Razgriez
2011-05-13, 03:39 PM
So, this is something I've been working on for a number of months now... and I'd like for you all to review my ideas here that I've laid out, in a pseudo-article style.
You see, I've gotten bored with Standard fighters lately. So I've been branching out on various ideas. .
So, an idea I've been wanting to play around with for a long time, being a "Pure" Fighter at heart, is a master at using the Scythe weapon from the PHB for a 3.0 and .5 game
So before we jump straight into focusing on the build... let's begin by looking at the weapon in question, in a bit of an "Xbox Ahoy!" CoD weapon guides style way (minus the fancy video, and charts, and graphs.. and the following on youtube)
So let's get started.
The Scythe, in real life
The Scythe, or to be more exact, the “War scythe” is a pole-arm weapon, adopted from farming version of the Scythe, used to harvest crops. Scythe type weapons and tools make appearance, as far back in history as ~500 B.C. , particularly on chariots, attached on their wheels,
In it's real life, pole weapon form, it actually takes a much different, appearance than compared to the common variety we see it in. Although the more familiar hooked blade extending out from the shaft, has been used in riots and uprising, the War Scythe appears more like a single edged glaive or fauchard, with it's blade portion upright, along the shaft. The weapon was used in several farmer's riots and uprising, up to the early 1900's, and was a particularly powerful weapon.
(Note, all info presumes a medium creature, such as a Human, as the user)
Scythes, as a weapon, on paper, and in basic practice:
The Scythe is Martial, two handed, melee weapon. In terms of base damage, for a medium sized user, it can deal a maximum of 8 damage, on par with great rolling from many of the one handed melee weapons, but thanks to it being a 2 dice damage weapon, means it has a minimal damage of at least 2, and a higher average damage, for that same medium creature. As a Two handed weapon, it also boost the STR modifier for damage by x1.5
It also packs a massive x4 Critical bonus, which on a Natural 20, and good second roll, will boost the damage up to a respectable and healthy 8d4 for an 8 to 32 damage with one attack, before all other modifiers. It's weight, is at a hefty 10 lbs, which may pose some problem to those with wings or other ways of flying, but considering the primary users of this weapon will probably be packing good Strength scores, the extra weight compared to other weapons, will hardly be a problem. And although often overlooked, it has the advantage of being able to deal Piercing OR Slashing damage with each attack, which may prove useful in some fights, and for some feats.
It also packs the useful "Trip attack weapon" bonus, allowing essentially a “Get out of jail free” card on botched trip attack rolls.
That said, it also packs some major flaws, especially when compared to other weapons of it's category.
In terms of base damage, the Scythe is outmatched by the High Risk, High Reward Great Axe (d12, x3 crit) the various Reach weapons such as the Glaive, and Guisarme (1d10 + special abilities), and the balanced, and powerful Great sword (2d6, 19-20 x2 Crit)
In terms of pure critical, the Falchion, while dealing similar base damage, and packing only a x2 critical, also features an 18-20 threat range. while's it' smaller, one handed Martial weapon cousin, the Scimitar, can also be paired with a shield, or a second weapon.
The Halberd, also packs similar special abilities, Multiple damage types, and a d10 with x3 crit. And while it's not taken often, the Heavy Flail provides similar damage, an improved critical range, a bludgeoning weapon, and packs not only the same Trip bonus as a scythe, but also a +2 to disarm attempts.
So with all these things going against it, why use a Scythe at all then? Simple. because in the right hands, and a focus on it's strong points, it can tip a situation into your favor
So now, we need to focus on the builds.
For this post, I'm limiting it to books and info I'm familiar with (Primarily PHB and PHB 2)
So let's look at the prime class candidates for this.
