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View Full Version : [Pathfinder] Demon seeking CR and PEACHing



Axinian
2011-05-12, 12:38 PM
I'm not really sure what CR to make this demon:

Alloces (Storm Demon)
CR ??? XP ???
CE Colossal Outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar)
Init +8; Senses true seeing, darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +33
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Defense
AC 34, touch 14, flat-footed 30 (+4 dex, +8 deflect, -4 size, +12 nat)
hp 504 (28d10+224) average: 378
Fort +24, Ref +20, Will +19
Defensive Abilities fluid form, forceful presence; DR 10/cold iron and good; SR 25; Resist acid 10, fire 10, force 10 Immune cold, electricity, poison, sonic
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Offense
Speed fly 50 ft. (poor)
Melee 2 slams +42[+34] (3d8+32+1d6 elec)
Special Attacks charged with lightning, death throes, engulf, storm front
Spell-like Abilities (CL 19)
Constant - death ward, flame shield (deals electricity instead of fire), true seeing, tongues
At-will - greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), mass inflict critical wounds DC 28 (4d8+19)
1/day - summon (2 Nalfeshnees 100%)
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Statistics
Str 42, Dex 18, Con 26, Int 8, Wis 26, Cha 26
Base Atk +29; CMB +48; CMD 70
Feats Power Attack, Furious Focus, Weapon Focus (slam), Improved Natural Attack (slam), Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Quicken Spell-like Ability (greater dispel magic), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor x2, Ability Focus (mass inflict critical wounds), Quicken Spell-like Ability (mass inflict critical wounds)
Language abyssal, telepathy
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Special Abilities
Charged with Lightning (Su) An alloce’s body constantly crackles with electricity. Its slam attacks are treated as having the shocking burst property. Anyone striking an alloces with a natural weapon or unarmed strike takes 1d6 points of electricity damage. A creature that grapples one or is grappled by one takes 6d6 points of electricity damage each round the grapple persists. Furthermore, any creature engulfed by an alloces takes an extra 4d6 electricity damage and 4d6 sonic damage each round.
Death Throes (Su) When killed, an alloces explodes in a blinding flash of electricity and wind that deals 100 points of damage (half electric, half unholy damage) to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 32 halves). The save DC is Constitution-based.
Engulf (Ex) An alloces can simply engulf gargantuan or smaller creatures in its path as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The alloces merely has to move over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make attacks of opportunity against it, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity can attempt a DC 40 Reflex save to avoid being engulfed—on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent's choice) as the demon moves forward. Engulfed creatures are subject to the alloces’s Charcged with Lightning ability, gain the pinned condition, and are trapped within its body until they are no longer pinned. The save DC is Strength-based.
Fluid Form (Ex) An alloces’s form is composed of clouds and and chaotic energies. It is unaffected by polymorph effects, as its fluid nature simply reasserts itself when forced into any other shape. It can also fit through openings as though it were a large size creature, taking no squeezing penalties. Furthermore, an alloces is always treated as though it were affected by the freedom of movement spell.
Forceful Presence (Su) An alloces adds its charisma modifier as a deflection bonus to its AC and CMD.
Storm Front (Su) A raging storm follows the alloces. This storm affects an area with a 100 ft. radius centered on the alloces. Within the storm, hailstones rain down each round, dealing 5d6 points of bludgeoning damage (no save) to all creatures within the area. Furthermore, violent rain and wind gusts reduce visibility. The rain obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target). Speed is reduced by three-quarters. Ranged attacks within the area of the storm are impossible. Spells cast within the area are disrupted unless the caster succeeds on a Concentration check against a DC 29 + the level of the spell the caster is attempting.

When I used Vorpal Tribble's calculator it came out to somewhere well above CR 20, which doesn't seem at all correct. I gave it hit dice under the assumption that it's CR 19, but I'm not sure if it's actually that strong.

So, what CR should this be? How can I weaken/improve it so it winds up as CR 18 or 19? And since it's here, any suggestions on what I should change regardless of CR?

jmelesky
2011-05-12, 01:14 PM
I'm not really sure what CR to make this demon:
Defense
AC 34, touch 14, flat-footed 30 (+4 dex, +8 deflect, -4 size, +12 nat)
hp 504 (28d10+224) average: 378
Fort +24, Ref +20, Will +19
Defensive Abilities fluid form, forceful presence; DR 10/cold iron and good; SR 25; Resist acid 10, fire 10, force 10 Immune cold, electricity, poison, sonic

When I used Vorpal Tribble's calculator it came out to somewhere well above CR 20, which doesn't seem at all correct. I gave it hit dice under the assumption that it's CR 19, but I'm not sure if it's actually that strong.

Regardless, i think i see one big problem right off the bat. The PF guidelines suggest 28HD for a CR19 Outsider, but if you look at the demons actually in that range, they're much lower. Vrolikai (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-vrolikai) (CR19), only have 19HD. Balor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/balor) (CR20), only have 20HD.

Why are they different from the creation rules? Not sure. Possibly because demons get stuff in addition to outsiders.

It's entirely possible that you'd bring the CR down to 19 just by reducing the HD to 19 or 20.

Also, do you have a link to that calculator? If it's designed for 3.5, it might be calculating differently. I'd recommend plugging the Vorlikai into the calculator and seeing where it ends up, and then using that as your target CR (for that calculator).

Hope that helps.

Axinian
2011-05-12, 01:46 PM
This is VT's thing.

#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD .

#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if its got a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR
Just to be clear, I'm not looking for suggestions for making it work in the above calculator, but to make it work based on what you guys think a CR 19 is.

Demons in this range usually do have less hit dice, but a Balor, for example has roughly similar HP, just a higher Con score, so I don't really see that changing much in VT's calculator.
Regardless, I might drop its hit dice some anyway, should be good start.

nyarlathotep
2011-05-12, 03:08 PM
It should probably have a few constant spell defenses as is the pathfinder paradigm. Freedom of movement is nearly a requirement and fits the flavor quite well; blur, death ward, and an electricity substituted flame shield could all work as well.

Axinian
2011-05-12, 04:56 PM
It should probably have a few constant spell defenses as is the pathfinder paradigm. Freedom of movement is nearly a requirement and fits the flavor quite well; blur, death ward, and an electricity substituted flame shield could all work as well.
Good suggestions. I think I was gonna put freedom of movement in the fluid form ability but forgot. Though I don't think blur is entirely necessary given the Storm Front ability.