Dr. Strange v.s DarkSeid

[ArlEammon]

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t367940.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t480407.html

Dr. Strange at his peak v.s Darkseid! Who is more powerful?

Dr. Strange, need I remind you, defeated Shuma Gorath, the powerful alien god who conquered 100 dimensions. Dr. Strange's enemy is Dormammu, a powerful alien God who is both powered by worship and his own personal massive store of energy.

Dr. Strange is far superior in magical talent than even Dr. Doom. He demonstrated this feat by saving Doom's Mother from Mephisto.


That said, it can easily go either way. Strange is an otherwise normal mortal who has access to vast magical powers and forces through his skills. Which means he can get successfully waylaid by a street punk, and then turn around and successfully fight universe threatening Eldritch Abominations. Darkseid is certainly clever and patient enough to avoid a personal confrontation and arrange a surprise for Strange.

Just for reference, however, Dormammu and other Marvel entities are more powerful than the Warhammer 40,000 Chaos gods.

[The Glyphstone]

You're not really hiding your own personal biases as to the winner here very well.:smallbiggrin:

[ArlEammon]

It's not quite that. It's that even though I think DarkSeid would put up an enormous fight and maybe almost win, I am more knowledgable about Strange than Darkseid.

[Tyndmyr]

They both pretty much embody the power of plot. Given the frequent ridiculousness and wildly ludicrously varying power levels of both, the only possible answer is "whoever the writers want".

[Fan]

Darkseid put a pretty good hurting on the entire Justice League at once..

This includes such legends as Superman, Batman, The Green Lantern, and well.. do I really even need to mention the flash?

Darkseid is Superman minus the weakness to magic...

To quote him:

"Super or otherwise. You are merely a man, and I, am a God."

Also your statement of being more powerful than WH40k chaos gods.. That is wrong.

If a Chaos God actually got out of the warp.. They would be omnisicient, omnipotent.. and unable to be killed so long as ANYTHING lives.

It's kinda impossible to get more powerful than that.

[kpenguin]

Darkseid put a pretty good hurting on the entire Justice League at once..

To be fair, every archvillain seems to do this at least once. Its like a rite of passage or something.

[Traab]

Dr strange is mortal right? All it would take is a single omega beam blast to get past his shields, or hell, even a regular old god punch and he explodes into a bloody mist. On the other hand, I dont know if those omega beams CAN punch through stranges shields, or for how long he can maintain them. I also dont know about the relative stamina levels of each. My vote goes with Strange, just because he can basically instantly teleport you to another dimension. Pretty sure that counts as a ring out.

[shiram]

Dr strange is mortal right? All it would take is a single omega beam blast to get past his shields, or hell, even a regular old god punch and he explodes into a bloody mist. On the other hand, I dont know if those omega beams CAN punch through stranges shields, or for how long he can maintain them. I also dont know about the relative stamina levels of each. My vote goes with Strange, just because he can basically instantly teleport you to another dimension. Pretty sure that counts as a ring out.

But Darkseid could boom tube out of their, or use his boom tube on Strange.

[ArlEammon]

Darkseid put a pretty good hurting on the entire Justice League at once..

This includes such legends as Superman, Batman, The Green Lantern, and well.. do I really even need to mention the flash?

Darkseid is Superman minus the weakness to magic...

To quote him:

"Super or otherwise. You are merely a man, and I, am a God."

Also your statement of being more powerful than WH40k chaos gods.. That is wrong.

If a Chaos God actually got out of the warp.. They would be omnisicient, omnipotent.. and unable to be killed so long as ANYTHING lives.

It's kinda impossible to get more powerful than that.


http://marvel.com/universe/Dormammu

Beat that, Chaos gods. And since you said the CG's are omnipotent and omniscient, prove it.

[Traab]

But Darkseid could boom tube out of their, or use his boom tube on Strange.

Hmm, good point. Maybe he could try just teleporting darkseids upper body to another dimension then. :p

[Selrahc]

http://marvel.com/universe/Dormammu

Beat that, Chaos gods. And since you said the CG's are omnipotent and omniscient, prove it.

The Chaos Gods aren't omniscient and omnipotent.

They could beat Dormammu, if he was foolish enough to enter their realms. But his unbound nature is a big advantage over them.


Let's leave it there, rather than turning this into a 40K thread.

