Batman VS a mid-optimized lich [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Fan

2011-05-13, 06:02 PM

Green lantern Batman
http://mob293.photobucket.com/albums/mm62/DaDiff51/motivational%20posters/batmanLantern.png?t=1252428387

Winner is... Batman.

Epic Magic.:smalltongue:

Lich is a Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Loredrake Kobold Lich.:smalltongue:

Alternatively, Avascular Mass, reflex + fort save to avoid stun, and no save half of your HP gone.

Follow by a quickened Greater Dispel magic targeted on Batman, you're garunteed to get quite a few "magitech" toolbelt items, if not the whole damn toolbelt, and then the ring for sure.

Suddenly. Not so great.

Forum Explorer

2011-05-13, 06:05 PM

Epic Magic.:smalltongue:

Lich is a Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Loredrake Kobold Lich.:smalltongue:

Alternatively, Avascular Mass, reflex + fort save to avoid stun, and no save half of your HP gone.

Follow by a quickened Greater Dispel magic targeted on Batman, you're garunteed to get quite a few "magitech" toolbelt items, if not the whole damn toolbelt, and then the ring for sure.

Suddenly. Not so great.

They aren't fighting remember. Its who would be a better crimefighter.

Fan

2011-05-13, 06:06 PM

They aren't fighting remember. Its who would be a better crimefighter.

Ah, then Wizard.

Wizard has a scrying pool, divination every day for the exact location of every crime, and Teleport other into Arkham.

Doesn't even have to wait for the Police.

Chambers

2011-05-13, 06:09 PM

Epic Magic.:smalltongue:

A Power Ring IS Epic Magic. :smallwink:

Fan

2011-05-13, 06:11 PM

ThirdEmperor

2011-05-13, 06:15 PM

Slayn82

2011-05-13, 06:16 PM

Well, remember its just a mid-optimized lich.

A true optimized lich would just end up dominating the entire city and be done with it.

But then, Batman would probably find some moral flaws with that plan...

Fan

2011-05-13, 06:17 PM

A green ring can summon an army of energy constructs, allow it's user to dive through the sun, and destroy planets. It's an epic level artifact in the right hands, although not the most powerful artifact. Batman would just create a million BatConstructs to police Gotham.

Correction, such abilities were never shown in the Lantern Corps V.S. Sinestro Corps wars, and the Green Lantern Ring can also never kill normally. This was a major plot point in said arc which included the Return of ION.

The only ring that CAN make an army of energy constructs is the Orange Lantern ring which has that as it's explicit ability to differenate itself from the other rings.

Forum Explorer

2011-05-13, 06:26 PM

Ah, then Wizard.

Wizard has a scrying pool, divination every day for the exact location of every crime, and Teleport other into Arkham.

Doesn't even have to wait for the Police.

I agree mostly. Use Lich's paralyzing touch to incapacitate foes then teleport them to prison.

By the way the Lich shouldn't get epic spells, afterall its level 20 not level 21 so it can't get the epic magic just like it says in OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

Fan

2011-05-13, 06:27 PM

I agree mostly. Use Lich's paralyzing touch to incapacitate foes then teleport them to prison.

By the way the Lich shouldn't get epic spells, afterall its level 20 not level 21 so it can't get the epic magic just like it says in OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

There are ways around that.

Selrahc

2011-05-13, 06:40 PM

No..

No it's not.

A power ring doesn't explode Solar Systems by itself, transfer itself into a perfect body with any special ability it can dream up, or allow it's user to be perfectly invulnerable.

Neither does Epic magic, unless it uses an infinite army of Solars or other planar spellcasting beasts for mitigation. If the DM doesn't approve the spells needed to get the infinite army, then none of the other potential uses are possible.

The idea of using epic spells to do stuff like create planets is interesting and fun. Most of the suggested methods to get the mitigation needed for those feats are boring and cheesy.

And of course, no way does a ECL20 wizard with 4la and mid optimization have access to epic magic. Just stick to the normal wizard spells. There is a more than diverse assemblage to pick from.

Fan

2011-05-13, 06:44 PM

Neither does Epic magic, unless it uses an infinite army of Solars or other planar spellcasting beasts for mitigation. If the DM doesn't approve the spells needed to get the infinite army, then none of the other potential uses are possible.

The idea of using epic spells to do stuff like create planets is interesting and fun. Most of the suggested methods to get the mitigation needed for those feats are boring and cheesy.