Barbarian: Tempting, but one major flaw: Lack of extra bonus feats. A pure Barbarian would more benefit from one of the "Safer" picks, such as the Great Sword or Axe
Fighter: Easily the best choice of this group, the fighter's open ended feat builds lends it self easily to maximizing the potential of the Scythe. Combine on top of this, some of the fighter only feats, such as the Weapon Specialization, and improved W. Focus and Spec. As an addition, PHB II offers the Mastery feats, and with Weapon Mastery (Slashing), you can get a bonus attack (granted, at a -5 for the primary, -10 for the bonus, or -5 to all attacks with a full attack action) with the Scythe,. A very nice addition for full attack actions against one target to compensate for the low damage out put.
Rogue: Even if done for only a quick dip for a few ability and feats, the Rogue brings a number of abilities and feats to the table that can add some very devastating attacks, particular any chance they can score a Sneak Attack bonus.
Knight (PHB 2): Bad Idea/Trap. As awesome as it may be to have Knight packing one of these. The knight is better off picking a Great Sword or Lance for it's High damage option, or a Sword and Shield for it's tanking roll. Plus, some of the builds for this idea, require speed to be critical, which means losing out on armor until higher levels And few Scythe wielding knight is going to last long with reduced AC if they happen to challenge the enemy packing magical weapons. Further more, you can't even really take advantage of the Trip bonus, as that alone, can be considered a “Dirty tactic” that goes against the Knight's required code of honor, and even if your DM doesn't do that, what you end up doing, is make your opponent safe from you, for at least a round, unless you don't mind risking violating the code.
Duskblade (PHB2): The Duskblade lends it self to fixing one of the key issues of the Scythe, the poor damage output. Plus with a decent spell list of Status buffs, and debuff spells, this lends it self pretty nice actually to the Duskblade. an Arcane Channeled Chill Touch into a weapon, can last up to 20 "Standard Action" single attacks. The one flaw of course, is bonus feats still.
Multi-Class options
Fighter/Barbarian: Just like with similar builds, Taking fighter as your main, and Barbarian as the secondary in multi class builds, adds raw power on top of the Bonus feats. A very potent physical focus build, with some of the Barbarians natural resistances to boot, Plus, Rage. There's something oddly amusing about the idea of a raging Scythe wielder tearing a bloody path across the battle field, that makes me giggle like a child inside, if only for the amount of carnage it can potentially cause.
Fighter/Duskblade: Another "half and Half" approach, Go to mid levels with the fighter to get the key feats, to boost physical damage, and then round out the upper levels with Duskblade to help out your arcane casters, and adding some basic debuff skills
Any/Rogue: As pointed out by Keld Denar, a quick 1 to 4 level dip into Rogue, unlocks a number of additional bonuses. Of key note is the feat "Craven" from Champions of Ruin, which when combined with the Scythe Critical, + SA, plus various basic modifiers, and a few other simple low level feats, will just pile on a massive amount of damage.
Prestige Classes:
It's very hard to find ones that can fully compliment a Scythe Wielder. That said, in 2 older books, there are some clear winners
First up, is the Templar, from Defenders of the Faith, a 3.0 splat book. Think basically a combat oriented Paladin... as a matter of fact, Paladins in your party may be interested in it. You'll get some bonus feats, divine spells, and an Enhanced defense, as well as Smite (or upgraded smite if you already have it) There is one catch though.... You can only enter it, if you use your deities favored weapon. Hope you like evil or Neutral alignments.
The other option, from Oriental adventures, is the Weapon Master. You'll gain many of the Required feats to max out the scythe anyways. Also, it adds further bonuses to Critical hits going so far as to extend your critical threat, by granting free Improved Critical with Ki Critical, or enhancing the effect, to add a further +2 if you already have Improved Critical.
In a 3.0 campaign, this class begins to really shine when you add on that the "Keen" effect does stack, and with Improved Crit, and Ki Critical the statistical likelihood for a critical becomes a 30% chance of a X4 threat).
Another additional bonus: Ki Whirlwind. As noted in the Feats section below, Whirlwind is a very tempting option to some Fighters. It also provides a decent substitute to most, if not all Cleave related feats.
