OOTS #791 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Qaera]

Thog is wonderful. Elegance in simplicity, indeed.

[Ganurath]

That ax looks a little big to be Occam's Razor...

[Swordguy]

*snerk*

Nice title.

[Mr_Saturn]

I find it amazing that Roy's head didn't get split in two. Excellent comic mechanics. :smallbiggrin:

[BillyBobJoe]

Nice comic, love the title.

[Gift Jeraff]

Oh no! Thog is showing battle damage! :smalleek:

Don't worry, Thog, you can do it!

[Elder Tsofu]

Thog seems smarter somehow, smarter than usual that is. :smallconfused:

[Mike_the_Mystic]

And that's why I love Thog: funny, yet so true. :D

[Calenestel]

That ax looks a little big to be Occam's Razor...

Occam's Axe. It's the same principle while being more brutal about it (and thus doing 1d12 in base damage instead of a paltry 1d4)

[Psyren]

Roy doesn't need an entire prestige class: just a feat, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise) which Thog is too dumb to have taken.

And I find it very difficult to believe that Roy would be killed again so soon, so (hopefully) he's safe for the moment.

[Girl Wonder]

I have every faith that Roy shall pull through, somehow! And I DO hope he is not somehow rescued by someone else ... a one-on-one victory over an evenly-matched opponent is just what he needs, after getting upstaged by his more comical teammates at (almost) every turn and then losing (albeit gallantly) to Xykon.

As for Thog? I doubt he'll meet his end here, but I really, really, really truly want him to lose!

Black and white and red all over indeed. Funny? Yes. But also a vicious brute who needs some comeuppance.

[Xacal]

Heh, so far advantage Thog, I suppose. This will be interesting to see play out...

[Anarion]

Love the title.

I'm guessing the axe and sword barely doing damage is to represent the fact that both Roy and Thog have really high con scores and a ton of HP. Plus those weapons are non-magical and probably not well-maintained, considering all those blood stains on Thog's axe. Since, even with power attacks, it would take a fair number of rounds for them to kill each other in an actual D&D game, Rich is probably representing that by having the weapons only do superficial damage.

[Forikroder]

hhahahahaha silly Zebrafolk, never know when to shut up

[Crazyterran]

You can say Roy will have a splitting headache after that hit.

[Agi Hammerthief]

poor Zebrafolk :smalleek:

[KingFlameHawk]

This is starting to look bad for Roy. He is letting Thog get to him. He dropped his guard and got hit after Thogs unstoppable comment and after he told Roy he was smarter and he couldn't let the insult go. On the plus side with less brain cells he may not care as much in the future so it my not be as bad as I first thought.

[faustin]

After this, you must recognise Thog has improved his wisdom.
Twelve Gods´ sake..... HE EVEN OUTSMARTED ROY :smalleek::smalleek:

[Gaius]

Oosh. :smalleek: Glad Roy seemed to take that last blow to the head fairly well, swirly-thing notwithstanding.

Better than the poor zebrafolk, at least.

[ThirdEmperor]

Thog: Zen Warrior.

That's all I have to say, the comic speaks for itself. Thog knows inner peace always, reflecting upon the humor of the universe even as his life is threatened. He sees the truth in all things, countering long, drawn out arguments with a few simple, yet wise, words. He knows that plans do not have to be complicated to be works of sheer genius, and above all, he can find the joy in life's simple pleasures, be it eating ice cream or crushing his enemies skull with a well placed attack.

[Echon]

Thog is smart in his own way. :)

It looks like that attack should have cleaved Roy's head.

[Elan's Modron]

I think I'm Thog-level smart.
'cause I don't get the title.

'Splainy, please.

[DonDuckie]

Hah, just got the title. Also, very elegant.

[rewinn]

Roy doesn't need an entire prestige class: just a feat, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise) which Thog is too dumb to have taken.

And I find it very difficult to believe that Roy would be killed again so soon, so (hopefully) he's safe for the moment.
IIRC Roy has the Great Cleavage feat ...

... which isn't helpful in single combat against Thog. Perhaps Roy is defeated but not killed outright by Thog; Roy puts up a good enough fight that T ponders whether to keep him alive to please the crowd another day. Thumbs up or thumbs down?

How inconvenient it is that T doesn't know Roy is Elan's best friend, but that's a consequence of being sneaky!

[Lycan 01]

I don't get the title. :smallconfused:

[silvadel]

That is FEWER Roy, and probably.

A Prestige Class that lets Roy add INT to his attack rolls.... Interesting idea.

As for the title -- Angry maybe, Even certainly, but never MAD. ;)

[Thant]

Did Thog just used Leap Attack in that next-to-last panel? Pure awesome :smallbiggrin:

[Elan's Modron]

I don't get the title. :smallconfused:

You and me both, Lycan.
I think it must be a spin on the adage "Don't get mad, get even"- but...uh?
Are they even now (intellect-wise) 'cause Thog knocked out some o' Roy's brain cells?
But 'MAD' is called out in all caps- so it seems like I'm still missing something...

thog :thog: no like heavy :frown: thinking

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I think I'm Thog-level smart.
'cause I don't get the title.

'Splainy, please.

MAD is Multiple Ability Dependency. It's a balance problem Monks and Paladins have, where they depend on three or more ability scores to be effective (and most PCs usually only have one or two high ability scores.) For most characters, some of their otherwise cool class features are useless because they can't be good at all of them.

Thog is referring to methods of making Intelligence useful for a melee Power Attacker, which would lead to MAD (being Strength-, Constitution-, and Intelligence-dependent.)

[iyaerP]

Hmmmmm.


I worry for roy.

Thog seems to have the upper hand for the moment, he still hasn't raged yet, and Roy DID lose that level from being killed.

[Elan's Modron]

MAD is Multiple Ability Dependency...

Oh, thanks, Thomar! I was feeling so stupid there.
But if it's just the matter of a gaming term/acronym I haven't run across...then :thog: thog no feel so bad :smallsmile:!

[Ridureyu]

Oh, man.


That poor zebrafolk.

[Xacal]

Heh, and I was looking for Mutually Assured Destruction puns in the comic title, or a Cold War reference of some type...:smallyuk:
Ah well, maybe next time...:smallamused:

[ShippoWildheart]

Yowza! That was either a Leap Attack or one heck of a Power Attack. :smalleek:

[Elan's Modron]

Heh, and I was looking for Mutually Assured Destruction puns in the comic title, or a Cold War reference of some type...:smallyuk:
Ah well, maybe next time...:smallamused:


~And I was actually trying to figure out if there were some buried reference to MAD magazine! :smallredface:

[Calenestel]

Heh, and I was looking for Mutually Assured Destruction puns in the comic title, or a Cold War reference of some type...:smallyuk:
Ah well, maybe next time...:smallamused:

You and me both. Maybe it's foreshadowing? :smallamused:

[Antacid]

Do make LEMONADE

[Anarion]

So, is Roy right that he'll eventually think of something? It's weird because he makes that comment and then Thog smacks him pretty hard but...maybe foreshadowing?

[Squeejee]

Awesome update! I fear that Thog is getting a lot of good lines in now because he won't be around much longer.

My alternate theory: Belkar was supposed to fight Thog and lose, but now Roy had spared him that fate. I highly doubt that Roy will die here again, unless it's the setup for an awesome revolving door joke...

[Gift Jeraff]

I think Roy's gonna need Belkar's help to get out of this one.What do you think this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html) and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0777.html) were foreshadowing? :smallwink:

[Onyavar]

Oh good Lord, how will we ever manage to translate this strip, now? The MAD pun, the broken drain, the thug/Thog, and the terrible newspaper pun. (funny, I only recently read the newspaper joke in an english-pun-compilation, and it IS funny. For the first time.)

About the MAD: Yeah, becoming dependent on INT wouldn't be bad for Roy, would it? I mean, he already rolled all his stats, so why should he not put his high intelligence to some combat use?
BUT, after all, he already has a feat that he will need to take next level-up, and that's this anti-spellcaster feat. I guess that leaves no room for an exotic prestige class.

[Agi Hammerthief]

the terrible newspaper pun.

can somebody please post the related joke?

[tcrudisi]

can somebody please post the related joke?

Are you sure? You will feel really silly.

Panel 3. Thog: "What's black and white and red all over?"
Roy: "A newspaper."
Thog: "A zebrafolk who talks back!"

[Vemynal]

To quote Nale "Sometimes he reminds me why I hang out with him" xD

I <3 this comic so hard right now ^_^

But yeah, does Tog seem more intelligent or wise then usual?
He also seems particularly more evil then previously as well

[Calenestel]

But yeah, does Tog seem more intelligent or wise then usual?

Rule of Funny and/or Cool? :smallamused:


He also seems particularly more evil then previously as well

Less Rule of Funny than usual? :smallbiggrin:

[Kislath]

Thog has one really nice dexterity score, eh? Roy can't hit him for squat, and that leap attack! Maybe he's a fighter only because he's too dumb to be a rogue?

[dogmac]

My prediction


Roy will use both his noggin and his strength and be just about to beat Thog when Nale rescues him


Actually, I can't see any other logical way it will play out.

[Atcote]

I've often kinda wondered about this; Roy's got some good points in INT, but it's never been a drawback for him before. Thog has the right of it though; without an appropriate feat or prestige class, being smart doesn't help that much in a straight weapon to weapon fight.

I have a feeling the fight is Thog's... How it will all turn out, however, well, who knows?

[Neopolis]

Well, Thog sure is using that strength bonus well. If that's a leap attack, he's using it three times, in fact...

[Kareasint]

Roy may be trying to think too much here. The Arena is definitely in Thog's favor due to its lack of magical equipment. A straight Strength fighter build will have some advantage here.

What a higher Int does give a fighter is more skill points. It will depend on how Roy has them set up as to how useful they would be here. Bluff would normally be a good skill to use but remember that Thog gets to add his base attack bonus to the Sense Motive check.

This may come down to what feats Roy and Thog have.

Makes you wonder why the Zebra was in jail. It does seem out of place for desert terrain. Maybe it was there in place of the Dire Camels that Belkar fought once.

[RedCloakLives!]

Brilliant!

Thog's intellect (see previous) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196370) once again shines through!

The wordplay ... the sense of humor ... the composure ... the logical proof worthy of Samuel Johnson!

We have an interesting role reversal. Roy is the one who should be the barbarian, since that is how he is behaving -- getting totally PO'd, and not using his head. If only Roy could rage! Whereas Thog maintains his poise, spouts witticisms as he fights, and applies reason -- and applies it very quickly, too. All signs point to a higher intelligence than Roy's.

Is Roy overmatched? Can he start to think? Will he get lucky? Will he be rescued? Not only is the strip wonderful characterization, it builds the suspense, the drama, also!