And of course, no way does a ECL20 wizard with 4la and mid optimization have access to epic magic. Just stick to the normal wizard spells. There is a more than diverse assemblage to pick from.

But then again, so is Green Lantern Batman.

Eric Tolle

2011-05-13, 06:52 PM

Neither wins, because stopping crime in Gotham is like trying to invade the Abyss.

Sure The lich and Batman may both put criminals in jail, but they'll be out on the streets again shortly. And even if the Lich uses spells to dominate criminals to stop committing crime, uses scrying to find all the corrupt cops and judges, and teleports all the gang lords to azerbaijani prisons, all of them will be shortly replaced by the infinite supply of criminals that Gotham has. Because Gotham is the elemental plane of futility.

Selrahc

2011-05-13, 06:54 PM

I don't think Green Lantern Batman is a good idea either.

This isn't actually a versus thread. We already know what Batman has done, so discussing him is almost irrelevant. This is a challenge of the Lich against Gotham.

ZombyWoof

2011-05-13, 06:57 PM

The Lich by far. Never underestimate the power of CL 17 magics. No power in the verse can stop level9 Sorc/Wiz spells :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone

2011-05-13, 07:29 PM

The Lich by far. Never underestimate the power of CL 17 magics. No power in the verse can stop level9 Sorc/Wiz spells :smalltongue:

This one might. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JoeQuesada)

Chambers

2011-05-13, 07:59 PM

The Lich be better, I suppose, because he has mind controlling magic that he can use on city officials to force them to improve the city and remove a lot of the socio economic factors that contribute to crime.

Erts

2011-05-14, 11:21 AM

And any batman can be used.

Green lantern Batman
http://mob293.photobucket.com/albums/mm62/DaDiff51/motivational%20posters/batmanLantern.png?t=1252428387

Winner is... Batman.

I see your Green lantern Batman and raise you a Superman Batman (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/SupermanSpeedingBullets.jpg). He still is a version of Batman!
I think the guy who can lift well over a million tons and move at Mach 9305 (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman_(Clark_Kent)#Powers) can take a lich at crimefighting.

Fan

2011-05-14, 11:58 AM

I see your Green lantern Batman and raise you a Superman Batman (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/SupermanSpeedingBullets.jpg). He still is a version of Batman!
I think the guy who can lift well over a million tons and move at Mach 9305 (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman_(Clark_Kent)#Powers) can take a lich at crimefighting.

But with Superman, you get Lex Joker, and Doomsied.

Ergo, he is just as effective at fighting crime in his respective version.

Also, again, if you guys are cheesing.

Locate City Bomb but with Energy Substitution (Holy), and Sanctified it only deals nonlethal damage to normal people, and auto kills anyone of evil alignment.

And then you chain gate in 1 billion solars to forever keep an internal vigil while ensuring the individual happiness of every single being in Gotham.

Traab

2011-05-14, 12:29 PM

Lich wins because he is more likely to summarily execute any criminals he comes across. And with his abilities, im fairly sure he can do something like cast dimensional anchor on their souls so they STAY in hell.

Selrahc

2011-05-14, 12:36 PM

Locate City Bomb but with Energy Substitution (Holy), and Sanctified it only deals nonlethal damage to normal people, and auto kills anyone of evil alignment.

Evil alignment does not mean that someone isn't a valuable part of society, or a perfectly law abiding citizen. Doing stuff like that is just going to get the superhero community angry. As will any widescale mindraping.

And an ECL20 wizard is not a match for the entire DC superhero community.

If he gets treated as a supervillain, he loses.

If he doesn't want to be treated as a supervillain, he needs to stick to a code of ethics. It can be murkier than Batman's, but it has to fundamentally be justifiable to the JLA and other groups. Or they will have to shut you down.

Eldan

2011-05-14, 12:56 PM

Neither wins, because stopping crime in Gotham is like trying to invade the Abyss.

Call the Harmonium!

The result would be glorious. Bloody, horrible and glorious.

Erts

2011-05-14, 02:24 PM

But with Superman, you get Lex Joker, and Doomsied.

Ergo, he is just as effective at fighting crime in his respective version.

Also, again, if you guys are cheesing.

Locate City Bomb but with Energy Substitution (Holy), and Sanctified it only deals nonlethal damage to normal people, and auto kills anyone of evil alignment.

And then you chain gate in 1 billion solars to forever keep an internal vigil while ensuring the individual happiness of every single being in Gotham.

Post was not meant to be taken seriously.
Selrahc is right, if the lich acts in a way that would be considered evil by the rest of the superhero community, he will be taken down.