Ki Whirlwind, firmly secures Whirlwind into your standard tactics, turning Whirlwind into a once per round Standard action attack, rather than Full round.
This means you remain mobile, and don't have to rely on taking down a opponent, to start chaining onto weaker enemies. Add on some Haste Enchantment, and you can run right into a large group of enemies, Whirlwind Attack, then attack the strongest target, all within one round. The best part? Since Spring Attack is a required feat, you can do all this, then use left over movement afterwards, to attempt moving into a better position
Attributes
So what should a user of a scythe focus on?
Strength: It may not pack the base damage numbers of other two handed weapons. But it's still a two handed weapon, Each bonus modifier is worth it's weight in gold for that x1.5 STR mod bonus on damage
Dexterity: As a scythe wielder, you need to get stuck in to the fight. Due to either class or equipment limitations, sometimes that extra Dex is going to be that life saver for you. Plus it's useful for some of the feats that eventually get you Whirlwind, if you want.
Intelligence: You're going to be focused on tactical fighting, not just straight raw power alone. Again, needed for feats, such as the Improved trip to boost the scythes strong points.
Constitution: Simple enough reason really, you're going to get stuck into melee. More HP
Suggested Feats:
Weapon Focus: Key to fighters for the Weapon mastery feats, Important for others, because you need to make each attack roll count.
Weapon Specialization, Greater W. Focus/W. Spec : If you're a fighter, and you don't have these, you're going to hurt your self in the long run.
Melee Weapon Mastery (3.5 only, PHBII) (Fighters only): It's another +2 bonus to Attack and damage rolls with your scythe, as long as you use it in the damage type that matches the Mastery you chose, and opens up another branch of feats, of note Slashing Fury or Driving Attack. It also opens up the 18th level Fighter only feat "Weapon Supremacy"
Improved Critical: You got a x4 critical, so shoot for it, and boost the threat chance to 10% rather than 5.
(3.0 campaigns ONLY) In 3.0 campaigns "Keen" enchantment, or a Magic weapon with the "Keen" effect, (As well as several magic items which bestow the effect to the weapon) does stack with the Improved Critical feat. So consider that factor as well when doing a Scythe build
(3.5 Campaigns) In 3.5, Keen and Improved. Crit do not stack. As such, it becomes a matter of choice on which you would rather have. My suggestion, would be that only Fighters may want to consider Improved Critical, as it's limited to one type of weapon you chose, and will save you some money to spend on magic gear. Other classes may instead, want to turn to magic oils/potions, items, or the magic weapon enhancement Keen instead.
Combat Expertise->Improved trip. If at the start of your attack, the enemy is still standing and you got a reasonable chance to trip him/her/it with your scythe, then go for it, trip them, and then get a free attack in on your now prone opponent.. This also gives you alternate form of helping the party, versus some creatures immune to Critical hits (such as undead)
Power Attack: Decent for any fighter, but with the 2 handed Scythe, the damage boost is doubled, allowing you to take a minor penalty for much more significant returns.
Whirlwind Attack (Fighters only): Due to the fact that you need 5 feat slots to learn this attack (A normal character only gains 7 Feat slots, through leveling, before racial/class bonuses in the standard 1 to 20 progression) Only a Fighter can really spare the feats, (Adding an additional 11 Feats by 20th level). It's a suitable alternative to the Cleave Feat, that will likely get you more use from it and if your into it, provides an anime style moment of awesome as you slice apart a bunch of mooks.
In closing, some Pros and cons I've noticed:
PROS:
-Interesting tactical melee combat build, that can add some support abilities in combat to Melee focused character
-Long term, rewarding build that eventually can deal massive amounts of damage.
-great role play potential, few characters, ever make use of the weapon.
CONS:
-Requires a long term investment in certain feat paths to get full potential
-Starts off slow, and outclassed by other choices at early levels
-Limited Prestige class options: very few Prestige classes, have abilities that can fully compliment a Scythe weapon build.