[Calenestel]

Brilliant!

Thog's intellect (see previous) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196370) once again shines through!

The wordplay ... the sense of humor ... the composure ... the logical proof worthy of Samuel Johnson!

We have an interesting role reversal. Roy is the one who should be the barbarian, since that is how he is behaving -- getting totally PO'd, and not using his head. If only Roy could rage! Whereas Thog maintains his poise, spouts witticisms as he fights, and applies reason -- and applies it very quickly, too. All signs point to a higher intelligence than Roy's.

Is Roy overmatched? Can he start to think? Will he get lucky? Will he be rescued? Not only is the strip wonderful characterization, it builds the suspense, the drama, also!

Oooor it could just all be Rule of Funny. You know... just tossing it out there. :smallamused:

[Juggling Goth]

Oh man, that panel with the zebrafolk was really upsetting!

And thanks to the person who explained MAD. I was wondering what this had to do with Mutually Assured Destruction...

[M.A.D]

I don't get it

[Calenestel]

Hey! Who brought M.A.D?! The Giant told you not to get him! :smalltongue:
(Edit: This post not to be taken seriously. :smallbiggrin:)

[Zxo]

Roy will either get help, or their fight will be interrupted by... something. Thog has a much better chance of winning than Roy without all their magical stuff and Roy dying again would be anticlimactic.
So I think this fight exists in the story for the sole purpose of perfoming this awesome dialogue :D

[DeltaEmil]

Roy doesn't need an entire prestige class: just a feat, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise) which Thog is too dumb to have taken.They seem to be fighting without magic armor. By that point, +5 dodge bonus to AC rather does not look that much worth anymore. Or it would make the fight become the same anyway. If Thog power attacks, he'll miss perhaps more often, but so will Roy, because his attacks are also reduced, and to deal more damage than Thog, he'll have to use Power Attack too, making his attacks hit even less if combining both Combat Expertise and Power Attack.

For now, Roy's really in a serious disadvatage.

We do however not know yet if Thog is really raging for now. He'll probably not turn green again and get purple pants if he rages...

[kladams707]

I don't get it

Does it make you SAD?

[Klear]

can somebody please post the related joke?

Had to look it up as well. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_riddle) I guess its easier to get when you hear it.

BTW, what's that with unstopperable? I don't get that one at all...

[BlackMageJ]

Thog's plan is sheer elegance in its simplicity! I'm just gonna pretend that's a deliberate Middleman reference. I know the odds are that the Giant has never seen The Middleman, but I don't care.

[moonbiter]

BTW, what's that with unstopperable? I don't get that one at all...

To stopper something is "to close, secure, or fit with a stopper." And a stopper is "a plug, cork, bung, or other piece for closing a bottle, tube, drain, or the like."

[MReav]

Roy needs to start using Expertise to give him a higher defense. It's one of the few advantages of having a decent intelligence when you're a fighter.

Roy, you did take Expertise, right?

:roy: Uh...

[H Birchgrove]

Thanks guys for explaining the MAD reference.

[Gwynfrid]

Roy is in serious danger here. If Thog rolls a critical, the greataxe will do crazy high damage: (1d12+Str bonus)x3.

As pointed out already, Combat Expertise would only delay the end of the fight. A better solution would be Improved Sunder (or even, eat an attack of opportunity and just sunder, but he chances to succeed are not nearly as good then). No more axe, no more problem.

But I suspect the end of the fight will be much more surprising and interesting than someone just pulling a feat out of his hat.

[Poppy Appletree]

Is it me, or are zebrafolk original to OotS? A Google search just brings me back here.

[Skaven]

Poor Zebrafolk. :(

I have no worries about Roy. He's already died so he won't again.


Is it me, or are zebrafolk original to OotS? A Google search just brings me back here.

D&D 3rd has rules to allow you to make humanoid types of any animal. I forget the book its in. Its famous for its inherent cheese that allows for ridiculous yet overpowered things like humanoid whales with insane dragon-matching strength.

I think combat expertise would work wonders for Roy here.

They're both in no armour and are full combat classes. So combat expertise will not have any appreciable penalty in its use, and will be very effective vs Thog's power attack. Granted, Roy can power attack too for the same results.

[Klear]

You know, the way everybody is saying that Roy died recently and is thus safe makes me a little worried about him...

[wumpus]

Roy needs to start using Expertise to give him a higher defense. It's one of the few advantages of having a decent intelligence when you're a fighter.

Roy, you did take Expertise, right?

:roy: Uh...

How would it help? He's wearing substandard medium armor, and being attacked by a (presumably raging) barbarian. He might be able to limit just how deep Thog can use power attack, but that is it.

Roy is known to have: power attack, cleave, greater cleave, weapon focus, weapon specialization, Horace Greenhilt's special attack, the geekery thread lists endurance (I don't remember seeing that one). I would think he ought to have a few more, but don't count on him using that int bonus when picking it.

[isamaru]

Exactly. We could have a new "Roy dying" running gag.

[Calenestel]

You know, the way everybody is saying that Roy died recently and is thus safe makes me a little worried about him...

I wouldn't be too surprised about it. But I dont' THINK so. The Giant is VERY good at pulling fast one on us, his unsuspecting victims fans...
BUT it always makes the story more awesome. Going by that the logical conclusion would be that Roy will not die. Unless I'm the only one here that feels that it would be "too soon". Of course, I can hardly be sure with this kind of shaky reasoning but there you have it.

Also Tarquin has pretty high hopes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html) for Roy and I actually kinda believes in his eye for such matters. :smallwink:

[Agi Hammerthief]

Are you sure? You will feel really silly.

Panel 3. Thog: "What's black and white and red all over?"
Roy: "A newspaper."
Thog: "A zebrafolk who talks back!"
you're right: I can feel your being really silly here :smalltongue:



Had to look it up as well. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_riddle) I guess its easier to get when you hear it.
thanks, it is better when you hear it
or when your english is so awful that you don't know the difference

[TheArsenal]

Its whats called Childs wisdom. Thinking about simplicity. Thog wasn't thinking about the ramifications and the Ideas behind high inteligence. He says "So.....So what? You get no bonuses...I Do....So why are you bragging?".

[The Pilgrim]

Go Thog!!!! :smallbiggrin:

[MReav]

How would it help? He's wearing substandard medium armor, and being attacked by a (presumably raging) barbarian. He might be able to limit just how deep Thog can use power attack, but that is it.

Because Expertise would be a way to actually give Roy some mechanical advantage in having not dumped intelligence. Otherwise, thog is completely right in that Roy's brains are completely useless in this fight.

Also remember, they are fighting with substandard weapons. They're not likely to give them their +3 to +5 weapons of awesome. Hell, the weapons are probably not even masterwork.

[Klear]

Unless I'm the only one here that feels that it would be "too soon".

I'm worried about everybody feeling that it is too soon, which is probably the case. But I'm not worried that much. I basically didn't want my only post on these boards to be one explaining a joke that is known to everybody but us, who don't have English as primary language.

I've discovered (and read the whole) OOTS just a month ago or so. Therefore having time to stop and theorize about what the Giant might do next is kinda new to me.

[ghoul-n]

Roy could bluff Thog into «Yes, I have» -> Intimidation check success -> Thog surrenders -.-

[Blaznak]

Got to love Thog. :)

[Swordpriest]

Hm, so we're back to the fighters, eh? Well, it looks like Nale did just basically dump Thog here -- so whatever is afoot, Thog is just enjoying himself with a bit of random slaughter.

[Calenestel]

I've discovered (and read the whole) OOTS just a month ago or so. Therefore having time to stop and theorize about what the Giant might do next is kinda new to me.

Gratz for finding an excellent comic. And don't worry. Theorizing about the Giant's twisted ideas will become second nature soon enough. You won't have right other than by mere chance, but neither is anyone else. :smallbiggrin:

[RecklessFable]

I can't wait to hear Thug's soliloquy just before he takes his last breath.

[TerrickTerran]

Preach on, Thog. Roy, you talk too much.

[Prime32]

Bet Roy is wishing he was a warblade right now.

[Gray Mage]

Because Expertise would be a way to actually give Roy some mechanical advantage in having not dumped intelligence. Otherwise, thog is completely right in that Roy's brains are completely useless in this fight.

Also remember, they are fighting with substandard weapons. They're not likely to give them their +3 to +5 weapons of awesome. Hell, the weapons are probably not even masterwork.

It's pretty much irrelevant that the weapons aren't masterwork, just with BAB and 1.5X their str mods both Roy and Thog shouldn't be having too much trouble hitting the opponent's AC (that is, unless they're using too much in PA). Combat Expetise would just make Roy be worse at attacking and damaging Thog.

This isn't looking good for Roy, it doesn't seem like Thog's even raging right now.

[King of Nowhere]

Oots keep getting greater and greater, but also slower and slower.
It's like the awesomeness of the story is directly proprotional to the time between updates.
I should put myself in a choma and advise the medics to wake me up when the current stroyarc is over.

[Twilight Jack]

Bet Roy is wishing he was a warblade right now.

Don't we all?

[xyzchyx]

It can't just be me who's noticed the highly ironic notion of a character with allegedly below-average intelligence utilizing the terms 'elegant' and 'simplicity' in a correct fashion with regards to his combat approach.

It seems to me that there's a specific name for this sort of comedic situation, where a 'dumb' character spouts verbage that should be, by all rights, beyond their own comprehension, but I can't think of what it is.

[Calenestel]

It seems to me that there's a specific name for this sort of comedic situation, where a 'dumb' character spouts verbage that should be, by all rights, beyond their own comprehension, but I can't think of what it is.

Too Dumb to Fool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooDumbToFool) combined with Dumbass Has a Point (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DumbassHasAPoint), maybe?
Edit: More the latter. But Too Dumb features in the strip anyway. :smallbiggrin:

There's also some Ax Crazy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AxCrazy) too, but not so much in this strip. :smalltongue:

[t209]

I hope Celia came in lightning blazing.

[Iruka]

The zebrafolk reminds me of a song by the german band Samsas Traum: "Ich wünsch mir das das Zebra schweigt" ("I wish the zebra would hold it's tongue")
In the lyrics the animals in the forest decide to execute the zebra because it wouldn't shut up :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

Thog didn't get MAD, he got even... numbers for his stats. Thog use point buy.

Seriously it always bothered me that Roy doesn't even have combat expertise or leadership or maybe even stunning fist (though the will save boost isn't bad either). And of all the weapons he uses the least tactical biggest "I'm a fighter, I hit things" one.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Roy will use both his noggin and his strength and be just about to beat Thog when Nale rescues him



Yes, of course, Roy will Headbutt Thog to death. :smallannoyed: :smalltongue:

[HandofShadows]

Roy, you have a brain in that hard head of yours, start using it.

