Possible Planescape: Torment sequel in the works [Archive]

Comet

2011-05-13, 04:23 AM

The part about Chris Avellone not wanting to do a sequel back in the day is relevant, I think.

Looking up interviews and such, a lot of the coolest parts about Torment were there because Chris, and the rest of the team team, were both tired of D&D clichés and small enough to do what they want without anyone interfering. So we basically got a big 'take that!' at D&D with the help of the best published D&D setting out there.

I just don't feel they can replicate that drive in today's market. D&D has moved on and Obsidian has moved on.

Plus, there's the fact that Obsidian can't make video games anymore. They absolutely have the best story writers on the market, but they can't produce code even if their life depended on it. I hope they'll pick up the pace and, if so, a project like this could be cool if they had a flash of inspiration.

And on a final note, if a sequel gets made I demand Jennifer Hale to come back as Fall-from-Grace. The most badass character in the entire game, right there.

Blayze

2011-05-13, 10:30 AM

The last thing we need is Obsidian half-assing a game we actually want them to not screw up.

Eldan

2011-05-13, 12:04 PM

You're right in that it will never happen, but still cool nonetheless.

When I finally got around to playing Dragon Age 2, after I got a full party of four, the first thing I thought was "...damn, I would murder a kitten to get a Planescape Torment remake using this gameplay/engine/system/whatever."

Unfortunately, the universe doesn't seem to take kittens as legitimate fate-currency.

God no, please, no. Dragon Age combat was so unbelievably dull and tedious.

arguskos

2011-05-13, 05:09 PM

The last thing we need is Obsidian half-assing a game we actually want them to not screw up.
God seriously. Please, don't let this come to pass. PS:T is a piece of history as it is, don't revisit it. It doesn't need to be revisited! Some things are better sans sequels!

Lost Demiurge

2011-05-13, 05:51 PM

I say go for it.

They're not gonna tarnish my memories of the original if they do.

And it might turn out well.

Why not?

Innis Cabal

2011-05-13, 05:55 PM

God seriously. Please, don't let this come to pass. PS:T is a piece of history as it is, don't revisit it. It doesn't need to be revisited! Some things are better sans sequels!

This, seriously. It won't happen so we don't have to worry thankfully.

Tvtyrant

2011-05-13, 06:13 PM

http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/planescape_torment --there, you have no excuses now! :smallsmile:

As for this possible sequel, I think it's maybe a bit late for one considering that WotC dropped support for the Planescape line years ago now. They never even updated it for 3rd edition D&D, so either Obsidian would have to do all the work of updating the setting to a modern system, or they'd have to use the same clunky old one in a modern game...

They updated it to 3.0 in the Manual of the Planes. It isn't nearly as deep as the older one, but it was technically updated.

Blayze

2011-05-14, 03:49 AM

I say go for it.

They're not gonna tarnish my memories of the original if they do.

And it might turn out well.

Why not?

If Obsidian do it then it'll be an unfinished, buggy mess--like Knights of the Old Republic II and Alpha Protocol. Almost any other company would be fine, because at least then we'd get a finished game.

Cespenar

2011-05-14, 03:57 AM

If Obsidian do it then it'll be an unfinished, buggy mess--like Knights of the Old Republic II and Alpha Protocol. Almost any other company would be fine, because at least then we'd get a finished game.

Both were perfectly playable and enjoyable games, way above the standard IMO, despite their unfinished condition. So it would be a good one, actually, if we were to go with that example.

Besides, the gravity of the title would push them to actually finish the game, I'd guess (or hope).

VanBuren

2011-05-14, 05:13 AM

Both were perfectly playable and enjoyable games, way above the standard IMO, despite their unfinished condition. So it would be a good one, actually, if we were to go with that example.

Besides, the gravity of the title would push them to actually finish the game, I'd guess (or hope).

Really? I thought Alpha Protocol was mediocre at best

The Rose Dragon

2011-05-14, 05:19 AM

The original isn't exactly ugly.

It isn't? Why hasn't anyone informed me of that? I don't really think it is a case of being spoiled by the new graphics, since I still play Fallout, Fallout 2 and Baldur's Gate 2 to this day (the latter one less so, but still) without thinking they are ugly. I gave up Planescape: Torment after realizing I had no idea what I was doing or what was going on on the screen.

Eldan

2011-05-14, 06:47 AM

It's actually intended that way. The beginning is very much intended to confuse people, especially those with no Planescape Knowledge. Whether you like that or not varies, of course. I love games which do that. Just dump you into a world and leave finding out about it to the player.

