[3.5] Wizard Familiar query.

[Ruinix]

i have a question.

i currently have this build:
race iluminan. kraug sigil

beguiler 1 / wizard 4 / ultimate mage 8

practicioned spellcaster beguiler.

so i count as:

wizard spellcaster level 12. caster level 15
beguiler spellcaster level 6. caster level 14

i also take Improved Familiar feat.

i ask to my DM for the magical beast Beguiler wich is in the book Shining South of FR. page 60.

the question is.

what level of wizard i have for the familiar feature and what level progresion count for the familiar?

[blazingshadow]

4 only the 4 levels of wizard count towards your familiar progresion

[dextercorvia]

That is true for the regular familiar, but Improved Familiar is tied to your Arcane Spellcaster level. That would be 12 for your Wizard side.

[Forged Fury]

That is true for the regular familiar, but Improved Familiar is tied to your Arcane Spellcaster level. That would be 12 for your Wizard side.
I'm not sure that is correct. For one, it specifies Arcane Spellcaster Level, which I don't think is the same as Caster Level. I don't think Ultimate Magus levels are added to Wizard to determine what creature you can attract since it isn't based on Caster Level but Arcane Spellcaster Level.

With respect to progression, the feat indicates the familiars otherwise follow all the normal rules for familiars except for two items that aren't relevant here.

The normal rules for familiars state:

Familiar Ability Descriptions
All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master’s combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. The abilities given on the table are cumulative.
Wizard is the only class listed that normally grants a familiar, so familiar progression is equivalent to a 4th level Wizard.

Now, if he had the Obtain Familiar feat, that stacks arcane classes for determining progression...

[Ruinix]

so i was thinking in exactly in the Obtain Familiar feat.

i plan to make a few swaps and take it at char lev. 6. but for that point i alredy have the familiar via the 4 wiz levels.

so is that ok? it works ? for pile all the arcane caster character level, so at lev 13 i count as lev 13 wizard for the familiar progresion?

[Forged Fury]

It probably works. At a minimum, you definitely would be 5th level since Beguiler and Wizard definitely stack. It depends on exactly what the following means:

"[Y]our levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells stack"

If Ultimate Magus meets that requirement, party on.

If you don't really need a familiar before then, I'd suggest finding an ACF that swaps out Familiar with something else and then take Obtain Familiar at 6th Level.

[Douglas]

If you don't really need a familiar before then, I'd suggest finding an ACF that swaps out Familiar with something else and then take Obtain Familiar at 6th Level.
For the ultimate in silliness and ease of fixing, there's a flaw from some issue of Dragon that removes your Familiar class feature. Take that and spend the bonus feat on Obtain Familiar. Net effect your familiar now scales with caster level instead of Wizard level, and absolutely nothing else changes.

This might not work by a strict reading of RAW, but I think it's an overly strict reading.

[Forged Fury]

For the ultimate in silliness and ease of fixing, there's a flaw from some issue of Dragon that removes your Familiar class feature. Take that and spend the bonus feat on Obtain Familiar. strict reading.Aren't Flaws supposed to be taken at 1st Level? I don't think you qualify for Obtain Familiar at 1st Level.

[Elric VIII]

Aren't Flaws supposed to be taken at 1st Level? I don't think you qualify for Obtain Familiar at 1st Level.

You're correct, it requires "arcane caster level 3rd."

[Cog]

For one, it specifies Arcane Spellcaster Level, which I don't think is the same as Caster Level.
It's not, but it's not the same as Wizard level either. Spellcaster level essentially measures how far you are along the spells/day chart, and Ultimate Magus does advance you along that chart.

[Ruinix]

obtain familiar have the requirement to cast 3 level spells.
as my build allow me to do that as early at lev 6, so i just take that feat at lev 6.
i take at lev 9 the improved familiar.

that should work on RAW.

as for the ACFs that swap familiar for something else that i know are:

-inmediate magic. is in PH2. but i have to be an specialist wizard wich i don't want cause my build is to be a batman wizard and i don't want to give up spells options.

-Wizard of Sun and Moon. is in Dungeonscape, wich i select 2 spells wich share 1 spell slot, 1 can be cast on light/day conditions, and the other on night/underground conditions. is to strict to the theme of batman wizard.


anyone know another? if not i still think the best is stick with it and get obtain familiar plus improved familiar.

[Cog]

The Alternative Class Features list (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III) didn't turn up anything particularly interesting.

[Forged Fury]

Spellcaster level essentially measures how far you are along the spells/day chart, and Ultimate Magus does advance you along that chart.
Do you happen to have a reference for that anywhere? I'm really just curious since I couldn't find anything when I attempted to look for it.