-Not new player friendly: Being a build that requires some more tactical feats, rather than passive stat boosting feats,
So thoughts, opinions, additional suggestions?
You see, I've gotten bored with Standard fighters lately. So I've been branching out on various ideas. .
So, an idea I've been wanting to play around with for a long time, being a "Pure" Fighter at heart, is a master at using the Scythe weapon from the PHB for a 3.0 and .5 game
So before we jump straight into focusing on the build... let's begin by looking at the weapon in question, in a bit of an "Xbox Ahoy!" CoD weapon guides style way (minus the fancy video, and charts, and graphs.. and the following on youtube)
So let's get started.
The Scythe, in real life
The Scythe, or to be more exact, the “War scythe” is a pole-arm weapon, adopted from farming version of the Scythe, used to harvest crops. Scythe type weapons and tools make appearance, as far back in history as ~500 B.C. , particularly on chariots, attached on their wheels,
In it's real life, pole weapon form, it actually takes a much different, appearance than compared to the common variety we see it in. Although the more familiar hooked blade extending out from the shaft, has been used in riots and uprising, the War Scythe appears more like a single edged glaive or fauchard, with it's blade portion upright, along the shaft. The weapon was used in several farmer's riots and uprising, up to the early 1900's, and was a particularly powerful weapon.
(Note, all info presumes a medium creature, such as a Human, as the user)
Scythes, as a weapon, on paper, and in basic practice:
The Scythe is Martial, two handed, melee weapon. In terms of base damage, for a medium sized user, it can deal a maximum of 8 damage, on par with great rolling from many of the one handed melee weapons, but thanks to it being a 2 dice damage weapon, means it has a minimal damage of at least 2, and a higher average damage, for that same medium creature. As a Two handed weapon, it also boost the STR modifier for damage by x1.5
It also packs a massive x4 Critical bonus, which on a Natural 20, and good second roll, will boost the damage up to a respectable and healthy 8d4 for an 8 to 32 damage with one attack, before all other modifiers. It's weight, is at a hefty 10 lbs, which may pose some problem to those with wings or other ways of flying, but considering the primary users of this weapon will probably be packing good Strength scores, the extra weight compared to other weapons, will hardly be a problem. And although often overlooked, it has the advantage of being able to deal Piercing OR Slashing damage with each attack, which may prove useful in some fights, and for some feats.
It also packs the useful "Trip attack weapon" bonus, allowing essentially a “Get out of jail free” card on botched trip attack rolls.
That said, it also packs some major flaws, especially when compared to other weapons of it's category.
In terms of base damage, the Scythe is outmatched by the High Risk, High Reward Great Axe (d12, x3 crit) the various Reach weapons such as the Glaive, and Guisarme (1d10 + special abilities), and the balanced, and powerful Great sword (2d6, 19-20 x2 Crit)
In terms of pure critical, the Falchion, while dealing similar base damage, and packing only a x2 critical, also features an 18-20 threat range. while's it' smaller, one handed Martial weapon cousin, the Scimitar, can also be paired with a shield, or a second weapon.
The Halberd, also packs similar special abilities, Multiple damage types, and a d10 with x3 crit. And while it's not taken often, the Heavy Flail provides similar damage, an improved critical range, a bludgeoning weapon, and packs not only the same Trip bonus as a scythe, but also a +2 to disarm attempts.
So with all these things going against it, why use a Scythe at all then? Simple. because in the right hands, and a focus on it's strong points, it can tip a situation into your favor
So now, we need to focus on the builds.
For this post, I'm limiting it to books and info I'm familiar with (Primarily PHB and PHB 2)
So let's look at the prime class candidates for this.
Barbarian: Tempting, but one major flaw: Lack of extra bonus feats. A pure Barbarian would more benefit from one of the "Safer" picks, such as the Great Sword or Axe
Fighter: Easily the best choice of this group, the fighter's open ended feat builds lends it self easily to maximizing the potential of the Scythe. Combine on top of this, some of the fighter only feats, such as the Weapon Specialization, and improved W. Focus and Spec. As an addition, PHB II offers the Mastery feats, and with Weapon Mastery (Slashing), you can get a bonus attack (granted, at a -5 for the primary, -10 for the bonus, or -5 to all attacks with a full attack action) with the Scythe,. A very nice addition for full attack actions against one target to compensate for the low damage out put.
