Infinite attacks per round/infinite movement

[Mystify]

the framework of this build is simple, but you need 2 characters cooperating. I'll skip all the prereq feats.

First, you need Robilar’s Gambit. Get an AoO whenever someone attacks you.
second, take improved combat reflexes [epic] so you can take an unlimited number of attacks of opportunity each round.

next, be small(not crucial),and weild a dagger. this will deal 1d3 damage per hit.
then, get DR. lycanthropy can get you 10/silver. Make sure the dagger is not silver.
penalize your str to 1. This is -4 to damage, on a d3 weapon.

You now have a dagger attack that deals 1d3-4 damage. you will only do 1 damage per hit.

get an ally with this same build. Both activate robilar's gambit. This gives +4 damage against them if you attack, bringing your damage up to 1d3. On a crit, you deal 2d3, max 6. You cannot penetrate damage reduction. IF you are medium, it instead caps out at 8, which still doesn't penetrate.

So, you attack your ally, and do no damage. They get an AoO since you attacked them, and attack you in return for no damage. You get to take an AoO in response to this, and so on. You keep trading blows until the other drops, but you are incapable of hurting them. You have now achieved an infinite number of attacks in one round. Amusing, but useless.

Next, if you add opportunistic tactician to the mix, you may take a 5' step after you make an AoO. This does not have a limit of one per round like sidestep does. You can both use this to get an infinite number of 5' steps. Congratulations, you can now go anywhere you can walk to in a single round. You can stop the infinite chain at any time by choosing not to take you AoO.

Now all we need is a way to deal damage to other things while in this state, and you can travel everywhere in the world and kill everything. Any ideas?

[Keld Denar]

Explosive Weapon + Fire Resistance? Creates a little AoE around you every time you hit.

[faceroll]

Can those 5' steps be used to get through difficult terrain?
I guess you could be flying (perfect maneuverability).


My favorite free tandem move are two buddies making sleight of hand checks on each other as free actions.

[Runestar]

The attack from robilar's gambit triggers only at the end of the attack.

You need karmic strike for that. In fact, I remember joking about it with my friends. 2 fighters with karmic strike and epic combat reflexes (infinite AoOs) would trigger an infinite loop if either one of them attacked the other.:smallamused:

[Mystify]

Robilar's triggers at the end of the attack, which means you attack them, and then they hit you. I don't see what you mean when it doesn't work. Karmic strike also occurs after the attack, but they have to hit you. This means that as soon as one of you misses, the combo is broken. You can get around that by invoking multiple attacks for each AoO, but robilar's is simpler.

[Terumitsu]

Good sir, this is incredibly silly.

I applaud you for your great contribution.

[Blue Bandit]

My question is, how would this fight appear to a third party spectator? A round only represents 6 seconds of real time. So in order to fit in infinite amount of attacks in that round, time would have to literally stop for everyone not involved in the fight.

So would observers simply see a blur of motion? or would the combatants be moving so fast that you couldn't see them with the naked eye?

Sorry for providing even more than useless questions.:smalltongue:

[balistafreak]

My question is, how would this fight appear to a third party spectator? A round only represents 6 seconds of real time. So in order to fit in infinite amount of attacks in that round, time would have to literally stop for everyone not involved in the fight.

So would observers simply see a blur of motion? or would the combatants be moving so fast that you couldn't see them with the naked eye?

You know in Dragonball Z, where one guy rains a million punches on another before exclaiming that he doesn't believe the other guy's not hurt?

Well, picture that, but both of them doing it to each other.

And they're screaming across the landscape at an arbitrarily fast speed, at velocity: Distance to destination/6 seconds.

Watatatatatatatata sound effect optional.

[The-Mage-King]

WRYYYYYYY!!


Ahem. So it looks sorta like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTe-Z_6UZTo)? (up to 0:12)

[Mystify]

Only moreso.

[sreservoir]

second, take improved combat reflexes [epic] so you can take an unlimited number of attacks of opportunity each round.

yeah, but by then the spellcasters can destroy the universe as an immediate action, so what use is it?

[Mystify]

yeah, but by then the spellcasters can destroy the universe as an immediate action, so what use is it?
This is of no use. Its an exercise in rule twisting. And this exploit is 1 component away from destroying the universe without magic in 1 round, and a small handful of feats.

[JaronK]

Old or older dragons can take epic feats, so a Dragonwrought Kobold with Dex 21, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Combat Reflexes is good to go on this one by level 6 or so. You'll need the appropriate DR of course.