[Elric VIII]

The Alternative Class Features list (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III) didn't turn up anything particularly interesting.

Wilderness Companion (UA) might be useful if you want to take Obtain Familiar. Worst case scenario, you get a free mount with the Share Spells ability.

[Cog]

Do you happen to have a reference for that anywhere? I'm really just curious since I couldn't find anything when I attempted to look for it.
Nothing explicit, but you can figure it out by process of elimination or by looking at prestige classes. The latter refer to "increased level of spellcasting", which is very nearly the same wording, while for the former it must be something different from either caster level or class level as each of the three terms is used in different contexts, and there aren't exactly many options left.

[Ruinix]

Wilderness Companion (UA) might be useful if you want to take Obtain Familiar. Worst case scenario, you get a free mount with the Share Spells ability.

exelent. maybe this is it!
thx for the helps guys :D

__

forged fury.

my DM ask me for the same thing when i present to him my build. the only reference i could get is from Races of the Dragon, in the feat PRACTICIONED SPELLCASTER, note it is the only reference where the word "spellcaster" is used to diference from caster level.

in short.
when the char take 2 diferents caster class, the max HDs, the Spellcaster Level, and the Caster level appart one from each other. Normally each Spellcaster Class Level give you +1 Spellcaster level wich is equal to yours Caster Levels wich (with LA+0) is equal to your HDs.

Practicioned Spellcaster give +4 Caster Level to a max of your HDs, and is the feat trick used to pump 10/10 Spellcaster level on wizard side with Ultimate magus.

here is the thread where with some help i make my build.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10743955#post10743955

a little correction i made to it is that at lev 13, i have 16 CLs for wizard, the correction was on the 2nd character level wich i should add the +1 given by race feature, Kraug Sigil from Illuminian (races of destiny)

[Elric VIII]

Arcane caster level 3rd simply means CL 3 in an arcane class (worded this way to bar divine casters). So, theoretically you could be a Wiz 1/Beguiler 2 with Practiced Spellcaster on the wizard side and take the feat.

[Forged Fury]

Nothing explicit, but you can figure it out by process of elimination or by looking at prestige classes. The latter refer to "increased level of spellcasting", which is very nearly the same wording, while for the former it must be something different from either caster level or class level as each of the three terms is used in different contexts, and there aren't exactly many options left.
Interesting take. I guess I lean more toward what is contained in the rules for familiars.

Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master’s level.
I guess I see that as coming closer to Arcane Spellcaster Level in the context of a discussion on familiars, particularly since there are almost no other situations where you would combine (for instance) sorcerer and wizard class levels like that. I don't see Ultimate Magus or any other PRC that doesn't either grant a familiar or specifically advance familiars as doing anything for familiar acquisition or advancement. If it said Caster Level, that would be different.

When it comes down to it, a Wizard 5/Beguiler 1/Ultimate Magus X only has one class that grants familiar abilities, so I think it's stuck at 5.

I'm not sure if Obtain Familiar would change that equation all that much since Ultimate Magus simply advances other classes abilities to cast spells rather than granting spells itself.

[Ruinix]

Arcane caster level 3rd simply means CL 3 in an arcane class (worded this way to bar divine casters). So, theoretically you could be a Wiz 1/Beguiler 2 with Practiced Spellcaster on the wizard side and take the feat.

yup. my bad. it can get it at lev 3, but at lev 3 i have to take practicioned spellcaster on BEGUILER side, that is the trick to get wizard 10/10 on UM PrC, it HAS to be on 3rd level and gotta have something in lev 1-2 to increase the CL, that is why this build is done with Illuminian with Kraug Sigil.

is a little cheesy but all RAW.

anyway, with obtain familiar, at lev 13 i get a familiar as wizard lev 13, improved familiar let me choose beguiler (the magical beast from SS) wich can use wands and give me True Sight 24/7, as for the cast i get wizard spellcaster level 12 and caster level 16, and beguiler spellcaster level 6 and caster level 15, and almost forgot, with the ACF Wilderness Companion i get an animal companion.

