Bastard Sword Question

[mickeymacattack]

So I making a fighter for a game and I came across a nifty idea but am not entirely sure it works mechanically.

Basically the idea is using a large bastard sword in conjunction with the Exotic Weapon Masters (Complete Warrior) "Uncanny Blow" ability to get x2 to strength on attacks.

I don't have the book in front of me but ability basically lets you apply x2 strength to damage when welding an exotic one handed weapon in two hands.

Now the bastard sword is an exotic one handed weapon, but would changing its size category also ruin the mechanics for this plan? Does it still remain a one handed weapon simply being used in two hands because of the size difference? Would taking something like monkey grip resolve this?

[FMArthur]

While you can certainly treat a Large bastard sword as a medium two-handed weapon for a -2 penalty, you get all the benefits of wielding a two-handed weapon when you wield a one-handed weapon in two hands anyway - which is already the way a character wields a bastard sword if they don't have the EWP feat (this is the weapon's only special property, in fact and may be unique this way). All in all I think you'll be disappointed with the difference between 1.5 x STR and 2.0 x STR, especially for the attack roll penalty. The difference you're more likely to feel is being down two feats and using what basically amounts to a substandard weapon.

Of special note: the class ability also makes reference to Power Attacking as if it were a two-handed weapon, but the Power Attack feat already treats one-handed weapons wielded in two hands as if they were two-handed!

[Keld Denar]

If you had something that allowed you to use a weapon of one size larger, then yes. Some things that would help would be Powerful Build (Goliath/Half Giant), Strongarm Bracers (MIC), and yes, Monkey Grip (the worst option, given the -2 penalty it still gives).

The damage from medium to large is an increase from 1d10 (average 5.5) to 2d8. (average 9), for an average increase in damage of 3.5 points.

And yes, if you have the Str bonus, Uncanny Blow is an awesome tactic that works pretty nicely. It should also be noted that Dwarves can do the same thing with Waraxes and Urgroshes, which is likewise fun.

[mickeymacattack]

If you had something that allowed you to use a weapon of one size larger, then yes. Some things that would help would be Powerful Build (Goliath/Half Giant), Strongarm Bracers (MIC), and yes, Monkey Grip (the worst option, given the -2 penalty it still gives).

The damage from medium to large is an increase from 1d10 (average 5.5) to 2d8. (average 9), for an average increase in damage of 3.5 points.

And yes, if you have the Str bonus, Uncanny Blow is an awesome tactic that works pretty nicely. It should also be noted that Dwarves can do the same thing with Waraxes and Urgroshes, which is likewise fun.

So regarding feats like this its safe to assume that the mechanics look at the weapon category? In this case the bastard sword falls under a one handed exotic weapon (regardless of whether you use it in one hand or not?). My main problem with this is that if you suddenly switch welding a weapon in one hand to two hands does that change the weapon category at all? Is it still treated as a one handed weapon for feats and such or is it now treated as a two handed weapon? If the latter is true then wouldn't uncanny blow be an impossible feat to use since any one handed weapon you weld with two hands would now be counted as a two handed weapon?

Basically I am trying to decide if its better to go this route or just pick up a greatsword, I know most damage for melee comes from strength damage not base die rolls. Originally I was planning on doing a fighter/EWM/Kensai but if the bastard sword idea doesn't work out I would just drop the level of EWM.

[Marnath]

Bastard sword is martial if you wield it in both hands. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#swordBastard)

[Keld Denar]

If you have martial weapon proficiency, a bastard sword is a 2 handed melee weapon. If you have EWP: Bastard Sword, the weapon is now an exotic 1 handed weapon for you. Like any one handed weapon, you can opt to use it with both hands (see longsword).

So, if you are an EWM, and you have EWP: Bastard Sword, you are wielding a 1-handed exotic melee weapon in both hands, and thus you get 2x +Str bonus from Uncanny Blow.

If you increase the size to large, you are no longer able to wield it in one hand without special circumstances. It is no longer a 1-handed exotic melee weapon, it is an inappropriate sized 2-handed exotic melee weapon with all the benefits and drawbacks therein. Since it is no longer 1-handed, you no longer benefit from Uncanny Blow.

If you have special circumstances (see Powerful Build, Strongarm Bracers, Monkey Grip), you reduce the "handedness" back down to 1-hand. Since you are wielding a 1-handed exotic melee weapon in both hands, you gain the benefits from Uncanny Blow if you are an EWM with that trick.


