Balance of a Polymorph metamagic feat?

[Kantolin]

I was contemplating a +0 metamagic feat that made it such that, instead of killing someone with a damage-dealing spell (Such as fireball), you instead leave them at 1HP, but polymorph them a'la baleful polymorph.

Is this a fair feat?

The original version was intended to be utilized by a psion, and still required you to expend your psionic focus. It was not used, but I believe that's a little too underpowered, as it means you're not using Empower or anything actually focal to blasting.

I am aware that you can do nonsense with metamagic reducers and +0 level metamagic feats; assume that's not being used in this situation.

Also assume a ridiculously low level of optimization - people that want to use an empowered fireball will be using a metamagic rod or a 5th level spell slot with spell focus, not tricking out a hundred damaging orb of fire or sommat.

A) Is the arcanist with this feat fair?
B) Is the psionicist with this feat fair?
C) Is the psionicist with this feat, where it doesn't cost you your focus, fair?

[ericgrau]

The ability to reliably capture and question all monsters? At no penalty to success? That may not help in a fight at all but in any campaign with a plot that's solid gold, and much better than all alternatives. I'd either make it a +1 feat or a +0 feat but give the foe a +4 to his save on the original spell. Or some such.

Expending your focus also seems fair for a +0 feat at first until you realize that you simply wait for the fight to almost be over, polymorph fireball someone, and boom fight over, easy capture, doesn't matter at all that you lost your focus.

[Kantolin]

...interestingly, in analyzing my potential rebuttal, I discovered both that I'd been using the nonlethal substitution feat wrong (Somehow we overlooked the 'pick an energy type' function and were just allowing it to work on any spell), and also missed that it was reprinted in the complete arcane as being a +1 adjustment feat (Whereas in the BoED it was +0).

I'm surprised to hear that response, though. Dead is a more annoying to solve status than polymorph'd, so I figured it'd just be the same. Our group generally sees the nonlethal substitution feat as a meh feat, and that one stacks with the other party members doing damage to it. This requires the fireball in specific to kill the guy, which is moderately harder to finaggle when everyone's doing damage, and seems to have a similar effect as 'The fighter with his backup truncheon whapped the bad guy once'.

Is it really that potent?

And it being a +0 but-takes-psionic-focus feat makes it difficult to use it along wtih, say, empower or maximize or sommat, which hurts. At least, in my head.

[Rei_Jin]

In regards to "capturing the bad guy alive" being an issue with a campaign that has a plot... depends on what you want to capture him for. If it's just for interrogation, the feat Spirit Sense allows you to interrogate them after they're dead, you just need to use social skills. If it's for ransom? Why are you fireballing someone you want to kidnap? Just cast Hold Person and tie him up!

I'd see no issue with something like this being a special feature of a Transmuter based build, but the flavour is off for a standard arcanist. Plus, it's not like they need more options, they already rule the roost.


EDIT: I'd actually make it a reserve feat for a Specialist Transmuter, who would have to have a Transmutation effect of 5th level or higher memorised... usable as an immediate action when a spell they cast would otherwise kill an enemy.

[ericgrau]

Is it really that potent?
For winning fights? It's useless. For capture and interrogation, it's one of the most effective methods around. It may depend on the campaign / DM.

Specifically with fireball you hit a whole mess of baddies and if even one of them drops you have someone to question.

I'd keep it at +0 but with some kind of penalty to save DC or damage or something, and give the caster the option to keep his spells lethal too without any penalty. Similar to existing options.

[Endarire]

Remember, you must still spend a feat (a valuable resource) and the foe must fail a Fort save which is often their highest, and an antimagic field may break this.

Sounds like +0 to me.

[ericgrau]

If it allows a fort save that's fine too for +0. As long as there's some kind of cost involved. I wasn't sure that it allowed another save.

[Runestar]

How would you word the feat?