AtlanteanTroll

2011-05-14, 02:32 PM

Any Batman? How about Dark Claw?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8d/Dark_claw.jpg
It's freaking Batman with the power of Wolverine.

Traab

2011-05-14, 02:34 PM

Post was not meant to be taken seriously.
Selrahc is right, if the lich acts in a way that would be considered evil by the rest of the superhero community, he will be taken down.

.... Hes a lich. CAN liches be good? On a side note, what about my idea of killing bad guys then anchoring their souls in hell so they cant escape? Only go to that trouble for the big fish, the jokers two faces etc. Thugs just get dropped off at jail since they dont tend to escape as easily.

druid91

2011-05-14, 02:48 PM

Tiki Snakes

2011-05-14, 02:53 PM

.... Hes a lich. CAN liches be good? On a side note, what about my idea of killing bad guys then anchoring their souls in hell so they cant escape? Only go to that trouble for the big fish, the jokers two faces etc. Thugs just get dropped off at jail since they dont tend to escape as easily.

Then he's just another killer, and reguardless of the actual crime-rate in gotham, has proved a worse crimefighter.

Also, there's the spells/day thing. I mean, sure, the lich has some serious bang for buck, but 8 hours a day to renew spells, and a maximum number per day? I'm willing to guess that there have been many events for batman in gotham that preclude such leisurely a lifestyle as facing a finite and knowable number of crisis per day and leaving time for a full 8 hour nap, but I could well be wrong.

Chambers

2011-05-14, 03:54 PM

Then he's just another killer, and reguardless of the actual crime-rate in gotham, has proved a worse crimefighter.

Also, there's the spells/day thing. I mean, sure, the lich has some serious bang for buck, but 8 hours a day to renew spells, and a maximum number per day? I'm willing to guess that there have been many events for batman in gotham that preclude such leisurely a lifestyle as facing a finite and knowable number of crisis per day and leaving time for a full 8 hour nap, but I could well be wrong.

The Lich goes to his private demi-plane which has a favorable time ratio to Gotham. He rests for 8 hours, 24 hours or even a week or more and spends only perhaps a minute away from Gotham.

Selrahc

2011-05-14, 04:12 PM

The Lich goes to his private demi-plane which has a favorable time ratio to Gotham. He rests for 8 hours, 24 hours or even a week or more and spends only perhaps a minute away from Gotham.

Incidentally.. what spell is that? It isn't part of genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htmhttp://). Unless the flow of time counts in "Water, temperature and the basic shape of the landscape".

The Glyphstone

2011-05-14, 04:43 PM

Incidentally.. what spell is that? It isn't part of genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htmhttp://). Unless the flow of time counts in "Water, temperature and the basic shape of the landscape".

First, that is the greatest 404 Error page I have ever seen.

Second, you meant this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm

It's generally accepted that time traits are part of the 'environment', which you are allowed to define in the first sentence, since the Psionic Genesis equivalent explicitly calls out time as being fixed at 1-1 with the Prime.

Selrahc

2011-05-14, 04:57 PM

It's generally accepted that time traits are part of the 'environment', which you are allowed to define in the first sentence, since the Psionic Genesis equivalent explicitly calls out time as being fixed at 1-1 with the Prime.

Hm.

Sounds like a dodgy reading of the statement, which is then clarified by a later spell.

Shouldn't thay have mentioned the capacity to change time in the description? It massively changes the usage of the spell from "Absolutely Awesome Secret Base made by RAW MAGICAL POWER" to "Free Time".

Moglorosh

2011-05-14, 05:39 PM

.... Hes a lich. CAN liches be good?

Depends on the setting. A vast majority of the time? No.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-14, 05:54 PM

Hm.

Sounds like a dodgy reading of the statement, which is then clarified by a later spell.

Shouldn't thay have mentioned the capacity to change time in the description? It massively changes the usage of the spell from "Absolutely Awesome Secret Base made by RAW MAGICAL POWER" to "Free Time".

hence why Arcane Genesis is considered to be top-tier cheese.

Tirian

2011-05-14, 09:05 PM

.... Hes a lich. CAN liches be good?

The lich is not being asked to be good. The lich is asked to prevent crime in a city. Perhaps it's an evil city.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-14, 09:20 PM

The lich is not being asked to be good. The lich is asked to prevent crime in a city. Perhaps it's an evil city.

It's Gotham City, specifically. There is good, and evil, and neutral.