Inappropriately Sized Weapons
A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.
The bolded statement backs up my interpretation. If you have EWP: Bastard Sword and you wield a large sized bastard sword, it would be a 2-handed weapon unless you ALSO had Powerful Build, Strongarm Bracers, or Monkey Grip.

[Greenish]

Of special note: the class ability also makes reference to Power Attacking as if it were a two-handed weapon, but the Power Attack feat already treats one-handed weapons wielded in two hands as if they were two-handed!Some interpretations give this an interesting spin, and call the two functions separate. So if you use the weapon two-handed, you get 2x Str, but even if you wield it one-handed, you still get 2:1 PA ratio.

This is of some interest to many non-standard (read: non-THW) melee builds, such as the one affectionately dubbed as Dragonsplit Master (Cog presented the idea not too long ago).

[Hiro Protagonest]

The bolded statement backs up my interpretation. If you have EWP: Bastard Sword and you wield a large sized bastard sword, it would be a 2-handed weapon unless you ALSO had Powerful Build, Strongarm Bracers, or Monkey Grip.

NEVER TAKE MONKEY GRIP! You still take the penalty on attack rolls, and the size bonus to damage makes it a total of +1 to your average damage,

[Marnath]

So, if you are an EWM, and you have EWP: Bastard Sword, you are wielding a 1-handed exotic melee weapon in both hands, and thus you get 2x +Str bonus from Uncanny Blow.



Umm, no? It goes back to being martial when you two-hand it.

[Greenish]

NEVER TAKE MONKEY GRIP! You still take the penalty on attack rolls, and the size bonus to damage makes it a total of +1 to your average damage,More with bastard sword, due to 1d10's unique scaling with size. As Keld pointed out above, the increase is actually 3.5 points of damage.

Still not worth it, since the effect can be achieved without eating the penalty, but if we keep scaling size upwards it gets better.

…Now I'm tempted to make a psywar with a bastard sword.

[Edit]:
Umm, no? It goes back to being martial when you two-hand it.Actually, that's not what the description says: "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon." It doesn't say the sword actually becomes two-handed weapon, it only says you can use it as such.

[FMArthur]

Unless the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#swordBastard) isn't covering the whole description, without the EWP feat you can use the bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon. Wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands doesn't make it count as a two-handed weapon itself. Although in most circumstances abilities that affect two-handed weapon wielders generally apply to one-handed weapons wielded in two hands anyway, either by special provision or just by referring only to how you wield it.

edit: Ninja'd!

[Keld Denar]

Umm, no? It goes back to being martial when you two-hand it.
How so? Its not like your EWP feat turns off when you put your second hand on the weapon. A normal person (read person w/o EWP) treats a bastard sword in both hands as a 2handed weapon. A person with EWP, however, treats a bastard sword in both hands as a 1 handed exotic weapon wielded in both hands. While superficially, they are similar, they are not the same. The difference is that if the normal person takes a hand off the weapon (to do something else), they basically lose use of the weapon just the same as a person with a greatsword would. A person with EWP, however, can take their 2nd hand off and still use the weapon, just as a normal person wielding a longsword could.


NEVER TAKE MONKEY GRIP! You still take the penalty on attack rolls, and the size bonus to damage makes it a total of +1 to your average damage,
As Greenish noted, in this case, its a gain of an AVERAGE of 3.5 damage per hit for a -2 penalty. This is .5 damage per hit behind PA, making it a rather poor option. IF, however, you scale it up from there, you can get some pretty rediculous results. Expansion for 1 size bumps this to 3d8, an addition of another 4.5 damage per hit, slightly better than PA. Expansion for 2 sizes increases damage to 4d8, a boost of another 4.5 damage on top of that, total of 9 damage larger than a large bastard sword, and 12.5 damage more than a medium bastard sword (4.5 damage more than a non-Monkey Gripped bastard sword wielder). If you can stack on another effective size boost, like Heavy, the damage goes to 6d8, then 8d8, then 12d8, then 16d8. It gets really silly from there on up, where every single little size boost results in a handful of extra dice.

The BAD thing about Monkey Grip, however, is that it is dwarfed in it's job by Powerful Build and Strongarm Bracers, but each have their cost. PB costs you 1 level, or 3000 xp, depending on whether or not you play with buy-off and your DM follows the "xp is a river" theory. Strongarm Bracers cost your Arm slot, which is a common place to stick a handful of other useful magic items, and 6000g, meaning its not available from level 1. They do, however, take away the -2 penalty for inappropriate sized weapons.

