.5+14)*(20-21+20)/20 + (10.5+14)*(20-21+16)/20 = 41.650

TWFer, Fighter 10
BAB +10
STR: 12 (14) DEX: 20 (22) CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Two-weapon Fighting [1], Weapon Finesse [Fighter 1], Weapon Focus: Shortsword [Fighter 2], Spare feat [3], Weapon Specialization [Fighter 4], Spare feat [6], Improved Two-Weapon fighting [6], Greater Weapon Focus [Fighter 8], Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing [9], Spare Feat [Fighter 10]
Items: 2x Flaming Shortsword +1, Dex item +2, Strength item +2, 24380GP
Attack bonus: +19/+19/+14/+14
Damage: 2d6+7/2d6+6/2d6+7/2d6+6
Average damage vs. AC 21 (11-headed hydra): ((7+7)*(20-21+19)/20)+((7+6)*(20-21+19)/20)+((7+7)*(20-21+14)/20)+((7+6)*(20-21+14)/20) = 41.850

Dervish, Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Dervish 5
BAB +10
STR: 14 DEX: 18 (20) CON: 14 INT: 14 (16) WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Two-weapon Fighting [1], Weapon Finesse [Swashbuckler 1], Dodge [3], Weapon Focus: Scimitar [Fighter 1], Combat Expertise [Fighter 2], Mobility [Armor], Improved TWF [6], Spring Attack [Dervish 3], Deadly Defense [9]
Items: Items: 2x Flaming Scimitar +1, Dex item +2, Int item +2, Chain Shirt of mobility +1, 20120GP
Attack bonus: +18/+18/+13/+13 (with Dervish Dance)
Damage: 2d6+9/2d6+8/2d6+9/2d6+8
Average damage vs. AC 21 (11-headed hydra): ((7+9)*(20-21+18)/20) + ((7+8)*(20-21+18)/20) + ((7+9)*(20-21+13)/20) + ((7+8)*(20-21+13)/20) = 44.950
Including deadly defense: ((10.5+9)*(20-21+16)/20) + ((10.5+8)*(20-21+16)/20) + ((10.5+9)*(20-21+11)/20) + ((10.5+8)*(20-21+11)/20) = 47.500
ECL 12:
{table=head]|THF|TWF|Dervish
Average damage per round|68.200|74.100|77.550
Spare feats|7|3|0
Leftover gold|53650|31380|27120
[/table]
THFer, Fighter 12
BAB +12
STR: 21 (25) DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Spare feat [1], Weapon Focus [Fighter 1], Spare feat [Fighter 2], Spare feat [3], Weapon Specialization [Fighter 4], Spare feat [6], Spare feat [Fighter 6], Greater Weapon Focus [Fighter 8], Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing [9], Spare feat [Fighter 10], Spare feat [12], Greater Weapon Specialization [Fighter 12]
Items: Flaming Shock Greatsword +1, Strength item +4, 53650 GP
Attack bonus: +24/+19/+14
Damage: 4d6+17/4d6+17/4d6+17
Average damage vs. AC 24 (Roper): (14+17)*(20-24+23)/20 + (14+17)*(20-24+19)/20 + (14+17)*(20-24+14)/20 = 68.200

TWFer, Fighter 12
BAB +12
STR: 12 (14) DEX: 21 (25) CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Two-weapon Fighting [1], Weapon Finesse [Fighter 1], Weapon Focus: Shortsword [Fighter 2], Spare Feat [3], Weapon Specialization [Fighter 4], Spare feat [6], Improved Two-Weapon fighting [6], Greater Weapon Focus [Fighter 8], Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing [9], Spare Feat [Fighter 10], Greater Weapon Specialization [12], Greater Two-Weapon Fighting [Fighter 12]
Items: 2x Flaming Shock Shortsword +1, Dex item +4, Strength item +2, 31380GP
Attack bonus: +22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12
Damage: 3d6+9/3d6+8/3d6+9/3d6+8/3d6+9/3d6+8
Average damage vs. AC 24 (Roper): (10.5+9)*(20-24+22)/20 + (10.5+8)*(20-24+22)/20 + (10.5+9)*(20-24+17)/20 + (10.5+8)*(20-24+17)/20 + (10.5+9)*(20-24+12)/20 + (10.5+8)*(20-24+12)/20 = 74.100

Dervish, Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Dervish 7
BAB +12
STR: 14 DEX: 19 (23) CON: 14 INT: 14 (16) WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Feats: Two-weapon Fighting [1], Weapon Finesse [Swashbuckler 1], Dodge [3], Weapon Focus: Scimitar [Fighter 1], Combat Expertise [Fighter 2], Mobility [Armor], Improved TWF [6], Spring Attack [Dervish 3], Deadly Defense [9], Greater TWF [12]
Items: Items: 2x Flaming Shock Scimitar +1, Dex item +4, Int item +2, Chain Shirt of mobility +1, 27120GP
Attack bonus: +22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12 (with Dervish Dance)
Damage: 3d6+10/3d6+9/3d6+10/3d6+9/3d6+10/3d6+9
Average damage vs. AC 24 (Roper): (10.5+10)*(20-24+22)/20 + (10.5+9)*(20-24+22)/20 + (10.5+10)*(20-24+17)/20 + (10.5+9)*(20-24+17)/20 + (10.5+10)*(20-24+12)/20 + (10.5+9)*(20-24+12)/20 = 74
Including Deadly Defense: (14+10)*(20-24+20)/20 + (14+9)*(20-24+20)/20 + (14+10)*(20-24+15)/20 + (14+9)*(20-24+15)/20 + (14+10)*(20-24+10)/20 + (14+9)*(20-24+10)/20 = 77.550

The builds and calculations are in the spoilers, feel free to find errors, or to complain about the assumptions or build decisions I made (in the interest of accuracy, ONE at a time, please).

My conclusion is that while a mid-level TWF build can easily keep up with (and surpass) a THFing build, but in order to maintain its status it must lose on the fronts of flexibility with respect to both feats and GP.

What would happen should the THFer spend the same amount of resources on his offense as the TWFer and Dervish do is left as an exercise to the reader.

Seerow

2011-05-14, 06:24 PM

So a TWF build with all of its focus going into that beats out a THF build that -doesn't even have power attack-, and its only feats as Weapon Focus/Spec

Is anyone honestly surprised by this?

Honestly the only surprise for me is how close it is. That should pretty much seal TWF as being terrible.

NineThePuma

2011-05-14, 06:26 PM

Yeah, I'll pick up a pair of kukri when I want to, but that's kinda ridiculous...

Lans

2011-05-14, 11:19 PM

Your first example isn't even, because it's two +1 shields against a mundane greatsword. You're out 2000 gp, plus the cost of whatever enhancement bonus you want your attacks to have, since you need to buy enchantment for both sets of sh.ield spikes, versus the one greatsword's enchantment. It was against a +2 greatsword, the costs are identical

Morphic Shuriken doesn't work, because it requires a thrown or melee weapon. Shuriken are enchanted as ammunition (that's why you can get away with getting so many of them on the cheap). Thus, they are ineligible for the Morphing enchantment.
Shuriken's are thrown weapons, thus eligable for Morphing, unless theirs a shuriken launcher somewhere.

Finally, Dire Flail Smash requires several feats (which is difficult to work with when you choose a feat-intensive style such as TWF), and the save isn't as difficult to make as it would be for the enemy to make the save against, say, Three Mountains style, since you have to buff both Strength and Dexterity, unless you use Ranger to get out of the Dexterity prerequisites.

Its a difference of 1 or 2 at the most, and fighters have enough feats for it.

Divide by Zero

2011-05-14, 11:24 PM

Shuriken's are thrown weapons, thus eligable for Morphing, unless theirs a shuriken launcher somewhere.

"Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown."

Magic shuriken fall under "otherwise special," I'm pretty sure.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 11:28 PM

It was against a +2 greatsword, the costs are identical

Shuriken's are thrown weapons, thus eligable for Morphing, unless theirs a shuriken launcher somewhere.

Its a difference of 1 or 2 at the most, and fighters have enough feats for it.

In the first case, I was assuming that you were using a 14 Strength fighter as your comparison or something. If you were using pure weapon enchantments, then I am afraid that your math is incorrect. Bashing is a Shield enchantment, not a weapon enchantment. As such, you are boosting it as a shield. A +1 shield does not count as a +1 weapon. It adds +1 to AC, rather than attack and damage. Thus, you pay to get the bashing enchantment, getting a small boost to AC in the process, and have to pay another 2000 per shield to get the +1 enchantment. Still 4000 gp (and 2 to your to-hit roll) inferior to the THF.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#shuriken

Shuriken

A shuriken is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding shuriken special options. A shuriken can’t be used as a melee weapon.

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.

In short, in the second case, you are simply wrong. A magic weapon is certainly 'a special version' of a shuriken. Ergo, it is crafted as ammunition. Again, that is why it is so cheap.

I'll note, however, that even if you could use this trick, the THF could do the same thing, and would require half the number of morphic shurikens.

In the third case, it is in fact a substantially larger difference, save perhaps at the levels it is first acquired at. You have to spend quite a few resources to get to 19 Dex, which you need to be a full two-weapon fighter sans Ranger levels. And the fact that you have many feats does not make spending feats cease to be a cost, until such time as you have literally infinite feats.

Greenish

2011-05-14, 11:31 PM

A +1 shield does not count as a +1 weapon.But a +1 Bashing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#bashing) shield does.

Sucrose

2011-05-14, 11:32 PM

But a +1 Bashing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#bashing) shield does.

Hm. I stand corrected, then. The only differences are the AC bonus from one of the shields, and the flexibility of how much to power attack for that the THF possesses. For a case where the TWF gets twice as many attacks as the THF, anyway (thus discounting cases where AoOs are available, or the fighters need to charge into combat, or they are Hasted, or...)

Lans

2011-05-14, 11:56 PM

On second thought he could just buy1 shield and THF it, and roll 4k into a strength boost.