Dr.Epic

2011-05-14, 09:22 PM

And any batman can be used.

Even Adam West? I'd love to see a dance off between those two.

Traab

2011-05-14, 09:34 PM

The lich is not being asked to be good. The lich is asked to prevent crime in a city. Perhaps it's an evil city.
The reason i asked was because of a comment about the justice league and how they would step in if lichman started acting all evil on gotham. I merely wanted to know if liches were even capable of being good.

Kyuu Himura

2011-05-14, 09:34 PM

Even Adam West? I'd love to see a dance off between those two.

Anti-lich spray, anyone?? :smallbiggrin:

In other news, Batman is a better crimefighter, most of the wizard tricks here explained make it look like the wizard doesn't care about the city (really?? a locate city bomb?? seriously??) while batman, even though he is a vigilante, actually is quite respectfull of the law (doesn't kill or put the baddies into his own prison or anything like that, and he tries to keep a healthy respect between him and the cops, so they won't get themselves in danger while he's trying to stop the joker)

Finally, given that most of the "Stop crime forever" wizard tricks are pretty evil, he is limited to bigger versions of batman's tricks, therefore, he is not a better crimefighter, just a guy with bigger toys.

Fan

2011-05-14, 09:38 PM

Anti-lich spray, anyone?? :smallbiggrin:

In other news, Batman is a better crimefighter, most of the wizard tricks here explained make it look like the wizard doesn't care about the city (really?? a locate city bomb?? seriously??) while batman, even though he is a vigilante, actually is quite respectfull of the law (doesn't kill or put the baddies into his own prison or anything like that, and he tries to keep a healthy respect between him and the cops, so they won't get themselves in danger while he's trying to stop the joker)

Finally, given that most of the "Stop crime forever" wizard tricks are pretty evil, he is limited to bigger versions of batman's tricks, therefore, he is not a better crimefighter, just a guy with bigger toys.

Having a literal Angel dedicated to your life long happiness provided it's not at the expense of others is evil?

Damn.. I've been living life all wrong.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-14, 09:43 PM

chain-gating solars only works if you coerce/mindrape them into sticking around after the 1 round/CL. Yes, brainwashing literal angels into doing your bidding is evil.

And that's not even touching step one of that plan, which involved the mass extermination of all non-good people in the city to begin with.

Traab

2011-05-14, 09:49 PM

Is there a wizards spell that could be used to reinforce the prison they get locked up in so they cant escape? Basically, anything the lich could do to make it harder to break out of arkham would put him several levels above batman. Its like bruce just forgets about the bad guys once he drops them off again at the asylum. You would think the worlds greatest detective would reach the conclusion that it would be a good idea to try and upgrade the security there so they cant keep busting out. Im sure wayne tech has SOMETHING they could donate.

Tirian

2011-05-14, 09:51 PM

It's Gotham City, specifically. There is good, and evil, and neutral.

I was trying to channel Agatha Heterodyne for a moment there. ("A merry-go-round with enough firepower to level a small town?" "Well, it could be a really *evil* town....")

Point is, reducing crime in a city does not necessarily have to be a good act. Even speaking specifically of the Batman universe, Gotham City has had many protectors and would-be protectors and more than a few have been non-good. The OP might want to check out the "Batman and Dracula: Red Rain" trilogy in which Batman becomes a vampire and tries to work around it.

Dr.Epic

2011-05-15, 03:59 AM

Anti-lich spray, anyone?? :smallbiggrin:

Wouldn't be the dumbest, most illogical thing associated with Batman.

http://images.wikia.com/batman/images/d/d3/GothCard.jpg

Johel

2011-05-15, 02:12 PM

So...

No unnecessary killing : if the villain can be arrested without the Lich's phylactery or innocent lives being threatened, we don't kill.
No brainwash/domination : people still get their free will and keep their personality. This doesn't mean there are no consequence to their acts.
No torture or permanent maiming : people won't be drown into abyssal pain or loose their limbs because "it's necessary for justice".

Fine.

As a ECL 20 Lich, I am a 16th Level Wizard, correct ?
I have access to several spells, the highest of which are 8th Level spells.