[sims796]

I hope this story closes up soon, I really want to see how this all ties together.

[elliott20]

Go on Roy, take a level of warblade, you know you want to.

[faustin]

I hope Celia came in lightning blazing.

For what? To try to put a restrain order against Thog? She is a annoying pacifist lawyer in a D&D world.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Bolt-on-headlamps]

I think Thog uses "Upstage" as a feat, and never misses an opportunity to use it.

[Kingscourt]

Strip title made me laugh, great comic Giant!


I really do think Roy needs this victory on his own though, he hasn't gotten any real awesome combat victories ever since he went up against Xykon...

[Klear]

Seriously it always bothered me that Roy doesn't even have combat expertise or leadership or maybe even stunning fist (though the will save boost isn't bad either). And of all the weapons he uses the least tactical biggest "I'm a fighter, I hit things" one.

Maybe it's to spite his father. Roy doesn't want to use intelligence in his build to be as far from a mage as possible.

[ericgrau]

Come to think of it the easiest way to win a 1v1 melee fight is with combat expertise, even without improved trip and so on. Pick up a shield and the fight basically goes "You rarely hit me, I can still hit you sometimes. Gg." Doesn't work as well w/o magic items though, but it still helps.

[mirageknuckler]

Am I the only one who is wondering what happened to Roy's jump from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html? It seemed like he was gearing up for a big attack.

[Burner28]

I hope Celia came in lightning blazing.

Why would you?

[Hiro Protagonest]

For what? To try to put a restrain order against Thog? She is an annoying pacifist lawyer in a D&D world.

Fixed that for ya.

[Lurkmoar]

I was hoping that Roy would have already had this match in hand. I'm wondering when the detour in the Empire of Blood is over, want to get back to the main story.

[JonestheSpy]

Hey, Thog may be stronger, but Roy's got Weapon Specialization (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html)!

[jidasfire]

Roy HAS to win this fight. Losing against Thog effectively refutes his entire philosophy and MO, that being the idea that a clever warrior who uses strategy and tactics in addition to strength is superior to one who relies only on smashing prowess (funny enough, that's also a major difference of philosophy between Roy and Xykon, but that's a topic for another day). However, Roy is not going to beat Thog in a straight-up match. Thog is stronger, tougher, and has cheesier abilities. If Roy goes toe-to-toe against Thog, as he is now, he will absolutely lose this fight.

It's kind of like Batman vs. the Mutant Leader in the Dark Knight Returns. Sure, Batman was a seasoned warrior and very smart, but he was old, and the Mutant Leader was young, strong, tough, fast, and ferocious. In their first battle, Batman tried fighting like a younger man, and he was trounced, surviving only through a last-minute rescue. In their second match, Batman realized that he had to fight very differently to win. He used terrain, psychology, and every dirty trick in the book, effectively rendering the Mutant Leader's superior physical abilities useless.

And that, my friends, is what Roy needs to do here. I don't know enough about the 3.5 rules to say if there are feats or whatever to help in that regard, but frankly, I think Roy needs to look away from the rules and towards treating this like a war. He needs to put aside his pride, fight slowly and methodically, and actually USE his brain instead of merely the stat bonuses it offers. Then and only then does he beat Thog.

[Alex Warlorn]

More intelligence equals more skill points. Clever use of skill points can be applied to any situation!

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

More intelligence equals more skill points. Clever use of skill points can be applied to any situation!

Yes, but a toe-to-toe fight with a half-orc barbarian requires you to be EXTREMELY clever. Roy is probably clever enough, but he jumped into this without a plan, and he probably only has a few rounds left. Mechanicswise, the two of them will rarely miss each other because they aren't wearing good armor, which means this fight will be bloody and short.

[Hiro Protagonest]

More intelligence equals more skill points. Clever use of skill points can be applied to any situation!

Yeah, like intimidate, which is against a level check + wisdom bonus, and Thog doesn't gave a wisdom bonus, so it's just a level check. And if Roy maxed out his ranks, then he'll have a +3 over Thog, not including his above-average charisma, which means he has something like +4 or +5 over Thog.

[SteveMB]

Hm, so we're back to the fighters, eh? Well, it looks like Nale did just basically dump Thog here -- so whatever is afoot, Thog is just enjoying himself with a bit of random slaughter.

Apparently, though whether it's actually part of Nale's plan or just Nale not caring enough to rescue him when he got caught remains to be seen.

[St Fan]

Why are you guys so focalised on the protagonists?

Think about the crowd! They've finally got that big, exciting fight they hoped for! The unbeatable champion against the promising challenger. A big day in the long, bloody history of the EoB's arena. Tarquin must be pleased.

[Syklone]

Am I the only one who is wondering what happened to Roy's jump from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html? It seemed like he was gearing up for a big attack.
Here's what I think happened.
Roy was, in fact, gearing up for a big attack, then Thog's insolent laughing stopped and confused him. He then noticed that Haley, Elan, and V had left.

[King of Nowhere]

Roy is smarter, but I don't see how he could put that to use.
He's ion an arena, no way to use terrain to hios favor, or do some fancy tactic. HE's just there with thog. It's the situation where being smart don't help you at all.

Oh, and yes, those will be the best gladiatorial games evewr in the eob: we got to see a guy disemboweled by a cat, a guard forced to eat his bowels, the dinosaur trampling and killing, the daring escape of a lizardfolk and blue dragon thing, and now a figth between two figther types near level 15. What more could they want?

Anyway, I too noticed that thog seems smarter than we remembered him: what if he's sabine shapeshifted? :smallbiggrin:

[Lost In Thyme]

I understood the title to related to:

Don't get MAD, get GLAD.

[Burner28]

Why are you guys so focalised on the protagonists?

Think about the crowd! They've finally got that big, exciting fight they hoped for! The unbeatable champion against the promising challenger. A big day in the long, bloody history of the EoB's arena. Tarquin must be pleased.

Oookay....

[Aron Times]

Roy needs to rebuild into the warblade class, so he can benefit from a high int.

[Aldizog]

I am so hoping that Roy whups Thog by using his brains. NOT by pulling out some feat, or PrC ability, or warblade level, or necessarily a skill check, but by being smarter. I want Roy to take Thog's mechanics-based taunting and shove it down his throat. Int requirements for Improved Disarm and Improved Trip are supposed to reflect that these tactics for clever and tricky characters, but the Int-based mechanics are by no means a limit on what intelligence can accomplish.

This tactic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) didn't require high Int by game mechanics, but it shows intelligence and quick thinking in-world. That kind of thing is why I love Roy and OOTS.

As to Thog's rage, perhaps he used up all his rages while chained up, or while thinking about how much he wanted an ice cream.

[Killer Angel]

Yes, but a toe-to-toe fight with a half-orc barbarian requires you to be EXTREMELY clever. Roy is probably clever enough, but he jumped into this without a plan, and he probably only has a few rounds left.

Roy was overconfident in his own strenght. A situation similar to V. Vs Xykon... well, obviously Thog's not X, but this kind of attitude is dangerous.

[Dvandemon]

can somebody please post the related joke?

What's black, white and read all over? A newspaper

Wakka wakka!

[Essex]

Hey, Thog may be stronger, but Roy's got Weapon Specialization (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html)!

That isn't the only advantage Roy has. As a high level Human Fighter, Roy has between 11 and 13 feats (assuming he is between 10th and 13th level). Assuming he is 12th or 13th level, Thog has 7 (two from his 2-level Fighter dip).

If Roy used most of his feats on standard Fighter fare, he likely has: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Greater Weapon Focus (greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Improved Critical (greatsword) and possibly even Melee Weapon Mastery. Even after all of that, he'd still have two to four feats left open.

Additionally, assuming that Roy dropped a 16 into Intelligence while Thog used it as his dump stat, Roy is getting two more skill points per level than Thog. Thus, Roy does have a few advantages so long as he can find a way to use them in this fight.

[DeltaEmil]

Let's not forget that Roy did lose a level when he was ressurected, while Thog appearently fought many battles to the death (on the other hand, we don't know if any of those battles were giving him xp, but seeing as how Tarquin did try to get him killed, it is probable that they did).

Now, Roy could probably try some things like the ever-popular throwing-sand-into-their-eyes-trick and such, or trying to confuse Thog with complicated riddles (or appealing to his puppy-love), but combat-wise, Roy doesn't look like he's going to have the advantage.

Intimidate won't also help that much except make the other shaken, and that's only a -2 penalty to hit. In fact, it's an absolute waste of action, as the opponen will only be shaken for 1 round, and using a standard action for that means that you deal less damage.

Stuff like Improved Trip, or somehow forcing Thog into having to make Balance or Tumble checks might help, but so far, Roy doesn't show that much of such kinds of acrobatic finesse.

He's a good leader of people and can devise good tactics in battle even with such "obstacles" like Elan or Belkar. But without any team member, it's going to be hard to use such things. And as has been said, the terrain doesn't have any particular features that might help Roy either.

[Seerow]

C'mon Roy, not even knowing your higher int qualifies your for Combat Expertise (and by association the Improve _____ feats)?

I have to agree with Thog, he may have a lower int, but Roy sucks at optimization, he has all these high stats and doesn't even attempt to use them to his advantage.

[Aquillion]

C'mon Roy, not even knowing your higher int qualifies your for Combat Expertise (and by association the Improve _____ feats)?Those feats suck, though. The comic pretended they didn't way back when for the sake of a joke, but they really really do.

[theNater]

This tactic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) didn't require high Int by game mechanics, but it shows intelligence and quick thinking in-world. That kind of thing is why I love Roy and OOTS.
I'm also hoping for something like this. This is Roy fighting at his finest.

I'd like to point out that in that example, it's possible Roy had his plan as soon as he knew he was facing a half-ogre with a spiked chain, and that asking about the rules was just a distraction. Admittedly, my main evidence for that idea is that it's awkward to change your angle of approach with just charges, and an argument could be made that he was just lucky to be approaching from a useful angle initially.

However, if Roy was feigning ignorance then, it's possible he's also feigning it now, and his plan is already in motion. He may just be pretending not to have a plan because he doesn't want Thog to catch on.

[Seerow]

Those feats suck, though. The comic pretended they didn't way back when for the sake of a joke, but they really really do.

Roy is a straight human Fighter somewhere between level 13 and 16, who seems to be playing with nothing but core rules. He has between 13 and 16 feats. We know he has up to Greater Weapon Spec (4 of the feats gone), and Power Attack (one more feat), and Greater Cleave (2 more feats). I don't know offhand if we've seen more out of him, but he's got at least 7 more feats to play with, and not really a ton of good options.