1/2 of wizard levels.
so for this i count as druid level 2 ? thats very crappy ¬¬

[Elric VIII]

yup. my bad. it can get it at lev 3, but at lev 3 i have to take practicioned spellcaster on BEGUILER side, that is the trick to get wizard 10/10 on UM PrC, it HAS to be on 3rd level and gotta have something in lev 1-2 to increase the CL, that is why this build is done with Illuminian with Kraug Sigil.

is a little cheesy but all RAW.

anyway, with obtain familiar, at lev 13 i get a familiar as wizard lev 13, improved familiar let me choose beguiler (the magical beast from SS) wich can use wands and give me True Sight 24/7, as for the cast i get wizard spellcaster level 12 and caster level 16, and beguiler spellcaster level 6 and caster level 15, and almost forgot, with the ACF Wilderness Companion i get an animal companion.

1/2 of wizard levels.
so for this i count as druid level 2 ? thats very crappy ¬¬

Well, I was suggesting the AC for when the plan was to grab Obtain Familiar, then Improved Familiar at 6.

Just wondering, what are your first level feats? With Beguiler as your first level you can take Practiced Spellcaster at level 1, along with some extra skill points and more hp.

[Cog]

Interesting take. I guess I lean more toward what is contained in the rules for familiars.
The basic rules for familiars don't reference spellcaster level, though. As I noted, it's a term that's used roughly as consistently as class level and caster level are, and it's used in contexts that don't relate to familiars at all, and where "Wizard level plus Sorc level" would fit very poorly (see Complete Arcane for Acolyte of the Skin's Summon Fiend, Iot7V's Veil's, and Sublime Chord's casting for examples).


I don't see Ultimate Magus or any other PRC that doesn't either grant a familiar or specifically advance familiars as doing anything for familiar acquisition or advancement.
Right. Normally it doesn't, and normal familiar advancement is based on class level. It's Improved Familiar that takes into account spellcaster level. It's supposed to work differently, or they would have just given it the same rules.


If it said Caster Level, that would be different.
Yes, it would, but that's yet a third different term. The main distinction between caster level and spellcaster level is that the former is a lot easier to boost, while the second is restricted very nearly to your HD.


When it comes down to it, a Wizard 5/Beguiler 1/Ultimate Magus X only has one class that grants familiar abilities, so I think it's stuck at 5.
Again, Improved Familiar does not reference the default familiar rules in that particular regard.


I'm not sure if Obtain Familiar would change that equation all that much since Ultimate Magus simply advances other classes abilities to cast spells rather than granting spells itself.
If you were relying only on Obtain Familiar, this would be correct. Unlike Improved Familiar, Obtain Familiar does reference class level.

[Ruinix]

Well, I was suggesting the AC for when the plan was to grab Obtain Familiar, then Improved Familiar at 6.

Just wondering, what are your first level feats? With Beguiler as your first level you can take Practiced Spellcaster at level 1, along with some extra skill points and more hp.


my build is this.

race iluminian.
Sigils.
Kraug. +1CL to all arcane cast class. to a max of my HDs.
Naen. +1 skill checks based on int.

Beguiler 1 / Wizard 4 / Ultimate Mage 8

(1) Able Lerner
(flaw) Versatile Spellcaster
(flaw) Practicioned Spellcaster: Beguiler
(2) ACF: Martial Wizard. Improved Inciative
(3) Obtain Familiar (it was Fell Drain)
(6) Improved Familiar
(9) Sculpt Spell
(10) Split Ray (feat given at lev 5 of UM)
(12) Point Blank Shot + Precise Shot (DM Houserule)

[HalfDragonCube]

my build is this.

race iluminian.
Sigils.
Kraug. +1CL to all arcane cast class. to a max of my HDs.
Naen. +1 skill checks based on int.

Beguiler 1 / Wizard 4 / Ultimate Mage 8

(1) Able Lerner
(flaw) Versatile Spellcaster
(flaw) Practicioned Spellcaster: Beguiler
(2) ACF: Martial Wizard. Improved Inciative
(3) Obtain Familiar (it was Fell Drain)
(6) Improved Familiar
(9) Sculpt Spell
(10) Split Ray (feat given at lev 5 of UM)
(12) Point Blank Shot + Precise Shot (DM Houserule)

Yup. That's a nice, solid Int-based caster. Be a specialist conjurer or transmuter and drop illusion and enchantment for extra cheesy points.

[Ruinix]

thx but no. i have all the cheese i want XD hehe.
Versatille Spellcaster let me burn spells to cast more spells.
And Augmentied Casting from UM let me burn spells slots to lower metamagic costs.
Expanded Knowledge from UM let me cast spells from my wizard spellbook as Beguiler.

So for this build, give up spells options is the worst idea.

[Elric VIII]

*build*


Able Learner is Human or Doppleganger only (or does Illumian count as Human?).