Nightly patrols in the streets :
Phantom Steed + Overland Flight
16 hours of flight.
Flying at 240 feet/round, that's 43 km/h.
Cars can go way faster but hey... not bad, yet.
And if they kill my "Batmobile", I still can fly on my own, albeit slower.
Greater Prying Eyes
17 eyes, patrolling 1 mile around me, for 16 hours
Extend Locate Creature
I detect the presence of any human, 1.040 feet away, for 5 hours
This means I cannot lose track of somebody.
Also, I can easily cast it 3 times per day.
Permanent Heighten Symbol of Persuasion
If any evil-doers is detected, he WILL listen and obey.
And if they don't...
Summon Monster III
1d4+1 Celestial Dogs are more than enough to dispatch regular thugs.
Summon Monster VI
1d4+1 Celestial Giant Eagles should do for the more agile thugs.
1d4+1 Celestial Lions should do for the more robust thugs.

Rightous Terror :
Permanent Symbol of Persuasion
Going through the streets with a megaphone, screaming :
"-BatLich is your friend. Committing crimes make your friend very sad.
If you committed a crime in the last 30 days, report it to the police.
It will make BatLich happy. It will make your friend happy."
Of course, this means those who do resist this are the more strong-minded or evil of the lot.

Because I don't want to die wait 10 days
Mage Armor
16 hours armor. Yeah...
Protection from Arrows
I may have to search a way to replace "Arrows" by "Bullets".
But since I cannot sleep, I have spare time.
Contingency + Resilient Sphere
Just in case there's something I cannot block/dodge/endure
Resilient Sphere
For that annoying second rocket launcher...
Teleport
Really, I don't want to die resurrect

Now, that's not as stealthy as Batman.
But hey... we want result, now, do we ? :smallamused:

Venom3053000

2011-05-15, 03:00 PM

Kyuu Himura

2011-05-15, 03:20 PM

This really is not a good match for batman. Batman limits himsef to the best stuff on earth but he has access to some of the best stuff in the univere, so that he will not lose control and become a tryrant.

Agreed, that's what I like of Batman.

Permanent Symbol of Persuasion
Going through the streets with a megaphone, screaming :
"-BatLich is your friend. Committing crimes make your friend very sad.
If you committed a crime in the last 30 days, report it to the police.
It will make BatLich happy. It will make your friend happy."

Disagree, Symbol of Persuasion only charms, therefore, the charmed people won't do for you something they wouldn't do normally, just like you wouldn't chop your own arm just because because a trusted friend or lover asked you (and I mean it, prison can be really bad, so I would really call it a harmful comand)

Summon Monster III
1d4+1 Celestial Dogs are more than enough to dispatch regular thugs.
Summon Monster VI
1d4+1 Celestial Giant Eagles should do for the more agile thugs.
1d4+1 Celestial Lions should do for the more robust thugs.

Kingdom Come had batman using Batknights, if I am not wrong, as I said, Batman toys and wizard toys differ on size, not on function.

Fan

2011-05-15, 03:44 PM

Wouldn't be the dumbest, most illogical thing associated with Batman.

http://images.wikia.com/batman/images/d/d3/GothCard.jpg

Shopped.

And again, this isn't an argument of who is good or evil, but who can stop crime best.

Chain Gated Solars, Chain Gated Titans, and that Symbol of Persuasion broadcast on every channel eliminates crime 100%.

Batman doesn't have the magic ability to literally see everywhere at once, so.. even if he only leaves .00001% of crime in Gotham, he loses.

Reverent-One

2011-05-15, 03:59 PM

Chain Gated Solars,

Your argument falls apart here (and doesn't really get any better later, but that doesn't really matter). This is Batman vs a mid-optimized lich. Chain gating anything is not mid-optimization.

Fan

2011-05-15, 04:27 PM

Your argument falls apart here (and doesn't really get any better later, but that doesn't really matter). This is Batman vs a mid-optimized lich. Chain gating anything is not mid-optimization.

Depends on your definition of mid optimization.

After all, Chain Gating is far from the cheesiest thing you can do..

It's just a stepping stone to a lot of them.

Alternatively he just creates a bunch of constructs, awakens them, thought bottle to regain XP, repeat ad nauseam.

Reverent-One

2011-05-15, 04:32 PM

Depends on your definition of mid optimization.

After all, Chain Gating is far from the cheesiest thing you can do..

It's just a stepping stone to a lot of them.

Alternatively he just creates a bunch of constructs, awakens them, thought bottle to regain XP, repeat ad nauseam.

And how do you justify infinite loops as mid-optimization? As a rule of thumb, anything that would result in a reasonable DM throwing a DMG at you outside of a specifically high-optimization game is not going to be mid-optimization.

Selrahc

2011-05-15, 04:40 PM

Depends on your definition of mid optimization.