Edit- Also the THF had a better crit.

On Dire flail smash- Its looses its effectiveness later on, for that reason.

Shuriken-I'll look more into

Seerow

2011-05-15, 12:05 AM

On second thought he could just buy1 shield and THF it, and roll 4k into a strength boost.

Wait you can THF a shield? That's funny ****.

Mystify

2011-05-15, 12:22 AM

Wait you can THF a shield? That's funny ****.

A heavy sheild counts as a one handed weapon, and you can two-hand a one handed weapon. I made a character once that two-handed his spiked bashing sheild. It actually gives impressive base damage. Esp. if you decide to get oversized weapon fighting (or strongarm bracers, or be a goliath) to be using a large sheild that hits like a colossal weapon. While still granting sheild bonus. Fun times.

Quietus

2011-05-16, 09:35 AM

A heavy sheild counts as a one handed weapon, and you can two-hand a one handed weapon. I made a character once that two-handed his spiked bashing sheild. It actually gives impressive base damage. Esp. if you decide to get oversized weapon fighting (or strongarm bracers, or be a goliath) to be using a large sheild that hits like a colossal weapon. While still granting sheild bonus. Fun times.

Just to poke a potentially dead horse - were you intending to actually step up and show how your TWFer can outdo my THFer? Or are we considering that officially dead?

Malkav

2011-05-16, 10:25 AM

A lot of it is opportunity cost.

Hurray for Economics.

Oh, A fighter that worships Kord, uses a Large Greatsword with monkey grip, and goes into Divine Crusader and chooses competition domain, and uses righteous might and divine power will rape a dervish all night.

Mystify

2011-05-16, 11:14 AM

How about you actually give me a concrete build to compete against? You have a lot of "I could"s in there without any clear indication of how they would fit together.I'm going to have to show precisely how my feats fit together, and I expect you to do likewise.

And I'm still protesting the elite array. I'd expect any real character to at least have 1 sixteen, probably an 18 and a 16 if they are lucky. I am willing to admit that two weapon fighting is weakened more by low stats. If I did roll something equivalent to the elite array I wouldn't try to make a two weapon fighter with it. Point-buy only gives the illusion of fairness, all it does is exacurbate MAD/SAD discrepecies. I'm willing to use standardized stats, but at least give me a decent array.

I'd also like clarication on what classes/feats/etc are valid.

Lans

2011-05-16, 11:57 AM

In short, in the second case, you are simply wrong. A magic weapon is certainly 'a special version' of a shuriken. Ergo, it is crafted as ammunition. Again, that is why it is so cheap.Does morphic prohibit it from being put onto ammunition? Otherwise I would say that you can still use it. It is still a thrown weapon, and nothing in the description of ammo says that they can't be thrown.

I'll note, however, that even if you could use this trick, the THF could do the same thing, and would require half the number of morphic shurikens.

You don't get any benefits from THF with a light weapon, and it might be illegal.

Greenish

2011-05-16, 12:10 PM

I'm willing to use standardized stats, but at least give me a decent array.How about 16/16/14/12/10/8?

It's equal to 32 pb, but you can't tank mental stats to get that 18, though that'd be silly anyhow. But lets not go into pb vs. rolling, now.

I'd also like clarication on what classes/feats/etc are valid.This far, it's been core (PHB, DMG, MM) only. If you want to expand on it, sure, all 1st party sounds doable too.

And lets throw in the stipulation that custom magic items are banned, lest this devolves into silliness.

Does morphic prohibit it from being put onto ammunition?Yes, it requires melee or thrown weapons.

You don't get any benefits from THF with a light weapon, and it might be illegal.Yeah, you can't two-hand a light weapon.

Mystify

2011-05-16, 12:23 PM

It is not reasonable to allow a +10 weapon to be made for 4007gp because you are morphing it from a shuriken. I don't know where the 98k came from, since a +10 weapon costs 200k, and that price is for 50 shuriken, which is 4k each. Even if it is RAW, you should be slapped for even considering such a thing seriously, or using it as a point in a actual balance arguement.

Mystify

2011-05-16, 12:27 PM

How about 16/16/14/12/10/8?

It's equal to 32 pb, but you can't tank mental stats to get that 18, though that'd be silly anyhow. But lets not go into pb vs. rolling, now.
This far, it's been core (PHB, DMG, MM) only. If you want to expand on it, sure, all 1st party sounds doable too.

And lets throw in the stipulation that custom magic items are banned, lest this devolves into silliness.

16/16/14/12/10/8 seems reasonable to me.
I'd like to add player handbook II to the list of allowed books

Greenish

2011-05-16, 12:50 PM

I'd like to add player handbook II to the list of allowed booksOn what basis?

Limiting the books somewhere between "core-only" and "all splats" is the usual case in real games, yeah, but if we were to make the comparison valid (not that it'd still mean anything, but eh), we need to make sure that the splats picked favour neither of the styles over the other.

Or we could just run with it, I guess. I picked a splat with maybe the best TWF PrC and very little for THW. :smalltongue:

Mystify

2011-05-16, 01:16 PM

I just consider player's handbook II to be more core since its a players handbook, and absolutely essential for any fighter builds I do. A lot of my assumptions are based on accessing PHII content. Such as when I said the weapon specilization tree is good. The core one isn't, the extended one in PHII is. It boosts weapon specilization,spring attack, AC based fighters, reach weapons, monks, flankers...
I'll still try if we stick to core, but I have much less confidence in my sucess. Its not that there is some magic feat in there that makes everything work, it just has numerous bonuses I like to stack together. Two weapon fighting is all about the bonuses, which are very sparse in core.

Sucrose

2011-05-16, 01:25 PM

Does morphic prohibit it from being put onto ammunition? Otherwise I would say that you can still use it. It is still a thrown weapon, and nothing in the description of ammo says that they can't be thrown.

You don't get any benefits from THF with a light weapon, and it might be illegal.

Valid point on the second part. On the first, it is ammunition instead of being a thrown weapon. It is impossible for it to be both thrown and ammunition simultaneously wrt drawing speed, crafting, and so on. Otherwise, you are drawing it as both a move action and a free action, and crafting it at both normal weapon prices and 1/50th normal weapon prices. It makes no sense. It is therefore clear that it is ammunition to the exclusion of being a thrown weapon.

Edit: Mystify, PHB II clearly favors TWF over THF. If you get a splatbook outside of core, it's only fair that the THF gets one as well.

Core is simply the basic set of books needed to play Dungeons and Dragons: the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual. PHB II, MMII-V, and so on, are not any more Core than Tome of Battle.

Lans

2011-05-16, 01:33 PM

Yes, it requires melee or thrown weapons.

That doesn't exclude it, it just means that the ammunition has to be a melee or thrown weapon.

Mystify

2011-05-16, 01:33 PM

Alright, I'll allow a splat book to be included for THF.

Ernir

2011-05-16, 01:34 PM

How about you actually give me a concrete build to compete against?

Can you list the problems you have with the comparison I made?

Sucrose

2011-05-16, 01:39 PM

That doesn't exclude it, it just means that the ammunition has to be a melee or thrown weapon.

Thinking on it a bit further: it is nowhere stated that shuriken are light weapons. They are simply 'ranged.' If Morphic were applicable, you might therefore be able to make them into a Net, but they cannot become handaxes, or something like that, because they are not light weapons, and therefore cannot become light weapons, since they can only turn into weapons of their size and type.

Mystify

2011-05-16, 01:51 PM

Can you list the problems you have with the comparison I made?
Your comparison was decent, but part of the issue becomes how you utilize those spare feats you left in. You showed that the skeleton is competive, it has to also show that the sacrifices you make to get it can pay off.

Thinking on it a bit further: it is nowhere stated that shuriken are light weapons. They are simply 'ranged.' If Morphic were applicable, you might therefore be able to make them into a Net, but they cannot become handaxes, or something like that, because they are not light weapons, and therefore cannot become light weapons, since they can only turn into weapons of their size and type.
I was considering that, but that reasoning allows them to turn into javelins.

Edit: We should also consider how the dynamic changes if we have a buffer (or more) in the party. I assert that TWFs improve significantly more than a THFs under the unfluence of buffs. Especially Artificers. Especially when said artificers know what bane to use. Duel-weilding appropriately baned weapons is pretty devestating.

Any generic offensive buffs that boost you in general get double utility with a TWF, there is no reduction of Defensive buffs, and in many cases a weapon specific buff can be applied twice. Stuff like a bard's music or a dragon shamans's damage aura work wonderfully. If you can get a high-charisma marshal to put out a flanking bonus aura, then you can pour on the damage.

Admittedly a THF gets more out of haste, but in the case where they can utilize its full benefit(i.e. ful rounding), a TWF is in their element, and they aren't too shabby being hasted either. In combat weapon buffs are also more effective on the THF. If you have a double weapon(hint: a fighter should have a double weapon. 2 light weapons are for rouges, double weapons are for fighters), then you can revert to 2 handing it to leverage certain buffs, like ghost touch or brillant energy, that increase accuracy. Otherwise you can deal the buff's effects just as well as the THF with your primary weapon, so its the same bonus on either one. If the THF is power attacking for more than -2(which you guys seem prone to do), the TWF actually gets more since they are more accurate.

A marshal giving a charge bonus seems great for a charger, but two weapon pounce gets even more out of it, and using two weapon rend, this actually closes the gap between the THF and TWF in a charge.

