3.5e Gestalt: Good Warblade Secondary?

[Rhaegar14]

Hello all. I'm getting set up for a 3.5e Gestalt campaign starting at Level 6, and planning on taking Warblade as my more-or-less primary class. The character is a Drow (terrible optimization choice, I know, but I picked this for fluff). We're getting extra point-buy, but the DM hasn't decided how much just yet.

My question to the community; what is a strong secondary class that can support Warblade levels? The secondary class will essentially be hobbled by five levels, as I'm taking Drow Paragon and dumping the Drow LA into this secondary column.

So far, my thought has been heavily-varied Rogue, using the UA variant that swaps out their Sneak Attack for Fighter Bonus Feats, and the Drow of the Underdark variant that swaps Trapfinding for Poison Use (though I may not end up going with this if we don't get any other skill monkeys). Getting Poison Use would be more for fluff; again, I know this is a terrible choice so far as optimization.

[Eldariel]

Factotum [Dungeonscape]. Int-based, gets you Int to everything for Inspiration Points, 6+Int skills with all skills in the game in class, and eventually extra Standard Actions for extra Strikes (class level 8 so level 13 with the 5-level offset). It's a godlike secondary class for a Warblade. Even gets few arcane spell-likes which can be used as buffs (though not many; if you want to play a purely mundane badass you don't really need them - the class is awesome without them). Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) would expand the Inspiration Point pool to enable a bit heavier novas; the base allotment is quite conservative.

You can, in addition, dip things like Swashbuckler (Int to damage as precision damage on finessable weapons), Barbarian (obvious; Pounce from Spirit Lion Totem [Complete Champion] is really good in conjunction with Charge-maneuvers, particularly Bounding Assault [Diamond Mind 4]) or this Rogue you considered (2 levels is more than enough, frankly; gets you Poison Use, 2 feats and good skillz).

[Essence_of_War]

Concur with Eladriel.

Warblade//Factotum, even heavily hampered by LA/other classes factotum, is pretty fantastic.

Keep an eye on level 8 of factotum where you get your extra standard action ability. I would strongly consider taking at least 1 font of inspiration at or near this level to allow you to get two uses of cunning surge per encounter. I recall you not getting to do that until level 11 of factotum normally.

Edit: If you're not doing spiked chain tripping, you're missing out on a strong synergy as tripping is a check that you get your passive int bonus on as a factotum.

[Sir Swindle89]

I'm not sure how the recharge mechanics are worded but going sword sage might not be bad either. I'm geussing all the recharges specify "your x class amnuvers" but getting all your swordsage manuvers back with a full attack would be cool. Even without recharge hax being a real master of the nine would be pretty cool.

Take factotum till 8 then go fighter to pick up combat feats, all your other feats are Font of Inspiration, as a warblade you can never have enough standard actions.

Also the Warblade/Rogue/Shadow Lord of some faerun city nightcrawler build is a lot easier to pull off in gestalt (3 full attacks per round for the win!)

[Rhaegar14]

Reading through, and yeah, Factotum looks really good. Where is Font of Inspiration? I'm not seeing it in Feats.

[Essence_of_War]

It's a web enhancement for Dungeonscape.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606

[shadow_archmagi]

Artificer could support well too. Gives you some bonus feats, lets you craft your own gear, and even the basic infusions can be very helpful for pre-combat buffing.

There's nothing like saying "Oh, today we were ordered to kill some kobolds. So today, my sword is kobold bane!"

[Greenish]

Incarnate works in tandem with pretty much anything, giving you a bunch of options more.

[Rhaegar14]

Incarnate works in tandem with pretty much anything, giving you a bunch of options more.

I considered this, but Drow have -2 Con. This is a problem for Incarnates lol.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606)

Since you're taking Drow Paragon, you may as well go something like LA +2/ Martial Wizard or Cloistered Cleric 1/ Drow Paragon 3 on the other side to start with and have 2nd level spells, otherwise those +1 level of spellcasting will go to waste. If you get Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) that gets a Fighter bonus feat, I'd go focused specialist Transmuter and take the Immediate Magic ACF in PH2, and prepare nothing but no-somatic-component spells like Feather Fall, Swift Expeditious Retreat, and Wraithstrike, with at least two Lesser Rods of Extend. If Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) then get Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and probably the Celerity domain, and keep a variety of spells prepared for greater versatility. Your spellcasting stat won't need to be any higher than 12 for either of these, since you'd have to get it to 20 for any additional benefit other than save DCs.