Cespenar

2011-05-14, 02:45 PM

Really? I thought Alpha Protocol was mediocre at best

I acknowledge its faults, which were many, but I somehow was able to play it to the end nevertheless, which I can't say about most games.

Aidan305

2011-05-14, 03:29 PM

If Obsidian do it then it'll be an unfinished, buggy mess--like Knights of the Old Republic II and Alpha Protocol.
And the original Planescape: Torment?

Don't get me wrong. I love the game and think it's among the best out there.

But that doesn't mean it didn't have a lot of problems.

Penguinizer

2011-05-14, 04:58 PM

God no, please, no. Dragon Age combat was so unbelievably dull and tedious.

Exactly like Planescape's? :smalltongue:

Driderman

2011-05-15, 10:04 AM

As long as they don't suddenly develop a technology in which the game reaches out into your mind and destroys your memories of the original game, I'd say let them give it a try. There's a chance something good would come out of it, after all.

I'd pay 60$ for that, just so I could play Torment all over again :)

warty goblin

2011-05-15, 10:34 AM

It isn't? Why hasn't anyone informed me of that? I don't really think it is a case of being spoiled by the new graphics, since I still play Fallout, Fallout 2 and Baldur's Gate 2 to this day (the latter one less so, but still) without thinking they are ugly. I gave up Planescape: Torment after realizing I had no idea what I was doing or what was going on on the screen.

I played a bit of PS:T after it came out on GoG, and it had good art. The interface was a horror show*, but the visuals were decent enough. I did use the mod that allowed the game to run in modern resolutions though, which undoubtedly helped.

My basic conclusion was pretty much, if I wanted an RPG about a guy with amnesia, I'd go play the Witcher instead.

* I find this a common problem with RPGs; somehow they take a game about controlling four dudes and make it more of a pain than RTSs where I control several hundred and an entire economy.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-15, 01:06 PM

A friend of mine told me about a PS:T mod that updated the art - not new art, but took the old uncompressed art files and reworked them all to be suited for modern screen resolutions.

Squark

2011-05-16, 01:13 PM

I played a bit of PS:T after it came out on GoG, and it had good art. The interface was a horror show*, but the visuals were decent enough. I did use the mod that allowed the game to run in modern resolutions though, which undoubtedly helped.

My basic conclusion was pretty much, if I wanted an RPG about a guy with amnesia, I'd go play the Witcher instead.

* I find this a common problem with RPGs; somehow they take a game about controlling four dudes and make it more of a pain than RTSs where I control several hundred and an entire economy.

If you dig around somewhere, you'll probably find ease of use mods that can help with the micromanaging issues. Most Infinity engine games have them.

Remmirath

2011-05-16, 06:26 PM

Lord of the Helms

2011-05-16, 11:07 PM

I don't think an actual, direct sequel to Torment would even work. It would probably be a poor idea even if it did; it's a rare sequel that truly works out more than a decade after the original.

Now, another Planescape game that isn't a sequel - that I think could be great, though I'd certainly be a lot happier about it were they allowed to use an older set of rules for it (I personally think 2nd works best for computer games, but 3rd works). Sure, it would probably be a bit buggy, but so long as it wasn't any worse than NWN 2 in that respect I could ignore it.

I agree, I don't see a direct sequel working - the story of the Nameless one was self-contained and concluded perfectly, no need to carry on with it. Now, another game in the Planescape setting, and one that some of the PS:T characters would appear in, that'd be something I'd be interested in, especially if they do as great a job at dialogue and storytelling as the original. The main problem is I don't see them pulling the amnesia story all over again without it seeming very contrived, but at the same time amnesia and rediscovering your past was such an integral part to this game (as opposed to, say, The Witcher where it was just a plot device to justify your character being starting-level and had little to no impact on the actual story) that a sequel won't ever come close to the same "feeling" without it.

It isn't? Why hasn't anyone informed me of that? I don't really think it is a case of being spoiled by the new graphics, since I still play Fallout, Fallout 2 and Baldur's Gate 2 to this day (the latter one less so, but still) without thinking they are ugly. I gave up Planescape: Torment after realizing I had no idea what I was doing or what was going on on the screen.

Now, compared to Baldur's Gate 2, you can argue that PS:T isn't quite as good in terms of graphics design of the levels and backgrounds and suffers from lower resolution (but it does have more detailed and far better animated models), but I honestly can't see how anyone could look at Fallout 1 or 2 and Planescape Torment and judge the former superior to the latter. The world, but especially the characters are so much better-looking it's not even funny.
PS:T basically is one of those last-generation of isometric 2D games that, much like BG2, were close to the optimum you could achieve with that technology, and has aged very well compared to 3D games released around the same time. I can still start it up and think "yeah, this is a pretty nice-looking world" rather than "My Eyes! The Antialiasing, it does nothing!" as it happens in pre-Quake 3 3D games.