Why you want a double weapon: it has no disadvantage to weilding it compared to 2 individual weapons, they can get larger base damage die, and most importantly, you can 2-hand one end as you need to. Hence, when you charge, you can 2 hand a power attack. Then switch to dual weilding when you get a chance for a full round. You can get 2 special materials built on it, so when you need one of them it is right there to attack with. You don't have to wrory about drawing it, and since its your primary weapon its enchanted well. It also lets you get get weapon spec. on both hands without taking 2 light weapons. If you assume a fighter should have a complete set of special materials(silver, cold iron, and adamantine), then the base cost of getting an enchanted one of each is the same either way. I generally go with adamantine and cold iron since neither has a drawback beyond the cost, and adamantine has more general uses. Silver has -1 damage, so it gets put on the secondary weapon. This arrangement can be changed if you have other knowledge of the types of DR you are likely to be facing.
It is also unclear if you can mix the two within a round. If you say yes, then you may be able to do two weapon strikes on your full round, then strike as a two handed weapon for AoO. If this is the case, you would still take the -2 for two weapon fighting, but get mroe damage. Looking at the rules for two weapon fighting and double weapons, it never says. It only says that if you use it in one hand you can only use one end. Since it is ambigous, it would be up to the DM.
Rouges like the 2 weapon option, since they a) don't have much stake in using the same weapon in each hand and b) like finesse a lot more. This allows a dagger/rapier type setup, which rouges like, and is more in tune with rouge stereotypes.

Mystify

2011-05-16, 09:33 PM

ok, here are my builds.

1. straight fighter, as per the competition, using only PHII as extra material

wood elf
1 exotic weapon mastery (dire flail) weapon focus(d. flail)
2 2 weapon fighting
3 power attack
4 weapon spec
5
6 improved 2 weapon, cleave
7
8 weapon mastery(bludge)
9 greater weapon focus
10 improved critcal
11
12 greater weapon spec, greater 2 weapon fighting
(would take crushing strike at 14)

(2 in str, 1 in dex)
str 20+4=24
dex 19
con 12
int 10
wis 10
char 8

88k
dire flail:+3 32k(acid+fire/electricity+cold)
guantlets of str:+4 16k
belt of battle:12k
chain shirt: +2: 4k
ring of protect+2: 8k
amulet of nat arm+2: 8k
cloak of resist +2: 4k
2x crystal of energy assault(acid/electricty) 6k
anklet of translocation: 1.4k

attack: 22/22/17/17/12/12
damage: 1d8+3d6+11(+4 on primary hand)

AC: 24, touch 16, flat footed 20

This one can easily use their weapon THF or TWF. You could swap the cleaves for better feats. Perfectly capable of opening with a charging power attack, with all associated benefits, then follow up with viscous full rounds. anklet of translocation helps give them some mobility.

so we have 75%/75%/50%/50%/25%/25% chance to hit, and 30 and 26 damage per hit depending on hand, yeilding 22.5+19.5+15+13+7.5+6.5=84 damage per round, taking out over half a monster's health. AC offers some mild protection against high attack monsters, and about 50% protection against low attack monsters. 84 damage in a round is pretty solid, and you would not feel useless with this build.

Mainly I felt that this was lacking feats. By which I mean feats to take that were worthwhile, hence belying the notion that it takes too many feats, at least with the limited selection pool. Level 14 would allow him to take crushing strike, which would improve the accuracy. I would probably drop out of fighter at this point and find something else to boost its power, since its pretty much tapped out everything it can get here.

Breaking away from the strict limits of the competition, a dervish build for comparison

Human Dervish
1 fighter combat expertise, dodge, mobility
2 fighter weapon focus(schimitar)
3 scout/rouge two weapon fighting
4 fighter
5 fighter weapon spec
6 dervish, imrpoved two weapon
7 dervish
8 dervish
9 dervish weapon mastery(slashing)
10 dervish
11 dervish
12 dervish two weapon rend

dervish dance 4/day
movement mastery
fast movement +10
dance of death
+4 attack/damage
spring attack
cleave(while dancing)
+2 init

Attack: 24/24/19/19/14
damage: 1d6+16+3d6+(1d6) (+3 on primary hand)

1d6+9 1/enemy/round

(1 bump in dex, 2 in str)
str 18+4=22
dex 17
con 12
int 14
wis 10
char 8

88k
schimitars:+3 32k(acid+fire/electricity+cold)
guantlets of str:+4 16k
belt of battle:12k
chain shirt +2: 4k
ring of protect+2: 8k
amulet of nat arm+2: 8k
cloak of resist +2: 4k
2x crystal of energy assault(acid/electricty) 6k
skirmisher boots: 3.2k

AC: 25, touch 19, flat footed 22

This one has 36.5 and 33.5 average damage per hit, with an extra 1d6+9 once per round per enemy.

85%/85%/60%/60%/35% = 124 damage per round, plus 12.5 from rend. Taking greater 2 weapon fighting instead of rend increases the damage by an expected 11.75, putting it on par with the rend once you consider the chance that you don't hit with one of the weapons is 6%, making the expected rend damage 11.75. However, since it is possible to rend multiple enemies in a round, I went with rend. This gives a total damage.round of 129.5, which would leave the enemy looking pretty shakey.
accounting for crits, 3 have a 15% chance of rolling a threat each attack, all of which would hit, giving the accuracy bands. This means the chance to confirm is the same as the chance to hit initially, so we can expect a 15% damage increase from crits, (I don't have improved critical in there at this level) raising the expected damage to 149.5, just shy of the expected 160 hp. There is a good chance it would be able to drop an enemy in a round.

Doug Lampert

2011-05-16, 09:40 PM

ok, here are my builds.

1. straight fighter, as per the competition, using only PHII as extra material
[SPOILER]
wood elf
1 exotic weapon mastery (dire flail) weapon focus(d. flail)
2 power attack
3 cleave
4 weapon spec
5
6 improved 2 weapon, great cleave
7
8 weapon mastery(bludge)
9 greater weapon focus
10 improved critcal
11
12 greater weapon spec, greater 2 weapon fighting
(would take crushing strike at 14)

I'm not involved in your little contest, but did I perhaps miss where your two weapon fighter above actually TOOK the basic two weapon fighting feat? He's got improved and greater, but no actual two weapon fighting and no spare feat to take it unless he drops great cleave or something.

NineThePuma

2011-05-16, 09:46 PM

I...

Huh?

That build, unless I'm mistaken, can't even dual wield Dire Flails!

Mystify

2011-05-16, 09:54 PM

Whoops. Shove the power attack tree forward a notch and stick 2 weapon fighting in the hole. Its not like great cleave was expected to be useful.

NineThePuma

2011-05-16, 09:54 PM

How the CARP are you wielding Dire Flails?

(Not a typo. Ask a dwarf fortress player)

Mystify

2011-05-16, 10:05 PM

"Flail, Dire

A dire flail is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a dire flail in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon— only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

When using a dire flail, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an enemy (including the opposed attack roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails).

You can also use this weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the dire flail to avoid being tripped."
Its a double weapon that can trip and is good at disarming.

If I used more sourcebooks and had the inclination, I could have him swinging around a large bastard sword and a huge bastard sword. Players are not happy when a dwarf starts mauling them with giant weapons.

NineThePuma

2011-05-16, 10:06 PM

Source plz

Mystify

2011-05-16, 10:09 PM

Its right on the D20 srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#flailDire)

NineThePuma

2011-05-16, 10:09 PM

Ah. Okay. That's... hmm... Yeah, you know what?

Why do you need PHB II?

Mystify

2011-05-16, 10:12 PM

Weapon mastery. I love weapon mastery.

Mystify

2011-05-16, 11:00 PM

Ok, everyone has been saying that power attach is sooo important, and its the best source of damage in the game. Well, if you can negate the penalty *couch*shocktrooper*cough*, yes. However, you don't need a lot of base damage for the extra accuracy to pay off.
I've been playing around in excel. If you need a certain amount to hit an enemy, and power attack to any degree, what is your expected damage output. So I am looking at these generated damage outputs. Lets assume a very modest base damage per hit of 20. My TWF hit harder than that, so this is a low estimate. If you will hit one your last attack with a 2, then it is beneficial to power attack. To -10. That will raise your expected damage from 76 to 122. This is you wailing on something with ridiculously low AC, but not so much that you still hit constantly while power attacking at full. If your base damage is 40, which is probably the more accurate case, it is still best to do 019, but it only takes you from 152 to 183. 19 point increase. for the entire round. This is the ridiculously best case apart from "can't miss", where power attacking is extremely powerful.

Now lets say that your first 2 hits will hit on a 2. This is an enemy you don't have any trouble hitting. Sounds like a great place to power attack, right? Well, -5 is the best power attack. Base damage of 20 again, this raises your damage from 61 to 69. For the entire round. Not exactly an overwhelming increase. If you have a base damage of 40, you are actually better off not power attacking, since the extra hits count for a lot more than a damage increase. Even if you only have a 30 damage, a -3 power attack raises your expected damage from 92.8 to 93.6. You are getting less than a 1hp increase. Its pointless.

If you hit on a +2 on your first attack only, then the 20 damage per hit guy only gains .2 damage at best, and that is at a -1.

So it is clear, power attacking full rounds is not the key to damage output.

So what about charging?

First, lets assume no leap attack. 1 hit only. If you have more than that, you are full rounding with a higher attack bonus.

If you hit on a 2 with 20 points of damage, you can increase your expected damage from 19 to 21 by taking a -4 or -5. If your base damage is 30, a -2 takes you from 28.5 damage to 28.9. And you spent a feat on this!

Ok, now lets try leap attack. Its twice the payback.

Now the 20 damage hit goes from 19 damage to 28.8 with a -7. Almost 10 points, not bad. That could be worthwhile.

now the 30 damage hit goes from 28.5 to 35.1 with a -6. A 6 point increase. Ok. Thats something.

The 40 point hitter goes from 38 to 42 with a -4. 4 extra points. For 2 feats. What other 2 feats gives a +4 damage? oh right, weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization. Those silly, underpowered, suboptimal feats. And those feats work on every hit, not just this leap attack.
-------------------------
tl;dr Power attack is not that impressive. Yeah, it can increase your damage output, but only slightly. Its not the majority of the damage by any stretch. Even if you spend 2 feats on it, its utility is not amazing, and just fades as your base attack improved.

