Help designing a bard!

[Laucorn]

Hi guys, any help would be greatly appreciated. At the moment I am making a Bard build for a campaign starting up soon. I can use most 3.5 books excluding the Tome of Battle. No 3.0 stuff at all though for the most part our dm wants us to try and stick with core books unless we can print up the pages with our class info.

Anyway this is what I have to work with

Character Description:
Name: Raphael Maze
Race: Human
Level Starting: Level 9
Alignment: Neutral
Personality:

Raphael tends to act like a gentleman, and a selfless hero on the outside but in reality he tends to only do things when he sees a profit in it for him or if he will get something he wants. He possesses an uncontrollable desire for women and money so if he helps a woman its more than likely because he plans on seducing them, while anyone else will more than likely be left with a massive bill to be owed to him later though he does at times generally want to help people and can be a kind man with his avarice and lust don't get in the way.

Rapahel is a freeter, and has done various jobs as he quests around the world these include being a traveling musician, a poet, a writer, a bodyguard, and a sailor. Despite his young age, and outward appearance his experiences has made Raphael an incredibly clever and resourceful individual.

Stats: These where rolled and then the stat ups from level 4 and 8 where added.

Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 15
Cha: 19

Starting gold: 27000 this is the standard gold our DM starts us with when building our characters.

Basically I want this character to be a really good liar, while being able to talk his way in and out of anything along with being able to sense motives of others, but still be good with his violin, and somewhat useful in combat.

So any and all suggestions of builds, feats, and items would be most helpful.

Edit: Also I almost forgot our DM is requiring us to have at least some ranks in profession (sailor) because its a water campaign,

[gorfnab]

First off 2 handbooks that may help you.
Bard's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0)
Breaking Down Inspire Courage Optimization, Handbook Edition (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0)

The usual basic bard build I recommend is Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8.

What kind of role do you expect your Bard will play in your group? You listed a lot of "fluff" in your background. Are you mainly going for skills, support, melee combat, ranged combat, spellcasting, buffing, or a combo of these? This kind of information will help us with designing your bard.

[Laucorn]

Thanks :3 quick question what book is virtuoso in?

[gorfnab]

Thanks :3 quick question what book is virtuoso in?
Complete Adventurer

[Aemoh87]

I would look at war chanter and other classes that get inspire awe without losing inspire courage. Then find a way to play 2 songs at once (not hard at all) and you can fear and dragon fire inspiration at the same time! Tons of fun!

[HappyBlanket]

...You're going to want plenty of material out of core. Dragonfire Inspiration is the big one, along with Snowflake Wardance, Words of Creation, and Melodic Casting. That handbook will help a lot.

[dspeyer]

Arcane Thesis: glibness?

[Laucorn]

Awesome :3 thanks guys now how about some item ideas?

[Incanur]

As the guide says, pick up Melodic Casting for sure.

[Tyger]

Awesome :3 thanks guys now how about some item ideas?

Vest of Legends from DMG II is awesome for bards. Bonus to some skills, and a big bonus to effective bard levels for your Inspirational music levels.

Crystal Echoblade from MiC is handy if you are going to get into melee a lot (and on a ship, its likely) for some extra sonic damage to your attacks.

Sudden Stunning Whip DMG II is great due to your high charisma.

Harmonizing enchantment from MiC lets your weapon sing for you (maintains the song), though this is pretty much superseded if you take the Melodic Casting feat (which I strongly recommend).

Slippers of Battledancing (another DMGII item) is one of the better melee enhancing items you can get - Cha to hit and damage? Yes please.

THose are a few of the staple items, the rest will flow from your concept - the Tricorne Hat might be of interest to you, owing to your concept - though I forget if it is usable by a Bard - if no, UMD to the rescue!

[Cog]

The writer of that Inspire Courage handbook seems to have a questionable grasp of the rules (IC is a persistable spell effect? Really?). I haven't read through the whole thing, but I'd double-check any sources to make sure they work as described before using them.

[Telonius]

the Tricorne Hat might be of interest to you, owing to your concept - though I forget if it is usable by a Bard - if no, UMD to the rescue!