Consider using a Poison Ring for your attacks as that's a touch attack for either 1 or no damage (I don't remember which), regardless of anything else.

JaronK

[Sucrose]

Well, while this requires psionics, the specific ability is still nonmagical.

Get into War Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm). Acquire the Sweeping Strike ability. Your attacks now threaten any enemy adjacent to your partner. You now have infinite attacks on everyone you can reach by your present mode of movement. This is, however, of limited utility if they also have DR.

[Mystify]

Well, while this requires psionics, the specific ability is still nonmagical.

Get into War Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm). Acquire the Sweeping Strike ability. Your attacks now threaten any enemy adjacent to your partner. You now have infinite attacks on everyone you can reach by your present mode of movement. This is, however, of limited utility if they also have DR.

A good start.

[Sucrose]

A good start.

Glad you think so. I do have a bit more to contribute, upon consideration. Very few things have resistance to Sonic damage. As such, you can cast Resist Energy and Sonic Weaponry on both of you (both level 2 spells for a sorceror or wizard). Since extra dice aren't multiplied on crit, you never exceed your energy resistance, so you now have an infinite series of sonic dice for the enemy to deal with as well.

[Mystify]

ah, yes. Sonic damage, good thought. Very few things are resistant to it. So the question becomes: what have DR >7 and sonic resitance>3? (I've gone up to medium creatures, since the DR is good enough to block it still, even with the +1 enchantment bonus). Thats the main categry of things that this won't kill. That, and things with regen.

[Douglas]

Old or older dragons can take epic feats, so a Dragonwrought Kobold with Dex 21, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Combat Reflexes is good to go on this one by level 6 or so. You'll need the appropriate DR of course.
Not unless you can cheese your way to the +12 BAB required for Robilar's Gambit by then. Karmic Strike is not a viable substitute, as it would make the chain stop as soon as someone rolls as 1.

[The-Mage-King]

Not unless you can cheese your way to the +12 BAB required for Robilar's Gambit by then. Karmic Strike is not a viable substitute, as it would make the chain stop as soon as someone rolls as 1.

Skill focus (Diplomacy) and a dip into Marshal would do it. Note that you need the feat before the dip, though.

[Douglas]

Skill focus (Diplomacy) and a dip into Marshal would do it. Note that you need the feat before the dip, though.
Bonus feats of the player's choice do not get to ignore prerequisites unless they specifically say so.

[The-Mage-King]

Bonus feats of the player's choice do not get to ignore prerequisites unless they specifically say so.

Show me where it says that.

Otherwise, my suggestion is valid.

[CheshireCatAW]

Show me where it says that.

Otherwise, my suggestion is valid.

I think it's the other way around. He's proven that there's similar abilities except for the specific exception "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.".

If any bonus feat allowed you to take any feat while ignoring prerequisites, it would be unnecessary to call this one out on this specific bonus feat. You would just have to call it a Bonus Feat and be done with it.

Burden of proof is on you, now. Show where it says that all bonus feats ignore prerequisites.

EDIT: I found a reference to not needing prerequisites for a bonus feat but it comes directly from the "Reading the Monster Entries (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm)" section. It states "Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites."

The quote seems to support the argument that bonus feats ignore prerequisites but when taken in context it seems to be a specific ruling for Monster Manual creatures to justify them having advanced feats without filling the stat block with feats necessary to give a creature an ability it would logically have.

[The-Mage-King]

The part where, on multiple classes, it specifically calls out the fact that you MUST meet the prereqs for any given bonus feat.


A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.


The wizard must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.


Therefore, since the text usually calls out exceptions to the rules... That would make these be the exceptions, and the standard rules be that you get the bonus feat regardless of prereqs.

EDIT: I can play tennis like this all day. Try me.

[CheshireCatAW]

It seems like each bonus feat is given the "exception to the rule" caveat then. However, with your explanation, what's to keep any character (Marshal who selected the Skill Focus (Diplomacy) feat before becoming a marshal, for example) with bonus feats from taking epic feats? It seems to me that the RAI was that the character must still meet the prereqs for the feat he's selecting, but intent is debatable without an original author explicitly stating as much.

[The-Mage-King]

It seems like each bonus feat is given the "exception to the rule" caveat then. However, with your explanation, what's to keep any character (Marshal who selected the Skill Focus (Diplomacy) feat before becoming a marshal, for example) with bonus feats from taking epic feats? It seems to me that the RAI was that the character must still meet the prereqs for the feat he's selecting, but intent is debatable without an original author explicitly stating as much.