Greenish

2011-05-16, 11:10 PM

Core is simply the basic set of books needed to play Dungeons and Dragons: the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual. PHB II, MMII-V, and so on, are not any more Core than Tome of Battle.That reminds me, should we drop the interesting systems (casting, manifesting, ToB, MoI etc.) from the comparison? It's harder to calculate average dpr for ToB, say, or psychic warrior whose performance is often derived from non-whole day buffs.

That doesn't exclude it, it just means that the ammunition has to be a melee or thrown weapon.You asked if there's something that prevents Morphing from being applied to ammunition, I pointed out that yes, there is. Whether Shuriken count as thrown/light weapons for the purpose of enchanting them while also counting as ammunition for the purpose of enchanting them is something I shan't comment on.

[Edit]:
Edit: We should also consider how the dynamic changes if we have a buffer (or more) in the party. I assert that TWFs improve significantly more than a THFs under the unfluence of buffs. Especially Artificers. Especially when said artificers know what bane to use. Duel-weilding appropriately baned weapons is pretty devestating.Of course, you don't always have several minutes time to buff after spotting an enemy. Buffs that add static damage per hit favour TWF, buffs that grant extra attacks favour THW. I should think it easier if we discount buffs for now.

Mystify

2011-05-16, 11:22 PM

The difference in damage between a one handed attack and a 2 handed attack is only 1/2 str, and a bit of base damage die. Is it an edge? Yes. It is that huge of an edge? Not compared to the rest of the attack.

Quietus

2011-05-17, 08:25 AM

1. straight fighter, as per the competition, using only PHII as extra material

wood elf
1 exotic weapon mastery (dire flail) weapon focus(d. flail)
2 2 weapon fighting
3 power attack
4 weapon spec
5
6 improved 2 weapon, cleave
7
8 weapon mastery(bludge)
9 greater weapon focus
10 improved critcal
11
12 greater weapon spec, greater 2 weapon fighting
(would take crushing strike at 14)

(2 in str, 1 in dex)
str 20+4=24
dex 19
con 12
int 10
wis 10
char 8

88k
dire flail:+3 32k(acid+fire/electricity+cold)
guantlets of str:+4 16k
belt of battle:12k
chain shirt: +2: 4k
ring of protect+2: 8k
amulet of nat arm+2: 8k
cloak of resist +2: 4k
2x crystal of energy assault(acid/electricty) 6k
anklet of translocation: 1.4k

attack: 22/22/17/17/12/12
damage: 1d8+32d6+11(+4 on primary hand)

AC: 24, touch 16, flat footed 20

This one can easily use their weapon THF or TWF. You could swap the cleaves for better feats. Perfectly capable of opening with a charging power attack, with all associated benefits, then follow up with viscous full rounds. anklet of translocation helps give them some mobility.

so we have 75%/75%/50%/50%/25%/25% chance to hit, and 30 and 26 damage per hit depending on hand, yeilding 22.5+19.5+15+13+7.5+6.5=84 damage per round, taking out over half a monster's health. AC offers some mild protection against high attack monsters, and about 50% protection against low attack monsters. 84 damage in a round is pretty solid, and you would not feel useless with this build.

Mainly I felt that this was lacking feats. By which I mean feats to take that were worthwhile, hence belying the notion that it takes too many feats, at least with the limited selection pool. Level 14 would allow him to take crushing strike, which would improve the accuracy. I would probably drop out of fighter at this point and find something else to boost its power, since its pretty much tapped out everything it can get here.

I'm only going to look at this one, for now, I'll address your Dervish later - using precisely the same number of splat books that you have, and the same increased stat options. Note in the spoiler that I've crossed out the Magic Item Compendium boosts, as you're already breaking the bounds of the competition by using PHB2 material and a stronger stat line. You've also used Monster Manual material in the form of Wood Elf, which I generally frown upon in my games, but since this is a competition of sort rather than a game..

24 strength = +7 mod, +1 from your magic flail, +4 weapon focus/mastery, -2 TWF, and +12 base, makes for +22 attack bonus. Full attack is at 95%/70%/45% for each hand. Primary hand is at 1d8+2d6+14 damage (25.5 average), off-hand is at 1d8+2d6+12 damage (23.5 average). Very solid start. Each hand deals 210% damage, so 25.5*2.1 + 23.5*2.1 = 53.55+49.35 = 102.9 average damage. Not bad at all. Putting your MIC items back in would raise this by approximately 15 average. Note that I haven't included critical possibility in this; I'll continue to use a spiked chain and take Improved Critical so that our critical damage and range match, making their relative effects on our average damage the same.

So, to revisit my build and use the exact same sources you have :

Full-blooded Orc, 2 stat increases to strength, 1 to int. Final score totals :
Str 22 (26)
Dex 12 (16)
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 8
Cha 6

Feats :
1) Exotic Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
1) Combat Reflexes
2) Power Attack
3) Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
4) Combat Expertise
6) Improved Trip
6) Weapon Specialization
8) Melee Weapon mastery (Piercing)
9) Greater Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
10) Improved Critical (Spiked Chain)
12) Greater Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain)
12) Improved Sunder

Items :
+1 Spiked Chain of Speed : 32,325 GP (If you get your least crystals, I get Adamantine here)
Belt of Giant Strength +4 : 16,000 GP
Gloves of Dexterity +4 : 16,000 GP
+1 Full Plate : 2650 GP
Ring of Protection +2 : 8,000 GP
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 : 8,000 GP
Cloak of Protection +2 : 4,000 GP

Total : 86,975, under 88k, which was the limit. You spent 92k, but you're under that once striking the MIC stuff. So, let's look at what using the same sources and advantages as you has done to my damage, shall we?

Attack bonus : +8 from strength, +1 weapon, +4 feats, +12 base, making for a total of +25 to hit. So, in the interest of fairness, I'll assume I power attack for 3, to make our attack bonuses equal.

Attack sequence is +22/+22/+17/+12, or 95%/95%/70%/45%. Each hit does 2d4+25 damage (12 strength, 1 weapon, 6 feats, 6 power attack), or an average of 30. I do 305% damage, so that's 91.5 average damage. In this case, yes, you have the advantage - the static bonuses applied here don't benefit the TWF as much, and rather than looking for another source of Power Attack increase (say, leap attack for charging benefits?), I simply used the same source, and indeed many of the same FEATS, as you did. In exchange for slightly lower damage output, however, I'm packing the option to trip, sunder, and can throw three attacks of opportunity each round at reach. This means that where you spent three feats to get 10 extra damage per round... I've gained *options*. Plus, nothing is outright immune to part of my damage. As soon as something with any elemental resistance/immunity shows up, damage swings back into my favor. If we are gauging strictly by damage output, then yes, TWF wins slightly, but if we're looking at the character's usefulness as a whole, I'd give the nod to the battlefield control build that can snap the TWFer's weapon with a single attack.

As to the dervish and such : I'll look at that later.

Mystify

2011-05-17, 09:10 AM

If we are removing the anklets of teleportation I would be rearranging the items to get boots of speed, which gives me haste for 10 rounds, effectively matching and surpassing the bonus you get for speed, since it also comes with accuracy. My primary hand hits nearly as hard as your's does, so this extra attack leaps me ahead of you in damage, energy resistance or no.

I'm also in light armour, giving me more mobility. Also, when I am charging(which I can do from further away), I am not taking 2 weapon penalties and can power attack, and if leap attack is on the table I would have that as well. This also gives me strength and a half, putting my damage up to 33 on that hit. Your 3 attacks of opportunity per round are limited by your full plate. If we are in daylight, you are taking a -1 to attack, putting our accuracy on par.

You have options, but they are silly options. Sundering is awful, and you can't even do it with a spiked chain. A spiked chain is piercing, you can inly sunder with slashing or bludgeoning. Tripping is not as bad, but very hard to make work at this level, esp. since you only have one feat going into it, so the enemies likely have a size,str, and BaB advantage most of the time.

So there is nothing here that makes me clearly inferior, and once I adapt my equipment appropriately I'd have a significant edge in damage. My advantage would continue to increase as I leveled.

So even if you do sunder my weapon(which you can't, since you are using peircing), you have destroyed 16k worth of loot. If you are doing this regularly, you will be well below the EWL.

So my fighter is clearly competent and capable of operating on-level in a comparable manner to your build. Why was two weapon fighting such a bad idea?

Quietus

2011-05-17, 09:30 AM

First : My AoO's are in no way limited by my armor. That affects only my dex bonus to AC, not my dex bonus to anything else.

Regarding sunder : You're right. Replace that with cleave, or alternatively, I can pick up a glaive. Or if I want to give up reach, I can get the dwarven urgrush to ready against a charge.

Boots of speed : Tripping isn't an always-option. It's a sometimes-option that works against, oh, charging people that don't have reach. Also, great, you have Haste 10 rounds a day - what do you do during those other rounds?

Your TWFer is competent, sure. It's competent at exactly ONE thing - full attacking. As I said, I used PHB2 simply because that's the splat you chose, and yes, it favors a TWFer. Note, however, that you're using nine feats to do one thing - the TWF line, Weapon focus/spec/master/etc, and exotic proficiency. In nine feats, I gimped myself by choosing the same book you did, but picked up EWP and the same five "Minor damage boost" feats, then also snagged combat reflexes and tripping, allowing me to have at least three separate options. Had I chosen a different book, and used the SRD more, I could very easily have changed the look of that build. I was attempting to play nicely against your abrupt change of the rules. I intend to do no such thing to contend against your dervish.

::Edit:: Oh, and it's also worth noting that if we include the AoO I'm likely to get each turn, my damage does, in fact, pull ahead of yours. As it would also likely do if you're tripped at any point. Would you like me to do the math for that?

Actually, let's say I chose the SRD for my source instead of PHB2. I'd lose melee weapon mastery and improved sunder (because, as you pointed out, this doesn't work). I'd instead pick up Knockdown and Stand Still. My damage would go down, slightly, but now I never need to AIM for a trip, they just happen every time I connect. I can also make you stop 10 feet from me, so that you are never capable of landing a blow. My speed doesn't matter if you can't reach me, and your damage drops to 0 when I hit on anything but a 1 for a reflex save of DC... 2d4+27, so minimum 29. And your entire trick - something you've dumped nine feats into doing competently - is stopped in its tracks by a reach weapon and one feat.