Rogue: Even if done for only a quick dip for a few ability and feats, the Rogue brings a number of abilities and feats to the table that can add some very devastating attacks, particular any chance they can score a Sneak Attack bonus.
Knight (PHB 2): Bad Idea/Trap. As awesome as it may be to have Knight packing one of these. The knight is better off picking a Great Sword or Lance for it's High damage option, or a Sword and Shield for it's tanking roll. Plus, some of the builds for this idea, require speed to be critical, which means losing out on armor until higher levels And few Scythe wielding knight is going to last long with reduced AC if they happen to challenge the enemy packing magical weapons. Further more, you can't even really take advantage of the Trip bonus, as that alone, can be considered a “Dirty tactic” that goes against the Knight's required code of honor, and even if your DM doesn't do that, what you end up doing, is make your opponent safe from you, for at least a round, unless you don't mind risking violating the code.
Duskblade (PHB2): The Duskblade lends it self to fixing one of the key issues of the Scythe, the poor damage output. Plus with a decent spell list of Status buffs, and debuff spells, this lends it self pretty nice actually to the Duskblade. an Arcane Channeled Chill Touch into a weapon, can last up to 20 "Standard Action" single attacks. The one flaw of course, is bonus feats still.
Multi-Class options
Fighter/Barbarian: Just like with similar builds, Taking fighter as your main, and Barbarian as the secondary in multi class builds, adds raw power on top of the Bonus feats. A very potent physical focus build, with some of the Barbarians natural resistances to boot, Plus, Rage. There's something oddly amusing about the idea of a raging Scythe wielder tearing a bloody path across the battle field, that makes me giggle like a child inside, if only for the amount of carnage it can potentially cause.
Fighter/Duskblade: Another "half and Half" approach, Go to mid levels with the fighter to get the key feats, to boost physical damage, and then round out the upper levels with Duskblade to help out your arcane casters, and adding some basic debuff skills
Any/Rogue: As pointed out by Keld Denar, a quick 1 to 4 level dip into Rogue, unlocks a number of additional bonuses. Of key note is the feat "Craven" from Champions of Ruin, which when combined with the Scythe Critical, + SA, plus various basic modifiers, and a few other simple low level feats, will just pile on a massive amount of damage.
Prestige Classes:
It's very hard to find ones that can fully compliment a Scythe Wielder. That said, in 2 older books, there are some clear winners
First up, is the Templar, from Defenders of the Faith, a 3.0 splat book. Think basically a combat oriented Paladin... as a matter of fact, Paladins in your party may be interested in it. You'll get some bonus feats, divine spells, and an Enhanced defense, as well as Smite (or upgraded smite if you already have it) There is one catch though.... You can only enter it, if you use your deities favored weapon. Hope you like evil or Neutral alignments.
The other option, from Oriental adventures, is the Weapon Master. You'll gain many of the Required feats to max out the scythe anyways. Also, it adds further bonuses to Critical hits going so far as to extend your critical threat, by granting free Improved Critical with Ki Critical, or enhancing the effect, to add a further +2 if you already have Improved Critical.
In a 3.0 campaign, this class begins to really shine when you add on that the "Keen" effect does stack, and with Improved Crit, and Ki Critical the statistical likelihood for a critical becomes a 30% chance of a X4 threat).
Another additional bonus: Ki Whirlwind. As noted in the Feats section below, Whirlwind is a very tempting option to some Fighters. It also provides a decent substitute to most, if not all Cleave related feats.
Ki Whirlwind, firmly secures Whirlwind into your standard tactics, turning Whirlwind into a once per round Standard action attack, rather than Full round.