So yea, depending on how you build your character, there are potentially other, better options, but its not ALWAYS a trap. It just depends on what else you want to do.

[mickeymacattack]

The bolded statement backs up my interpretation. If you have EWP: Bastard Sword and you wield a large sized bastard sword, it would be a 2-handed weapon unless you ALSO had Powerful Build, Strongarm Bracers, or Monkey Grip.

Ok that's the explanation I was looking for.... Unfortunately I just realized I dont have the stats to pull this off, took a closer look at kensai and I need combat expertise. I ended up doing 4d6 rolls for my character and came out with decent stats but not enough for something like this.

17
15
12
11
9
8

So any thoughts on what I could do with this fighter with these stats? I was planning on doing half orc, the strength bonus is nice as is the dark vision since we are doing an underground campaign.

I should point out that I only have access to the core books as well as all the "Complete" books, so no ToB or anything fancy.

[Keld Denar]

If you go Dwarf, you can do the same thing with a Waraxe, which also gets you into the awesome Deepwarden PrC. Deepwarden allows you to dump Dex, for the most part, and just pump Str and Con.

Ranger1/Barbarian2/Fighter2/Deepwarden2/EWM1 is pretty solid for level 8. Ranger1 kinda needs to be first or you'll have some REAL issues qualifying for Deepwarden by ECL5.

From there, lots of options. I like to nab Steadfast Determination to boost Will saves with Con instead of Wisdom, allowing you to dump Wisdom as well. Basically, all you need are Str, Con, and at least a 10 Int to meet skill reqs. Pretty low in demand.

Otherwise, become a bear. Its a rather polarizing option, but when the fur starts to fly and things get grizzly, few will be able to resist your right to bear arms.

[Taelas]

And yes, if you have the Str bonus, Uncanny Blow is an awesome tactic that works pretty nicely. It should also be noted that Dwarves can do the same thing with Waraxes and Urgroshes, which is likewise fun.

Actually, no. Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic.

Any other race can do it with the dwarven waraxe, though.

[Keld Denar]

Again, just because you treat it as martial doesn't make it any less exotic. If you look at the tag attached to the handle, it doesn't say "exotic, unless you're a dwarf".

[Greenish]

Actually, no. Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic.And Exotic Weapon Master has specific language enabling it to work, regardless.

Even if dwarves treat said weapons as martial, they're still exotic weapons, and count as "the exotic weapon for which [you] have weapon focus feat" for the tricks.

[Taelas]

That's exactly what the Weapon Familiarity racial ability does.

A dwarf has proficiency in the weapon if he has martial weapon proficiencies. He cannot choose to treat it as an exotic weapon, anymore than he could choose to treat a longsword as one.

EDIT: As Greenish points out, the class has specific text which allows it to pass, so I'll bow out.

[Greenish]

That's exactly what the Weapon Familiarity racial ability does.

A dwarf has proficiency in the weapon if he has martial weapon proficiencies. He cannot choose to treat it as an exotic weapon, anymore than he could choose to treat a longsword as one.Bolded for your benefit:
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.

[Keld Denar]

Whats the difference between a dwarf wielding a Waraxe and a Human with EWP: Waraxe wielding a Waraxe?

Nothing. Both have proficiency with the weapon. The EXOTIC weapon. Proficiency doesn't make it any less exotic, unless you have a rules citation I'm not aware of?

EDIT: Or Greenish's citation...that works too...

[mickeymacattack]

If you go Dwarf, you can do the same thing with a Waraxe, which also gets you into the awesome Deepwarden PrC. Deepwarden allows you to dump Dex, for the most part, and just pump Str and Con.

Unfortunately I dont have access to the deepwarden as its from RoS, I only get to use core books as well as the "Complete" books.


From there, lots of options. I like to nab Steadfast Determination to boost Will saves with Con instead of Wisdom, allowing you to dump Wisdom as well. Basically, all you need are Str, Con, and at least a 10 Int to meet skill reqs. Pretty low in demand.

Always a solid choice for a fighter.


Otherwise, become a bear. Its a rather polarizing option, but when the fur starts to fly and things get grizzly, few will be able to resist your right to bear arms.

While I am a fan of the bear warrior is doesn't really fit the character. Especially since I lose the ability to use my weapon in bear form.

[Cog]

...unless you have a rules citation I'm not aware of?