Seerow

2011-05-17, 09:46 AM

Honestly, I'd give him back his MIC stuff, and pick some MIC items yourself. Isn't there some items that increase power attack multipliers, and strength multipliers, in there? That would benefit you far more than his couple of random items did for him...

Mystify

2011-05-17, 09:52 AM

Ok, I was wrong about the dex limiting affects of armour.

I am also fully competent at charging.So I can do single powerful attacks at range, and then maul things up close.

I can trade cleave for combat reflexes, and as I advance I can take a feat to let me attack with both weapons on an AoO. A permament enlarge person can give me reach. I think that multiple AoOs a round is a stretch. Many things have reach at that level

In any case, taking 2 weapon fighting has not doomed me in any way. I am a fully capable fighter, capable of dealing out tons of damage. Fighter's don't need to control the battlefield, they are rather poor at it. Even if there are other options that are slightly better overall, its not so huge a gulf that two weapon fighting needs to be ridiculed.

Greenish

2011-05-17, 10:06 AM

You've also used Monster Manual material in the form of Wood Elf, which I generally frown upon in my games, but since this is a competition of sort rather than a game.MMI is core, without the slightest doubt, and it's material is usually (in my experience) considered fair game.

Seerow

2011-05-17, 10:10 AM

I am also fully competent at charging.So I can do single powerful attacks at range, and then maul things up close.

Except your average damage per hit is actually lower, so....

I can trade cleave for combat reflexes, and as I advance I can take a feat to let me attack with both weapons on an AoO.

Aren't you already feat starved?

A permament enlarge person can give me reach. I think that multiple AoOs a round is a stretch. Many things have reach at that level

How are you getting this permanent enlarge person? You have your wealth stretched to the limit as is, and you're a straight fighter. Besides that, if you get a permanent enlarge, so does he, and his reach is still better.

In any case, taking 2 weapon fighting has not doomed me in any way. I am a fully capable fighter, capable of dealing out tons of damage. Fighter's don't need to control the battlefield, they are rather poor at it. Even if there are other options that are slightly better overall, its not so huge a gulf that two weapon fighting needs to be ridiculed.

By 'tons of damage' you mean slightly more than a completely low op non-focused two handed fighter. Seriously, about half his feats go to things that aren't actually damage increasing, instead aiming to be more useful. As opposed to your Fighter which has every single feat as a damage dealing feat. And even with that gulf in resources, spent his damage is very close to yours.

Quietus

2011-05-17, 10:40 AM

Alright, to compare against your Dervish :

Orcish Wolf Totem Barbarian2/Fighter4/Frenzied Berserker6

1) Power Attack
2) Improved Trip
3) Cleave (Fighter bonus)
3) Destructive Rage
4) Improved Bull Rush (Fighter bonus)
6) Intimidating Rage
6) Shock trooper (Fighter bonus)
9) Knock Down
12) Leap attack

Key class abilities : 1/day Rage, 3/day frenzy, deathless frenzy, improved power attack, supreme cleave.

Abilities :
Str 23 (27, or 33 in a rage Frenzy, sorry. My bad.)
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 6

Items :
+1 Keen Vicious Ghost Touch Falchion, 32k
+4 str belt, 16k
Sacred Scabbard, 4.4k (3/day Bless Weapon for auto-confirmed crits)
Boots of speed, 12k
Belt of Battle, 12k
6x potion of enlarge person, 1,500 (should be much less, but I'm using the unfixed price. These are all caster level 5, so 5 minutes each)
Spent : 87.9k/88k

Since you're counting your damage in a dance, I'll count my damage in a frenzied charge. Attack bonus is +11 (strength), +1 (weapon), +2 (Charging), +12 (base attack), for a total of +26. It'll do. I'm in a frenzy, so I get an extra attack at my highest bonus; In combats where this isn't the case, I have boots of speed to cover me. I could also in theory take the Whirling Frenzy alt class feature to do the same. Attack routine is +26/+26/+21/+16, or 95%/95%/95%/70%, due to Shock Trooper killing AC instead of base attack. Any hit that connects and does 10 or more damage has a chance to trip, with a trip bonus of +15, increasing later bonuses by 20% up to a max of 95%.

Damage : +16 (strength), +1 (weapon), +72 (power attack, 1:3 ratio gives 36 from improved power attack, which is increased 100% by leap attack), 2d6 (vicious quality), 2d4 (falchion). So 2d4+2d6+89, or an average of 101 damage per hit. 95/95/95/70% damage on average is 355%, for a grand total of 358.55 damage per round. This goes up by 5 average damage per hit, or 17.75 additional damage, if I've drank an Enlarge Person potion beforehand, which also increases my trip modifier to +20. I can take a five-foot step before making a Cleave attempt, so the odds of me taking out multiple people with my charge are pretty significant, and the belt of battle lets me take extra move actions to set up charges. And I have three frenzy's a day, so it's not like this is a "One shot then it's over" deal. Also, note that this character doesn't give a damn about damage reduction, really, as each hit is over a hundred damage. Even DR 30 gets chopped through pretty quickly.

Please do show me how you can make TWF stack up to over 350 damage per round.

Greenish

2011-05-17, 10:43 AM

+1 Keen Vicious Ghost Touch Falchion, 32kSave money, drop the Ghost Touch, buy Gauntlets of Ghost Fighting, Ghost Shroud or just the weapon crystal.

Quietus

2011-05-17, 10:45 AM

*Shrugs* All options. I don't really care. I'll worry about that if he can break the three hundred damage mark on his TWFer with all sources allowed. He apparently only recognizes the usefulness of damage, so this build is one in that almost everything cycles around that one thing, to the exclusion of everything else. Hell, I could drop the ghost touch, and the keen, and probably even the vicious, and spend the extra 30k I'd get on defensive items and hardly feel the difference.

Do note I didn't factor crits into that. With the sacred scabbard, all crits are automatically confirmed, so it'd be a straight 30% increase in damage, putting me near to the 500 damage mark.

Greenish

2011-05-17, 11:10 AM

300 dpr TWF, charging allowed, all sources open? That should be doable.

Amusingly, Sacred Scabbard works for double weapons.

Mystify

2011-05-17, 11:19 AM

My average damage per hit is nearly the same as yours when I am using my weapon two handed, so it was fully capable at charging.

I've already said that uberchargers are incredible. If you are using that as your arguemnt, then noone should ever play any other martial build. In fact, it hinges on 2 abilites that are commonly considered exploitive. Namely, pounce and shock trooper, and using one of the most overpowered martial classes in existence. If it wasn't for deathless frenzy(or whatever the abiltyis called) that character would be dead meat against multiple opponents, as he charges, throws his Ac otu thewindow, kills 1 thing horribly, and gets torn apart by everything else. It is so explotative it easily crosses the line from "I am an effective fighter" to "I broke the campaign". It also relies on you getting full benifit of a charge on every attack from pounce, even though that makes no sense for iterative attacks. "Oh look, I throw myself bodily at you, using all my strength and momentum to make this count.... and now that I hit you, I will swing my axe 3 more times with that same force".

So, if we grant that an uber-charger build is lightyears ahead of anything else, how does two weapon fighting compare to a non-uber charger build?

And I bet I could build a martial character that would destroy him in one on one combat. Admittedly it would be based on countering power attacks and charges, but its actually really easy to do. Not that designing someone to take out a specific target is hard.

Seerow

2011-05-17, 11:22 AM

Mystify

2011-05-17, 11:29 AM

Who cares? It one-shots everything. Thats enough of an ubercharger for me.

Seerow

2011-05-17, 11:34 AM

Who cares? It one-shots everything. Thats enough of an ubercharger for me.

Well make up your mind, do you want a lot of damage or not? He makes a build that doesn't focus on damage, and instead aims for more utility while managing roughly the same damage as the TWF build, you complain that the utility is useless, and the damage is the same as TWF, therefore TWF must be better. He then shows a build that is far more damage, and you complain it is too OP.

What you are demonstrating is the entire point. THF achieves the same result as TWF with far less resources invested, and far more when you broaden your resources available. This means no matter what your target is, whether it be damage or utility, at similar optimization levels THF will be strictly better.

You can keep moving the goal posts all day, but you'll keep getting the same results. We get that you like TWF. That's fine. You can play it, and as you've demonstrated you can get decent usage out of it. However you'd be better off in every way going THF, which is the point that has been made from the start.

Mystify

2011-05-17, 11:41 AM

Greenish

2011-05-17, 11:45 AM

I can just about break 300 dpr, though I need valorous weapons (which that frenzied berserker skipped), and I can't use reach weapon. Might be able to squeeze out a bit more damage with, say, Large weapon and strongarm bracers, maybe EWM's flurry, but oh well.

Wood Elf
18 (16+2) str, 16 (14+2) dex, 14 (16-2) con, 10 (12-2) int, 10 wis, 8 cha
+3 str (levels)
+4 str (item)
+4 str (frenzy)

ranger1: Bladebearer of Valenar
ranger2: TWF
barb1: WF: Valenar Double Scimitar
fight1: Power Attack
fight2: Imp. Bull Rush
rb1: Shock Trooper
rb2
rb3
rb4: Leap Attack
rb5
full BAB
full BAB: Extra Rage

+1 valorous/+1 valorous valenar double scimitar 16,750 gp
Gloves of Balanced Hand 1.8k gp
Sacred Scabbard, 4.4k (3/day Bless Weapon for auto-confirmed crits)
Boots of speed, 12k
Belt of Battle, 12k
6x potion of enlarge person, 1.500k
+4 str belt, 16k
total 64.5k/88k

+9 (str) + 1 (weapon) +2 (charging) + 12 (BAB), +1 (weapon focus) -2 (twf) - (whirling frenzy) = +21

+21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11
95%/95%/95%/65%/65%/55%

damage +13 (str) +1 (weapon) +2 (weapon specialization) + 48 (PA) + 1d6 (double scimitar) = 67.5

67.5x470%=317.25

Also auto-confirms crits (threat range 15-20), great cleaves, has imp. trip, two free levels (maybe Exotic Weapon Master or something?).

