Abjurant Champ Gish Build (Pally/Sorc)

[zeshion]

Alright, so I've decided to make me a Abjurant Champ gish build with the Pally/Sorc combo, pumping Cha as much as I can. I played a lvl10 version of this character (as a human with very different stats) but decided to change it slightly. The first build (the original "much worse than the second") completely neglected physical stats in and relied on Polymorph for that. Well, after running into some touch ac problem when NOT Polymorphed, I decided to change the second build up to have a high dex as well.

What I'm looking for is any other build suggestions that would help my cause out. Any spells that I should definitely have prepared, any feats I have not thought of, even any incredibly useful items would be a great help! :smallbiggrin:

-Original-
Human
(assuming 32 pt buy)
10str/10dex/10con/14int/12wis/20cha(+2 for lvl)
Paladin2(Paladin of Freedom)/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChamp3
Feats: Combat casting, Power Attack, Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Strike, Imp Init

-Revised-
Chaos Gnome (LA+1 which I will buy off I guess)
(assuming 32 pt buy)
6str(-2 for race)/18dex(+2 for race)/10con(+2 for race)/14int/8wis/22cha(+2 for lvl)
Paladin2(Paladin of Freedom)/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChamp3 (Same build)
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Combat casting, Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Strike, ? (still deciding on last one)

As far as items go I plan on having a cloak of charisma and gloves of dex (on the second character). All other items are really up in the air. I would also like to use a Sizing/Morphing sword so that I can use it in a polymorphed shape for whatever purpose I see fit (for ones that can wield weapons of course).

I just want to make sure that the character will be able to be effective at early levels before he is able to Polymorph/what have you. Any suggestions would be great :smallsmile:

[pilvento]

recomendation if u dont like polymorph.
get in there a lvl of monk and then asetic mage to add cha to AC.
boots of battledance lets you use cha instead of str for ar and dmg.
hearfell guantlets add cha to weapon dmg.
arcane duelist adds cha to ac AGAIN
swiftblade adds cha to initiative rolls

also, abjuran champ is good but swiftblade is better
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

[Keld Denar]

Greater Mirror Image. Learn it, love it, use it, live it.

Seriously, one of the best defensive spells...ever. Screw Mirror Image, Greater Mirror Image blows it straight out of the water. Immediate action casting time is freakin amazing.

Where is your damage coming from? Typically, you go with a Power Attack + Arcane Strike combo, but you don't qualify for PA. If you don't qualify for PA, you also don't qualify for Divine Might (for when you take SacEx levels) to get +Cha to damage, and you can't really efficiently use Law Devotion either. So, you are basically just doing weapon damage + arcane strike damage, which really isn't completely efficient.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Drop Improved Initiative and take Arcane Preparation, and keep (Greater) Luminous Armor (BoED) cast. It's an hour/level, gives you an Armor bonus of 5 or 8 + Abj Champ level, and opponents take a -4 penalty to hit you when it's active. It lasts an hour/level so with Extended Abjuration you should only have to cast it once/day. That should solve all of your AC problems for quite some time. You take some Str damage when the spell ends as a sacrifice component, but you can get a Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC) to fix that as often as it happens.

[zeshion]

recomendation if u dont like polymorph.
get in there a lvl of monk and then asetic mage to add cha to AC.
boots of battledance lets you use cha instead of str for ar and dmg.
hearfell guantlets add cha to weapon dmg.
arcane duelist adds cha to ac AGAIN
swiftblade adds cha to initiative rolls

also, abjuran champ is good but swiftblade is better
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

Thanks I will DEFINITELY take a look at these options. I like Polymorph, but I feel as though I made it a crutch. Where are the boots of battledance from?


Greater Mirror Image. Learn it, love it, use it, live it.

Seriously, one of the best defensive spells...ever. Screw Mirror Image, Greater Mirror Image blows it straight out of the water. Immediate action casting time is freakin amazing.

Where is your damage coming from? Typically, you go with a Power Attack + Arcane Strike combo, but you don't qualify for PA. If you don't qualify for PA, you also don't qualify for Divine Might (for when you take SacEx levels) to get +Cha to damage, and you can't really efficiently use Law Devotion either. So, you are basically just doing weapon damage + arcane strike damage, which really isn't completely efficient.

Cool I will keep that in mind. Also yes, I have NO idea why I added Power Attack on that first build. Hmm, I suppose I will will have to look into the options presented on the first reply. Like I said, unfortunately I was counting on pulling a lot of damage from Polymorphing into something huge and smashing, but obviously I need to rethink that a bit so it does not become my crutch.


Drop Improved Initiative and take Arcane Preparation, and keep (Greater) Luminous Armor (BoED) cast. It's an hour/level, gives you an Armor bonus of 5 or 8 + Abj Champ level, and opponents take a -4 penalty to hit you when it's active. It lasts an hour/level so with Extended Abjuration you should only have to cast it once/day. That should solve all of your AC problems for quite some time. You take some Str damage when the spell ends as a sacrifice component, but you can get a Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC) to fix that as often as it happens.

Imporved Init is only on the first build (which I am not using anymore). Also, Isint Greater Luminous Armor ONLY for people who prepare their spells and not cast them spontaneously like my Sorc does?

[Cog]

Also, Isint Greater Luminous Armor ONLY for people who prepare their spells and not cast them spontaneously like my Sorc does?
That's what Arcane Preparation does for you.

[zeshion]

That's what Arcane Preparation does for you.