After all, Chain Gating is far from the cheesiest thing you can do..

It's just a stepping stone to a lot of them.

Alternatively he just creates a bunch of constructs, awakens them, thought bottle to regain XP, repeat ad nauseam.

Listen.

You've got a different definition of "Mid optimization" than everybody else.
Why don't you just imagine this is a low optimization Lich?

Fan

2011-05-15, 05:32 PM

And how do you justify infinite loops as mid-optimization? As a rule of thumb, anything that would result in a reasonable DM throwing a DMG at you outside of a specifically high-optimization game is not going to be mid-optimization.

Infinite loops?

Well obviously they are cheesy.

But so is Superman Batman with Wolverine regeneration.

It was a response to the honestly.. silly.. versions of batman that were brought up.

Reverent-One

2011-05-15, 06:03 PM

Infinite loops?

Well obviously they are cheesy.

So we agree chain gating and the like is outside the bounds of this discussion for the Lich then. Very good.

But so is Superman Batman with Wolverine regeneration.

It was a response to the honestly.. silly.. versions of batman that were brought up.

Any version of Batman was listed as acceptable in the OP, while the Lich is specifically limited to mid-optimization only.

Fan

2011-05-15, 07:24 PM

So we agree chain gating and the like is outside the bounds of this discussion for the Lich then. Very good.

Any version of Batman was listed as acceptable in the OP, while the Lich is specifically limited to mid-optimization only.

That doesn't make that not a totally lame argument, as none of those batmen are canon...

Traab

2011-05-15, 07:32 PM

That doesn't make that not a totally lame argument, as none of those batmen are canon...

He said any version, and as an example, here is the batman with supermans power comic. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Speeding_Bullets) Sure its a one shot, but its not fake.

*EDIT* So is the wolverine/batman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Claw)

Reverent-One

2011-05-15, 07:34 PM

That doesn't make that not a totally lame argument, as none of those batmen are canon...

And where did the OP say we were using the canon Earth-1 universe comic book version of batman? Granted, I agree we should discuss this standard version of batman as well, but given the sheer number of alternate universe versions of batman that exist, comparing multiple versions of batman should be entertaining.

For example, how does Red Son batman's choice of headgear alter his chances? :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone

2011-05-15, 07:37 PM

Heck, let's expand it the other way...no one said it has to be a Wizard Lich.

There's the classic Wizard Lich, a Cleric Lich...you could do the Dread Necromancer 20, who becomes a Lich for free at the end of his progression...each of those will have very different methods of 'keeping the peace'.

Fan

2011-05-15, 07:57 PM

WitchSlayer

2011-05-15, 08:02 PM

In other news, the famous Green Lantern Batman picture is a comic cover... where Batman admits he can't become a Green Lantern because he can't give up the memory of his parents' death. Thus Green Lantern Batman is kind of out of the running. However there are likely crazier powerful incarnations of Batman.

Heck, Frank Miller Batman beats anyone because Frank Miller is crazy for Batman.

Traab

2011-05-15, 08:05 PM

Again, totally lame.

Call me crazy, but there's nothing fun about having an argument where we have SuperBatman with a Green Lantern Ring against a guy who is limited specifically to not be able to win the argument.:smallsigh:

Superbatman doesnt have a green lantern ring. Green lantern batman was an altogether different fella. Anyways, the reason why the lich is restricted is because he could pretty much cast wish, "Gotham no longer has any criminals in it" or something to that effect, and bango, jobs done, lich wins. Yeah I know its not quite that easy, the wish could be twisted, etc, but its just an example. A fully optimized lich character would be disgustingly overpowered in gotham.

Soren Hero

2011-05-15, 08:17 PM

Superbatman doesnt have a green lantern ring. Green lantern batman was an altogether different fella. Anyways, the reason why the lich is restricted is because he could pretty much cast wish, "Gotham no longer has any criminals in it" or something to that effect, and bango, jobs done, lich wins. Yeah I know its not quite that easy, the wish could be twisted, etc, but its just an example. A fully optimized lich character would be disgustingly overpowered in gotham.

i agree with traab that a fully optimized lich would be op in gotham...so, maybe we agree on some more ground rules for both batman and the lich?

lich:
no infinite loops, no super cheese (up to interpretation i guess)

batman:
mundane only?