Just to be clear what we're talking about, these are actual in-game graphics:
http://www.hardwaretidende.dk/hard/artikelimages/24062004-17.jpg
http://sprayahen.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/torment-2010-07-14-04-38-20-71.jpg

Semidi

2011-05-16, 11:22 PM

A sequel to PS:T = No, ****, no--it was perfect as it was. Well not perfect, it had huge glaring flaws, but the good parts were perfect (if you can just ignore combat and the bugs).

A game set in the Planescape setting = yes please. I love that setting, infinite amount of possibilities and a game that was actually full of wonder.

Eldan

2011-05-17, 01:29 AM

True, absolutely true. If they dare bring TNO back, I'll learn how to build mail bombs.

Smight

2011-05-17, 02:27 AM

I have sinking feeling that even if sequal was made, it will be FPS or something horible as that, cause games this thays are all about "imer****ion":smallsigh:

Cespenar

2011-05-17, 02:47 AM

Though I'm more of a fan of old 2d RPGs, a 3rd person RPG (like, say, Fallout 3) would (in theory) be amazing if they were somehow be able to illustrate Sigil correctly.

That it would almost never happen is a moot point. I'm imagining, darnit!

Yora

2011-05-17, 02:53 AM

The biggest problem is the involvement of Obsidian. Those guys are not the same developer some of them were 12 years ago. Almost everything they touched turned into a total train wreck.

Gorgondantess

2011-05-17, 03:26 AM

True, absolutely true. If they dare bring TNO back, I'll learn how to build mail bombs.

And I'll help!:smallbiggrin:
Yeah, in the unlikely event that a Torment sequel is made, bringing back Nameless One (or, indeed, most of the cast) as more than brief cameos/references would be blasphemy.
Though, I do have much more faith in Obsidian than most. I found both Fallout: New Vegas and KOTOR II to be quite excellent games, buggy/unfinished nature notwithstanding. The writing was good, the characters were good, it wasn't trite or cliche or overdone (for the most part), and it was quite engaging. What more can you honestly ask for from an RPG?

Blayze

2011-05-17, 07:10 AM

And the original Planescape: Torment?

Don't get me wrong. I love the game and think it's among the best out there.

But that doesn't mean it didn't have a lot of problems.

Oh, I know Torment had its problems. But unlike Alpha Protocol, none of those problems caused triggers to not reset upon reloading an earlier game save. And unlike KotOR II, none of those problems involved the company just not bothering to code the endgame.

Edit: To clarify on the level of failure involved with the trigger issue... I died in the room where you gain the Awareness skill. Upon reloading? The NPCs didn't spawn. The items didn't spawn. I didn't get my ability. The end door couldn't be opened. Honestly, it's like they haven't even heard of Quality Control.

Eldan

2011-05-17, 07:17 AM

And I'll help!:smallbiggrin:
Yeah, in the unlikely event that a Torment sequel is made, bringing back Nameless One (or, indeed, most of the cast) as more than brief cameos/references would be blasphemy.
Though, I do have much more faith in Obsidian than most. I found both Fallout: New Vegas and KOTOR II to be quite excellent games, buggy/unfinished nature notwithstanding. The writing was good, the characters were good, it wasn't trite or cliche or overdone (for the most part), and it was quite engaging. What more can you honestly ask for from an RPG?

Brief References are okay.
"Did ye hear tha dark, cutter? 'tis said there's 'n area in tha wastes where even th' 'loths won't wander anymore. Say somethin' there's scribin' everthin' in th' death book, no matter what they send in. All carved-up like, with some kind of axe."

Zen Monkey

2011-05-17, 08:36 AM

I'm firmly of the belief that the original was one of the greatest games ever made, and my personal favorite video game.

However, another one would in no way diminish the original. If it's good, yay, more good times for me. If it's bad, I can still play the original. I'm a fan of Silent Hill too, but the failures of recent sequels haven't somehow decreased my fondness for the earlier games. I can just play the ones I like and ignore the ones I don't, like Highlander and Matrix sequels.

Also, for those that missed out on the original, it's available through a number of methods. A European developer re-released it on one dvd, and it works with more current versions of Windows as well.

Cogwheel

2011-05-17, 09:28 AM

Also, for those that missed out on the original, it's available through a number of methods. A European developer re-released it on one dvd, and it works with more current versions of Windows as well.

There's also GoG.com (http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/planescape_torment).