EDIT: Or Greenish's citation...that works too...
Actually, I think Greenish's quote backs Szar_Lakol up. You may treat it as a martial weapon rather than an exotic weapon, not as well as an exotic weapon. EWM overrides this, of course, and there's other instances of wonkiness related to that - Revenant Blade requires EWP, for example, even though Valenar elves get the double scimitar as a martial weapon.

Edit:

My DM is also using XP penalties so I am trying not to multiclass too much.
That build incurs no XP penalties.

[Greenish]

Actually, I think Greenish's quote backs Szar_Lakol up. You may treat it as a martial weapon rather than an exotic weapon, not as well as an exotic weapon."May treat as a martial weapon" is not the same as "is a martial weapon for you".

Revenant Blade doesn't even require proficiency with Valenar Double Scimitar, amusingly enough.

[edit]: Except that Weapon Focus requires proficiency. Bladebearer of Valenar might get you past that, but I don't find it too likely.

[Cog]

"May treat as a martial weapon" is not the same as "is a martial weapon for you".
Right. A dwarf wielding an urgrosh would have a choice; he could either wield it as a martial weapon or an exotic weapon. That's more flexibility than a non-dwarf would have when wielding the weapon, but it still doesn't turn an "or" into an "and".

[Hiro Protagonest]

Right. A dwarf wielding an urgrosh would have a choice; he could either wield it as a martial weapon or an exotic weapon. That's more flexibility than a non-dwarf would have when wielding the weapon, but it still doesn't turn an "or" into an "and".

Now you're just saying that they have proficiency some of the time, but nearly trip over the blade other times.

In a situation the rules are ambiguous about, it's better to go with common sense.

[Taelas]

I believe Cog's point is that the choice is only made once, and is permanent.

[Greenish]

Right. A dwarf wielding an urgrosh would have a choice; he could either wield it as a martial weapon or an exotic weapon.How he wields it is irrelevant. It's an exotic weapon even if he treats it as a martial one due to weapon familiarity.

Weapon Familiarity doesn't change a weapon's category from Exotic to Martial, merely allows you to treat it as the latter.

[Cog]

I believe Cog's point is that the choice is only made once, and is permanent.
No, I think they can choose freely at any time. They just have to choose; just like you have to choose whether you're wielding a halberd as a slashing or a piercing weapon. (Beyond the strict RAW, between Exotic weapon Master and Revenant Blade, I'm fine with letting it be treated as martial and exotic simultaneously. I'm just exploring the actual RAW here because I find it interesting to do so, and because some people might want to follow a stricter reading of the rules than me.)


Now you're just saying that they have proficiency some of the time, but nearly trip over the blade other times.

In a situation the rules are ambiguous about, it's better to go with common sense.
I suggested no such thing. The 'common sense' choice would be for the dwarf to wield it as a martial weapon if he doesn't have the appropriate exotic proficiency. :smallconfused:


How he wields it is irrelevant. It's an exotic weapon even if he treats it as a martial one due to weapon familiarity.
If our dwarf is somehow benefiting from the weapon being exotic, then he is not treating it as a martial weapon. The familiarity feature doesn't say "may treat as martial for purposes of proficiency"; it's "treat as martial", period.

It is still an exotic weapon, yes. But without an escape clause like Exotic Weapon Master has, that's irrelevant to how the dwarf is using it.

[Greenish]

(Beyond the strict RAW, between Exotic weapon Master and Revenant BladeRevenant Blade doesn't require EWP for Valenar Double Scimitar, and Exotic Weapon Master explicitly allows weapon familiarity to work.

If our dwarf is somehow benefiting from the weapon being exotic, then he is not treating it as a martial weapon.That doesn't make any sense to me. The class feature in question only requires an exotic one-handed weapon, which Dwarven waraxe obviously is. How the dwarf is treating it doesn't enter the picture.

EWM specifically says that the tricks work for "any exotic weapon for which he has the Weapon Focus feat." Dwarven Waraxe is an exotic weapon, and assumedly you have weapon focus on it, so it fulfills all requirements.

There is no class feature that I'm aware of that requires you to treat a weapon as an exotic weapon.

[Cog]

Revenant Blade doesn't require EWP for Valenar Double Scimitar, and Exotic Weapon Master explicitly allows weapon familiarity to work.
Looking at the book again, I see it's Shield of Blades on the page before that requires the EWP instead. I just associated it with Revenant because it's in nearby, but it's the same issue regardless. I've been horrible with my citations today, though. :smalltongue:


That doesn't make any sense to me. The class feature in question only requires an exotic one-handed weapon, which Dwarven waraxe obviously is. How the dwarf is treating it doesn't enter the picture.
Let's go back to the halberd example. Say we've got a character with Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing). Would he gain those bonuses if he were making a piercing attack with the halberd just because a halberd can be wielded as a slashing weapon?