Mystify

2011-05-17, 11:47 AM

I'm not sure if I will be beating it at level 12, but it should scale past it at higher levels. We'll see.

Quietus

2011-05-17, 11:52 AM

I have plans on blowing it out of the water, but its kinda silly.

But there is a difference between utilizign a fighting style to be effective and cherry picking the most broken elements of the system to make it explode. I specifically wasn't exploiting things like not being able to die and hence not caring about no AC and hence being able to power attack with no penalty. There is a line between "I am very effective" and "I exploited the system, and now combat will never function properly without extreme DM effort".

But I am serious. If you are not allowed to charge, what is the next best thing?

Spending a charge from my Belt of Battle to move action backwards, soaking the AoO if I have to (yours aren't particularly scary, after all), then using my full round to charge. How is this an issue?

Seerow has pointed this out quite well, and I thank you for that, Seerow. I have two options : Spend the same amount of resources you have on THF, which results in doing far more damage and having you call shenanigans because.. I spent all my resources on doing damage, which is precisely what you did. Or, I can spend some of those resources on utility, be slightly weakened in comparison, and have you declare yourself the winner because my damage is lower - even though I didn't count my bonuses for potentially tripping targets, or my up-to-three-AoO's-a-round. Hell, swap out Improved Sunder for Robilar's Gambit on my original build, and now I'm almost guaranteed to get all three of those AoO's. As I offered before, I'll gladly do the math on that if you'd like. I'm pretty sure three additional attacks at highest attack bonus would make even my limited build's damage outdo your dervish's.

As Seerow said, you keep moving the goalposts. I present a build that has options beyond just damage, and it's considered a loss because its damage suffers for having those options. I present a build that ONLY has damage and you complain about that, too. The frenzied berserker has ways to get charges in regularly; Supreme Cleave to deal with targets that are near to each other. Belt of Battle to back up for a charge. If I go over the gold limit as you did, I could pick up anklets of translocation for another 3/day freebie charge. Are you really going to say that the best TWFer you can bring to the table using all the options you can get your hands on can only be compared against a THF build that DOESN'T use all the options available to it?

Greenish

2011-05-17, 11:52 AM

With flaws, I could get Frenzied Berserker 5 fitted into the build by ECL 15, and get full 10 levels by 20.

But now I'm halfaway tempted to cook up a psywarr bastard sword & board character… :smallcool:

[Edit]:
Spending a charge from my Belt of Battle to move action backwards, soaking the AoO if I have to (yours aren't particularly scary, after all), then using my full round to charge. How is this an issue?Lets not go into PvP. I think Mystify means to ask what's the best build after charging.

Quietus

2011-05-17, 12:04 PM

[Edit]: Lets not go into PvP. I think Mystify means to ask what's the best build after charging.

Agreed. And the next best would probably be battlefield control, which isn't as easily quantifiable via damage, because of its AoO-and-options based build. It does less damage in a full attack than TWF, therefore it's not as good, right? [/sarcasm]

Mystify

2011-05-17, 12:04 PM

Greenish is right. If we are comparing types of builds, we need more than one point of comparison. Its established that charging based builds are crazy powerful, but how does it compare to other strategies? If the strategies rank at 4,5,6,15, then 6 is still a good strategy, 15 is jsut an outlier.

And I am calling shenanigans because it is using 3 things that I have always considered broken and ban worthy individually, then combining them. Those are a)shock trooper b)frenzied bezerker and c)pounce. I find it is the martial equivlant of using easy emtamagic, practical metamagic, and icantrix to get quicken for +1 spell slot. Possibly with arcane thesis on your favorite 9th level spell to quicken it for free. Is it legal? Technically,perhaps. Is it how the system is supposed to work? No.

Seerow

2011-05-17, 12:20 PM

And I am calling shenanigans because it is using 3 things that I have always considered broken and ban worthy individually, then combining them. Those are a)shock trooper b)frenzied bezerker and c)pounce. I find it is the martial equivlant of using easy emtamagic, practical metamagic, and icantrix to get quicken for +1 spell slot. Possibly with arcane thesis on your favorite 9th level spell to quicken it for free. Is it legal? Technically,perhaps. Is it how the system is supposed to work? No.

So you drop those things and instead pick up a Valorous weapon (which Greenish's build used, but not Quietis), Battle Jump, get on a mount and use spirited charge, or any number of other things that result in the same or more damage. If he really wanted to be mean he could have combined those things with what he already had and had damage around 3-4 times higher.

Also I love how you complain about pounce being broken while using dervish to get your full attack on the move...

Quietus

2011-05-17, 12:22 PM

Sure. Then how would you suggest we go about valuing things? How much damage is, say, a 3? A 6? A 9? How much is decent crowd control worth? What about reliably effective crowd control? Unbeatable?

We're veering away from the original point, however. The point is, is it possible to keep TWF comparable with THF. As noted, Greenish has put forward a very strong TWF build, which I find very interesting - just wish I had PGtE or whatever book his PrC comes from so I could look it up. Could I have strengthened my charging build, sure. I didn't stack mounted charges in there, or valorous weapons. I can do similar damage, I'm sure, using those instead of the options you consider broken. But here's the question : What's broken with TWF? I can build a charger to do hundreds of damage in several different ways. How can you build a TWFer to do the same? That's what we're really coming down to.

As a side note, a quick way to increase your damage would be to take that Rogue level, maybe drop cleave in favor of Craven, to add 1d6 sneak attack and +12 damage to all your attacks. It wouldn't put you over 300 damage, but it WOULD be a significant boost, I'm sure.

Greenish

2011-05-17, 12:33 PM

get on a mount and use spirited chargeSpirited Charge, two lances, Oversized TWF, EWM's Uncanny Blow… now, that'd be a silly exotic fighting style indeed.

As noted, Greenish has put forward a very strong TWF build, which I find very interesting - just wish I had PGtE or whatever book his PrC comes from so I could look it up.If you don't already have Eberron books, I suggest starting from the Campaign Setting. It's very cool. :smallcool:

As a side note, a quick way to increase your damage would be to take that Rogue level, maybe drop cleave in favor of Craven, to add 1d6 sneak attack and +12 damage to all your attacks. It wouldn't put you over 300 damage, but it WOULD be a significant boost, I'm sure.I could technically take SA fighter level, to keep BAB up, since it's a separate class from the standard fighter. I'm quite strapped for feats, though. Only thing I could drop is Extra Rage, and then I'd be limited to 1/day frenzy.

Though I haven't used flaws, yet.

[Edit]: Can't drop Cleave, since I don't have it. I only have Great Cleave from RB's floating feats. :smallwink:

Quietus

2011-05-17, 12:38 PM

[Edit]: Can't drop Cleave, since I don't have it. I only have Great Cleave from RB's floating feats. :smallwink:

That was more for Mystify's benefit than yours. You seem perfectly capable of producing effective/powerful damage-dealing builds without my help.

Also I love how you complain about pounce being broken while using dervish to get your full attack on the move...

You know, I hadn't thought about that. Mystify, can you clarify how pounce is cheesy when Dervish Dance isn't?

Greenish

2011-05-17, 12:41 PM

You seem perfectly capable of producing effective/powerful damage-dealing builds without my help.Eh, I'm just fond of Valenar elves, and the PrC has great fluff. That it makes Valenar's signature weapon good is a sweet side effect.

Besides, charger basics aren't that hard to apply.

Mystify

2011-05-17, 12:58 PM

The system was designed on a certain basis of assumptions. If you remain within those assumptions, things are decently balanced. Not perfect, but it works out. For instance, our core-based builds were very close to each other. The assumtpions of two weapon fighting vs. two handed fighting are intact there.

Then apparantly people didn't get the memo when they wrote splat books. Shock trooper breaks power attack. Instead of trading accuracy for damage, which can result in some low-level increase in power perfectly in line with a feat, it trades AC for damage. At first glance this sounds reasonable, after all, fighters want AC, so they can make themselves more vulnerable to hit harder. Except it is easy to make a character that does not care about AC. They feel that the effort of keeping a competitive AC is no longer worth it, and stop caring about AC, using the wealth to boost other defenses. Now that AC tradeoff is no longer a tradeoff. Its free power attack, which violates the assumption of what power attack does. I see what the feat was meant to do, but in practice it doesn't work like that. And hence it becomes a hole in the system.
Pounce. Meant for animals, so you can charge and get several natural weapon attacks. Someone decides to make it easy for players to get, and now its being used on iterative attacks to get charge benefits on all of them. This was not meant to be a player ability. Look at the Epic feats. Dire charge. Lets you get a full round on a charge, if its the first round of combat. This was meant to let you start getting full rounds from the first round of combat, instead of charging in on the first round, then full attacking. In that paradigm, its a reasonable feat. Pounce can be gotten at level 1, and is used to carry charge bonuses on every attack you get. This is obviously not how the system was designed to work.
Frenzied beserker is also working on a seperate idea of balance. Its frenzy is as offensively powerful as a 11th level rage. Which would be reasonable, but they made it stack with rage. Now its more powerful than a level 20 barbarian. This does give you a -6 AC, which just makes it easier to forget about AC. To make it worse, they added the deathless frenzy, making the AC penalty absolutely irrelevant. This further causes problem with the shock trooper. The only similar abilty I can think of is the knight. That is a level 20 ability, that they have to spend their challenges on. So a level 20 abilty that burns your expendable fighting skill, compared to a 11th level abilty that operates because you are using your fighting skill. Then they add in improved power attack, which shifts the balance of power attack. Not that unreasonable to do, except this is in addition to everything else. Then you can give the beneifts of frenzy to all your melee allies, making this a crazy buffing class.