Squark

2011-05-17, 01:32 PM

Agreed, an Icewind Dale 2 style sequel (Different protagonists, same setting, some secondary characters return) would work much better than trying to continue where PST left off, even if I haven't played the game yet (still working my way through IWD 1, and I haven't even installed IWD 2)

Archpaladin Zousha

2011-05-17, 01:58 PM

Honestly, I don't think a remake or a sequel is an option for Planescape: Torment. The fanbase is too loyal and the nostalgia factor too strong. A sequel or remake could never hope to live up to the original, and thus it would be found wanting by all. It's sort of a sacred cow of RPG players, something they'd never abandon for anything.

Eldan

2011-05-17, 02:01 PM

arguskos

2011-05-17, 02:15 PM

I'd love another decent Planescape game. The setting has so much potential, and we've barely seen anything of the planes outside Sigil. Surely, they could come up with something. Just don't call it Torment 2 or something silly like that.
The Wheel would be exciting to experience properly for once. Can you imagine a Planescape game hubbed out of pre-Vecna Sigil where you sign on with a faction and the plot is unique based on which faction you're a member of? All of them weaving together into a massive metaplot? Gods, the beauty....

I can see it now, the Sinker protagonist in the Citadel Exhalus, arguing with a master of the Doomguard about universal entropy, while the Sensate protagonist lives vicariously through a warrior on Ysgard through a magic jar effect just for the thrill of it, and so on.

Sure, it's a pipedream, but man, it's a beautiful one. :smallcool:

Eldan

2011-05-17, 04:08 PM

Apparently, the Rogue Dao mods for NWN 2 are pretty good, but I haven't had time to try them yet.

Comet

2011-05-17, 05:19 PM

Apparently, the Rogue Dao mods for NWN 2 are pretty good, but I haven't had time to try them yet.

I'm pretty sure they are still in the process of making the first part, Purgatorio, of their Planescape trilogy. There have been playable versions out with some sidequests and such, and it does look very Planescape and very cool, but the main gameplay content just wasn't there the last time I saw.

I'm still looking forward to it but, like most projects like this, they really are taking their sweet time about it.

Oh, this is all pretty dated info on my part. If there has been more progress on Purgatorio since I last checked (about half a year ago?) then I would like to know! As I said, it did look really cool and the team seems like a bunch of creative writers and good builders but I don't want to play the story until it is actually done. Half-done tease releases only make me sad :smalltongue:

edit: looking over the Rogue Dao forums, there's a lot of dead silence in there but also a couple optimistic remarks about people having a lot of free time this summer. Fingers crossed.

Archpaladin Zousha

2011-05-17, 08:14 PM

Apparently, the Rogue Dao mods for NWN 2 are pretty good, but I haven't had time to try them yet.

Wait that's still in the works? I thought Rogue Dao went under. :smallconfused:

VanBuren

2011-05-17, 08:25 PM

I'm pretty sure they are still in the process of making the first part, Purgatorio, of their Planescape trilogy. There have been playable versions out with some sidequests and such, and it does look very Planescape and very cool, but the main gameplay content just wasn't there the last time I saw.

I'm still looking forward to it but, like most projects like this, they really are taking their sweet time about it.

Oh, this is all pretty dated info on my part. If there has been more progress on Purgatorio since I last checked (about half a year ago?) then I would like to know! As I said, it did look really cool and the team seems like a bunch of creative writers and good builders but I don't want to play the story until it is actually done. Half-done tease releases only make me sad :smalltongue:

edit: looking over the Rogue Dao forums, there's a lot of dead silence in there but also a couple optimistic remarks about people having a lot of free time this summer. Fingers crossed.

Ah yes. A mod that's been 5 years in the making.

Eldan

2011-05-18, 03:28 AM

Really? I thought Purgatorio was actually finished at some point. Ah, well. I don't even have NWN 2.

Mx.Silver

2011-05-18, 06:58 PM

Eh, I'm not sure about a sequel really. I kind of felt The Nameless One's story was basically done by the end of the game. I'd welcome a game set in Planescape though, as it's one of the only interesting settings/concepts to ever come-out of D&D, especially if they managed to keep a similar feel to it (i.e. pointedly subverting and avoiding most of the tropes and cliches that are almost ubiquitous with RPGs).

I played a bit of PS:T after it came out on GoG, and it had good art. The interface was a horror show*, but the visuals were decent enough. I did use the mod that allowed the game to run in modern resolutions though, which undoubtedly helped.

My basic conclusion was pretty much, if I wanted an RPG about a guy with amnesia, I'd go play the Witcher instead.