[MoonCat]

This is not good.

Roy's letting Thog get to him, and is getting distracted. He's also got to worry about where the rest are, and Thog is definitely very powerful. Also a lot less likable now. I hope Roy pulls through this.

(When I saw the name my first thought was that it would involve V having a super long rant)

[harkle1876]

Roy is in trouble, it has already been pointed out that Thog has a huge power attack bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html). hopefully Roy can avoid getting hit though.

[Rules Lawyer #1]

"Don't get MAD" is a reference to Soulja Boy's rap song "Don't Get Mad". The chorus repeats "Don't get mad cause the kidz like me."
Recall from #788 that Tarquin states "He's a crowd favorite" and "It's weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still thinks he's lovable."
Also, there are plenty fans of Order of the Stick who are fans of thog! So it's a double reference to fans of thog in addition to being a reference to Multiple Ability Dependency (which is why MAD is all capitals).
Listen to "Don't Get Mad" by Soulja Boy while reading #791 Don't get MAD and it is like thog's theme song as he kicks Roy's butt.
:smallcool:

[Eldritch Knight]

Methinks that feat he learned from his Grandfather is going to be coming into play soon.

[Charmy]

Methinks that feat he learned from his Grandfather is going to be coming into play soon.

Except that it only applies to countering spellcasters, which Thog is not :smallfrown:

And anyone else hoping Thog will rage at some point? That'll just seal the deal for this fight though... :smalltongue:

[Dilvish]

Heh, and I was looking for Mutually Assured Destruction puns in the comic title, or a Cold War reference of some type...:smallyuk:
Ah well, maybe next time...:smallamused:

Me too. Are we showing our age?

[martianmister]

Apparently, no one is caring about Thog's not caring about Nale anymore? He don't know where he is and don't seem associated to him anymore.

[Kish]

There is no indication Thog doesn't care about Nale anymore.

[Stabbey]

I was thinking about what would be the worst possible thing to happen for the current plotline, and here it is:

Nale will try and get revenge, all right... but on Tarquin. How? Elan has left Tarquin's side. If Nale saw what he was wearing, he could disguise himself as Elan (he should have the "Disguise Self" spell too, since Elan has it, right?)

He disguises himself as Elan, and returns to the box. The disguise might not work for long, but it should work for just long enough to sneak attack Tarquin in full view of the crowd. And because Elan never told Tarquin that Nale was probably alive, Tarquin won't see it coming.

Then Nale will vanish in the confusion, leaving Elan to take the blame. Two acts of revenge with one strike.

[ghostaxe]

Yeah, like intimidate, which is against a level check + wisdom bonus, and Thog doesn't gave a wisdom bonus, so it's just a level check. And if Roy maxed out his ranks, then he'll have a +3 over Thog, not including his above-average charisma, which means he has something like +4 or +5 over Thog.

:thog: Thog shaken, not stirred!



If you win, the target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws.


Why would anyone waste a Standard action to Intimidate without stacking fear effects?

[martianmister]

There is no indication Thog doesn't care about Nale anymore.

He don't know where he is and don't seem care about where he is.

[Gray Mage]

He don't know where he is and don't seem care about where he is.

It's not like he was concerned back when he was in prision with Elan. Nale probably said he'd come back and Thog probably made sure that Nale had plenty of bread crumbs this time.

[krossbow]

Roy needs to rebuild into the warblade class, so he can benefit from a high int.



To do so would be only to admit defeat on an even deeper level. If he dies as a fighter, he dies proud; if he were to turn into a warblade he'd only be admitting that everyone up to that point was correct and he was wrong, that his entire life choice (as a fighter) was a mistake. That, even a Clever, wellplayed fighter is STILL useless. That THOG really is correct, and Roy, despite his claims to intelligence, actually is an idiot.

It'd be essentially saying his father was right all those years badgering him, akin to giving in to the darkside in starwars.

However, If he perseveres, even for another day, he gets to tell the world they're wrong about fighters and him, and stand as evidence to that fact.



Thog's simplicity in life is also awesome; he is still an idiot, and not really good outside of a fight, but thats why that all he DOES. Meanwhile, Roy may be an excellent leader, but that helps him jack squat when he's on his own in a fight.

[Gray Mage]

To do so would be only to admit defeat on an even deeper level. If he dies as a fighter, he dies proud; if he were to turn into a warblade he'd only be admitting that everyone up to that point was correct and he was wrong, that his entire life choice (as a fighter) was a mistake. That, even a Clever, wellplayed fighter is STILL useless.

It'd be essentially saying his father was right all those years badgering him, akin to giving in to the darkside in starwars.

It wouldn't. His father was badgering him not because he was going to be a fighter, but because he wasn't going to be a wizard. Being a warblade he'd prove that it's possible for intelligent melee types to be usefull, which is kind of what he wants to do. I think that if ToB material existed in OotSverse (kind of dubious since it's mostly just Core) Roy would have picked warblade in the first place.

[Sengoku]

Damnit, Thog is a genius :smallbiggrin:

"Int bonus to damage rolls? Hit rolls? Saving throw? No nothing?"

Hehehe...

I find Thog always able to steal a good laugh, and I find him to have a pretty good characterization.

No offence to good old Roy, but evil characters are the funniest (Belkar, Thog, Nale, Xykon) for me.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Whatever happened to "Give me the sword. Then run."? All I saw was Roy talking a lot and failing miserably at hitting a dumb barbarian in normal armor. Sheesh Roy, grow a pair.

[King of Nowhere]

I was thinking about what would be the worst possible thing to happen for the current plotline, and here it is:

Nale will try and get revenge, all right... but on Tarquin. How? Elan has left Tarquin's side. If Nale saw what he was wearing, he could disguise himself as Elan (he should have the "Disguise Self" spell too, since Elan has it, right?)

He disguises himself as Elan, and returns to the box. The disguise might not work for long, but it should work for just long enough to sneak attack Tarquin in full view of the crowd. And because Elan never told Tarquin that Nale was probably alive, Tarquin won't see it coming.

Then Nale will vanish in the confusion, leaving Elan to take the blame. Two acts of revenge with one strike.

Not going to work.
Tarquin is high level with a lot of hit points, and he's wearing a good armor and a lot of protective gear, and carries at least a knife with him. There'ss no way Nale could kill him in one round. He couldn't even deal some decent damage. Then nale would be toast.

[Kish]

It wouldn't. His father was badgering him not because he was going to be a fighter, but because he wasn't going to be a wizard. Being a warblade he'd prove that it's possible for intelligent melee types to be usefull, which is kind of what he wants to do. I think that if ToB material existed in OotSverse (kind of dubious since it's mostly just Core) Roy would have picked warblade in the first place.
Horace was proud of Roy for being a single-classed fighter, remember?

[Gray Mage]

Horace was proud of Roy for being a single-classed fighter, remember?

Yes, but would he not be proud if Roy were to be a warblade? And if warblades even existed (we don't have evidence they do, after all) in OotSverse maybe Horace would be one as well? Who knows?

[JonestheSpy]

Yes, but would he not be proud if Roy were to be a warblade?

I can hear it now:

"Well son, you're a spellcaster pretending to be a warrior class, so I guess that's better than nothing."

Edti: my mistake, I was thinking of Eugene, not Horace.

[Dr.Epic]

I think Thog may be right.

[Deliverance]

Roy is smarter, but I don't see how he could put that to use.

Understanding attacks of opportunity* or other concepts that Thog may have problems understanding the rules of. As the comic have clearly shown several times, mechanics apply selectively based on whether they are understood and/or brought to attention. (Most memorable in #34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) - "You know, he'd be a pretty good warrior if he had a head for numbers").

* He's studied AOO in the works of Ben Dover and Taye Kitt, IIRC, wheras Thog probably only has practical experience.

[Querzis]

If Roy used most of his feats on standard Fighter fare, he likely has: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Greater Weapon Focus (greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Improved Critical (greatsword) and possibly even Melee Weapon Mastery. Even after all of that, he'd still have two to four feats left open.

Additionally, assuming that Roy dropped a 16 into Intelligence while Thog used it as his dump stat, Roy is getting two more skill points per level than Thog. Thus, Roy does have a few advantages so long as he can find a way to use them in this fight.

Yeah thing is, feats suck. There are some nice feats in non-core rulebooks but in core? It really doesnt take long till you got all the feats you wanted. And I dont see how skill points could help him that much in that situation.

If we go only with the core rulebooks, fighter sucks. Like, they really do. No amount of feats could beat the barbarian rage, damage reduction, fast movements, uncanny dodge, higher hp and higher damage (and Thog doesnt even seems to be using his rage right now!) Not to mention the fact that fighter rely on their equipment a lot and right now? They are both almost naked. Combat expertise would change litteraly almost nothing with Thog BaB.

I would be really disappointed if Roy could somehow beat him in a straight fight. A fighter is just not supposed to be stronger then a barbarian of the same level (especially not a fighter with good int, wis and cha vs a barbarian who got almost everything in strength...though I think Thog probably got nice charisma). So yeah, I really expect Roy to win by outsmarting Thog here. Not just because it doesnt make sense rulewise to win with his strength but mostly because now Roy has to prove that having high intelligence can help even in straight fight like this.

Come on Roy, I know you might have lost a few of them but get those brain cells working.

[No brains]

Did you see? I'm ALL brawn!

[Lurkmoar]

Oookay....

I'm like 95% that he's being sarcastic. That's what my Sarcasm meter is telling me anyway.

[Ubergeek]

Makes you wonder why the Zebra was in jail.

She was an evil enchantress, clearly.

[Lurkmoar]

She was an evil enchantress, clearly.

Of, you know, the Empire of Blood is full of evil jerks.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Of, you know, the Empire of Blood is full of evil jerks.

Your sarcasm meter failed to detect it.

[H Birchgrove]

I can't find information on this Warblade class. :smallconfused:

[martianmister]

It's not like he was concerned back when he was in prision with Elan. Nale probably said he'd come back and Thog probably made sure that Nale had plenty of bread crumbs this time.

No. Back when he was know where Nale is and talking about their evil plans. In this time he doesn't seem to know or care about him.

[krossbow]

She was an evil enchantress, clearly.


How do you know its a "she"?:smallconfused:

[Lurkmoar]

Your sarcasm meter failed to detect it.

The darn thing is never working right.

So, are we going to cut back to V, Elan and Haley or Roy's continuing fight with Thog? I'm hopping we're lucky and get all three.