I don't even know what they were thinking when they designed it.

Spirited charge, the cavalier abilty, at least has a sane explanaition. Charging with a lance is supposed to be their main form of offense, instead of full rounds. However, the double damage from a lance starts to pale in comparison to a full round before long, so they increase the damage multiplier to keep it competetive. This actually made it really powerful and exploitable, but I can at least see the rationale.

Dervish, in contrast, does allow full rounds on movement, similar to pounce. However, this is limited by motion. If you are far away, you probably won't be able to move there and get that many attacks. Unlike a charge, where you move further than normal and get bonuses on the attack. Dervish does not allow you to stack charging bonuses on its dance, and it wasn't meant to. Thhis is also an abilty that requires a prestige class wih some pretty herfty requirements, not a single level dip in barbarian. It gives a damage and accuracy boost as you level, creating a good reason to stay in the class, without being overpowering about it. Their ability to use schimatars as light weapons is not that powerful, since you can get the same damage dice or crit range with light weapons. Its a slight boost, but not incredible. They get spring attack, but they need the prereqs to enter the class, making the clause that they don't need the pre-reqs pointless. Its main purpose is to let them use their comabt style, at a much lower effectiveness, when not dancing. A few bonus feats limited to when you are dancing is a reasonable class feature. All in all, some very nice things, but they are all reasonable. The thousand cuts abilty they get is an impressive 1/day attack, and its balance is more debatable. But all in all, Dervish is a very effective dual weilder, but its not rocking the game balance.

Greenish

2011-05-17, 01:00 PM

The system was designed on a certain basis of assumptions. If you remain within those assumptions, things are decently balanced. Not perfect, but it works out. For instance, our core-based builds were very close to each other.:smalltongue:

[Edit]:
Pounce. Meant for animals, so you can charge and get several natural weapon attacks. Someone decides to make it easy for players to get, and now its being used on iterative attacks to get charge benefits on all of them. This was not meant to be a player ability.Oh, so that's why rangers, psychic warriors, druids, barbarians and a handful of other classes and PrCs I'm forgetting can get it?

Look at the Epic feats. Dire charge.Look at Epic feats. Armour Skin.

To make it worse, they added the deathless frenzy, making the AC penalty absolutely irrelevant. This further causes problem with the shock trooper. The only similar abilty I can think of is the knight.Well, there are some spells that can get it for you.

Spirited charge, the cavalier abilty, at least has a sane explanaition.Spirited Charge is the core feat.

Charging with a lance is supposed to be their main form of offense, instead of full rounds.Oh, so that's why the PrC grants move & full attack combo?

Anyhow, if it's okay to gain free movement from a PrC that has requirements, you can get pounce from, say, Singh Rager.

Quietus

2011-05-17, 01:11 PM

The system was designed on a certain basis of assumptions. If you remain within those assumptions, things are decently balanced. Not perfect, but it works out. For instance, our core-based builds were very close to each other. The assumtpions of two weapon fighting vs. two handed fighting are intact there.

That has everything in the world to do with the fact that we were both using Fighters, and core's feat options suck.

Pounce. Meant for animals, so you can charge and get several natural weapon attacks. Someone decides to make it easy for players to get, and now its being used on iterative attacks to get charge benefits on all of them. This was not meant to be a player ability. Look at the Epic feats. Dire charge. Lets you get a full round on a charge, if its the first round of combat.

So your complaint is that it has the same name as something animals get, and that the notoriously-imbalanced Epic rules allow you a weak version of something a CR 2 leopard (and any character with wild shape) can do?

Frenzied beserker is also working on a seperate idea of balance. Its frenzy is as offensively powerful as a 11th level rage. Which would be reasonable, but they made it stack with rage. Now its more powerful than a level 20 barbarian. This does give you a -6 AC, which just makes it easier to forget about AC. To make it worse, they added the deathless frenzy, making the AC penalty absolutely irrelevant. This further causes problem with the shock trooper. The only similar abilty I can think of is the knight. That is a level 20 ability, that they have to spend their challenges on. So a level 20 abilty that burns your expendable fighting skill, compared to a 11th level abilty that operates because you are using your fighting skill. Then they add in improved power attack, which shifts the balance of power attack. Not that unreasonable to do, except this is in addition to everything else. Then you can give the beneifts of frenzy to all your melee allies, making this a crazy buffing class.

Except that Frenzy also means you *kill your friends* as long as you're in a Frenzy. Oh, and Deathless Frenzy only works as long as you're trying to kill your friends, making it harder for them to heal you. And you paid a significant feat tax (Intimidating Rage and Destructive Rage) for this benefit.

I don't even know what they were thinking when they designed it.

Spirited charge, the cavalier abilty, at least has a sane explanaition. Charging with a lance is supposed to be their main form of offense, instead of full rounds. However, the double damage from a lance starts to pale in comparison to a full round before long, so they increase the damage multiplier to keep it competetive. This actually made it really powerful and exploitable, but I can at least see the rationale.

And then they give it full attack on a charge, with 5x damage on every attack.

Dervish, in contrast, does allow full rounds on movement, similar to pounce. However, this is limited by motion. If you are far away, you probably won't be able to move there and get that many attacks. Unlike a charge, where you move further than normal and get bonuses on the attack. Dervish does not allow you to stack charging bonuses on its dance, and it wasn't meant to. Thhis is also an abilty that requires a prestige class wih some pretty herfty requirements, not a single level dip in barbarian. It gives a damage and accuracy boost as you level, creating a good reason to stay in the class, without being overpowering about it. Their ability to use schimatars as light weapons is not that powerful, since you can get the same damage dice or crit range with light weapons. Its a slight boost, but not incredible. They get spring attack, but they need the prereqs to enter the class, making the clause that they don't need the pre-reqs pointless. Its main purpose is to let them use their comabt style, at a much lower effectiveness, when not dancing. A few bonus feats limited to when you are dancing is a reasonable class feature. All in all, some very nice things, but they are all reasonable. The thousand cuts abilty they get is an impressive 1/day attack, and its balance is more debatable. But all in all, Dervish is a very effective dual weilder, but its not rocking the game balance.

Dervish allows you to spin circles around an opponent to hit them constantly with attacks. With a slight speed boost, they can be just as effective as pouncing - and they get fast movement in their class features on top of that. They're no more limited than pounce is, because they trade off the benefits of charging for the benefits of being able to hit foes that are farther apart. They can take advantage of two-weapon fighting (or not) as they wish. It's a nice class, certainly, but do note that a pounce barbarian has *no real actual reason to have pounce* for at least five levels, unless they buy TWF with feats or have natural attacks. They lose their fast movement for an ability that won't give them any benefit until level 6 at the very least, typically.

Seerow

2011-05-17, 01:12 PM

Greenish

2011-05-17, 01:14 PM

And then they give it full attack on a charge, with 5x damage on every attack.They didn't. Full Mounted Attack specifies that you can't use it with a charge.

Quietus

2011-05-17, 01:19 PM

They didn't. Full Mounted Attack specifies that you can't use it with a charge.

Shh, you're weakening the point my poor memory is trying to make.

Mystify

2011-05-17, 01:27 PM

Its more a matter of accessablity than direct power. I wouldn't complaain so much if you ahd to sink 5+ levels of barbarian to get it. As it is, its 1st level abilty. Doesn't matter if I wait till level 6 to dip into it, its immediately accessable. Dervish requires several feats just to access it, and its utility is more limited. Having to dance circles around a enemy to get a full attack isn't much of anything one way or the other.

But just look at the concept of pounce. I leap at my foe, and attack them with all my weapons. For an animal, that is a full round, claw/claw/bite, whatever. All weapons are striking with it. For a fighter/barbarian, it makes sense for 2 weapons, hence the two weapon pounce feat, but not for itereative attacks. At least, not if they also get the charge benefits. How does the momentum from your charge help your second attack? But my main complaint about it is that its a level 1 dip.

Game balance is a passion of mine. I like to toy with systems, see how they are supposed to work. This has the side effect of me finding holes in it instictively, and hence I frequently break characters by finding several things that make me for "ooh, that is powerful". In practice, precise balance is not needed, at least not for D&D, but the things that severly violate the game's assumptions are problematic. This is why metamagic reduction/free metamagic tricks are so powerful. They violate teh assumptions of what power a spell of a certain level has, and even worse, what the maximum level of a spell a character of a given level can cast. In extreme cases,(Divine metamagic persist, I'm looking at you) it even violates assumptions about what the max level of spell is. If you added in the limit that metamatagic reduction cannot be uses to cast a spell that would normally take a level more than you can cast, then it becomes ways to get more spell levels instead of increasing your max spell level, which is much saner for balance.

Greenish

2011-05-17, 01:27 PM

Shh, you're weakening the point my poor memory is trying to make.Can't help it, SIWOTI.

[Edit]: So we have to fit in four levels of Singh Rager?

Or wait, I shan't bother, I can just wand chamber a wand of Lion's Pounce. No need to burn levels for that.

Quietus

2011-05-17, 01:45 PM

But just look at the concept of pounce. I leap at my foe, and attack them with all my weapons. For an animal, that is a full round, claw/claw/bite, whatever. All weapons are striking with it. For a fighter/barbarian, it makes sense for 2 weapons, hence the two weapon pounce feat, but not for itereative attacks. At least, not if they also get the charge benefits. How does the momentum from your charge help your second attack? But my main complaint about it is that its a level 1 dip.

Your main complaint seems to be that the name of the ability, actually. Would it help if I instead called it "Flying raging steel"? That certainly evokes the mental image of a crazed angry wildman attacking wildly with a sword, keeping you off-balance since you weren't previously in a melee with him.

Game balance is a passion of mine. I like to toy with systems, see how they are supposed to work. This has the side effect of me finding holes in it instictively, and hence I frequently break characters by finding several things that make me for "ooh, that is powerful".