Now, I like The Witcher, but it's not *about* a guy with amnesia. It just stars a man who happens to have lost some of his memories, but this isn't really all that important to the story or his character. Geralt's lost memory has negligeable impact on the story, and is there purely as a device to compensate for him being an established character from a series of books hardly anyone playing the game will have read.

Torment, on the other hand, designs most of it's story around it. I agree that Witcher's combat is leagues ahead of Torment's (there's a reason most fights in Torment are avoidable), but the reverse is equally true concerning the writing and characters.

VanBuren

2011-05-18, 07:17 PM

Really? I thought Purgatorio was actually finished at some point. Ah, well. I don't even have NWN 2.

IIRC, the demo came out in November.

Lord of the Helms

2011-05-19, 12:43 AM

Now, I like The Witcher, but it's not *about* a guy with amnesia. It just stars a man who happens to have lost some of his memories, but this isn't really all that important to the story or his character. Geralt's lost memory has negligeable impact on the story, and is there purely as a device to compensate for him being an established character from a series of books hardly anyone playing the game will have read.

Torment, on the other hand, designs most of it's story around it. I agree that Witcher's combat is leagues ahead of Torment's (there's a reason most fights in Torment are avoidable), but the reverse is equally true concerning the writing and characters.

This is mostly correct, but while the combat system of Torment is not the game's strongest point, I wouldn't neccessarily call it bad or a reason to avoid most fights. It has some unhandy controls and doesn't allow for the tactical depth of, say, Baldur's Gate, but it is pretty serviceable and it's perfectly possible to have fun with the combat in and of itself. There's a decent selection of spells and abilities, you still have to take care of using your sturdier characters to protect the squishier ones and combating enemies the right way.

Ultimately, though, combat in Torment is a weak point comared to the rest of the game. This only means that while dialogues, NPCs, storyline, freedom of choice and development of your own character are pretty much the pinnacle of all writing in video game history, combat is merely serviceable.

Cespenar

2011-05-19, 02:24 AM

This is mostly correct, but while the combat system of Torment is not the game's strongest point, I wouldn't neccessarily call it bad or a reason to avoid most fights. It has some unhandy controls and doesn't allow for the tactical depth of, say, Baldur's Gate, but it is pretty serviceable and it's perfectly possible to have fun with the combat in and of itself. There's a decent selection of spells and abilities, you still have to take care of using your sturdier characters to protect the squishier ones and combating enemies the right way.

Ultimately, though, combat in Torment is a weak point comared to the rest of the game. This only means that while dialogues, NPCs, storyline, freedom of choice and development of your own character are pretty much the pinnacle of all writing in video game history, combat is merely serviceable.

Spot on.

Also to note, I find Witcher's combat system highly overrated.

Gorgondantess

2011-05-19, 02:33 AM

Spot on.

Also to note, I find Witcher's combat system highly overrated.

I concur. In fact, I personally found it rather painful. That is, until I just started maxing out the fire spell and just spamming that every combat. Then I breezed past everything.
That was only until the final boss fight where I was spammed with an infinite amount of creatures immune to fire. Never actually beat the game, due to that.:smallannoyed:

Lord of the Helms

2011-05-19, 03:56 AM

Spot on.

Also to note, I find Witcher's combat system highly overrated.

Combat in The Witcher was pretty much OK, what kept it interesting was having to find the right feel for timing attacks properly and at least some elements of evasive movement. It wasn't perfect, mainly because the spells were so poorly balanced going from good (Aard) to barely short of useless (Yrden, shield thing and mind control) to WTFHAX (Igni The All-Slayer) that a lot of potential for further depth built upon a solid swordfighting base was lost. But it was definitely fun, even though Group Style made mowing down hordes of enemies a bit too easy.

GolemsVoice

2011-05-19, 05:40 AM

I agree, I don't see a direct sequel working - the story of the Nameless one was self-contained and concluded perfectly, no need to carry on with it. Now, another game in the Planescape setting, and one that some of the PS:T characters would appear in, that'd be something I'd be interested in, especially if they do as great a job at dialogue and storytelling as the original. The main problem is I don't see them pulling the amnesia story all over again without it seeming very contrived, but at the same time amnesia and rediscovering your past was such an integral part to this game (as opposed to, say, The Witcher where it was just a plot device to justify your character being starting-level and had little to no impact on the actual story) that a sequel won't ever come close to the same "feeling" without it.

They could do his backstory. If I remember correctly, he had lived through quite some adventures, which are sometimes referenced in the original game. After all, he probably had a few hundred, if not thousand, incarnations, each one with their own, distinct personality.