This means you remain mobile, and don't have to rely on taking down a opponent, to start chaining onto weaker enemies. Add on some Haste Enchantment, and you can run right into a large group of enemies, Whirlwind Attack, then attack the strongest target, all within one round. The best part? Since Spring Attack is a required feat, you can do all this, then use left over movement afterwards, to attempt moving into a better position
Attributes
So what should a user of a scythe focus on?
Strength: It may not pack the base damage numbers of other two handed weapons. But it's still a two handed weapon, Each bonus modifier is worth it's weight in gold for that x1.5 STR mod bonus on damage
Dexterity: As a scythe wielder, you need to get stuck in to the fight. Due to either class or equipment limitations, sometimes that extra Dex is going to be that life saver for you. Plus it's useful for some of the feats that eventually get you Whirlwind, if you want.
Intelligence: You're going to be focused on tactical fighting, not just straight raw power alone. Again, needed for feats, such as the Improved trip to boost the scythes strong points.
Constitution: Simple enough reason really, you're going to get stuck into melee. More HP
Suggested Feats:
Weapon Focus: Key to fighters for the Weapon mastery feats, Important for others, because you need to make each attack roll count.
Weapon Specialization, Greater W. Focus/W. Spec : If you're a fighter, and you don't have these, you're going to hurt your self in the long run.
Melee Weapon Mastery (3.5 only, PHBII) (Fighters only): It's another +2 bonus to Attack and damage rolls with your scythe, as long as you use it in the damage type that matches the Mastery you chose, and opens up another branch of feats, of note Slashing Fury or Driving Attack. It also opens up the 18th level Fighter only feat "Weapon Supremacy"
Improved Critical: You got a x4 critical, so shoot for it, and boost the threat chance to 10% rather than 5.
(3.0 campaigns ONLY) In 3.0 campaigns "Keen" enchantment, or a Magic weapon with the "Keen" effect, (As well as several magic items which bestow the effect to the weapon) does stack with the Improved Critical feat. So consider that factor as well when doing a Scythe build
(3.5 Campaigns) In 3.5, Keen and Improved. Crit do not stack. As such, it becomes a matter of choice on which you would rather have. My suggestion, would be that only Fighters may want to consider Improved Critical, as it's limited to one type of weapon you chose, and will save you some money to spend on magic gear. Other classes may instead, want to turn to magic oils/potions, items, or the magic weapon enhancement Keen instead.
Combat Expertise->Improved trip. If at the start of your attack, the enemy is still standing and you got a reasonable chance to trip him/her/it with your scythe, then go for it, trip them, and then get a free attack in on your now prone opponent.. This also gives you alternate form of helping the party, versus some creatures immune to Critical hits (such as undead)
Power Attack: Decent for any fighter, but with the 2 handed Scythe, the damage boost is doubled, allowing you to take a minor penalty for much more significant returns.
Whirlwind Attack (Fighters only): Due to the fact that you need 5 feat slots to learn this attack (A normal character only gains 7 Feat slots, through leveling, before racial/class bonuses in the standard 1 to 20 progression) Only a Fighter can really spare the feats, (Adding an additional 11 Feats by 20th level). It's a suitable alternative to the Cleave Feat, that will likely get you more use from it and if your into it, provides an anime style moment of awesome as you slice apart a bunch of mooks.
In closing, some Pros and cons I've noticed:
PROS:
-Interesting tactical melee combat build, that can add some support abilities in combat to Melee focused character
-Long term, rewarding build that eventually can deal massive amounts of damage.
-great role play potential, few characters, ever make use of the weapon.
CONS:
-Requires a long term investment in certain feat paths to get full potential
-Starts off slow, and outclassed by other choices at early levels
-Limited Prestige class options: very few Prestige classes, have abilities that can fully compliment a Scythe weapon build.
-Not new player friendly: Being a build that requires some more tactical feats, rather than passive stat boosting feats,
So thoughts, opinions, additional suggestions?