[One Step Two]

I hope to see more of the fight between Roy and Thog myself, Roy is taking it easy, or atleast, fighting on Thog's level in a straight up Brawl. As mentioned above Roy has roughly 12-13 feats, as far as we know, we've seen seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131219) in use. If Roy has the feats, a trip attempt or a disarm would put Thog at a severe disadvantage, and display a good use of intellect, both in game terms, and actual fighting. Because at this stage the only real advantage either of them as is the weapons in their hands.

[Morgan Wick]

I didn't get the title until it was explained at the end of the first page (which tells me who got it and who didn't is a good way to tell the D&D-fans from the pure-comic fans), so I was going in expecting Alfred E. Newman to show up somehow...

[One Step Two]

I didn't get the title until it was explained at the end of the first page (which tells me who got it and who didn't is a good way to tell the D&D-fans from the pure-comic fans), so I was going in expecting Alfred E. Newman to show up somehow...

Despite everything, this is a gamer comic, so you know, don't Worry about it. :smallwink:

[Gift Jeraff]

Here's how I see the next few strips playing out:Zz'dtri starts counterspelling everything Vaarsuvius dishes out while Yukyuk withers down V's health, causing V to complain about what kind of fool thought that counterspelling should be a legitimate means of neutralizing a spellcaster.

Mr. Scruffy gets Sir Scraggly's attention, causing Scraggly to chase him into the arena, getting Thog's attention right before Roy bites it. (i.e. Roy is saved in the nick of time.)

This allows for Yukyuk to encounter Belkar (and how fitting that Yukyuk apparently has levels in rogue, since Belkar just made friends with one :smallcool:). Then the guards hurt and/or kill Sir Scraggly, which causes Thog to rage and start killing a bunch of guards, which then allows for yet another daring escape, which reveals (or further hints at) Geoff's true colours.

Tarquin comments on how it is getting trite for an animal to come onto the arena and affect the match, and how one daring escape is fine, but two in a row makes the Empire seem poorly run and, worst of all, unoriginal.

And Yukyuk is killed by Belkar throwing the halfling Courage Rock.

[Kazasu]

It all makes sense now!

Thog is really Sabine*.. or whatever that red rogue anti-Haley's name is. Roy is really Nale. Nale captured Roy and Belkar earlier off screen and now are play-fighting each other to keep up the ruse and have Haley/Elan/V believe Thog is preoccupied shortly before he either sneaks up on V or stops Elan on his way to the friendly Dwarven cleric.

It is brilliant! Nale is subtly pointing fun at Roy's uselessness because he chased him around the room with a greatsword.

(Not sarcastic, but, of course, almost entirely off and just a feat of imagination.)

Edit: It.. might help the case of Thog apparently being more wise/intelligent.

Edit2: *Became less lazy and corrected naming.

[Mr. Snuggles]

Out of nowhere:

:belkar: POW! Pebble attack critical hit!

:thog: thog dizzy!

:roy: Weapon specialization FTW!

[Shoelessgdowar]

Thog's plan is sheer elegance in its simplicity! I'm just gonna pretend that's a deliberate Middleman reference. I know the odds are that the Giant has never seen The Middleman, but I don't care.

That depends, do you think Sabine can shape-shift into a sarcastic schoolmarm, and get stuck? Does Elan have a Tuba that he can play that all who hear its baleful song will drown in the icy waters of the North Atlantic? Since Belkar Bitterleaf is the main character with alliteration initials, does that make him the Wendy Watkins? Technically he did live in an unauthorized sublet with beautiful political activist (Haley). Does Roy know how to do Ventriloquism with a puppet made from pure Carpathian Wood (and would he wear tails to get a Lobster Dinner)? Would is Elan's nickname 'Pillow Lips'? Is The Empress of Blood three feet longer than the Queen Mary and 86 feet longer than Titanic (Only one of these I needed to look up to get right)... and will the Arena Games be interrupted by "ARTCRAWL!!!!!!!!!"

[ricorum]

Very nice. We're getting the fight we wanted to see in spades.

[Gray Mage]

I can't find information on this Warblade class. :smallconfused:

The wizard's site has some information here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2). You can also find it in the Tome of Battle book.

[MoonCat]

Here's how I see the next few strips playing out:Zz'dtri starts counterspelling everything Vaarsuvius dishes out while Yukyuk withers down V's health, causing V to complain about what kind of fool thought that counterspelling should be a legitimate means of neutralizing a spellcaster.

Mr. Scruffy gets Sir Scraggly's attention, causing Scraggly to chase him into the arena, getting Thog's attention right before Roy bites it.

This allows for Yukyuk to encounter Belkar (and how fitting that Yukyuk apparently has levels in rogue, since Belkar just made friends with one :smallcool:). Then the guards hurt and/or kill Sir Scraggly, which causes Thog to rage and start killing a bunch of guards, which then allows for yet another daring escape, which reveals (or further hints at) Geoff's true colours.

Tarquin comments on how it is getting trite for an animal to come onto the arena and affect the match, and how one daring escape is fine, but two in a row makes the Empire seem poorly run and, worst of all, unoriginal.

And Yukyuk is killed by Belkar throwing the halfling Courage Rock.

Nah. Roy's not going to die again.

[sims796]

While I personally don't think it will pan out in that way, I would kill to see someone die from the Halfling Courage Rock.

[MoonCat]

While I personally don't think it will pan out in that way, I would kill to see someone die from the Halfling Courage Rock.

Or at least get distracted by it.

[Armandothesaint]

I hope Thog gets killed.

[Gift Jeraff]

Nah. Roy's not going to die again.
I didn't say he would. (Though I can see how you read it as that.)

[Hiro Protagonest]

I hope Thog gets killed.

:thog: thog sad. why people want thog to die? thog wants to live.



I can't find information on this Warblade class. :smallconfused:

You mean you've never heard of Tome of Battle?! :smalleek:

It's meant to fix melee classes. Think, a 20th level fighter gets 11 bonus feats, whereas a 20th level wizard gets wish, gate, time stop, dominate monster, empowered dominate person, etc. So to balance it, WotC made Tome of Battle, one of their very few smart moves.

[slayerx]

She was an evil enchantress, clearly.

Guards must have caught her while she was doing evil dances

[Sire Brenshar]

Maybe somebody's already mentioned it, but if Thog seems smarter then it can only be because Roy's gotten stupider!

[blazingshadow]

maybe if roy flashes his great cleavage thog might let him win?

[factotum]

No. Back when he was know where Nale is and talking about their evil plans. In this time he doesn't seem to know or care about him.

You seem to be making the implicit assumption that Thog is telling the truth when he says he hasn't seen Nale in a long while...

[Tvtyrant]

You seem to be making the implicit assumption that Thog is telling the truth when he says he hasn't seen Nale in a long while...

God you people are Lawful! :smallwink:

[Tobimaro]

Thog's simplicity vs. Roy's intelligence. Why am I now feeling sorry for Roy? :smalleek:

[marketingman]

It is Thog's world we just happen to live in it for his enjoyment.

[crit_process]

:thog: thog sad. why people want thog to die? thog wants to live.




You mean you've never heard of Tome of Battle?! :smalleek:

It's meant to fix melee classes. Think, a 20th level fighter gets 11 bonus feats, whereas a 20th level wizard gets wish, gate, time stop, dominate monster, empowered dominate person, etc. So to balance it, WotC made Tome of Battle, one of their very few smart moves.

Because D&D is better when everything is balanced all the time, right?

[Calenestel]

Because D&D is better when everything is balanced all the time, right?

Heh. That made me smile. :smallwink:

[Kish]

Because D&D is better when everything is balanced all the time, right?
I'm blinking at the statement that the company that makes the world's most popular RPG makes "very few smart moves," m'self.

[Calenestel]

I'm blinking at the statement that the company that makes the world's most popular RPG makes "very few smart moves," m'self.

Different players have different playing styles and that leads to viewing different things as "smart moves". If you really want balance and/or expect a lot of competition or conflict in the group, then the smart moves might be few. I dunno.
I'm a ROLEplayer and don't care much for the mechanics. I enjoy playing fighters and paladins even with only the core rulebooks available and if I get upstaged in combat by the mages and CoDzillas so what? I still have an awesome character that gives me a lot of fun because my fighter might live for battle, but it's not the only thing I play him for. :smallsmile:

Edit: Please note that I find nothing inherently wrong with playstyles that focuses less on ROLEplaying, or that might even rely purely on ROLLplaying. Hey! If it floats your boat I'm happy for ya! It's just not my cup of tea and that means that I can actually enjoy playing (very) suboptimal characters. :smalltongue:
To each his/her own, you know. :smallwink:

[Kish]

You seem to be making the implicit assumption that Thog is telling the truth when he says he hasn't seen Nale in a long while...
I'm more concerned about the implicit assumption that the two logical options are "thog not let nale out of sight!" and "thog not care about nale."

[Raistlin82]

Because D&D is better when everything is balanced all the time, right?

I don't get the irony.

Ummm... Yes? Of course? :smallconfused:

Balance = happier players, less headaches for DMs, more fun. No? :smalleek:

[Calenestel]

I don't get the irony.

Ummm... Yes? Of course? :smallconfused:

Balance = happier players, less headaches for DMs, more fun. No? :smalleek:

Depends on the focus of the game really. I've played a level 2 Jedi Guardian in a D20 Star Wars game where everyone else was at least level 10 (I was the padawan to a Jedi Consular/Master), an Aristocrat that never took levels in PC classes in a campaign that stretched for... about ten levels I think and a ghoul that never was Embraced in a V:tM chronicle that took TWO YEARS.
And there's this swedish roleplaying game called Västmark where one of the key things in creating your character is to find out if it's a simple, normal, heroic, elite or epic character (more or less, can't remember the terms right now). The higher the "rank" the more skillpoints you got (and skill points was about all there was, no BAB or such, just skillpoints put into Longsword). And the idea is that a group can (and probably SHOULD) consist of characters of different ranks!

The thing is that balance does NOT automatically equal happier players. If everyone is OK with the focus being put very much on roleplaying and mechanics taking a back seat where imbalances will occur, then everyone can enjoy themselves just as much. I've seen it.
Of course, not all find it entertaining and it DOES mean more job for the DM (at least to avoid killing of the weaker characters and such). But it can in fact be just as enjoyable. I enjoy it at any rate. :smallbiggrin:

And it's OK that it's not for everyone. The same goes for the roleplaying systems themselves. Some hate DnD and "levels" others love it. Some love WoD, other thinks it's for emo kids (it ain't, it's for goths :smalltongue:).
The details of a game is not as important as whether the group agrees about them. :smallwink:

[Klear]

Depends on the focus of the game really. I've played a level 2 Jedi Guardian in a D20 Star Wars game where everyone else was at least level 10 (I was the padawan to a Jedi Consular/Master), an Aristocrat that never took levels in PC classes in a campaign that stretched for... about ten levels I think and a ghoul that never was Embraced in a V:tM chronicle that took TWO YEARS.
And there's this swedish roleplaying game called Västmark where one of the key things in creating your character is to find out if it's a simple, normal, heroic, elite or epic character (more or less, can't remember the terms right now). The higher the "rank" the more skillpoints you got (and skill points was about all there was, no BAB or such, just skillpoints put into Longsword). And the idea is that a group can (and probably SHOULD) consist of characters of different ranks!