Mx.Silver

2011-05-19, 11:32 AM

I concur. In fact, I personally found it rather painful. That is, until I just started maxing out the fire spell and just spamming that every combat. Then I breezed past everything.
I actually found the paralysis spell to be more Game-breaking to be honest, if only because a surprising number of bosses are vulnerable to it and can then be OHKO'd with relative impunity and you don't need to invest much in it to be able to use it effectively.

That was only until the final boss fight where I was spammed with an infinite amount of creatures immune to fire. Never actually beat the game, due to that.:smallannoyed:
Well, it is meant to be one of the hardest fights in the game (the optional boss fight after it against the King of the hunt is actually considerably easier), so it wouldn't be right if you could just spam your way through it (although if you haven't invested in the shield spell, the group styles and stocked up on potions then you are going to be rather screwed).

VanBuren

2011-05-19, 11:49 AM

They could do his backstory. If I remember correctly, he had lived through quite some adventures, which are sometimes referenced in the original game. After all, he probably had a few hundred, if not thousand, incarnations, each one with their own, distinct personality.

Of course, you're doomed to failure with each one ultimately.

GolemsVoice

2011-05-19, 12:16 PM

Cogwheel

2011-05-19, 12:22 PM

But they could make it so that you recognize a lot of the things that you do (will have done?) from the original game, and set it up so that, while the incarnations were doomed to fail, they set it up so that there would eventually be one that WOULDN'T fail.

They could also take you through the first incarnation. The big crime that he originally committed, whatever it was.

Also, I don't think I'd be able to play the practical incarnation.

VanBuren

2011-05-19, 05:08 PM

They could also take you through the first incarnation. The big crime that he originally committed, whatever it was.

Honestly, I think that's the worst thing they could do, even as it would be the most tempting. Because whatever they end up telling you about that crime, it's going to seem lackluster. If it picked up after that with his quest to find Ravel and become immortal... maybe. But his crime is something that should be left unexplained.

Cogwheel

2011-05-19, 09:54 PM

Honestly, I think that's the worst thing they could do, even as it would be the most tempting. Because whatever they end up telling you about that crime, it's going to seem lackluster. If it picked up after that with his quest to find Ravel and become immortal... maybe. But his crime is something that should be left unexplained.

Oh, I know. Wouldn't be a good idea, but it's certainly a possible and tempting one.

VanBuren

2011-05-20, 12:16 AM

Oh, I know. Wouldn't be a good idea, but it's certainly a possible and tempting one.

Maybe if it was something on the scale of... say, starting the Blood War or something.

Cespenar

2011-05-20, 12:36 AM

Maybe if it was something on the scale of... say, starting the Blood War or something.

Was that implied somewhere? Because it vaguely feels that I've heard this before, and it's been years before I actually played the game.

Cogwheel

2011-05-20, 12:41 AM

Was that implied somewhere? Because it vaguely feels that I've heard this before, and it's been years before I actually played the game.

Popular theory, never mentioned anywhere.

Lord of the Helms

2011-05-20, 01:07 AM

Maybe if it was something on the scale of... say, starting the Blood War or something.

But the Blood War is a good thing. You'd have to do something on that scale, but evil, to qualify.

But even then, I think not revealing it would be better. I don't mind a sequel where TNO and his actions are referenced, and maybe we get to chat with Dakkon or Annah (or, hilariously, Nordom) about him in some way or another. But TNO as a PC in a sequel? Or prequel? No. No No No No No No No. Do not want.

Eldan

2011-05-20, 12:41 PM

There's tons of fan theories about his crime. One of the stranger ones I heard was the TNO was Zerthimon and his crime the Proclamation of Two Skies.

VanBuren

2011-05-20, 04:18 PM

There's tons of fan theories about his crime. One of the stranger ones I heard was the TNO was Zerthimon and his crime the Proclamation of Two Skies.

This is why I'd really never like to find out what it was. Because it's infinitely less cool when we can identify it.

Mx.Silver

2011-05-20, 06:08 PM

Honestly, I think that's the worst thing they could do, even as it would be the most tempting. Because whatever they end up telling you about that crime, it's going to seem lackluster.
I very much agree. See, the whole point of the crime is that it works on the same principle as the rule that you shouldn't show the monster in horror stories. Even though you won't have a clear idea of what it is, your imagination is automatically going to be filling the gap and it will be doing this by drawing on your own relevent emotional experiences (guilt in this case) so by leaving the crime ambiguous the game is making you subconsciously answer the question: 'what would *I* have to have to done that would make me want to go to those lengths to correct it?'.
Not only would a definitive answer be unable to compete with this, but there's a real likelihood that, by setting the answer in an obviously fictional and strange world it actually make The First Incarnation's decision less relatable.
This is why I strongly suspect that the decision to leave the nature of the crime unknown was intentional. As no elements of the plot hinge on what it actually was, there's simply no reason to forego the advantages of leaving it up to the player's imagination.