Traab

2011-05-15, 08:29 PM

Personally, I was ok with any variation of batman that had an official comic written for it. Including those goofy mashups like Superbat, Baterine, and Batlantern. :p It seems to level the playing field a bit more, since classic batmans only real advantage is his brain, and lich/wizards arent exactly a stupid class right? Big on intellect? So he would almost NEED one of those extra advantages to matchup with an undead, magically delicious crime fighter competing for superiority in the crime fighting ranks of gotham.

chiasaur11

2011-05-15, 08:30 PM

Forum Explorer

2011-05-15, 08:34 PM

would superbat really be better then someone who can teleport in, poke the enemy, and teleport the now helpless enemy to prison?

Soren Hero

2011-05-15, 08:48 PM

personally, i view batman as the practical/theoretical optimization of mundane whose technology borders on the magical, and the Green Lantern/Superman/Wolverine versions of Batman are kinda silly. I feel that if batman vs the lich has to devolve into those levels of silliness (read: cheese) then the lich should at least get some cheese...so, i think that some more ground rules are necessary to make this discussion more productive (for lack of a better word). that being said, i would love to see super ultimate cheese batman vs mid-high cheese lich

rules:
1. define success (what's a good crime fighter?)
2. establish parameters to measure and rate success
3. determine what are acceptable means of achieving success (instantaneous mindrape BE GOOD may technically achieve success, but is it ok?)
4. narrow the scope of potential candidates and have them be compared head to head?

candidates (as a baseline for further discussion and elaboration):
-batman:
1. Adam West Batman (for the lulz)
2. Green Lantern Batman
3. Dark Knight Batman

-lich:
1. no cheese, core level 16 Cleric Lich?
2. mild cheese, core + complete Lich (maybe this is comparable to green lantern cheese?)
3. no stinky cheese, all core level 16 Wizard Lich

again..these are just suggestions to help the discussion

mootoall

2011-05-15, 08:57 PM

Damn, where's that one Batman and Robin "Multiclassing" demotivator ...

Flame of Anor

2011-05-16, 12:32 AM

everything

http://www.id-wall.com/images/large/MP010128-gumby.jpg

MY BRAIN HURTS

Gullintanni

2011-05-16, 08:59 AM

Wouldn't a Permanent Maximized Symbol of Weakness be brutally potent in a setting where nothing has SR, Fort Saves: Yes, and Superhuman strength? Just have the Lich tattoo it on his forehead.

Tiki Snakes

2011-05-16, 09:07 AM

Again, totally lame.

Call me crazy, but there's nothing fun about having an argument where we have SuperBatman with a Green Lantern Ring against a guy who is limited specifically to not be able to win the argument.:smallsigh:

so what you're saying is that a mid optimisation, fromage-free lich is not capable of being a better crimefighter than Batman?

Well, that settles that, then. :smallwink:

Fan

2011-05-16, 12:40 PM

so what you're saying is that a mid optimisation, fromage-free lich is not capable of being a better crimefighter than Batman?

Well, that settles that, then. :smallwink:

No, not a better crime fighter than a Batman that is also simultaneously superman. Which just so happens to stop being really batman at that point, due to batman's point being that he is not Super.

Any other version auto loses due to leaving a potential .000001% of crime.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-16, 12:42 PM

No, not a better crime fighter than a Batman that is also simultaneously superman.

Any other version auto loses due to leaving a potential .000001% of crime.

You've still failed to show how the lich can permanently wipe out 100% of crime without either infinite-loop cheese or gross violation of free will/human rights...the stuff that will get the rest of the Justice League on his butt and flatten him. This is comic-book world, so if he slips into outright villainy, he will lose regardless of his cheese; thus his only chance at 'victory' is to beat out Batman without being evil.

Fan

2011-05-16, 12:48 PM

You've still failed to show how the lich can permanently wipe out 100% of crime without either infinite-loop cheese or gross violation of free will/human rights...the stuff that will get the rest of the Justice League on his butt and flatten him. This is comic-book world, so if he slips into outright villainy, he will lose regardless of his cheese; thus his only chance at 'victory' is to beat out Batman without being evil.

It's not a matter of being good or evil, it's a matter of preventing crime.

Also a symbol of persuasion to stop Criminals from doing crime, and to make them surrender (surrender worded with appropriate terms is within the powers of compulsion.), is not evil..

Admittedly anything involving mind rape is, but imprisoning them in Temporal Stasis for those who refuse traditional conditioning methods.. isn't.

Rinse. Repeat. With every crime lord, etc.