I've only played DnD once in my life, but I distinctly remember how I (luckily before I began) realized that it is not about winning, or being the greatest, or anything. Completely unlike computer games. I liked being a little detached from the character in the way that I didn't try to save him from doing something stupid if it was in character... if that makes any sense =)

BTW, I tend try to play computer games in this way too, if possible, to the point that I actually use the walk button when outside of action and there is urgency in the story at that moment...

[Calenestel]

I've only played DnD once in my life, but I distinctly remember how I (luckily before I began) realized that it is not about winning, or being the greatest, or anything. Completely unlike computer games. I liked being a little detached from the character in the way that I didn't try to save him from doing something stupid if it was in character... if that makes any sense =)

BTW, I tend try to play computer games in this way too, if possible, to the point that I actually use the walk button when outside of action and there is urgency in the story at that moment...

It makes sense. Congratulations, you're a roleplayer. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Now let's get back on topic, shall we? :smalltongue:

[dtilque]

maybe if roy flashes his great cleavage thog might let him win?

But Roy doesn't have the gender-changing belt anymore...

[Klear]

But Roy doesn't have the gender-changing belt anymore...

Too bad.. it might just work (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html)

[Skaven]

Maybe Roy will sunder his greataxe. Greataxes aren't very durable to that feat.

[martianmister]

You seem to be making the implicit assumption that Thog is telling the truth when he says he hasn't seen Nale in a long while...

That's out of character for him. And there is no reason to his lying.

[wumpus]

I don't get the irony.

Ummm... Yes? Of course? :smallconfused:

Balance = happier players, less headaches for DMs, more fun. No? :smalleek:

While the idea that wizards should start weak and end powerful is important to D&D, it should still be swords and sorcery. Not arcane sorcery (wizardry) & divine sorcery.

[Mr. Bean]

Interesting. What you typically see is the bad guys winning until the very end, then the good guy wins for some reason or another. Unfortunately, OotS isn't typical. It might just mean the bad guys are winning until the very end, and win the battle too. I get that always making the bad guys win the majority of the time makes it more exciting, but I would be fairly disappointed if V and/or Roy would be defeated. Roy could possibly be defeated and not allowed to be killed by Tarquin, but V is in no such situation. If defeated, Nale's team would be very stupid to not kill V off immediately. V might just escape, heavily wounded, though. Both seem like the most logical result, as both V and Roy are outnumbered/outpowered.

[Lord Raziere]

Thog seems smarter somehow, smarter than usual that is. :smallconfused:

......

I think I know where Sabine is.

[Gnoman]

Sabine needed makeup just to get by in Azure City. Now you think she can turn green?

[ORione]

maybe if roy flashes his great cleavage thog might let him win?

:thog: thog thinks pretty girls are icky.

[Seerow]

Different players have different playing styles and that leads to viewing different things as "smart moves". If you really want balance and/or expect a lot of competition or conflict in the group, then the smart moves might be few. I dunno.
I'm a ROLEplayer and don't care much for the mechanics. I enjoy playing fighters and paladins even with only the core rulebooks available and if I get upstaged in combat by the mages and CoDzillas so what? I still have an awesome character that gives me a lot of fun because my fighter might live for battle, but it's not the only thing I play him for. :smallsmile:

Edit: Please note that I find nothing inherently wrong with playstyles that focuses less on ROLEplaying, or that might even rely purely on ROLLplaying. Hey! If it floats your boat I'm happy for ya! It's just not my cup of tea and that means that I can actually enjoy playing (very) suboptimal characters. :smalltongue:
To each his/her own, you know. :smallwink:

I spy Stormwind Fallacy!

[blackjack217]

I think the title should be
http://files.sharenator.com/Troll_Face_U_MAD_RE_wrestling_1-s407x405-126802.jpg

[Kish]

I spy Stormwind Fallacy!

The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy
Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa.

Setting aside the question of whether Tempest Stormwind has an authority that should lead to the words "Stormwind Fallacy" being sufficient to win a debate, your four-word post would seem to imply that you're under the impression the Stormwind Fallacy goes "optimization is good" or "optimization is intrinsic to roleplaying," rather than "optimization is independent of roleplaying." Frequently, on this forum, people suggest that Roy/Vaarsuvius/Elan (or slightly less often, someone else) are doing something objectively wrong by not designing their builds to follow internet-approved optimization designs. The Stormwind Fallacy, as stated, does not justify that. If Tempest Stormwind has said things elsewhere that would justify it, that just lowers my opinion of him.

[Seerow]

Setting aside the question of whether Tempest Stormwind has an authority that should lead to the words "Stormwind Fallacy" being sufficient to win a debate, your four-word post would seem to imply that you're under the impression the Stormwind Fallacy goes "optimization is good" or "optimization is intrinsic to roleplaying," rather than "optimization is independent of roleplaying." Frequently, on this forum, people suggest that Roy/Vaarsuvius/Elan (or slightly less often, someone else) are doing something objectively wrong by not designing their builds to follow internet-approved optimization designs. The Stormwind Fallacy, as stated, does not justify that. If Tempest Stormwind has said things elsewhere that would justify it, that just lowers my opinion of him.

The post I quoted was a rant on how he will play a bad character and it doesn't matter because he is a ROLE PLAYER and like a real ROLE PLAYER he will play it, and be fine despite being crappy. He goes on to say that people who optimize are in fact ROLL PLAYERS and that is a completely different playstyle, that isn't his cup of tea.

As you pointed out, the Stormwind Fallacy says that optimization and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive, and it fits the quoted post just fine without any need for extrapolation or unfortunate implications.

[Valley]

Thug...hehehehe...

Roy is doomed.

[Calenestel]

The post I quoted was a rant on how he will play a bad character and it doesn't matter because he is a ROLE PLAYER and like a real ROLE PLAYER he will play it, and be fine despite being crappy. He goes on to say that people who optimize are in fact ROLL PLAYERS and that is a completely different playstyle, that isn't his cup of tea.

As you pointed out, the Stormwind Fallacy says that optimization and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive, and it fits the quoted post just fine without any need for extrapolation or unfortunate implications.

1: I wasn't ranting. I was actually in a rather good mood and making conversation. :smallwink:

2: Yes I'd say that a good roleplayer builds a character fluffwise first and worries about crunch later, and that optimizing is rather unimportant. It shows that I started out with free form.
I just have another way of enjoying things. :smallsmile:

3: I never said that optimization and roleplaying are mutually exclusive. I did say that if you worry about optimization then imbalanced classes bother you more than if you don't worry about that. And that I, as a roleplayer doesn't care about that. Not that every roleplayer agree with me. I know they don't. :smalltongue:

4: Thus I didn't say that people who optimize aren't roleplayers. I have tried optimizing myself. I suck at it but I've tried it. :smallbiggrin:

5: I reject the Stormwind Fallacy. :smallwink:
(Edit for clarification: that it would apply to me, that is)

[CrazyBlue]

This fight between Roy and Thog really isn't living up to what I would have expected from all the buildup.

Also, the banter from Thog really doesn't match with his intelligence from earlier in the comic, but with specific knowledge that he would not have shared with other people, we're left to conclude it really is Thog. I can accept a character that's not very bright having the occasional moment where they say something clever, but when there are so many examples of that crammed into 2 comics, it's obvious that the character is not stupid. Perhaps if he was a PC it would make sense for this to occur.

I enjoy the comic, but frankly I'm pretty disappointed with a lot of the arena portion after the lizard-folk escaped.

[sims796]

This fight between Roy and Thog really isn't living up to what I would have expected from all the buildup.

Also, the banter from Thog really doesn't match with his intelligence from earlier in the comic, but with specific knowledge that he would not have shared with other people, we're left to conclude it really is Thog. I can accept a character that's not very bright having the occasional moment where they say something clever, but when there are so many examples of that crammed into 2 comics, it's obvious that the character is not stupid. Perhaps if he was a PC it would make sense for this to occur.

I enjoy the comic, but frankly I'm pretty disappointed with a lot of the arena portion after the lizard-folk escaped.

I myself wouldn't say that I'm disappointed by the gladitorial arc, I just wish it would hurry up already. We finally get something interesting happen after Thog showed up - that green haired elf was actually Z. Cool. But now we get back to a fluff epoisode. The sooner this wraps up, the better.

My only thing with it is that since this comic isn't daily, and almost inconsisstent with releases, it makes this arc seem slower than it actually is (put down the pitchforks, I know the author has a life outside this comic).

[Shoelessgdowar]

Thog's simplicity vs. Roy's intelligence. Why am I now feeling sorry for Roy? :smalleek:

:thog: Because you should never get into an arguement with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience :roy:


You seem to be making the implicit assumption that Thog is telling the truth when he says he hasn't seen Nale in a long while...

I point you to Thog's perception of time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), see the last panel. Long time for Thog could be a day or two. Alos, as someone mentioned, as long as Thog made sure Nale had breadcrumbs this time, leaving Thog for any period of time is probably okay in Thog's mind as long as Nale told him he'd be back for him.


:thog: thog sad. why people want thog to die? thog wants to live.




You mean you've never heard of Tome of Battle?! :smalleek:

It's meant to fix melee classes. Think, a 20th level fighter gets 11 bonus feats, whereas a 20th level wizard gets wish, gate, time stop, dominate monster, empowered dominate person, etc. So to balance it, WotC made Tome of Battle, one of their very few smart moves.

Wow!!! Roy so wishes he were a Warblade... Higher HP and he could know Steely Strike (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=4) which would give him an advantage, as well as Battle Ardor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) so he'd be criting more... of course the Battle Cunning is sort of useless vs Thog, and Battle Mastery is only good if Thog provokes any AoOs.



Out of nowhere:

:belkar: POW! Pebble attack critical hit!

:thog: thog dizzy!

:roy: Weapon specialization FTW!

Nah, Belkar wouldn't throw it at Thog, the stone is going to kill Sir Scraggly, which will cause Yukyuk to go flying and splatter on a wall... 1 stone, kills 2 foes... that is a proper use of the stone


I hope Thog gets killed.

Thog can't die, he is immortal.


God you people are Lawful! :smallwink:

Aren't they though!!!