[doliest]

Dr.Strange is more powerful than Darkseid; Strange, at his peak, makes Eldar Things and Twisted God-Abominations weep; Darkseid, however, has one clear advantage-he can be more proactive than Strange. Strange is largely, last I checked, reactive. Someone must make a move before Strange can intervene; he's too busy responding to some other possible world-ending abomination to worry about all the things out there that might try to attack Earth. Darkseid is smart; he'd never force a direct battle with Strange. Rather, I think he would work more intelligently, only finally engaging Strange if it no longer mattered whether he won the fight or not.

[Traab]

Dr.Strange is more powerful than Darkseid; Strange, at his peak, makes Eldar Things and Twisted God-Abominations weep; Darkseid, however, has one clear advantage-he can be more proactive than Strange. Strange is largely, last I checked, reactive. Someone must make a move before Strange can intervene; he's too busy responding to some other possible world-ending abomination to worry about all the things out there that might try to attack Earth. Darkseid is smart; he'd never force a direct battle with Strange. Rather, I think he would work more intelligently, only finally engaging Strange if it no longer mattered whether he won the fight or not.

That is true, and besides, darkseid wouldnt willingly face him one on one either. He would make strange fight his way through an army of parademons, his lieutenants, and only THEN would he get the chance to fight darkseid. That'll drain just about anyone.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Darkseid hands Doctor Strange a note, or just teleports it to the Sorcerer with the Omega Effect. The note reads:

loneliness + alienation + fear + despair + self-worth ÷ mockery ÷ condemnation ÷ misunderstanding x guilt x shame x failure x judgment n=y where y=hope and n=folly, love=lies, life=death, self=dark side

[WitchSlayer]

Well, Darkseid IS.

[ArlEammon]

Hm. Last time I had a Dr. Strange v.s Darkseid thread on StarDestroyer.net, Dr. Strange won.

[The Glyphstone]

Not as surprising as you may think - as mentioned above, both are basically powered and defended by Plot. And since we're a different group of 'writers', the same fight can end differently.

[tyckspoon]

If you can make the match about something other than a straight up brawl, I'll bet on Strange, but I don't think Strange's body can handle dealing with the raw power Darkseid can bring to bear against him. Fight with astral projections, or make it a battle of wits backed by mystic forces, or whatever, sure, Strange'll pull it out, but if he has to try physically soaking Darkseid beating his face in he's gonna get killed. (It should probably be noted that Dormammu pretty much never loses to Strange in a direct fight. He gets beat by proxy, or makes promises because Strange maneuvered to a position where he was owed a favor, or fights Strange in a restricted setting where his peers/his own honor forbid him from just smashing Strange.. but you don't see Dormammu going 'screw it, I have the energy of like a million dimensions. Earth's power is nothing. Strange, you die now.' Because, well, Strange would die.)

[Xefas]

Well, the question seems to be:

Who is more powerful?

Not necessarily "who would win in a 1v1 arena match". To see who is more "powerful", we need to compare and judge them across every possible, conceivable human endeavor. Who can conquer Earth the fastest? Who can invent the best super plague? Who can bake the best birthday cake? Who can write the best Firefly/HarryPotter crossover fanfic? Who can bathe a dog the most thoroughly?

It's a very complicated question.

[Tirian]

Darkseid put a pretty good hurting on the entire Justice League at once.

And Darkseid has also been pwned by Batman solo. On Akropolis. He's as powerful and as vulnerable as the writer needs in order to tell the story.

To measure influence objectively, I suppose I would ask which character more effectively bends the entire universe to match his will. In this end, I would say that Dr. Strange gets maybe a 70% and Darkseid gets maybe a 30%.

[Otogi]

If we're rolling with magic, can Dark Khan (http://mortalkombat.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Kahn) ever factor into this?

[Thane of Fife]

Who can write the best Firefly/HarryPotter crossover fanfic?

I suspect that Dr. Strange has a better grasp of the human foibles and personalities of such stories, as well as on the messages of freedom and courage that they depict.

On the other hand, if there's a "Sitting on other peoples' couches" competition, I don't see how Darkseid can lose.

[Jerthanis]

On the other hand, if there's a "Sitting on other peoples' couches" competition, I don't see how Darkseid can lose.

Damn, beat me to it.

Truly only a dread menace could manage something so diabolical as that.

[Xefas]

On the other hand, if there's a "Sitting on other peoples' couches" competition, I don't see how Darkseid can lose.

I dunno if this is a comic book meme that I don't get, but I legitimately lol'd pretty hard.

