Captain America

[Seth62]

I want to make Captain America for a character for my America obsessed friend who knows all the presidents and vice presidents et cetera any ideas I so far think he should be a paladin or a paladin of freedom.

[Talyn]

Captain America, in his classical incarnation, is much more "Paladin" than "Paladin of Freedom." While the United States is a country which respects and honors the values of self-determination and individual freedom, it still does so through a complex system of laws and rules which govern human behavior.

Captain Steve Rogers, U.S. Army, embodies the ultimate in Lawful Good - he is a disciplined, self-sacrificing paragon of "traditional" (for his society) values. He works within a larger hierarchy, because that is how he believes he can do the most good.

[person29]

Check out the feats in PHB2...there is one that allows you to throw your shield

[Tyndmyr]

Pretty much a combination of unarmed attack(assuming we're not playing when cap used guns), and shield fighting feats.

One of the people in my current 3.5 campaign literally is playing this character. I'll see if I can't copy down his build tonight.

[Greenish]

Meh, you don't really want to play Captain America, he's so easy to beat with a simple skill check: http://superdickery.com/images/stories/stupor/1860_4_169.jpg

[Seth62]

the Tumbler was stupid. I think sword fighting is out of the question, I think a paladin monk maybe

[Cog]

Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade, for more effective shield-hurling. ToB gets you the superior Unarmed Strike feat as well. You don't get the boost-to-saves of a Paladin build, but the save replacement maneuvers cover you there just fine.

[Seth62]

warblade sounds like a good idea, what about the knight though I think it may be okay I mean they have honor and such.

[Cog]

warblade sounds like a good idea, what about the knight though I think it may be okay I mean they have honor and such.
A Warblade can be played just as honorably as a Knight can, while I'm not very sure a Knight's abilities and strengths much reflect what Captain America actually does.

[Seth62]

I think I will put him in a gestalt campaign and make him a monk paladin? I think I'll use some stuff from the The Quintessential Monk as well. This guy needs a high con.

[Cog]

I think I will put him in a gestalt campaign and make him a monk paladin? I think I'll use some stuff from the The Quintessential Monk as well. This guy needs a high con.
Depending on every stat except Int isn't very conducive to keeping a high Con.

[Greenish]

Monk? Yeah, I guess the good captain is well known for running really fast, teleporting about, killing people with ki vibrations and so forth.

Well, at least you'll avoid many of monk's traps, since wearing the shield will cancel a bunch of your class abilities.

[Anxe]

Not a high level monk who has the ki killing ability or the teleporting. Captain America did run super fast though. And I think the slow fall ability fits well.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Well, the problem is that you need something with a lot of skillpoints to represent Cap's skillset. I'd actually go with Human Paragon/Marshal over Monk, but I can see the argument for three levels of Monk; he is fast and he seems to have Evasion.

So maybe Paladin3//Monk3 and then finish him out with Fighter and Marshal.

edit:


Not a high level monk who has the ki killing ability or the teleporting. Captain America did run super fast though. And I think the slow fall ability fits well.

"Didn't you hear? Captain American thinks parachutes are for girls!"

[Cog]

My understanding is that Cap isn't supposed to be supernaturally capable, though, and Wiki confirms that. Barbarian-type fast movement might be more accurate. As for evasion, the UA Fighter-feats Rogue will get you that, combat ability, and skills.

[Essence_of_War]

Keld's posted build here looks way better than anything involving monks or paladins...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115471

[Seth62]

Skills are very important indeed and I think he should have a great climb, jump, concentration, and listen/spot skills. Human paragon is awesome so yeah maybe a human paragon paladin monk.

[Seth62]

Bloodstorm Blade is in what book??

[Essence_of_War]

Tome of Battle.

As is the Warblade, the class that you need to get into it.

Master Thrower is from Complete Warrior.

Edit: I'm pretty sure all of those classes have fine skill lists also.

Also the WB is free content:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2

[Gnaeus]

Well, the problem is that you need something with a lot of skillpoints to represent Cap's skillset. I'd actually go with Human Paragon/Marshal over Monk,

I agree. By marvel standards Cap really isn't a top of the line fighter. Most of his teammates are better. He really falls more into the leader role. Maybe even crusader/bard with Song of the White Raven.

Of course, if you want a guy who fights, but really isn't the best at it, I guess that does suggest monk as well, but not in a good way.

[Tyndmyr]

My understanding is that Cap isn't supposed to be supernaturally capable, though, and Wiki confirms that. Barbarian-type fast movement might be more accurate. As for evasion, the UA Fighter-feats Rogue will get you that, combat ability, and skills.

The big problem with Cap having levels in barb is that the guy is almost certainly lawful good.

[Cog]

The big problem with Cap having levels in barb is that the guy is almost certainly lawful good.
Thus the "-type" qualifier. :smallcool:

[Barstro]

The big problem with Cap having levels in barb is that the guy is almost certainly lawful good.