After that go Factotum, and the character will have a lot more options available than he otherwise would have.

[Ernir]

I considered this, but Drow have -2 Con. This is a problem for Incarnates lol.

Not an insurmountable one, though. You'd be wanting to pump your Con anyway.

[Veyr]

Yeah, if you're female, a Cloistered Cleric dip would be excellent. Knowledge Devotion would be quite useful, and there are lots of other neat things you can get with it. Trickery Devotion (Lolth has the Trickery Domain I believe) is good, Chaos Devotion's not as good as Lawful Devotion but certainly not bad, the Darkness Domain gives Blind-Fight free, which is useful and may be worth considering as part of an entry to Master of the Nine (but this is almost certainly not worth it at all).

[Rhaegar14]

Yeah, if you're female, a Cloistered Cleric dip would be excellent. Knowledge Devotion would be quite useful, and there are lots of other neat things you can get with it. Trickery Devotion (Lolth has the Trickery Domain I believe) is good, Chaos Devotion's not as good as Lawful Devotion but certainly not bad, the Darkness Domain gives Blind-Fight free, which is useful and may be worth considering as part of an entry to Master of the Nine (but this is almost certainly not worth it at all).

Lol. I tried crossplaying once, and will never do it again. My character will be male, which means no Cleric levels.

Still, thank you all for your input. I appreciate it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Lol. I tried crossplaying once, and will never do it again. My character will be male, which means no Cleric levels.

Still, thank you all for your input. I appreciate it.

Again, take a one level dip into Wizard before taking Drow Paragon. Use Martial Wizard to get a Fighter bonus feat instead of Scribe Scroll. Go Transmuter and use the Immediate Magic ACF in PH2 instead of a familiar, to be able to gain a climb/fly/swim speed for a round if needed. Use Focused Specialist in CM and prepare spells which don't have somatic components, such as Feather Fall, Swift Expeditious Retreat, and Wraithstrike, all of which are only a swift action to cast. Get a few Lesser Rods of Extend for Wraithstrike and Swift Expeditious Retreat. You won't have many spells each day, but just having them available to do more than you otherwise would have will be well worth it.

[navar100]

Crusader or Swordsage. You can never have too many maneuvers.

Crusader gives you armor and bow proficiency, Devoted Spirit, Furious Counterstrike that synergizes well with Tiger Claw two-weapon fighting, and extra room for Stone Dragon and White Raven.

Swordsage gives you initiative bonus, AC bonus, Shadow Hand, and extra room for Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, and Stone Dragon.

[Rhaegar14]

Again, take a one level dip into Wizard before taking Drow Paragon. Use Martial Wizard to get a Fighter bonus feat instead of Scribe Scroll. Go Transmuter and use the Immediate Magic ACF in PH2 instead of a familiar, to be able to gain a climb/fly/swim speed for a round if needed. Use Focused Specialist in CM and prepare spells which don't have somatic components, such as Feather Fall, Swift Expeditious Retreat, and Wraithstrike, all of which are only a swift action to cast. Get a few Lesser Rods of Extend for Wraithstrike and Swift Expeditious Retreat. You won't have many spells each day, but just having them available to do more than you otherwise would have will be well worth it.

Was crunching some of it and realized a problem with this. Using the racial class for Drow, I could take Warblade/Factotum at level 1. This would be really nice because then I get more skills off the bat. But this causes a problem, because it means I couldn't have Drow Paragon 3 by 6th level and the +2 Dex that comes with it if I took the Wizard dip.

Now, the issue that this presents is the fact that I'm building TWF (see fluff about how basically every Drow warrior ever uses two weapons in melee), and without the +2 Dex from Drow Paragon 3, I'd need to either dump extra points to get a base 15 Dex instead of 13 to qualify by level 6, or I'd need to wait until level 9. Do you have any thoughts on how I can reconcile this issue?

[Greenish]

Gauntlets Gloves of Balanced Hand are 8000 gp in MIC.

There's also lesser drow somewhere.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This drow racial class (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) doesn't have to gain all the levels as early as possible. Even without any levels spent toward the +2 LA, you would still be considered a Drow and thus able to take Drow Paragon. You could even completely skip the second drow racial level (i.e. delay it until level 99) and you probably wouldn't really miss much.