Also, Darkseid is clearly more powerful in the lunch lady department.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/tiny.jpg

[Killer Angel]

Hm. Last time I had a Dr. Strange v.s Darkseid thread on StarDestroyer.net, Dr. Strange won.

Ah! Then we have a precedent! Problem solved. :smallbiggrin:


Not as surprising as you may think - as mentioned above, both are basically powered and defended by Plot. And since we're a different group of 'writers', the same fight can end differently.

If I were the writer, then Dr. Strange is the winner. But I doubt this can count as proof for the debate...

[MammonAzrael]

I'm going to go with the "power of plot" option. Both are insanely powerful, incredibly intelligent, and able to do just about whatever needs to be done. There are so many variables that it is unfair to just compare one or two different scenarios.

Given their full characters acting appropriately in-universe, I don't see any real reason why Dr. Strange would make direct moves against Darkseid. He is far too busy defending against other crazy alien gods. If there was something that Darkseid needed, I can see him being intelligent enough to distract or ambush the Sorcerer Supreme with his left hand while accomplishing his true goal with the right, all the while avoiding a true conflict.

[Viking_Mage]

And Darkseid has also been pwned by Batman solo. On Akropolis. He's as powerful and as vulnerable as the writer needs in order to tell the story.

Woah, woah, Batman certainly did not pwn Darkseid. Batman was getting destroyed as he should in that fight until he out-gambitted Darkseid. Batman claimed to be willing and able to destroy the entirety of Apokolips with well-placed bombs which caused Darkseid to let him, Supergirl, and the rescue operation to leave safely.

Of course, there was another time when Batman defeated Darkseid, but he had to break his one rule, had a gun to kill the New God, and died in the act.

Now, my bet is Darkseid, the DC Universe is slightly more powerful than that Marvel Universe. Darkseid has bested the DC Universe's mages (Dr. Fate et al) at least indirectly (Final Crisis). Darkseid has access to Omega Beams, the Anti-Life Equation, and at least one entire planet in resources.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Woah, woah, Batman certainly did not pwn Darkseid. Batman was getting destroyed as he should in that fight until he out-gambitted Darkseid. Batman claimed to be willing and able to destroy the entirety of Apokolips with well-placed bombs which caused Darkseid to let him, Supergirl, and the rescue operation to leave safely.

Of course, there was another time when Batman defeated Darkseid, but he had to break his one rule, had a gun to kill the New God, and died in the act.

Now, my bet is Darkseid, the DC Universe is slightly more powerful than that Marvel Universe. Darkseid has bested the DC Universe's mages (Dr. Fate et al) at least indirectly (Final Crisis). Darkseid has access to Omega Beams, the Anti-Life Equation, and at least one entire planet in resources.

Took the words right out of my mouth on that first one. Though for completeness sake we should note that same story ended with Superman throwing Darkseid into the Source Wall.

Also strictly speaking Bats didn't beat Darkseid in Final Crisis either. Given that Bats ended up as close to dead as will ever be allowed... and the Flashes and time travel were involved... which still left Darkseid with enough essence to take down you know reality. Probably best to call that a draw.

The DCU only really survived because Grant Morrison wanted to use hyper-narrative to try and kill his boss Dan Didio with Superman as his weapon of choice. But that's off topic.

I personally would back Darkseid more or less. Strange is certainly capable of making counter moves but I'm not aware of anything stopping the Omega Effect but Darkseid deciding to use it differently. And given that the Great Darkness Saga is back in canon Darkseid is on record of having taken on Mordru among other feats of badarsey, quite possibly after his defeat in Final Crisis given that this is a Legion story.

[ArlEammon]

Took the words right out of my mouth on that first one. Though for completeness sake we should note that same story ended with Superman throwing Darkseid into the Source Wall.

Also strictly speaking Bats didn't beat Darkseid in Final Crisis either. Given that Bats ended up as close to dead as will ever be allowed... and the Flashes and time travel were involved... which still left Darkseid with enough essence to take down you know reality. Probably best to call that a draw.

The DCU only really survived because Grant Morrison wanted to use hyper-narrative to try and kill his boss Dan Didio with Superman as his weapon of choice. But that's off topic.

I personally would back Darkseid more or less. Strange is certainly capable of making counter moves but I'm not aware of anything stopping the Omega Effect but Darkseid deciding to use it differently. And given that the Great Darkness Saga is back in canon Darkseid is on record of having taken on Mordru among other feats of badarsey, quite possibly after his defeat in Final Crisis given that this is a Legion story.