Ah yes, fair enough haha. Well I will look over some suggestions and see what I can fit into the character. A lot is up in the air atm. If it helps anyone at all, the MAIN focus is to get high saves, high AC, cast well, and still get into the mix if need to (and I would certainly like to). Thanks for the help so far. Keep 'em coming! :smallbiggrin:

[Keld Denar]

Don't forget to buy your +1 Spellstoring weapon, or better yet, your +1 Bloodstone Spellstoring weapon. That's a better RoI for a spell slot than Arcane Strike, but is only really viable to use 1/encounter. Bloodstone is in the MIC, is a +1 equiv, and works exactly like Spellstoring except that you can ONLY load Vampyric Touch into it, and it is automatically empowered when you release it.

Also, consider weapon enchants like Wounding which do rediculous amounts of damage independant of anything else your character does. As long as the foe isn't immune to ability damage, each hit with the wounding weapon does what averages out to 1/2 that foes HD in "effective damage". Doesn't matter how much Str you have then, as long as you are hitting.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Definitely get the Sudden Stunning property on your weapon, from DMG2.

[pilvento]

Pollymorph is awesome but untill you reach the spell lvl or after you do, you cant polymorph everywhere.

example of where does dmg come from as the gish im playing now :smallcool:

monk1/sorcerer3/enlightnedfist4/swiftblade8 ( lvl 15)

bab and caster lvl at this point 12 (spells lvl 6)

spells needed: greater magic weapon, greater mighty wallop.

sacrifice a lvl 5 spell using arcane strike and arcane infusion (asetic mage)

dmg from a simple fist: 6d8 + 1d6swiftblade + 1d6elemental fist 5d4 arcane strike + cha (10 at this point) + cha again + 5 magic weapon + 5 arcane infusion

min dmg 45, max dmg 110. 1 hit
and u can make 6 to 7 hits in a fullattack 3bab+1flurry+1haste+1snapkick

attack roll? 40+ and you can also deliver touch spells with those deadly fists

yes, a lot of info and funny optimization, but im proud of it so I wanna share it

EDIT: boots of battledance come from a DMG, not shure now
EDIT2: now thanks to you ill try to fit 2 lvls of pally in that build

[Etrivar]

If pumping charisma is really important to you, you can go for spellscale from races of the dragon if you want to get rid of that +1LA.

[zeshion]

Wow, well thanks for all the info guys. I REALLY appreciate it. I will get to work on adjusting my character some more and hopefully be able to come up with something great. I don't think i'm going to go the monk/ascetic mage feat route since i'd rather not lose any more caster levels just for a higher AC (well it's not really the caster level, since with Practiced spellcaster I will be fine, it's the being behind on how many Sorc spells I will be able to know). The swiftblade seems pretty good, but once again I will be losing some caster levels plus my DM is not too big on using anything that's not in a book, even IF it's from Wizard's website.

I do plan on adding Arcane Prep for Greater Luminous Armor and I also have a much better feel for what items I would like as well. If anyone has any other things that they think of feel free to post it here. Hopefully I will be able to post an updated build sometime this week if I get the chance (for anyone that care haha) Thanks again!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You don't need any Monk levels to use Ascetic Mage, just wear a Monk's Belt. It grants the Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature (including the Improved Unarmed Strike feat) and the AC Bonus class feature (including adding your Wisdom bonus to AC). Just by wearing it you'll qualify for Ascetic Mage, and you'll trade Wis for Cha to AC.

[zeshion]

You don't need any Monk levels to use Ascetic Mage, just wear a Monk's Belt. It grants the Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature (including the Improved Unarmed Strike feat) and the AC Bonus class feature (including adding your Wisdom bonus to AC). Just by wearing it you'll qualify for Ascetic Mage, and you'll trade Wis for Cha to AC.

I completely forgot about the Monk's belt. Thanks! *takes notes for character* :smalltongue:

[Lonely Tylenol]

I made a thread about this a few days ago that got a lot of hits, with a lot of different useful ideas. Hopefully some of them will be of use to you.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198750

If you can't get Divine Might (and you can't, with your STR stat), pick up Mobility Devotion--it lets you expend daily turn uses (when you go into Sacred Exorcist) to gain an additional move action, which allows you to make a move action and a full-round action, or two movement actions and a standard action, or three movement actions.

If you want a CHA bonus to AC, Battle Dancer (a base class from the Dragon Compendium) gives a CHA bonus to AC, which applies to touch and flat-footed AC, as long as you're not wearing armor (and you shouldn't be, since Abjurant Champion covers you there). It also has full BAB progression, so you're not losing anything to get it (except the Sorcerer level, which, unfortunately, will cost you 9th-level spells).

[*.*.*.*]

A Draconic Dragonborn Magic Blooded Lesser Aasimar would be pretty awesome


For La +1 you would get +2 Str -2 Dex +4 con +4 Cha

[Dusk Eclipse]

Add magic blooded (dragon) to get an extra +2 cha for a negligible -2 wis LA +0

[Etrivar]

Add magic blooded (dragon) to get an extra +2 cha for a negligible -2 wis LA +0

When you say (dragon), is that dragon magazine, draconomicon, dragon magic, races of the dragon? Where is this 'cause DO WANT!

[Greenish]

When you say (dragon), is that dragon magazine, draconomicon, dragon magic, races of the dragon? Where is this 'cause DO WANT!Dragon Magazine #306. Also has other environmental templates, of the note being Arctic (+2 con, -2 cha) for many characters.