You can argue that he is neutral good. His initial purpose was to take down the legitimate (lawful) ruling government of another country. The fact that most of the rest of the world was against that government is irrelevant, it was the ruling power*. Just make him more like the Comedian than Cap.

Couldn't you also start out with the necessary levels of Barbarian and then have him "open his eyes" and change alignment? Or would that cause too many other problems?

*The above hypothetical is purely to aid in the discussion of how to make this character. In no way should this be taken as a hint into my political views, or an invitation to discuss politics.

[Tyndmyr]

You can argue that he is neutral good. His initial purpose was to take down the legitimate (lawful) ruling government of another country. The fact that most of the rest of the world was against that government is irrelevant, it was the ruling power*. Just make him more like the Comedian than Cap.

The Comedian and Cap are very different characters. They're sufficiently different that I can't see them getting along well at all.

In the source material, the comics, the government he was created to take down is not depicted as legitimate. If it was or not in real life isn't really the point.


Couldn't you also start out with the necessary levels of Barbarian and then have him "open his eyes" and change alignment? Or would that cause too many other problems?

It doesn't really match the character well. Heck, even Rage doesn't match him well. He's a tactical guy, not an angry guy.

Human Paragon, on the other hand, fits him like a glove.

[Cog]

You can argue that he is neutral good. His initial purpose was to take down the legitimate (lawful) ruling government of another country. The fact that most of the rest of the world was against that government is irrelevant, it was the ruling power*. Just make him more like the Comedian than Cap.
Lawful Good isn't a priority list - you can put the Good before the Lawful sometimes.


Couldn't you also start out with the necessary levels of Barbarian and then have him "open his eyes" and change alignment? Or would that cause too many other problems?
You would lose Rage, mainly, which isn't much of a loss in the sense of accuracy. It might still be better to get it somewhere else - Scout, Archery Barbarian, Wildshape Ranger, something like that.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I agree. By marvel standards Cap really isn't a top of the line fighter. Most of his teammates are better.

I don't know. He can toe-to-toe with anything human. He just doesn't have the ability scores to match. There was an issue of Avengers where he was working out in the training room; Thor comes up to him and offers to help since he's got it set on the highest difficulty level.

Cap says sure thing, since he's already got it set for two people anyway.


He really falls more into the leader role. Maybe even crusader/bard with Song of the White Raven.

Crusader fits. Crusader opposite Feat Rogue with Superior Unarmed Strike is just about perfect.

[true_shinken]

My understanding is that Cap isn't supposed to be supernaturally capable, though, and Wiki confirms that. Barbarian-type fast movement might be more accurate. As for evasion, the UA Fighter-feats Rogue will get you that, combat ability, and skills.

Well, that depends on the writer. Peter David had Cap fight hand-to-hand with THE HULK in the 90s.
Ultimate Cap does superhuman stuff routinely.




Human Paragon, on the other hand, fits him like a glove.
This, a hundred times this.
Also, the serum should have given him 18s across the board.

[Seth62]

18 across the board seems right but thats kinda hard to pull off

[Cog]

All 18s is just fine for statting Cap as accurately as possible, but it doesn't really work for making him a PC, which is what the OP asked about.

[true_shinken]

All 18s is just fine for statting Cap as accurately as possible, but it doesn't really work for making him a PC, which is what the OP asked about.

Hm, indeed. You're correct. I remove my suggestion.

[Prime32]

You can argue that he is neutral good. His initial purpose was to take down the legitimate (lawful) ruling government of another country. The fact that most of the rest of the world was against that government is irrelevant, it was the ruling power*. Just make him more like the Comedian than Cap.

Couldn't you also start out with the necessary levels of Barbarian and then have him "open his eyes" and change alignment? Or would that cause too many other problems?

*The above hypothetical is purely to aid in the discussion of how to make this character. In no way should this be taken as a hint into my political views, or an invitation to discuss politics.:confused:
That is not what being lawful means at all. A lawful good person is not compelled to follow evil laws, or any laws for that matter. And he wasn't opposing anyone for being lawful, he was opposing them for being evil.

(whether or not they were actually evil is another matter, and irrelevant to this discussion)

[Dralnu]

JaronK has a build that's pretty reflective of Captain America. If I recall, it's Barbarian 2 / Fighter 2 / Crusader X. You take the Wolf Totem barbarian variant for Improved Trip and load up on shield-related feats, most notably Shield Slam. Crusader also provides shield-required maneuvers. It fits the theme and it can be quite powerful too if you go down the usual Shock Trooper line.

Take the Ranged shield enchantment from MIC. It's a mere +1 and lets you throw your shield with the returning property.

[Optimator]

JaronK has a build that's pretty reflective of Captain America. If I recall, it's Barbarian 2 / Fighter 2 / Crusader X. You take the Wolf Totem barbarian variant for Improved Trip and load up on shield-related feats, most notably Shield Slam. Crusader also provides shield-required maneuvers. It fits the theme and it can be quite powerful too if you go down the usual Shock Trooper line.

Take the Ranged shield enchantment from MIC. It's a mere +1 and lets you throw your shield with the returning property.