[Kish]

The post I quoted was
Yeah, um. I don't think the post you quoted says what you're claiming it says. The poster you quoted doesn't think the post you quoted says what you're claiming it says.

[Zea mays]

I do love the poor Zebrafolk, but I have minor art nitpick, which I believe (surprisingly) no one's mentioned yet - an equine's hooves are not cloven.

[faustin]

Thog can't die, he is immortal.

So, if Roy manages to behead him, shouldn´t appear an bunch of lightings from the heavens and Queen´s voice singing "Prince of the Universe"?:smallwink:

[M.A.D]

I think Roy used his Weapon Specialization in Panel 9, and didn't even leave a scratch on Thog. Can we calculate something about Thog's level with that?


Does it make you SAD?

*sighs* I want a girlfriend

[Shoelessgdowar]

I think Roy used his Weapon Specialization in Panel 9, and didn't even leave a scratch on Thog. Can we calculate something about Thog's level with that?



*sighs* I want a girlfriend

Dude, I don't get you.

[Warren Dew]

Yes I'd say that a good roleplayer builds a character fluffwise first and worries about crunch later
I'd say that a good roleplayer creates believable characters, and the only way of doing that is to make sure that the "fluff" of the character's personality and characterization is tied to the "crunch" of the character's mechanical capabilities. In many systems, that means the "crunch" has to come first if you're going to be a really good roleplayer.

That's assuming there are such things as "good" and "bad" roleplayers, of course.

[slurpzURbrainz]

Hello! Delurk alert! First of all Thank you so much Giant for the awesome OOTS. Thank you Thank you Thank you.

Secondly.. About Iq in 3.5 fighter types... The swashbuckler class, complete warrior pp 11, gets to add its iq bonus to light weapon damage at third level... it gets weapon finesse as a bonus feat at first level. I havent made a fighter since.

Thirdly, I love so many characters in OOTS, including Thog. Nale I could enjoy seeing die... Thog.... well... I dont see how.. but I hope he can be reformed somehow, and I think Elan would hope so too.

Thanks again Giant!

[Tvtyrant]

*sighs* I want a girlfriend

Eh, sad girlfriends rarely work well with mad men.

[Scarlet Knight]

How do you know its a "she"?:smallconfused:

She's in the classic Vallejo female captive pose!

All males to be whipped must be in a standing position when appearing in Sword & Sorcery art...

[MoonCat]

Strange how the arms are normal arms, while the back legs are animal legs.

[M.A.D]

Dude, I don't get you.

Means that I'm Single

[Tvtyrant]

Strange how the arms are normal arms, while the back legs are animal legs.

I believe by the fact that it is a Zebrafolk it is supposed to be bipedal, its just being held down by the chains.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Means that I'm Single

Read the title of the Strip...

I said

I don't get you :)

Your name is in the title ;)

[Icedaemon]

Hm, so we're back to the fighters, eh? Well, it looks like Nale did just basically dump Thog here -- so whatever is afoot, Thog is just enjoying himself with a bit of random slaughter.

Assuming that this plan was made by someone other than Nale, this would indeed make the most sense - Thog is not all that easy to control and probably of the most use as a distraction like this.

[Niknokitueu]

Dear Rich,

Liked the strip. As a player of a D&D-style system that does take account of high INT, I do tend to forget that high INT is worthless here.

Kinda makes me proud to be a Hacker. :smallbiggrin:

Keep up the good work, and I hope Roy turns out okay after getting Thogged. :smallwink:

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Garwain]

... In many systems, that means the "crunch" has to come first if you're going to be a really good roleplayer.
I don't agree. If you have a character in mind to role play, you create the character (fluff) and then add the mechanics to fit to the fluff. I'm sure the OOTS characters are product of a process where the story was used to find the right build. Not the story adapted to the build.

spoilered because off topic
I wanted to play a character who is yelling "must be a sign of the gods!" all the time while being stubborn and iron willed. So I made a cleric with the feat "Iron Will". And I like it, it makes role play that much easier than playing some exotic contruction that breaks your mouth while telling the backstory.

A really good role player does not necessarily cares about numbers. If you don't do anything stupid your DM won't kill you anyway.

[Dalek-K]

spoilered because off topic
I wanted to play a character who is yelling "must be a sign of the gods!" all the time while being stubborn and iron willed. So I made a cleric with the feat "Iron Will". And I like it, it makes role play that much easier than playing some exotic contruction that breaks your mouth while telling the backstory.

A really good role player does not necessarily cares about numbers. If you don't do anything stupid your DM won't kill you anyway.

If the criteria for killing a character is "Did he do anything stupid today/last time" then that is a horrible DM :smallfurious::smalleek:

Sometimes death is part of the flow of the story and doesn't have to be the end... I think this comic proved that.

Perhaps it is time that Roy creates his own prestige class? He is smart enough and has trained quite. Don't get me wrong, not everyone in the party needs a prestige class but I could see Roy taking this wupping as a life lesson and after seeing how much better Elan got... taking Elan's PrC and fixing it to Int. Hmmm a Roy X Julio fight so that Julio will explain how to create a PrC? :smalltongue:

Of course Tarquin may already have that sort of PrC (int to attack and damage) since he is a fighter type and obviously pretty darn smart. Teaching it to Roy for Elan's sake would be a great plot point. Even something like

Tarquin: I'm going to teach you this PrC so that you can help my son. It allows you to add Int to Attack and Damage and it cancels out pun based attacks once you get high enough level.

Roy: Why not just teach it to Elan.... Oh right...

[ThePhantasm]

I'll admit, I didn't immediately get the title correctly. Before I read the comic it looked like a reference to GLAD trash bags.

[H Birchgrove]

The wizard's site has some information here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2). You can also find it in the Tome of Battle book.

Thanks! :smallcool:


You mean you've never heard of Tome of Battle?! :smalleek:

It's meant to fix melee classes. Think, a 20th level fighter gets 11 bonus feats, whereas a 20th level wizard gets wish, gate, time stop, dominate monster, empowered dominate person, etc. So to balance it, WotC made Tome of Battle, one of their very few smart moves.

I haven't played Dungeons and Dragons. (For some time I didn't even know that "moral alignment", so often used in Internet memes, came from it.) I have learned most about through OoTS, TV Tropes, these forums, and then by websites like the D'n'D Wiki through links from these forums.

Thanks for the explanation. :smallsmile:

[Grogmir]

Nice strip Giant.

I think all this PrC talk for Roy is crazy. Roy is a straight fighter and proud of that fact. He aint changing now!

[ORione]

I'll admit, I didn't immediately get the title correctly. Before I read the comic it looked like a reference to GLAD trash bags.

Yeah, so was I.

[cheesymetal]

Yeah, so was I.

me too. took me a second look.

[Warren Dew]

I don't agree. If you have a character in mind to role play, you create the character (fluff) and then add the mechanics to fit to the fluff. I'm sure the OOTS characters are product of a process where the story was used to find the right build. Not the story adapted to the build.
The OOTS characters are D&D 3.0 characters. As I recall, D&D 3.0 character are created by random rolls, which somewhat necessitates a mechanics first approach. Granted more recently created characters - Thog perhaps - would have been allowed to assign their rolls.


If you don't do anything stupid your DM won't kill you anyway.
What if you want to roleplay a stupid character? Elan's low intelligence would be much less convincing if he'd never done anything stupid.

[Gray Mage]

The OOTS characters are D&D 3.0 characters. As I recall, D&D 3.0 character are created by random rolls, which somewhat necessitates a mechanics first approach. Granted more recently created characters - Thog perhaps - would have been allowed to assign their rolls.


Actually, they are 3.5 Ed. And while rolling is a way of determining stats (I, myself, prefer point buy), you usually can assign the rolls.

[hamishspence]

To be even more precise, they were 3.0 characters but were updated to 3.5 at the very start of the comic :smallwink:

[M.A.D]

Dude, I don't get you.


Read the title of the Strip...

I said

I don't get you :)

Your name is in the title ;)

I know ^^

I'm MAD, but I'm also SAD and I'm also not SAD

I'm not SAD not because I'm not Single Ability Dependency, and I'm SAD because I'm single

[Shoelessgdowar]

I know ^^

I'm MAD, but I'm also SAD and I'm also not SAD

I'm not SAD not because I'm not Single Ability Dependency, and I'm SAD because I'm single

Sounds like you're a bit bipolar :biggrin::furious::frown::confused:

Perhaps you should learn to be RAD (Reliable Attribute Diversified)

Oh, and while I'm probably one of the worst people to advise on relationships, putting more points in you charisma can't hurt... it worked for Elan

[JonestheSpy]

The OOTS characters are D&D 3.0 characters. As I recall, D&D 3.0 character are created by random rolls, which somewhat necessitates a mechanics first approach. Granted more recently created characters - Thog perhaps - would have been allowed to assign their rolls.


No. No. No. Really, there's O-Chul's joke about his Charisma and Belkar making fun of Elan, but I really really don't think people point buy their stats in the Ootsverse. It's a character generation system that just doesn't translate to any kind of real storytelling. Elan, Belkar, and Thog did not choose to be dumb to boost other stats, they just are.

Roy chose to be a fighter largely in rebellion against his dad. So does that mean that at some point in his early teens he said "Well, gee, I guess I'll have to become stupider or less agile or something so I can boost my strength"? Of course not.

[Warren Dew]

No. No. No. Really, there's O-Chul's joke about his Charisma and Belkar making fun of Elan, but I really really don't think people point buy their stats in the Ootsverse. It's a character generation system that just doesn't translate to any kind of real storytelling. Elan, Belkar, and Thog did not choose to be dumb to boost other stats, they just are.
Maybe you could go back and reread my post? I was arguing the exact same thing you are, at least in the case of Elan and Belkar: it wasn't a point buy system, they "just are" dumb - because that's what they rolled.

[Kish]

The OOTS characters are D&D 3.0 characters.

Were.

As I recall, D&D 3.0 character are created by random rolls,

From the rest of your post, I'm gathering that by "random rolls," you mean "rolls which they cannot place as they please." Quite wrong. Roll 4d6 six times, drop the lowest die each time, assemble the results however you want them, was the default method for 3.0ed as it was for 3.5ed.

[JonestheSpy]

Maybe you could go back and reread my post? I was arguing the exact same thing you are, at least in the case of Elan and Belkar: it wasn't a point buy system, they "just are" dumb - because that's what they rolled.

But you were suggesting that other characters, such as Thog, could be somehow have chosen their stats. And I'm saying no, it just doesn't work across the board. Sorry if using Roy as an example confused that point.