If you're talking about the one in Stormwrack, it's just a (fancy) mundane item. Not magical, no bonuses to anything, but it looks cool.

Circlet of Persuasion is another classic Bard item. I'd totally allow a Tricorne Hat of Persuasion if I were the DM.

[Greenish]

If you're talking about the one in Stormwrack, it's just a (fancy) mundane item. Not magical, no bonuses to anything, but it looks cool.I think he's thinking of Admiral's Bicorne.

[Thespianus]

Slippers of Battledancing (another DMGII item) is one of the better melee enhancing items you can get - Cha to hit and damage? Yes please.
Is there a way to get around the "Every round that you move at least 10 ft as part of a move action"-limitation? Otherwise, it seems like you can only ever get that Cha-bonus to attack and damage when you make a single attack.

Again, full attacks seems to get stomped on. ;)

[Telonius]

I think he's thinking of Admiral's Bicorne.

Ah, yes - it is a Wondrous Item, so usable by a Bard. Kind of pricey, but very good bonuses.


Is there a way to get around the "Every round that you move at least 10 ft as part of a move action"-limitation? Otherwise, it seems like you can only ever get that Cha-bonus to attack and damage when you make a single attack.

Again, full attacks seems to get stomped on. ;)

It functions with Dervish Dance.

[Tyger]

I think he's thinking of Admiral's Bicorne.

Ding ding ding! Knew it was something like that.

[Gullintanni]

It functions with Dervish Dance.

Dervish is tough to qualify for as it is though. You're better served with Travel Devotion, IIRC.

You might consider Paladin 4/Bard 16 if you want to take the melee route. Bard/Paladin synergize pretty well. Take a look at the Paladin of Freedom variant from UA. You get good BAB, excellent saves, and turn attempts to power Travel Devotion.

Also, if you want maximum output out of your slippers, see here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358

[Greenish]

Ding ding ding! Knew it was something like that.Tricorne is the jauntier one.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Charles_III%2C_1786-88.jpg
The bicorne is a more snobby-looking. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Detail_from_a_painting_of_Napoleon.jpg

Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference though.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Nelsonportrait.jpg
(That's technically a tricorne with really small front corner.)

This was completely on topic, since having a nice hat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceHat) is essential for a real bard.

[Talya]

Flat bard-20 is actually the best build if you are really building a bard. (If TOB were allowed, I'd suggest bard 19/warblade 1 for Song of the White Raven, but without that, Bard 20.) Sublime Chord is good if you want to be more of a sorcerer and less of a bard, but Bard is a fairly self-sufficient class.

Recommendations for alternate class features:

Trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack. Take the Jack of All Trades Feat.
Trade Fascinate for Healing Hymn. (you can duplicate Fascinate with a spell if you really want it - Mesmerizing Glare is quite good.)
Use the Eberron bard feature of being able to trade new songs for feats. DO NOT TRADE inspire competence at 3 -- it's a prerequisite for trading away suggestion at 6 for Song of the Heart (+1 to inspire courage effects.) Suggestion is now useless anyway, since it only works while singing fascinate and you traded it away.
Get Snowflake Wardance and a Crystal Echoblade.
Get a Badge of Valor, take the Inspirational Boost spell.
Dragonfire Inspiration is feat intensive, but can be very good. I don't like it stylisticly, but if it's your thing, nobody can argue it's not powerful.
If you can find a way to get intimidate on your class list, be sure to take Doomspeak.

[Greenish]

Flat bard-20 is actually the best build if you are really building a bard.Well, continuing SC casting with Virtuoso does pretty well too. Virtuoso is used because it gives good skills, and processes both casting and songs, not because of it's class features (which aren't so hot). That's pretty bard-y.

(If TOB were allowed, I'd suggest bard 19/warblade 1 for Song of the White Raven, but without that, Bard 20.)Eh, using the song as a swift action prevents one from using Inspirational Boost, and if you're using songs at level 20, you'll want the best mileage out of it.

Martial Study (any Devoted Spirit maneuver) gets one Intimidate as a class skill.

[Talya]

Martial Study (any Devoted Spirit maneuver) gets one Intimidate as a class skill.