EWM specifically says that the tricks work for "any exotic weapon for which he has the Weapon Focus feat." Dwarven Waraxe is an exotic weapon, and assumedly you have weapon focus on it, so it fulfills all requirements.

There is no class feature that I'm aware of that requires you to treat a weapon as an exotic weapon.
And EWM has it's own relevant clauses anyway. I'm not aware of any particular class feature or feat either, so no, I don't know if this would actually come up or not.

[mickeymacattack]

Honestly people? While I appreciate the vast amount of postings on the subject, could you please make a new thread if you want to debate the validity of weapon familiarity?

I am asking for assistance with a character, I got my answer regarding how the mechanics should work, but would still like some help developing him.

[Greenish]

Looking at the book again, I see it's Shield of Blades on the page before that requires the EWP instead. I just associated it with Revenant because it's in nearby, but it's the same issue regardless. I've been horrible with my citations today, though. :smalltongue:I almost pointed that out myself, but the feat in question is so miserably I preferred to let it rot in obscurity it so richly deserves. :smallamused:

Let's go back to the halberd example. Say we've got a character with Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing). Would he gain those bonuses if he were making a piercing attack with the halberd just because a halberd can be wielded as a slashing weapon?Yes, since the feat rather clearly states that it works on any weapon which has the appropriate damage type.

That's not the same thing though, since a dwarven waraxe isn't both a martial weapon and an exotic weapon. It's only an exotic weapon.

[Marnath]

How so? Its not like your EWP feat turns off when you put your second hand on the weapon. A normal person (read person w/o EWP) treats a bastard sword in both hands as a 2handed weapon. A person with EWP, however, treats a bastard sword in both hands as a 1 handed exotic weapon wielded in both hands. While superficially, they are similar, they are not the same. The difference is that if the normal person takes a hand off the weapon (to do something else), they basically lose use of the weapon just the same as a person with a greatsword would. A person with EWP, however, can take their 2nd hand off and still use the weapon, just as a normal person wielding a longsword could.



That's pretty convoluted, but I see where you're going with it. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't rule it that way, but then again melee has a hard enough time already so it wouldn't hurt to allow it.

[Keld Denar]

How is it convoluted?

Fact 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponDescriptions): The Waraxe is exotic. It doesn't matter if a human is holding it, or a dwarf, or a thri-kreen. It appears on the table of exotic weapons. It is exotic.
Fact 2 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#dwarves): If you are a dwarf and if you have proficiency with martial weapons, you are also proficient with a Waraxe.
Fact 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#waraxeDwarven): If you are proficient with a Waraxe, you may treat it as a one handed weapon (ie wield it in one hand without penalties).
Fact 4 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#lightOneHandedandTwoHandedMeleeWeapons ): You may wield any one handed weapon in both hands for greater benefit (2:1 PA and 1.5x +Str).

All of the above statements are true, by their citations. For a dwarf, a Waraxe is a one handed weapon. That is exotic. That he may opt to wield in both hands.

[Marnath]

How is it convoluted?

Fact 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponDescriptions): The Waraxe is exotic. It doesn't matter if a human is holding it, or a dwarf, or a thri-kreen. It appears on the table of exotic weapons. It is exotic.
Fact 2 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#dwarves): If you are a dwarf and if you have proficiency with martial weapons, you are also proficient with a Waraxe.
Fact 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#waraxeDwarven): If you are proficient with a Waraxe, you may treat it as a one handed weapon (ie wield it in one hand without penalties).
Fact 4 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#lightOneHandedandTwoHandedMeleeWeapons ): You may wield any one handed weapon in both hands for greater benefit (2:1 PA and 1.5x +Str).

All of the above statements are true, by their citations. For a dwarf, a Waraxe is a one handed weapon. That is exotic. That he may opt to wield in both hands.

I'm curious what relevance any of that has to what I said, considering I was talking about the bastard sword. Waraxe is easy, because it's not usable twohanded as a martial weapon, totally different situation.

*edit: yes you can, and I'm an imbecile. Disregard.

[mickeymacattack]

So going back to my question regarding character help.... Does anyone have any suggestions using the stats 17, 15, 12, 11, 9, 8 and the core books along with all of the "Complete" books?