[FatJose]

Aren't the stat rolls an abstract anyway? Isn't the point of the random stats supposed to be so...well..I have no idea what the point of random stats are. I always point buy. The characters have their stats because of the way they lived. That is all. Roy has high int because he was well educated and raised in a family of smart people, some of it might be genes as well. He's got good physical scores because he went through what was essentially boot camp and he has his grandfather's genes for good measure. Had he made different choices in life he could have easily become a very high int wizard who may have been slightly tougher than the usual bookworm. The difference is that he "chose."

I'm assuming alot here and its all up to interpretation but, a character who rolls perfect 18 stats wasn't just lucky. Those stats say he/she worked hard physically and mentally before becoming old enough to adventure while someone who roles a lot of 10 s is just an average guy, take the main character of Idiocracy. Always scraped by on the bare minimum. Not a dumb guy, but he's a little too laid back, a very "meh" person. In OotS, yes there are tons of jokes about mechanics, but the random stat rolls are there because your characters rarely if ever have a fully 100% fleshed out background that explains every point they've earned.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Were.

From the rest of your post, I'm gathering that by "random rolls," you mean "rolls which they cannot place as they please." Quite wrong. Roll 4d6 six times, drop the lowest die each time, assemble the results however you want them, was the default method for 3.0ed as it was for 3.5ed.

This might work, but then that brings up the master roller issue, which I think Thog is. Thog is the guy who rolled nearly all 6s, so he has placed Str 18(20), Dex 18, Con 18, Int 6(4), Wis 16, Char 18(16)... with the parentheses being his stats after racial mods. Giving us the Dumb but wise, charming, really strong, agile, and tough Half-Orc Barbarian/Fighter... and he probably chose to focus on building his strength and toughness instead of studying to be smarter(of course being a Barbarian and being illiterate probably doesn't help with that)


Maybe you could go back and reread my post? I was arguing the exact same thing you are, at least in the case of Elan and Belkar: it wasn't a point buy system, they "just are" dumb - because that's what they rolled.

They also frequently discuss the dump stat, the stat where you dump your low roll so you can have better rolls put elsewhere. So Elan, having been hit in the head, and feeling intelligence just makes the world icky and depressing, chose to be blissfully dumb, but wanted that charisma and agility for all those fun flips and performance skills, and a touch of strength and constitution are needed, after all gymnasts are actually quite strong especially for their sizes and anyone who is going to be dancing and singing needs to have stamina to keep going and going and going (though Haley can probably tell us how large a 'constitution score' Elan has... but there is a reason why Thog is so afraid of girls, cause they've pursued him for his exceptionally well allocated 'constitution score' for all his post adolescent life). As for Roy, well the problem comes that Roy, so he could have that huge brain to go with his Brawn, probably made a major mistake, and placed his 18 in Intelligence (since we know that his combined mental scores were better then V's when they encountered the Squidy-Guy... which since V says he has an 18 in Int and has to have high Wisdom for his spells, but has a somewhat low charisma, and Roy's shown some lack of both charisma and wisdom at times, must mean Roy had at least an 18 in intelligence if not higher from placing points in intelligence when he leveled), leaving his Strength and Constitution a bit lower then max, as well I think where most people have a single dumpstat, Roy has 3 (yes 3... He Sacraficed Dex, Wis, and Charisma, so he could have higher Int, Str, and Con... as seen by his inability to dodge traps and properly freefall, his inability to notice opponents and realize when Belkar is lying, and his general bad attitude)



No. No. No. Really, there's O-Chul's joke about his Charisma and Belkar making fun of Elan, but I really really don't think people point buy their stats in the Ootsverse. It's a character generation system that just doesn't translate to any kind of real storytelling. Elan, Belkar, and Thog did not choose to be dumb to boost other stats, they just are.

Roy chose to be a fighter largely in rebellion against his dad. So does that mean that at some point in his early teens he said "Well, gee, I guess I'll have to become stupider or less agile or something so I can boost my strength"? Of course not.

But you were suggesting that other characters, such as Thog, could be somehow have chosen their stats. And I'm saying no, it just doesn't work across the board. Sorry if using Roy as an example confused that point.

Actually from the Dumpstat comments, I'd say it is likely they do choose where their rolls go and do choose where to allocate their bonus attribute points... Belkar recently may have taken a point of wisdom from the experience from his brush with death, and it is staring to show. Roy had to have some way to move his Intelligence and overall Mental Scores higher then V's for the Squidy-Guy to think him the most appetizing thing to eat, and as we've seen over and over, knowledge of the system allows them to affect it (delayed hits and damage due to correcting the previous rolls, roleplay xp, knowing about how feats affect matters, knowing how to cross-class for bonus feats, and knowing which stats to optimize so not to waste time with an attribute that gives no bonuses to attack/damage/crits/etc.)

[ORione]

(since we know that his combined mental scores were better then V's when they encountered the Squidy-Guy... which since V says he has an 18 in Int and has to have high Wisdom for his spells, but has a somewhat low charisma, and Roy's shown some lack of both charisma and wisdom at times, must mean Roy had at least an 18 in intelligence if not higher from placing points in intelligence when he leveled)


I'm not going to get into this argument, but I want to correct you on something.

As a wizard, V's Intelligence affects his spells, not his Wisdom. Wisdom affects divine spells.

[Forikroder]

(since we know that his combined mental scores were better then V's when they encountered the Squidy-Guy... which since V says he has an 18 in Int and has to have high Wisdom for his spells, but has a somewhat low charisma, and Roy's shown some lack of both charisma and wisdom at times, must mean Roy had at least an 18 in intelligence if not higher from placing points in intelligence when he leveled)


not neccearily, whos to say a mindflayers tsates is based on int?

[Querzis]

As for Roy, well the problem comes that Roy, so he could have that huge brain to go with his Brawn, probably made a major mistake, and placed his 18 in Intelligence (since we know that his combined mental scores were better then V's when they encountered the Squidy-Guy... which since V says he has an 18 in Int and has to have high Wisdom for his spells, but has a somewhat low charisma, and Roy's shown some lack of both charisma and wisdom at times, must mean Roy had at least an 18 in intelligence if not higher from placing points in intelligence when he leveled)

The Giant himself said that no, the mindflayer didnt chose Roy because he has higher int then V, he just got higher overall mental stats. Also Roy got great charisma, I really have no idea why you would assume otherwise, where has he shown a «lack in charisma»? I'm pretty damn sure hes showing awesome charisma everytime he manage to control his crazy teamates. His wisdom does seems average though. Just like V wisdom seems average. I really have no clue why you would think he need wisdom for his spells and he never showed especially good wisdom. He did show bad charisma though, he just suck at personal interactions and understanding other people. So since V charisma is most definitly in the negative, overall Roy would just need to have 14 int and 14 cha to have better mental stats then V.

And he most definitly still got around 18 strength so yeah, I really dont think Roy would have made a better wizard then he is a fighter.

[Calmness]

What's up with the angry smilie, anyway? Will we be getting one of those every time Roy makes an ass of himself?

[FatJose]

So...going by the food heads... Wisdom is fibrous, Charisma is sugary and Intelligence is fatty. Elan is like the Charisma=Appearance to the extreme, especially early on. He can attract women with his looks but once he opens his mouth its usually a hit or miss with significantly more miss for comedy's sake. SO, like the mind-flayer saw, diet soda. Tastes okay but no substance. I can't really tell what Roy was supposed to be. If there was some mashed potatoes and veggies it could be said he was a more balanced and hearty meal...but he's a whole turkey. I guess it's probably stuffed too...Hmm..What was this thread about again? :smalltongue:

[wumpus]

Note: the deva judging Roy in comic 490 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) suggests that Roy could have been a cleric and that he had "halfway descent wisdom and charisma scores, he could have pulled it off".

It looks like someone who looked at Roy's character sheet thinks he as a high wisdom as well.

[rewinn]

So...going by the food heads... I can't really tell what Roy was supposed to be. If there was some mashed potatoes and veggies it could be said he was a more balanced and hearty meal...but he's a whole turkey. I guess it's probably stuffed too...
Belkar seems to think of Roy as a "turkey", and often wishes he'd "get stuffed".:smalltongue:

[Witty Username]

:roy: warblade, really? It kind of defeats the purpose of being you-know, non-magic badass.
Hitting the books, their are a number of good core for fighters when not fighting mages. combat expertise can reduce power attack, Greater weapon focus+weapon specialization means roy probably has higher to hit and damage, Imp. disarm or Imp. trip can give him free hits, higher crit range(better if has Imp. Crit), Imp. Sunder
:thog: yay, thog thanks thog's fans!
Higher strength, power attack(Reduces attack roll), rage(reduces AC, no thought based actions, and fatigued after), more HP

Advantage- Roy, Using Imp. disarm and combat expertise(assumptions) Thog cannot power attack without risk of losing his weapon and/or not hitting, no rage because of Roy can outlast it(or run around a bit)Edit:it is also possible roy can disarm thog and Rich can rule picking up your weapon would be un-rage like, higher crit allows for more likely chance of extreme damage, If Roy has imp. sunder game over for Thog

[DougTheHead]

Roy doesn't need an entire prestige class: just a feat, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise) which Thog is too dumb to have taken.

And I find it very difficult to believe that Roy would be killed again so soon, so (hopefully) he's safe for the moment.

Man, looking at that list, it seems like Roy should have a whole list of feats built off Combat Expertise. Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip... he could be the Allen Iverson of melee combat. I don't know if he would have enough feats to afford Whirlwind Attack, but that would just about complete the comparison.

Giant has mentioned Roy's lack of build optimization in the past; is this the point where that starts to become a problem? Will Roy need to swallow his pride, multiclass to Wizard, and take Spell Mastery?

[Querzis]

Man, looking at that list, it seems like Roy should have a whole list of feats built off Combat Expertise. Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip... he could be the Allen Iverson of melee combat. I don't know if he would have enough feats to afford Whirlwind Attack, but that would just about complete the comparison.

Giant has mentioned Roy's lack of build optimization in the past; is this the point where that starts to become a problem? Will Roy need to swallow his pride, multiclass to Wizard, and take Spell Mastery?

A multiclass between a fighting and magic class is just a really horrible combination. Not only would Roy need to lose his armor to be able to cast anything efficiently but magic missiles and the other level 1 spells really woudnt help around Roy level anyway. So he would be a level 13-15 fighter who would be able to throw around 1D4+1 of force damage if he get his armor off...that help him so much. You combine two spellcasters class or you combine two fighting class, the only exception to this is the Arcane Trickster (and I know nobody who ever bothered to get that one...if you do tell me.)

Beside, as I already said, Roy still got more strength then he got any other stats so a melee class is still the best choice for him. Make him multiclass if you want but pretty much every class would be more helpfull then Wizard/Sorcerer (yes, even bard and cleric would actually give him bonus instead of doing absolutely nothing).