Yeah, but with TOB banned...

[Gullintanni]

Yeah, but with TOB banned...

This is why I suggested Paladin of Freedom 4/Bard 16 instead of the more usual BardBlade. You can still get swift action movement via Travel Devotion and turning attempts.

The OP specified that he wanted a liar with a heart-of-gold sort of character, with some focus on Melee. I think that's the best I can do outside ToB.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, but with TOB banned...

...You were already talking about a hypothetical anyway.

Apprentice(Pirates of Penzance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoQ2yt8VJzs)/Soldier) feats open up Intimidate as a class skill as well.

OP: Figure out what your DM's reading of Initiate of Milil is, and whether that'd get you better Inspire Courage or just the songs in the first place.

[Person_Man]

The most important thing to remember is that the Bard has 3 truly meaningful resources:

Bardic Music uses: This fuels Snowflake Wardance, Doomspeak, Inspire Courage, and the various useful Bard-ish PrC musical abilities (with Stormsinger and Warchanter being big standouts for me). If you only want to optimize Bardic Music abilities other then Inspire Courage, then at most you only need 1ish level of Bard (or Prestige Bard), and maybe the Extra Music feat. For example, Bard 1/Paladin or Hexblade or Binder 4/Warchanter X.
Inspire Courage: When optimized it gives a fairly large bonus to damage or To-Hit to you and your allies. If you want to optimize this, go read the optimization thread to learn how to stack Inspire Courage bonuses. There are a bunch of different options. If you optimize Inspire Courage, by default you'll have a bunch of Bardic Music uses as well, and so you can also effectively use Snowflake Wardance and/or Doomspeak or whatnot. But Prestige Classes which improve Inspire Courage do not progress spells. You can also make a Paladin based Inspire Courage build thanks to the From Smite to Song feat.
Spells: Although he has slower progression then a Wizard or Sorcerer, he's got a great list, with standout like Glibness, Animate Objects, Improvisation (Spell Comp), and many other options. PrC like Sublime Chord and War Weaver are the best for this, but are fairly high level options. If this is what you care about, do not take levels of anything that does not progress your casting (like Paladin, Hexblade, Binder, etc). Your progression should generally be something like Bard 5/Prestige Class that provides full caster progression X/Another full caster progression PrC Y. So by default, you'll have 5 Bardic Music uses to play with, but you often won't bother using them since you have better things to do with your spells, and in general you will not be particularly effective at Inspire Courage because good casting PrC do not progress it.


If you care about all three, then your best option is plain Bard 20, because no prestige class progresses all three.

Note: I am aware that the Bard also has useful Skills. Some are very handy, especially at low levels (Tumble, UMD, Spot). But most others become far less important as you gain levels, and you can replace most of them with spells. In most cases all you need is 1 level of Bard and the Able Learner feat.

[Mordokai]

Well, continuing SC casting with Virtuoso does pretty well too. Virtuoso is used because it gives good skills, and processes both casting and songs, not because of it's class features (which aren't so hot). That's pretty bard-y.

Excuse me?

Virtouso has absolutely horrible skill list as far as I'm concerned. Sure, it gets Intimidate, but loses all knowledges, UMD, Listen, Sense Motive... and probably some others that can be better used to skill monkey than Intimidate.

I find class features of virtuoso much more appealing. Then again, I just ended building a support heavy bard and to her, the virtuoso extra songs meant much more than the already mentioned sucky skill list.

[Tyger]

<a bunch of stuff I agree completely with>
Dragonfire Inspiration is feat intensive, but can be very good. I don't like it stylisticly, but if it's your thing, nobody can argue it's not powerful.

This though... not sure why it is feat intensive. Most builds that are going DFI usually suggest being a Silverbrow Human, which means it is one feat. Granted, if you want to change your DFI damage to anything other than fire, you'll need to find a way (the usual recommendation is the Rite of Draconic Affinity), but its still only one feat.

Or am I missing something? Hope not, as that's the character I've been playing for two years now!! :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

Excuse me?