VanBuren

2011-05-20, 08:04 PM

I very much agree. See, the whole point of the crime is that it works on the same principle as the rule that you shouldn't show the monster in horror stories. Even though you won't have a clear idea of what it is, your imagination is automatically going to be filling the gap and it will be doing this by drawing on your own relevent emotional experiences (guilt in this case) so by leaving the crime ambiguous the game is making you subconsciously answer the question: 'what would *I* have to have to done that would make me want to go to those lengths to correct it?'.
Not only would a definitive answer be unable to compete with this, but there's a real likelihood that, by setting the answer in an obviously fictional and strange world it actually make The First Incarnation's decision less relatable.
This is why I strongly suspect that the decision to leave the nature of the crime unknown was intentional. As no elements of the plot hinge on what it actually was, there's simply no reason to forego the advantages of leaving it up to the player's imagination.

Agreed. I'd also say that it's in a similar vein that we never got to learn what TNO's real name was, though there was a bit more packed in that specifically.

EDIT: Especially interesting point about the subconscious filling in the emotional experience. I hadn't quite thought of it from that angle.

Tvtyrant

2011-05-22, 05:50 PM

But the Blood War is a good thing. You'd have to do something on that scale, but evil, to qualify.

But even then, I think not revealing it would be better. I don't mind a sequel where TNO and his actions are referenced, and maybe we get to chat with Dakkon or Annah (or, hilariously, Nordom) about him in some way or another. But TNO as a PC in a sequel? Or prequel? No. No No No No No No No. Do not want.

Except that the Devils only became evil due to the Blood War. Before that they were good celestials, and then they got warped due to their fight with the Demons. The Blood War turned a tremendous amount of "Lawful Good" into "Lawful Evil."

factotum

2011-05-23, 01:33 AM

Except that the Devils only became evil due to the Blood War. Before that they were good celestials, and then they got warped due to their fight with the Demons. The Blood War turned a tremendous amount of "Lawful Good" into "Lawful Evil."

What? Where on earth did you read that? It's not something I ever heard of!

VanBuren

2011-05-23, 02:27 AM

What? Where on earth did you read that? It's not something I ever heard of!

It sounds vaguely familiar, and it may have been a canon explanation at one time. Whether it was or not at the time of PS:T, I doubt.

Eldan

2011-05-23, 02:36 AM

Sounds like some of the stuff they wrote up in the Fiendish Codex, where Asmodeus was the archon charged with stopping the demons, originally.

Not Planescape canon, though.

Gorgondantess

2011-05-23, 03:00 AM

Sounds like some of the stuff they wrote up in the Fiendish Codex, where Asmodeus was the archon charged with stopping the demons, originally.

Not Planescape canon, though.

Yep. It can be found in Fiendish Codex II.

VanBuren

2011-05-23, 04:09 AM

According to GameBanshee, this is Avellone's most recent word:

The Planescape universe provides a lot of opportunities for great narratives and adventures. As such, Torment shouldn't be a constraint for further adventures in the universe - the story in Torment I felt ended as it should, and I wouldn't want to do a narrative follow-up to that title. The Planescape universe is a little too rich to start imposing a sequel framework on it like that.

So basically, no sequel to Torment, but no objection to another game in the Planescape setting.

Which is, IMO, a great answer.

Blayze

2011-05-23, 08:01 AM

But the Blood War is a good thing. You'd have to do something on that scale, but evil, to qualify.

Isn't the Blood War also a terrible thing, though? It touches all planes, scars countless worlds--and the theoretically infinite mercenary forces brought in to bear on both sides means a hell of a lot more mortal souls damned to the Lower Planes through War involvement than there otherwise would be.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-23, 09:56 AM

Isn't the Blood War also a terrible thing, though? It touches all planes, scars countless worlds--and the theoretically infinite mercenary forces brought in to bear on both sides means a hell of a lot more mortal souls damned to the Lower Planes through War involvement than there otherwise would be.

It's a terrible thing, but it's also a technically Good thing in that it keeps the literally infinite forces of the Abyss in check. If the Nine Hells were not there constantly waging war again the demons, they would be able to sweep over and annihilate everything else in the multiverse.

VanBuren

2011-05-23, 12:27 PM

It's a terrible thing, but it's also a technically Good thing in that it keeps the literally infinite forces of the Abyss in check. If the Nine Hells were not there constantly waging war again the demons, they would be able to sweep over and annihilate everything else in the multiverse.

Although it apparently ended in 4E with a victory for the devils, although that may or may not only be FR-canon.