Suddenly, no criminals, those who can be treated are, and people like the joker are kept in the equivalent of Cyro Stasis on a Genesis'd plane that can only be access'd by the wizard.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-16, 01:11 PM

It's not a matter of being good or evil, it's a matter of preventing crime.

But it is - that's Batman's entire shtick, his whole deal about how he constantly rides the edge of policing the endless crime of Gotham without tipping over into evil himself. It's symbolized by his "no-kill" policy, but that is one of Bat's core themes. To beat Batman at his own game, the lich has to play by the same rules, cleansing Gotham of its crime without resorting to outright evil methods. Otherwise he's not beating Batman, he's beating Azrael, or Man-Bat, or one of the 90's Batman anti-anti-hero parodies.

Fan

2011-05-16, 01:14 PM

But it is - that's Batman's entire shtick, his whole deal about how he constantly rides the edge of policing the endless crime of Gotham without tipping over into evil himself. It's symbolized by his "no-kill" policy, but that is one of Bat's core themes. To beat Batman at his own game, the lich has to play by the same rules, cleansing Gotham of its crime without resorting to outright evil methods. Otherwise he's not beating Batman, he's beating Azrael, or Man-Bat, or one of the 90's Batman anti-anti-hero parodies.

That doesn't address my point. :smalltongue:

Another way to prevent escapes would be to put a forbiddance (neutral), and then the attraction spell inside Arkham attached to like, the Cafeteria or some such. Making it so people don't WANT to leave, and wouldn't be capable of it if they did somehow resist the magic.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-16, 01:16 PM

That doesn't address my point. :smalltongue:

Another way to prevent escapes would be to put a forbiddance (neutral), and then the attraction spell inside Arkham attached to like, the Cafeteria or some such. Making it so people don't WANT to leave, and wouldn't be capable of it if they did somehow resist the magic.

See, now you're getting into actual ways the lich can win this, instead of just claiming he'll mindrape/dominate/charm the entire city into obeying his commands. That's better.

Reverent-One

2011-05-16, 01:30 PM

That doesn't address my point. :smalltongue:

Another way to prevent escapes would be to put a forbiddance (neutral), and then the attraction spell inside Arkham attached to like, the Cafeteria or some such. Making it so people don't WANT to leave, and wouldn't be capable of it if they did somehow resist the magic.

How does a forbiddance spell keep people from leaving? It blocks planar travel, but otherwise doesn't keep those inside of it there.

Johel

2011-05-16, 02:39 PM

How does a forbiddance spell keep people from leaving? It blocks planar travel, but otherwise doesn't keep those inside of it there.

It kills them if they try to step a foot in the area.
Forbiddance is cast around Arkham, not in Arkham.

Reverent-One

2011-05-16, 02:42 PM

It kills them if they try to step a foot in the area.
Forbiddance is cast around Arkham, not in Arkham.

Ahh, I see. In which case there's a large area surrounding Arkham that can potentially kill anyone walking into it. I don't think that would go over well.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-16, 06:48 PM

Technically, Forbiddance does damage, but a lot of it.

Could we surround Arkham with Anti-Life Shells? If the Lich has Craft Wondrous Item, he can craft Antilife Shell in item form - key them to re-activate in response to a verbal command word (not activate/deactivate, the spell has to run its course and expire to go away) and one guard patrolling the exterior could keep the field going constantly.

GirlWithASword

2011-05-16, 07:01 PM

Correction, such abilities were never shown in the Lantern Corps V.S. Sinestro Corps wars, and the Green Lantern Ring can also never kill normally. This was a major plot point in said arc which included the Return of ION.

The only ring that CAN make an army of energy constructs is the Orange Lantern ring which has that as it's explicit ability to differenate itself from the other rings.

Sorry to burst your bubble but a yellow lantern ring could create an army of constructs as well. as shown with Karu-sil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karu-Sil
So I would have to say this batman
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-N4Rt8zfHz28/TbDTy0oV-qI/AAAAAAAAAQE/5ygEsihyJDQ/s1600/SinestroCorpsBatman.jpg

Fan

2011-05-16, 10:18 PM

Except that ring is also evil. And since I can't use evil things, you can't.

The Glyphstone

2011-05-16, 10:49 PM

No, you can't do evil things. If the Yellow Rings are evil in their own right (powered by Sinestro, right? They very well might be), or inevitably warp the morality of their wearer, then such would be off-limits to Batman. If the rings have no inherent morality of their own, Bats can have one as long as he doesn't do anything evil with it, regardless of motives or outcome.

Fan

2011-05-16, 11:44 PM