Would this allow a spell to get around anti-death effects such as regeneration? For instance, say a party is normally unable to get around a tarrasque's regeneration. Would this allow a wizard to polymorph it into a rabbit instead of spending the 5000xp casting a wish spell? I realise success is unlikely given its high fort save, but this is just a hypothetical situation.

[HalfDragonCube]

How would you word the feat?

Would this allow a spell to get around anti-death effects such as regeneration? For instance, say a party is normally unable to get around a tarrasque's regeneration. Would this allow a wizard to polymorph it into a rabbit instead of spending the 5000xp casting a wish spell? I realise success is unlikely given its high fort save, but this is just a hypothetical situation.

Good point. Caster level checks can be pumped. Turning a colossal size beast into a bunny is a game-breaker.

Bonus points if you keep it in a bag of holding and then cast Break Enchantment in when you want some fun.

[sreservoir]

Good point. Caster level checks can be pumped. Turning a colossal size beast into a bunny is a game-breaker.

Bonus points if you keep it in a bag of holding and then cast Break Enchantment in when you want some fun.

?? what caster level checks?

[HalfDragonCube]

?? what caster level checks?

For the spell resistance. The afore-mentioned fort saves are also an issue.

[Kantolin]

So the general feel seems to be that it edges on the 'too powerful'. Pity, and a bit astonishing to me, but alrighty then - I suppose you guys are seeing something I'm not.

At +1, I believe it's nigh-useless compared to the subdual spell feat (Which I also question being +1), but I suppose it'd have to be +1 or grant them a +4 on their saves to be acceptable.

Thanks for the responses, though. ^_^

(Edit: As a note, the intent was for the polymorphing effect to not have a save - basiaclly, instead of damage -> Dead status, it's damage -> polymorph status)

[candycorn]

If it were restricted to single-target spells only, and allowed a fort save every round to end the effect, I'd say it's balanced as +0 metamagic.

That essentially turns a damage spell into a Hold monster, provided it would kill an enemy. Strong, but not horribly so.

[Kantolin]

If it were restricted to single-target spells only, and allowed a fort save every round to end the effect, I'd say it's balanced as +0 metamagic.

That essentially turns a damage spell into a Hold monster, provided it would kill an enemy. Strong, but not horribly so.

That sounds particularly useless. :smallconfused: That makes it neither useful for killing people nor capturing them, and in fact makes you mildly annoy a single target for a short time instead of killing them. Why would anyone ever use that?

You'd think, once the target has been fireball'd to death, what happened after that point would be relatively moot...

Edit: Ah, I missed a question. No, this wouldn't let you bypass other immunities - if your effect wouldn't kill the target (Such as if you cone of cold'd a troll), then this feat wouldn't kick in.

I also hadn't planned for an extra save - you have to kill your target for it to activate, after all. It wouldn't work on creatures immune to polymorphing, though.

So I indeed suppose that the only real use of it is in capturing people alive. This requires you to be the person to kill the target specifically - you can't, say, hit it for subdual damage at some point and then have yourself and the rest of the party hit it with normal damage until it falls unconscious.

It then means dispel magic (Which is far more likely to be carried around by various people than, say, Revivify and 1000gp) can fix a person you otherwise would've killed. As can anything that happens to resist polymorph (like a shapeshifter), but those are far more rare. And if you're psionic, you cannot instead (say) empower or maximize or twin or something to the power due to expending your focus.

That seems like a pretty useless +1 metamagic, but hey. I'm cool with a nerfed level +0 (They get a bonus on their reflex save vs the fireball), and... I admittedly hadn't thought of using it with things like scorching ray, so I'm okay with it either not working if the original spell had no save or giving them a +4 to their AC against it or something.

But mrr, a lot of people seem to think it's too good at +0. I'm in games where we need to capture people with occasional frequency, and we just usually have the [someone] take a -4 and nonlethal the bad guy a couple times mixed with normal damage so they go unconscious. Or use speak with dead, or just cut past the damage race and baleful in the first place.