Start out Warblade 6// Factotum 1/ Focused Martial Transmuter 1/ Drow 1/ Drow Paragon 3, then get more Warblade//Factotum from there, or possibly pick up Abjurant Champion and then Incantatrix 4+ and/or Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327).

I'll agree that you should get Gloves of the Balanced Hand, then get ITWF at 9th and sell the gloves and then GTWF at 12.

[Draz74]

I'll agree that you should get Gloves of the Balanced Hand, then get ITWF at 9th and sell the gloves and then GTWF at 12.

I wouldn't. Getting a third iterative attack (which will often miss with its built-in -10 penalty) isn't worth 2 feats in most builds, in my book. I say just take TWF and keep the Gloves.

[Escheton]

Archivist.
It's like a divine wizard. Nothing stopping a drow male from becoming one.

Besides that I concur with the factotum and artificer, as always for gestalt.

Also, have you considered half-drow or the 0 LA version?(note: the 0LA version changes all drow in the setting)

[Partysan]

When playing Drow I like one or two levels of hit-and-run-Fighter (it's the Drow ACF, can be combined with Dungeoncrasher if needed). Warblades are often feat-starved and it's a nice filler on a gestalt side that's clattered anyway. However if you opt to go for a gish secondary with Wizard and Swiftblade then it's not really viable, it's more for the "passive benefits" style of gestalt secondaries.

[Analytica]

The perfect Drow family good boy would be a Warblade//Wizard, I think.

[HalfDragonCube]

Archivist.
It's like a divine wizard. Nothing stopping a drow male from becoming one.

Besides that I concur with the factotum and artificer, as always for gestalt.

Also, have you considered half-drow or the 0 LA version?(note: the 0LA version changes all drow in the setting)

The idea was to pick up the drow paragon class which adds spellcasting based on your gender. If you are male, it improves your Wizard casting. If you are female, it advances your Cleric casting. While Archivist is a very good class and pretty much a 'divine wizard' as you say, then you gain nothing from those levels.

Anything Int-based works well with Warblade.

[dspeyer]

Psion (egoist) would give you some flexibility and a lot of self-buffs.

Binder is a classic in gestalt because the buffs last all day, saving you actions.

I might still go with feated rogue, though.

[HalfDragonCube]

How about Beguiler? It's Int-based, but you can both stab people and talk to them!

[dspeyer]

I suppose we should be asking what you want from the secondary. More fighting power? More options? Weakness-plugging? Following some sort of character theme?

[Jude_H]

I rather like Lurk for rounded saves, stealth skills, utility powers, Int synergy and doubling special effects on melee attacks.

/ducks

[Eldariel]

I suppose we should be asking what you want from the secondary. More fighting power? More options? Weakness-plugging? Following some sort of character theme?

Factotum gives all that. Including any character theme you desire :smallbiggrin: (all skills, malleable class features <3)

[dspeyer]

Factotum gives all that. Including any character theme you desire :smallbiggrin: (all skills, malleable class features <3)

Factotums are awesome, but let's not get carried away. They don't really add much to a warblade's combat prowess until cunning surge (a few small bonuses and easier to max out your key skills -- that's it). They do hardly anything for fix a warblade's weaknesses (will save, no flight, no ranged beyond bow proficiency). They certainly add option, and might help with a theme.

[Eldariel]

Factotums are awesome, but let's not get carried away. They don't really add much to a warblade's combat prowess until cunning surge (a few small bonuses and easier to max out your key skills -- that's it). They do hardly anything for fix a warblade's weaknesses (will save, no flight, no ranged beyond bow proficiency). They certainly add option, and might help with a theme.

L0l. They add Int to Will-saves with an IP. That should help. They also add Int to To Hit and Damaz, if that's necessary. Als0, they add Int to AC. And Int on all phys skillz including Jump (HAI TIGER CLAW). And they can get Sneak Attackz and they get a couple o' spellz. I mean, those helpz. Factotum/Warblade can fly on his own power, if he so desires on level 5 (Alter Selfz), and multiple times per day on level 8.

And why am I typing like this today? No idea. Maybe I snapped.

[Rhaegar14]

To answer questions of what I want:

- Hide and Move Silently would be nice, and in general skill points to capture a little bit more of that Drow flavor
- High Ref or Will save (Diamond Mind maneuvers can deal with the other one)
- Class needs to not be crippled by having a sword in each hand.