Strange's battle with Shuma Gorath, ruler of 100 dimensions, is pretty hard to beat. Has Mordru done anything in a similar fashion as defeating SHuman Gorath?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Isn't Shuma's power variable by how much connection he has to a particular dimension? So his multi-dimensional conquest means fairly little in a fight like all off-screen feats? And from what I've read Strange hasn't beat the guy with his own strength, but either kept him locked out of 616 or absorbed the thing's power and almost became its reincarnation for doing so. And its still out there just waiting for a chance to get in.

All that is besides the point, the issue is that under all the power he can channel Strange is mortal. Like Bats or Doom give Strange enough time and he should come up with something. However like all spell casters in plot he's still a wizard not a physical god. So he's not going to have some invincible defense against Darkseid's unique power all set and ready to go. Nevermind if Darkseid brings along his own plot device powers, Fourth World tech.

[ArlEammon]

Strange defeated the Infinity Gauntlet in mental combat.

[The Glyphstone]

Ok, confession time - I keep looking at this thread and seeing "Dr. Strangelove vs. Darkseid".

[Soras Teva Gee]

Strange defeated the Infinity Gauntlet in mental combat.

Uh huh. Mental combat must be nice. Since you didn't specify a wielder I'm presuming this is referring to the Illuminati and Strange acquiring the Soul Gem or some such? I don't recall the Gems combined power ever being opposed in that series beyond Richards trying to get rid of them.

Also skipping my previous post entirely says I was spot on about Shuma Gorath yes?

[ArlEammon]

Uh huh. Mental combat must be nice. Since you didn't specify a wielder I'm presuming this is referring to the Illuminati and Strange acquiring the Soul Gem or some such? I don't recall the Gems combined power ever being opposed in that series beyond Richards trying to get rid of them.

Also skipping my previous post entirely says I was spot on about Shuma Gorath yes?

I skipped that on purpose as a semi confession, since I haven't read the Shuma fight in a long time.

But the mental combat with the Infiniti thing was against Adam Warlock.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Which means Strange beat Adam Warlock, in mental combat. Adam Warlock, who's among the most wishy-washy idiots in Marvel. In fact its explicit Adam Warlock cannot handle the combined Gems and has had the lead powers of the Marvelverse tell him he's a massive idiot.

[ArlEammon]

Which means Strange beat Adam Warlock, in mental combat. Adam Warlock, who's among the most wishy-washy idiots in Marvel. In fact its explicit Adam Warlock cannot handle the combined Gems and has had the lead powers of the Marvelverse tell him he's a massive idiot.

A massive idiot using the power of the second most powerful artifact of Marvel Universe against Dr. Strange's mind.

[The Glyphstone]

A massive idiot using the power of the second most powerful artifact of Marvel Universe against Dr. Strange's mind.

Still a massive idiot though - if he can't handle the artifact, and thus can't use it to its full potential, it tells us more about Warlock's lack of power than Strange's actual power, doesn't it?

[ArlEammon]

Still a massive idiot though - if he can't handle the artifact, and thus can't use it to its full potential, it tells us more about Warlock's lack of power than Strange's actual power, doesn't it?

No....... It doesn't. He was specifically using the Infinity Guantlet to attack Dr. Strange's mind.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Which gives me a shrug and a so-what. Lobbing attacks around with a weapon you explicitly can't use properly has infinite leeway to fail. Especially in a mental arena where raw power means even less then usual.

(Also on trivial side note the Heart of the Universe doesn't in fact exist, or ever existed any more then any particular What If or limited series. Just another bad bad Jim Starlin story. So most powerful)

[The Glyphstone]

No....... It doesn't. He was specifically using the Infinity Guantlet to attack Dr. Strange's mind.

I can try to shoot someone with a gun, but if I'm too stupid to know the difference between rubber bullets and hollowpoints and so load it with the former, that doesn't mean the person I shot is bulletproof.

The Infinity Gauntlet (whatever it is) may be incredibly powerful, but if its user isn't capable of using it at full power, all that tells us is that Dr. Strange can fend off 1/2 the Infinity Gauntlet's energy, or 1/4, or 0.00001% of its power. We don't know, since it's apparently canon that this Adam Warlock was not capable of using the Gauntlet properly, and so couldn't attack Strange at full force.

[Lurkmoar]

I can try to shoot someone with a gun, but if I'm too stupid to know the difference between rubber bullets and hollowpoints and so load it with the former, that doesn't mean the person I shot is bulletproof.