Virtouso has absolutely horrible skill list as far as I'm concerned. Sure, it gets Intimidate, but loses all knowledges, UMD, Listen, Sense Motive... and probably some others that can be better used to skill monkey than Intimidate.Good skill points, I meant, at 6+int. Jarring Song is okay, the rest are pretty meh.

[Coidzor]

This though... not sure why it is feat intensive. Most builds that are going DFI usually suggest being a Silverbrow Human, which means it is one feat. Granted, if you want to change your DFI damage to anything other than fire, you'll need to find a way (the usual recommendation is the Rite of Draconic Affinity), but its still only one feat.

Or am I missing something? Hope not, as that's the character I've been playing for two years now!! :smallbiggrin:

Does the Rite of Draconic Affinity work on things that are just dragonblood subtype though? :smallconfused:

[Gwendol]

I play a ranger 2/Bard 4. Very allround, and handsomly rugged fellow.

For two levels of ranger I get plenty of skills, rapid shot, track, and animal empathy, which is CHA dependent. The main reason for taking the ranger levels was DM request through. Still, I can use wands with ranger spells easily, which are quite good (like longstrider and arrow mind).

Other details of the build: bardic knack instead of lore
Skill trick: Collector of stories (+5 to ID monsters)
Feats: Melodic casting, lingering song (still debating if it's worth it), weapon finesse.

I'm not too sure of snowflake wardance: the requirement of using 1-handed slashing makes significantly less useful than in 2-handed wielding was allowed. I'd rather stay out of melee range as much as possible and use spells and bow.

[Optimator]

Jarring Song is pretty sweet. Revealing Melody is awesome but comes quite late. Mindbending melody is cool-ish. I used it in conjuction with the Requiem feat to dominate someone who reeaally didn't see it coming, which was fun.

[Talya]

I play a ranger 2/Bard 4. Very allround, and handsomly rugged fellow.
...

I'm not too sure of snowflake wardance: the requirement of using 1-handed slashing makes significantly less useful than in 2-handed wielding was allowed. I'd rather stay out of melee range as much as possible and use spells and bow.

The feat is ambiguous about whether it allows a one hander in each hand, though. WIth those two ranger levels, you could be dual weilding crystal echoblades... (Oversize TWF-FTW. :smallbiggrin:)

[CapnVan]

The feat is ambiguous about whether it allows a one hander in each hand, though. WIth those two ranger levels, you could be dual weilding crystal echoblades... (Oversize TWF-FTW. :smallbiggrin:)

From a DM's PoV, that would be stretching RAW a trifle too far...

[Greenish]

From a DM's PoV, that would be stretching RAW a trifle too far...What, by burning a million of feats on a fighting style that's pretty mediocre in the end?

[Cog]

The feat is ambiguous about whether it allows a one hander in each hand, though.
I don't think Snowflake Wardance is ambiguous about that at all. It doesn't even specify one-handed weapons - just weapons wielded in one hand, which equally applies to light weapons.

[Talya]

I don't think Snowflake Wardance is ambiguous about that at all. It doesn't even specify one-handed weapons - just weapons wielded in one hand, which equally applies to light weapons.


Right. And my reading of that is, a person with a weapon in each hand also has a weapon in one hand. It does NOT specify the person cannot have a weapon in his other hand.

Nevertheless, I can understand why someone would think that having your offhand free is what the feat intended. However, it is not what the feat says. The feat in no way forbids two weapon fighting. With a pair of crystal echoblades, you've got an excellent source of bonus damage to go with your offhand attack (which is why i'd go oversized for that second crystal echoblade). Trouble is...then you need more offhand attacks...which use more feats. Then you get tempted to grab dragonfire inspiration for even more insane bonus damage...which is another feat...and things spiral out of control for the feat starved bard pretty quickly.

[Tvtyrant]

TWF Sunswords with Snowdance, now you add tiny amounts of damage but get the coolness that is glowing hand and a half swords.

[Cog]

Right. And my reading of that is, a person with a weapon in each hand also has a weapon in one hand. It does NOT specify the person cannot have a weapon in his other hand.
Exactly. Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I was agreeing with you. :smallcool:

[Gwendol]

Cool image, indeed! But then you get into the mobility issue of being able to hit with both blades and get out of the way. I'll give it some thought though, if picking up TWF is worth it. If using Alter self to transform into a Tren, the resulting AC will be pretty damn impressive.