Driderman

2011-05-23, 02:03 PM

Although it apparently ended in 4E with a victory for the devils, although that may or may not only be FR-canon.

I think they just hand-waved it away for the default setting

Lord of the Helms

2011-05-23, 11:26 PM

According to GameBanshee, this is Avellone's most recent word:

So basically, no sequel to Torment, but no objection to another game in the Planescape setting.

Which is, IMO, a great answer.

I'd say a perfect answer, pretty much. Although, as said, guest appearances by some of TNO's companions would be something I'd find really cool in a new Planescape game.

Cogwheel

2011-05-23, 11:33 PM

I'd say a perfect answer, pretty much. Although, as said, guest appearances by some of TNO's companions would be something I'd find really cool in a new Planescape game.

Sure, but we don't know if any of them will show up.

Lord of the Helms

2011-05-24, 12:08 AM

Yeah, all talk on a new Planescape game is speculation. I'm not even sure I remember what happens to your companions at the end of PS:T if they all survive; some are more and some less likely to still be around and appear in another possible game in the Planescape setting, though this being the planes, almost anything goes since death is not the end (Vhailor, I think, is the only one with a chance of actually being completely gone).

Cogwheel

2011-05-24, 12:13 AM

(Vhailor, I think, is the only one with a chance of actually being completely gone).

Good. He terrifies me. More than Ignus.

Lord of the Helms

2011-05-24, 04:45 AM

Good. He terrifies me. More than Ignus.

Good thing you can cause Vhailor to let go and essentially cease to exist.

I'm pretty sure he's the only companion you can do that to, everyone else could, at worst, die and could end up in another plane. Though I'm fuzzy as to how death would work for some of them, especially Grace, Nordom and Morte.

Cogwheel

2011-05-24, 05:18 AM

Good thing you can cause Vhailor to let go and essentially cease to exist.

I'm pretty sure he's the only companion you can do that to, everyone else could, at worst, die and could end up in another plane. Though I'm fuzzy as to how death would work for some of them, especially Grace, Nordom and Morte.

Yeah, I know. You can do that. But still...

"No, you do not see. Pray you never will."

Calemyr

2011-05-24, 07:32 AM

I'll admit it's been a while, but...

Technically, Morte is the only one of the companions who definitely survived the game (for a specific value of survived, as he was already dead and damned before the game began). Everyone else dies in the fortress, and can be revived, but Morte was only feigning death. If you try to revive him, he just jumps up and allows you to use that revival on someone else.

And since the fortress is situated where it is, I always read it to mean that death there could be final even for technically immortal individuals such as TNO and Grace. Wasn't that the entire point of the Coaxmetal "solution"?

GodotIsW8ing4U

2011-06-21, 03:42 PM

Okay, an actual SEQUEL to Planescape: Torment? No. No, please no. Torment needs no sequel. It had no sequel hook, it's complete, the game is really better off being its own story inside one game, and trying to make something that acts as a true sequel to Torment will just ruin Torment.

However, creating another game in the Planescape setting? This I can wholeheartedly endorse. God knows we need more Planescape stuff. D&D Online should have centered around Sigil, not Stormreach.

GodotIsW8ing4U

2011-06-21, 03:50 PM

I think they just hand-waved it away for the default setting

Actually, in Points of Light the Blood War never started in the first place. The Abyss formed in the madness of Tharizdun, who is even now chained at the bottom of its infinite layers, under the Elemental Chaos, while Baator has always been in the Astral Sea (well, once it was in the Lattice of Heaven, but the Dawn War broke the Lattice wide open). Baator was once not-hell, and Asmodeus was the lieutenant of its ruler, but he managed to acquire great power and overthrow the ruler of Baator, whose name has been lost to time. While dying, however, this god managed to get the last laugh: he used the last of his power to trap Asmodeus in Baator forever, so Asmodeus couldn't leave. Asmodeus did, however, managed to negotiate with the other gods to gain a limited ability to leave Baator in exchange for his aid in the Dawn War, and he's done everything he possibly can to exploit that ever since.

The closest thing Points of Light has to the Blood War is the eternal battle in Chernoggar between the forces of Bane and the hordes of Gruumsh, since Chernoggar came to be when Gruumsh piloted his own dominion right into Bane's in an attempt to conquer it. The devils of Baator and the demons of the Abyss are too far from each other to wage any sort of protracted war, though they do skirmish occasionally in the mortal world, Feywild, and Shadowfell.

4E's approach to the planes is very very different from Planescape's in a lot of ways, but taken on its own it's a very nice Planescape/Spelljammer blend. I'd gladly play in that setting.