I used to believe the same. Then I learned a few things about optimization. You're complaining about my character's ability to produce a full attack on a charge, which is one of the very few ways for a non-ToB melee character to remain powerful in D&D. Hell, your stronger TWF build also made use of a similar mechanic, with different strengths and weaknesses. Game balance is just fine, but when all a character is capable of doing is outputting melee damage, in a game where casters have save-or-suck, save-or-die, and no-save-just-die effects, few of which require the metamagic reducers you're putting down here, they need a way to actually use their most powerful mechanic every round. Pounce - no matter what you call it - is that. And it still eats up more effort than a standard action for Finger of Death.

Mystify

2011-05-17, 02:05 PM

The main place that I think it is breaking is not so much the full round on a charge, though that ehanced the issue, but the uber power attack for no penalty part. Power attack is not meant to work like that. Leap attack, as a major component of that, is keyed off of charging, so a full attack on a charge becomes part of the problematic combo, but I don't have a problem with a full attack on a charge that is not being exploded.

Charging and full rounds are meant to be 2 seperate things. Hence, when people boost charging, it is in competition with a full attack. Making both kinda explodes. Cavalier acknowleges this, and specifically prevents their charge bonus from working on their full round. A charge/full round combo is only exploding when you are using the charge to get double power attack damage for no penalty.

That said, pounce is a potent abilty even without charge boosts, and it shouldn't be so trivial to get. Dire charge may be underpowered, but pounce is overpowered. Something in the middle works. I think dervish dance hits a good balance. It takes resources and efforts to get into, allows full attacks while moving, but doesn't explode with charge boosting abilities.

Quietus

2011-05-17, 02:18 PM

Look, the simple fact is, this isn't a debate about what's fair. It's a debate about "Can TWF reasonably keep up with THF?". And so far, the answer seems to have been : No, it isn't. Whether pounce, and shock trooper, and power attack multipliers, and all that other stuff are fair and reasonable and good game balance... that's all some OTHER conversation.

The answer to the question here is, quite simply, no. TWF has to pay too much in order to remain at par with what THF can get. If you have an argument against this statement, feel free to present it, but this game balance discussion is tangential and wholly subjective.

Mystify

2011-05-17, 02:32 PM

The issue is whether or not Two Weapon Fighting is underpowered. Getting mocked relelentlessly on forums is only justified if it is very weak. Its not, its just that they broke charging. Its a perfectly good choice. It can accurately put out respectable damage. The lack of power attack doesn't matter a lot unless you are using several abilities to improve power attack beyond reason. It doesn't need an uber-charged prestige class to be powerful, it doesn't have to use a poorly designed feat, it doesn't even need to use all of its own feats.

Now, lets try a slightly different comparison:
Pathfinder: two handed weapon vs. two weapons
I haven't looked at pathfinder nearly as much, but I get a feeling that pathfinder dual weilding is more powerful and two weapon fighting, while still very potent, doesn't explode.

Quietus

2011-05-17, 02:38 PM

However you want to define it. Melee is one of the weakest areas of D&D. TWF is one of the weakest options among these already weak options. That makes it underpowered, in my books.

Regardless, if you're going to move the discussion off to Pathfinder, I'm out. I don't know, and don't care, what changes were made for that.

Seerow

2011-05-17, 02:47 PM

Does picking up and carrying that goalpost ever wear you out Mystify?

Keld Denar

2011-05-17, 02:49 PM

The matter remains that TWFing is needlessly feat and ability taxed, is counter-intuitive to utilize effectively, and is heavily penalized for under-optimization. It takes a fair amount of system mastery to do right, which not everyone has.

In a perfect optimization discussion, it can be made to compete competantly, so long as you recognize the flaws of the system. In actual practice amongs people who don't regularly troll CharOp forums, the results are much less. It is one of the poorest options in a pool of poor options. It was designed crapily, which is the reason it's most often called "weak" or "underpowered". Just because it can be fixed doesn't mean its not broken.

Mystify

2011-05-17, 03:12 PM

Lans

2011-05-17, 03:16 PM

Charging can be shut down by difficult terrain, and some other things.

You might want to look into TWF with aptitude heavy crossbows.

Quietus

2011-05-17, 03:21 PM

I have shown that a 2 weapon fighter can operate favorably compared to a 2 handed fighter. Chargers exploiting power attack tricks may be more powerful, but that doesn't make two weapon fighting weaker. I was trying to uncover why there was as much prejudice agaisnt them as there was, and its mostly the existence of chargers, and the fact that it has a lower floor. I am satisfied with what we have discussed, and I don't actually care if you think two weapon fighting is useful. I have my answer.

I am still interested in seeing how they compare in pathfinder. Many key elements where changed, so I think its worth looking at.

All you're doing is taking situations where the THF is coming out ahead and going "That doesn't count because of strong options". Show us some strong TWF options, then, or admit that it's weaker. I showed you a THF build that was roughly comparable in damage, plus had other utility besides, and you took a 10 point difference in average damage, ignored possible AoO and utility uses for it, and claimed TWF was its equal. You can't just discount every option that gives THF the upper hand and then claim victory. Show us how TWF can compete - in options, in utility, in sheer damage - or admit that it's weaker and needs help.

Mystify

2011-05-17, 03:22 PM

I've build a character that dual weileded crossbows before. It was insanely powerful. Of course, it was also in a situation where two weapon fighting excells: against a known enemy(demons, who are particuarly easy to specilize against) and with buffing support(specifically an artificer). I was easily able to one-round an CR 27 demon lord at level 20, and could mow down several Balor's a round. It was almost pure fighter, with a touch of ranger. I haven't presented this as a comparison since it was in a very optimal position, with a house rule in effect to dual weild the crossbows(though I'm told there is a spell that could duplicate the effect, and we had an artificer, so that part is probably not as important as I thought)

Mystify

2011-05-17, 03:26 PM

All you're doing is taking situations where the THF is coming out ahead and going "That doesn't count because of strong options". Show us some strong TWF options, then, or admit that it's weaker. I showed you a THF build that was roughly comparable in damage, plus had other utility besides, and you took a 10 point difference in average damage, ignored possible AoO and utility uses for it, and claimed TWF was its equal. You can't just discount every option that gives THF the upper hand and then claim victory. Show us how TWF can compete - in options, in utility, in sheer damage - or admit that it's weaker and needs help.

And you got more damage with a speed weapon, after removing some of my equipment. I said I would rearrange the equipment to get boots of speed, so that is 10 full rounds of speed. That is normally plenty, and easily pushes my damage ahead by a large margin.

My goal was never to say that two weapon fighting was the most powrful thing in the universe. My point was that it is perfectly competetive, and should be shown more respect.

Quietus

2011-05-17, 03:31 PM

If you can't build a better two weapon fighter without frenzied beserker, pounce, and shock trooper, I rest my case. There exists a few overpowered options for two handed.

I did. You discounted it because it had a slight dip in damage, while also being able to battlefield control, provide extra damage via AoO, and use its last attack in the sequence to trip for extra attack bonus. As if the full attack is the only thing that matters.

Also, nice ninja edit to remove this from your post above.

And you got more damage with a speed weapon, after removing some of my equipment. I said I would rearrange the equipment to get boots of speed, so that is 10 full rounds of speed. That is normally plenty, and easily pushes my damage ahead by a large margin.

My goal was never to say that two weapon fighting was the most powrful thing in the universe. My point was that it is perfectly competetive, and should be shown more respect.

The only items I struck out were the weapon crystals, as you'd already gone outside the bounds I'd put out. Still, you've discounted two THF builds that either provided greater utility while still putting out almost as much damage - more, even, after AoO's are accounted for - and another because apparently the options out there for THF are too cheesy.

TWF is weak. It's not supported well enough, and it's a MASSIVE resource sink just to make it competitive. It requires a high level of system mastery in order to keep up with just someone with power attack, and if equal levels of system mastery are assumed, is left in the dust. Yes, if you take away all the options that make THF strong and give it utility, then TWF pulls ahead. That doesn't mean TWF isn't weak in the first place.

Mystify

2011-05-17, 03:44 PM

NineThePuma

2011-05-17, 03:48 PM

And he did the EXACT SAME BUILD with a different weapon, removed TWF and had enough combat versatility to have a good shot of competing later.

With a TINY drop in damage.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-05-17, 03:52 PM

Charging can be shut down by difficult terrain, and some other things.

The Step Of The Wind stance says hi. :smallwink:

Quietus

2011-05-17, 04:02 PM

What "system mastery" did I need to make a competive build? I stuck two weapon fighting and the weapon mastery tree together, and went "Hey look, it works", then used a double weapon so I could charge well. I used one feat from outside of core. It would also have scaled better as you advanced in levels. It may require system competence, but it in no way needs mastery.

You had to have enough system mastery - competence, whatever you want to call it, the same idea - to know that those non-core feats are out there. To know that the d6 damage abilities stack nicely with TWF. To go chasing after particular items in the MIC. And yeah, the anklets were among the things I struck out, but they didn't factor into anything you claimed to be doing.

While we can argue back and forth about which is stronger, they are in the same ballpark. I have a bit more damage, you have some battlefield control, its fairly well balanced. If I was markedly better my arguement would be that two weapon fighting is overpowered. If you have a scale and it is balanced (or close to it), and someone drops a lead weight on one side, it doesn't mean the other side is too light. It means someone dropped a lead weight on the other side.

That lead weight IS there, however. You can't simply discount it because you don't like the results it gives you. That lead weight is there and it STILL doesn't make THF as good as spellcasting. And it leaves TWF behind. I'm not arguing anything; I'm claiming victory because you've constantly tried to move the goalposts (thanks for the term, Seerow, as it hadn't occurred to me here) and claim that legitimate tactics are too powerful to count, which is the entire point of this. So until you can make a TWFer that competes with that light charger - and it IS a fairly light one, as it doesn't abuse mounts, or valorous weapons, or any of that - your argument isn't "TWF is fine"; It's "The options available for THF are too strong". Which, by extension, makes TWF weak.

When you have a real argument, let me know, but until then I'm done here.