The Infinity Gauntlet (whatever it is) may be incredibly powerful, but if its user isn't capable of using it at full power, all that tells us is that Dr. Strange can fend off 1/2 the Infinity Gauntlet's energy, or 1/4, or 0.00001% of its power. We don't know, since it's apparently canon that this Adam Warlock was not capable of using the Gauntlet properly, and so couldn't attack Strange at full force.

Thanos killed half of the Marvel Universe by snapping his fingers with the Gauntlet. Adam Warlock must have been using it wrong.

Edit: RE: Doctor Strange versus DarkSeid:

It depends on the writer, the setting and the stakes of the match.

[thompur]

I recall that Dr. Strange once defeated Galactus. Take that for what it's worth.

[The Glyphstone]

I recall that Dr. Strange once defeated Galactus. Take that for what it's worth.

So did Squirrel Girl.:smallbiggrin:

[Lurkmoar]

I recall that Dr. Strange once defeated Galactus. Take that for what it's worth.

There's only a handful of stories where Galactus wins (ie he eats the planet he came to eat). He's hyped to be powerful, but he can't ever eat Earth except for What if? type stories. He falls under the same thing as Strange and DarkSeid, if he needs to lose for the plot he does.

Heck, look at his poor herald the Silver Surfer. In objective terms, none of the mortal heroes can keep up with him. Thor is the God of Thunder and they're barely matched.

Guy gets creamed every time a new big bad cosmic guy pops up in Marvel to show everyone else how bad the situation is. He was even disintegrated in one Fantastic Four story arc (he got better in the end obviously).

[Viking_Mage]

The DCU only really survived because Grant Morrison wanted to use hyper-narrative to try and kill his boss Dan Didio with Superman as his weapon of choice. But that's off topic.


I understand Final Crisis now. It's so obvious now. Thank you!

[Soras Teva Gee]

I neither recall nor have heard mention before of Doctor Strange defeating Galactus. While he is often jobbed for plot reasons the only halfway mortal character I remember doing that alone with any success is Rachel Grey-Summers.


I understand Final Crisis now. It's so obvious now. Thank you!

Everything you really need to know about FC in one picture. (http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/5158/1232851774080.jpg). Not mine

Another that is crude but also informative. (http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/7628/1232840203775.jpg) Also not mine.

[paddyfool]

And Galactus sorta beat Darkseid in a crossover

Albeit a Darkseid who was pretty much just going through the motions.

[Venom3053000]

DarkSeid: God

Dr. Strange: Guy who beats up gods

:smallbiggrin:

[Fan]

DarkSeid: God

Dr. Strange: Guy who beats up gods

:smallbiggrin:

Difference: Darkseid also beats up guys who beats up Gods.

Case in Point: Superman.

[The Glyphstone]

So, now it's a guy who beats up gods against a god who beats up other gods.

[Fan]

So, now it's a guy who beats up gods against a god who beats up other gods.

Scale:

gods -> guy who beats up gods -> God who beats up gods.

If only by virtue of being a God ontop of being able to beat up other gods.

[The Glyphstone]

Scale:

gods -> guy who beats up gods -> God who beats up gods.

If only by virtue of being a God ontop of being able to beat up other gods.

Of course, we don't know if the gods Strange beats up are also god-beater-uppers, or if the gods Darkseid beats up are weaker than the ones Strange beats up.

Whee, helix logic.

[Traab]

Of course, we don't know if the gods Strange beats up are also god-beater-uppers, or if the gods Darkseid beats up are weaker than the ones Strange beats up.

Whee, helix logic.

The worst part is you cant even cross reference who they both beat up to compare strength levels due to the vagaries of plot armor. Darkseid as the villain, no matter WHAT his listed strengths are, always ends up losing when its all said and done, thus worfing him, while strange is the hero, so he tends to win in the end. About the closest we can come is to compare and contrast various abilities.

For example, we know that darkseids omega beams are strong enough to make superman bleed. NOTHING makes superman bleed without kryptonite involved! To compare, we need to see things that strange has been able to block. Has he taken any hits that are on that level of power or higher?

Another thing we need to know. Does darkseid have super speed? I cant recall if superman was able to dodge around him or not. If he does, thats a pretty big advantage over strange who is still human after all.

What offensive capabilities does strange have, and do they appear to have the capability to harm darkseid? Or will they just annoy him, and at best be death of a thousand papercuts?