Absolutely nothing! By RAW, it's doable. Which is why Marshal 1 is such a great dip!

[CheshireCatAW]

So every Wizard should take Wizard 1/Marshal 1/Wizard X as long as they take Skill Focus (Diplomacy) at first level so they can get Epic Spellcasting at level 2? I do not buy it. It seems counter to the spirit of the rules.

EDIT: Absolutely nothing what? Is that toward me or someone else?

[Mystify]

There are places where it specifically says that you need the prerequisites for your bonus feats. There are also places where it says you don't need them. In fact, the only places I know of that it says you don't need the prerequisites are places where it grants you a specific feat. ranger can get point blank shot without meeting prerequisites, a fighter can take a bonus feat of his choice if he meets the prerequisites. You can't use the lack of clarification to support ignoring prerequisites. Since ignoring prerequisites is definitely the exception, you can't assume it from a non-specified case.

You can't just take a point of slight ambiguity and declare that it is RAW to interpret it in the most absurd way possible.

"Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat."

There is a specific rule that you must meet prerequisites.

" A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat,"
Here is a place where they specifically reinforce the general rule

"A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them."
This is a place where is draws a specific exception to the rule.

"If the ranger selects archery, he is treated as having the Rapid Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat."
Here is a place where you are "treated as having the feat", which technically doesn't give it to you, you just act like you have it.

"Feat

A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability."
Here is a place where it does not specify, so it defaults to the general rule

" Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. "
Here is a place that tells you that creatures granted bonus feats by their race don't need to meet its pre-reqs.

Anyone even attempting to get any feat without prereqs should be slapped unless it specifically states that it is an exception.

Edit: Marshal 1 is such a great dip because you get an aura that allows you to apply your charisma bonus to all sorts of crazy things.

like:
Master of Tactics: Bonus on damage rolls when flanking.
Over the Top: Bonus on damage rolls when charging.

If you are already charisma based, either of these auras is devastating. Its easily the marshals best feature, and it comes in at full effect at level 1. The only thing it lacks is flexibility with it. So, depending on your party, you either give a huge damage boost to everyone who is flanking, which is very frequent, or you buff the uber-charger even more.

[The-Mage-King]

So every Wizard should take Wizard 1/Marshal 1/Wizard X as long as they take Skill Focus (Diplomacy) at first level so they can get Epic Spellcasting at level 2? I do not buy it. It seems counter to the spirit of the rules.

EDIT: Absolutely nothing what? Is that toward me or someone else?

No, they shouldn't. I'm only arguing this point because this discussion has yet to have been had on here this week.

As for the "Absolutely nothing" was directed at your "what's to stop... from taking Epic feats?"


Though a better way to have put my rebuttal is...

"The player's sense of fair play."

[Greenish]

The part where, on multiple classes, it specifically calls out the fact that you MUST meet the prereqs for any given bonus feat.

Therefore, since the text usually calls out exceptions to the rules... That would make these be the exceptions, and the standard rules be that you get the bonus feat regardless of prereqs.It also calls out specifically when you get to ignore prerequisites, such as monk or ranger, so obviously that's an exception to the rule too.

Which raises the question of what, exactly, is the rule? :smalltongue:

[sreservoir]

Not unless you can cheese your way to the +12 BAB required for Robilar's Gambit by then. Karmic Strike is not a viable substitute, as it would make the chain stop as soon as someone rolls as 1.

considering the goal is to achieve infinites by using old dragon cheese, why not use automatic qualification to take one of dragonblood sub levels?

[Otomodachi]

Consider using a whip and leather armour so that you don't need to bother with the DR? Does the whip's text about not threatening squares matter for this use of AOOs?

[mykelyk]

Adamantine armor?

[JaronK]

Which raises the question of what, exactly, is the rule? :smalltongue:

It's actually right at the beginning of the feats section of the PHB, under "prerequisites." It even says that bonus feats (such as Fighter bonus feats) require prerequisites to select or use the feat. Note that if you don't select the feat (such as a War Domain Cleric getting Weapon Focus) you can still have it, because prerequisites only matter for selecting and using it. But it does mean that technically, a War Domain Cleric 1 can't use Weapon Focus even though he has it... he has to wait until level 2 before it takes effect. Obviously that's not intentional but there it is.

JaronK