In general, though, I don't have much else in mind, mostly because we'd be starting this campaign after summer and nobody else really has a clear idea of what he wants to play (one guy is playing a dragon a la Draconomicon in one column, but other than that nobody's really picked).

Also, to those of you who keep saying Gloves of the Balanced Hand... that's 8,000 gp. WBL for a 6th-level character is 13,000 gp. Even if the DM will let me buy a single item for more than half of my total wealth, that's really pretty impractical given that I need two weapons, armor, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and other items.

[Greenish]

To answer questions of what I want:

- Hide and Move Silently would be nice, and in general skill points to capture a little bit more of that Drow flavor
- High Ref or Will save (Diamond Mind maneuvers can deal with the other one)
- Class needs to not be crippled by having a sword in each hand.So a skill monkey of some description, probably no active casters. Factotum does it all, pretty much, but other options include rogue, feat rogue, psychic rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) (psionic powers have no somatic or material components), soulknife (both saves, free magic weapon for other or both hands, the skills you want, some ranged capability), scout, swordsage and maybe even ranger (TWF tree for free without requiring high Dex, access to decent wands, good skills, good ref).

[Edit]: Even a monk would work to some extent, or perhaps monk/psychic rogue tashatalora.

[yugi24862]

Factotum fits all of those (good reflex, 6+int skill points all skills class) plus gives Int to saves/attack/damage/AC a few times per encounter, class level to a skill 1/day, extra standard actions, bypass DR, avoid death, perament int to AC, and at 19 can replicate other class features. (sneak attack? Loyal beyond death? Hide in plain site? you got it)

[Incanur]

The factotum/warblade gestalt is almost too awesome for words.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Warblade 20 (99)// Factotum 1/ Drow racial class 1/ Focused Martial Transmuter 1/ Drow Paragon 3/ Factotum 14 (92/ Drow racial class 1), the spells I keep pointing out only have verbal components so no need to have a hand free and no need to worry about arcane spell failure.

Factotum gives you pretty much everything you're looking for. Wizard is there so the Drow Paragon spellcasting increase isn't wasted, plus it gives you a Fighter bonus feat, a temporary climb, fly, or swim speed at 60 ft. if you cast Swift Expeditious Retreat first, and a few castings of Wraithstrike for those really important full attacks.

[Rhaegar14]

Wraithstrike definitely has a somatic component according to Spell Compendium, but I'm taking the rest of it to heart. Still, finding 8 1st-level spells with no somatic components at all, much less even situationally useful ones, is harder than one would think. XD

[dspeyer]

To answer questions of what I want:

- Hide and Move Silently would be nice, and in general skill points to capture a little bit more of that Drow flavor
- High Ref or Will save (Diamond Mind maneuvers can deal with the other one)
- Class needs to not be crippled by having a sword in each hand.


Sounds like factotum is a really good fit, then. At low levels, they're the stealthiest you can get because of Brains over Brawn.

Multiclassing out after that is an option. Factotum 3 / Feated Rogue 2 gets most of the awesome plus a pair of fighter bonus feats. Look at the rest of your build to see how handy those are. (If you expect to reach 8th level on this side of the gestalt, you don't want to delay cunning surge, but if not you can multiclass nicely).

[HalfDragonCube]

Factotum also gets SLAs of spells, good for those who want something to do if they can't just stab a problem.

Casting Caltrops as a readied action against chargers is a good way to stop them then stab them as an attack of opportunity. As is Blockade.

[Serenity]

Where psionics is allowed, I've always been a huge fan of the Warblade//Egoist. You're like a psychic warrior with 9th level powers, a full BAB, and all good saves.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wraithstrike definitely has a somatic component according to Spell Compendium, but I'm taking the rest of it to heart. Still, finding 8 1st-level spells with no somatic components at all, much less even situationally useful ones, is harder than one would think. XD

I could have swore I'd checked it and it was verbal-only, I guess I was just thinking that all the Swift spells were that way, though nearly all of them are.

1st- Blades of Fire, Benign Transposition, Feather Fall, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Deep Breath, Hold Portal, Critical Strike, Locate City
2nd- Bladeweave, Blur, Blindness/Deafness, Knock, Returning Weapon, Sonic Weapon

You could always put out-of-combat spells on there, like Alarm, Identify, and Rope Trick (you'll need Practiced Spellcaster and a Lesser Rod of Extend). You could also use Luminous Armor if you're going to be a goody-two-shoes.