I was gonna post the same thing. Lemme see if I can find the post...

Found it. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1532.0) God, that's an elegant build.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I don't think 18 would represent true human maximum. You're missing level-based stat increases.

I'd say Captain America has physical stats in the 20-22 range, a similar Charisma, and Intelligence and Wisdom in the mid-teens.

[Optimator]

I don't think 18 would represent true human maximum. You're missing level-based stat increases.

I'd say Captain America has physical stats in the 20-22 range, a similar Charisma, and Intelligence and Wisdom in the mid-teens.

I concur. Although I don't think his Cha is that good.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Maybe not. But he commands multiple deities in battle and everyone but his most bitter enemies looks up to him.

[Zonugal]

I don't think 18 would represent true human maximum. You're missing level-based stat increases.

I'd say Captain America has physical stats in the 20-22 range, a similar Charisma, and Intelligence and Wisdom in the mid-teens.

I might say that it would be easy to put his physical stats at 20 and with his mental stats we have to look towards the literature. He leads a team composed of some of the mightiest beings on the planet (one of them being a god), so an 18 in charisma could probably work here. Regarding wisdom he is pretty darn wise and such but no more than any noble being. This might be the lowest of his stats with a wisdom of 16. Finally intelligence has to be 20 as the super serum actually transformed his mind into a super-efficient brain. It is said that after receiving the super serum, Captain America has never forget a single thing he has ever seen/hear/experienced. It is what makes him such a great commander because he can focus on everything in a battle and should something terrible happen, immediately adapt to another battle plan that he has used in the past. Just to hammer it in, Steve Rogers is a very smart dude so a 20 seems fair here.

Class-wise I think a pretty standard build for Captain America is one of Crusader 8/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 6/Warblade 2/Crusader 2. It's a build that emphasizes his shield throwing in addition to his ability to command a team. Both Devoted Spirit (for healing, which can act as an element of his super serum) and White Raven fit very well for him and with the addition of Iron Heart from Warblade we pick up some excellent defensive boosts (which can also act as an element of his super serum, Iron Heart Surge for example). If we're looking at making him gestalt I'd say a feat rogue on the other side would probably be a really great choice, as to represent his spy-like skills and such.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Yeah, I know Cap is hella smart. Didn't know that about the super-efficient brain and everything, but I just don't reckon him for being on the same intellectual plane as Parker and McCoy and they're still a ways behind the supergeniuses.

Way I figure it, Cap's in the 16-18 range. Parker and McCoy are in the 20-22 range. Stark's around 25 or 26. Richards, Banner, and Pym are in the 30s.

[Taelas]

Stark is definitely smarter than Pym, and possibly Banner as well. He is among the top five. (Richards, Doom, and the High Evolutionary are the top three.)

But Cap fits around 16-18. His Wis is probably lower, maybe 14-16. His Cha is up around 20 at least. His Str, Dex and Con all hover around that mark as well, with his Dex being the lower stat.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Stark is definitely smarter than Pym, and possibly Banner as well. He is among the top five. (Richards, Doom, and the High Evolutionary are the top three.)

I might be underestimating Stark. Amadeus Cho is smarter than any of them when he's operating at full capacity, but I haven't seen him engage Doom or the High Evolutionary. T'Challa operates at that level.

[Zonugal]

Yeah, I know Cap is hella smart. Didn't know that about the super-efficient brain and everything, but I just don't reckon him for being on the same intellectual plane as Parker and McCoy and they're still a ways behind the supergeniuses.

Way I figure it, Cap's in the 16-18 range. Parker and McCoy are in the 20-22 range. Stark's around 25 or 26. Richards, Banner, and Pym are in the 30s.

I would definitely say probably int of 18. I'd also say that cap's intellect works in different ways than Banner or Stark. Instead of being based on creativity or innovation, it resembles around memory & adaptational senses. In that way he is probably more akin to Parker.

[Taelas]

I might be underestimating Stark. Amadeus Cho is smarter than any of them when he's operating at full capacity, but I haven't seen him engage Doom or the High Evolutionary. T'Challa operates at that level.

Amadeus Cho is not quite in the top five. He's in top ten, though. T'Challa is just below him.

[Prime32]

Cho's intelligence is partly a mutant ability though. (http://marvel.wikia.com/Amadeus_Cho_%28Earth-616%29) It's more like he can cast fox's cunning as an SLA.

[Tyndmyr]

Aright, how we'd statted him out. We were fortunate enough to get solid die rolls, including an 18 and two 16s.

Human Paragon 1/Fighter 2/Cleric 1/Human Paragon +2

Luck Domain, War Domain(select a diety who's favored weapon is the fist or the shield. We have non-standard dieties, so adjust for campaign).

This got us, at level 6, a pretty good array of skills, cleric 3 casting(which is mostly ignored for flavor reasons, but you can certainly refluff much of it, A free +2 to a stat to help represent caps fantastic stats, and seven feats, two of which must be fighter bonus feats. We dumped them all into shield and unarmed combat, and he ended up being fairly decent for the level.