I agree with mudkip about banning Wizard0side Illusion, even if you just specialize in Divination (always useful), so you don't have to give up a 2nd school. Beguiler has the best Illusion spells anyway, although I could see a reason to keep Enchantment.

[Cog]

Able Learner is Human or Doppleganger only (or does Illumian count as Human?).
Illumians are Humanoid (human). Some people argue that's not close enough, but it works for me.

[HalfDragonCube]

Illumians are Humanoid (human). Some people argue that's not close enough, but it works for me.

Who would argue otherwise? That is like saying grey elves which are humanoid (elf) do not count as elves.

Sure, Illumians happen to have a few glowy things floating around their heads, but they are still human.

[Cog]

Who would argue otherwise? That is like saying grey elves which are humanoid (elf) do not count as elves.
The difference being that gray elves also have "elf" in the name, and are called elves as well. The "human" requirement could be understood to refer to the race name, rather than the type and subtype; it's similar to the distinction between a requirement of Race: Goblin and Race: Goblinoid, for example.

[HalfDragonCube]

The difference being that gray elves also have "elf" in the name, and are called elves as well. The "human" requirement could be understood to refer to the race name, rather than the type and subtype; it's similar to the distinction between a requirement of Race: Goblin and Race: Goblinoid, for example.

Aren't goblins humanoid (goblinoid)?

[dextercorvia]

Race and subtype aren't exactly equal. I had this debate with Curmudgeon a while back. The farther from it I get, the more I think he is right by RAW.

[Cog]

Aren't goblins humanoid (goblinoid)?
Yes, but so are hobgoblins and bugbears. Race: Goblinoid would include all of those, while Race: Goblin would not.

[HalfDragonCube]

Yes, but so are hobgoblins and bugbears. Race: Goblinoid would include all of those, while Race: Goblin would not.

Yeah.

But surely if Illumians didn't count as humans then they would be likely noted down as humanoid (illumian) instead of humanoid (human)?

Depends whether Able Learner wants human or (human) I suppose.

[Cog]

Depends whether Able Learner wants human or (human) I suppose.
That's exactly the question, yes. The requirement has a pretty distinct lack of both parentheses and the word "subtype".

[HalfDragonCube]

That's exactly the question, yes. The requirement has a pretty distinct lack of both parentheses and the word "subtype".

Aww... Shame that.

[Elric VIII]

Aww... Shame that.

I destroy everything I touch.

Although, if that sitinction makes a difference, I suggest looking into the PHBII retraining rules that essentially allows you to train current class skills into skills that were class skills at one point. So, for a few gold and some time you don't need Able Learner.

[Ruinix]

first off, illuminians and the feat able lerner come in the very same book, races of destiny.
second. in the description of illuminian race it say the illuminan was created with a magic ritual from humans.
third. in the "phisical description" says "looks like humans" bla bla bla
fourth. under "relations" says "illuminians regard humans as a brother race.
fifth. the first trait under "traits" is "Humanoid. (human) Illuminians are humanoid creatures with the human subtipe".

the feat don't make any differentiation of race or subtype.

[Cog]

first off, illuminians and the feat able lerner come in the very same book, races of destiny.
There are other races in that book that do not qualify for human feats. Half-elves, half-orcs, aasimar, tieflings, etc.


second. in the description of illuminian race it say the illuminan was created with a magic ritual from humans.
So are elans. Illithids are created through a biological procedure, but they're human to start with too. Also, illumians are now a true-breeding race of their own.


third. in the "phisical description" says "looks like humans" bla bla bla
Lots of things in D&D look like humans.


fourth. under "relations" says "illuminians regard humans as a brother race.
A brother race seems kind of different from the same race to me. Are you your own sibling?


fifth. the first trait under "traits" is "Humanoid. (human) Illuminians are humanoid creatures with the human subtipe".
Nobody's disputed that.


the feat don't make any differentiation of race or subtype.
Able Learner is listed under the "Special Options" section at the end of the human chapter. Guess what's in the Illumian list? Human Heritage - the feat that makes you considered a human when you aren't already.

[HalfDragonCube]

I destroy everything I touch.

Although, if that sitinction makes a difference, I suggest looking into the PHBII retraining rules that essentially allows you to train current class skills into skills that were class skills at one point. So, for a few gold and some time you don't need Able Learner.

I'm the one that is made of acidic goo. With fire.

Yeah, Able Learner is unnecessary with the retraining rules, but not all DMs allow them.

[dextercorvia]

the feat don't make any differentiation of race or subtype.

The feat is a Racial feat. That requires them to be of the specific race. Subtype is not enough. There is also page 32 which specifies that humans have no special abilities or qualities.