Speaking of Bards: is there a way of using Alter self to get Large?

[CapnVan]

Right. And my reading of that is, a person with a weapon in each hand also has a weapon in one hand. It does NOT specify the person cannot have a weapon in his other hand.

Nevertheless, I can understand why someone would think that having your offhand free is what the feat intended. However, it is not what the feat says. The feat in no way forbids two weapon fighting.

Yeah, no.

There's a difference between "poorly written" and "I've now twisted the meaning so ridiculously that it has no relation to the original."

[Cog]

There's a difference between "poorly written" and "I've now twisted the meaning so ridiculously that it has no relation to the original."
Perhaps you'd like to quote the bit of Snowflake Wardance that even hints at single-weapon combat, then? Because I'm really not seeing it. It even says "any" wielded weapon gains the benefits, not "a" wielded weapon.

[CapnVan]

Speaking of Bards: is there a way of using Alter self to get Large?

Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):
"The new form must be within one size category of your normal size."

[CapnVan]

Perhaps you'd like to quote the bit of Snowflake Wardance that even hints at single-weapon combat, then? Because I'm really not seeing it. It even says "any" wielded weapon gains the benefits, not "a" wielded weapon.

"Any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand," is the exact wording. The most important part comes from "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a shield".

I'm sure, in fact I know, that there are plenty of Playgrounders who like to take the failure to explicitly state the off hand must be empty as license to assume that it's not necessary.

The intention of the rule ought to be quite clear to anyone who's willing to accept that there are actual limitations in some splatbook feats.

[Cog]

"Any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand," is the exact wording.
If you wield one dagger in each hand, which dagger does not match that description?


The most important part comes from "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a shield".
Last I checked, daggers and shields don't have very much in common.


I'm sure, in fact I know, that there are plenty of Playgrounders who like to take the failure to explicitly state the off hand must be empty as license to assume that it's not necessary.
Power Attack doesn't say you must wiggle your nose while you use it, either. I'm sure that's just an oversight as well. There are other feats where the requirement of an empty hand has been clearly stated, as well as instances of using "a" weapon instead of "any". If you have some actual basis for your knowledge of the writer's intent, I'd really like to see it. How posters here view a feat is entirely irrelevant to intent, and says nothing for it one way or the other.


The intention of the rule ought to be quite clear to anyone who's willing to accept that there are actual limitations in some splatbook feats.
So, if you can't back your point up with the actual text, anybody who disagrees with you must simply be out for Ultimate Powah. By getting a to-hit bonus on a notoriously weak combat style where to-hit bonus is only one of very many issues.

[Talya]

Yeah, no.

There's a difference between "poorly written" and "I've now twisted the meaning so ridiculously that it has no relation to the original."

I believe that the feat as written intends to allow two weapon fighting. I understand why some would think otherwise, but the wording to fighting "einhander" style already exists in the game and is rather specific.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/duelist.htm


Precise Strike (Ex)
At 5th level, a duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll.

When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike. At 10th level, the extra damage on a precise strike increases to +2d6.

If they had intended to disallow two weapon fighting, they would have simply copied precise strike.

Honestly, i'd prefer a ruling that says "No, you can't dual weild, but you can use a buckler" (since you're wearing it, not carrying it.) I know shields are less than optimal, but stylisticly I like the buckler better. This is less likely, though. Technically, if you have a shield in a bag of holding, you're still carrying a shield and cannot wardance.

[Gwendol]

Technically, if you have a shield in a bag of holding, you're still carrying a shield and cannot wardance.

Correct, and very funny.

[Laucorn]

Wow! Thanks for all the tips guys! :3 Sadly our DM just did a major nuke to alot of our characters Y.Y Everything from ebberon = banned which sucks, and we can't use anything unless we have the physical book period. Which leaves us with DMG 1, PLayers handbook 1, Draconomicon, races of stone, races of the dragon, oriental campaign settings, complete adventurer, complete scoundrel, monster manual 1-3, savage species, and Races of destiny still alot to work with but not as much as I would like.