DM gave me some homebrew... How can I break this now

[Vallum]

So, from last time I discussed my character, it was the Barbarian||Rogue hybrid, (promptly threw that out the window). Going with a rogue/thief, But I am still going to be Half-Orc. I was talking on our groups facebook page on how I hate that drow got so much love for ranged weapons. My DM agree'd and promptly made this feat.


Brutal Shot
Prereq: Half Orc
When charging with a pistol you may make a ranged basic attack at any point in the charge without provoking an opportunity attack.

Now, by itself, its good, but then he also gave me this:

Also, for rogues, pistols and rifles will count as a crossbow for the purpose of using powers. Pistols have Dagger bayonets on them, while Rifles have axe-like bayonets

I'm guessing the rifle's bayonets will be handaxe stats. But its a free action to switch from using it as a ranged weapon to a melee weapon, and rogues/thieves will be proficient with them. I know he's thinking still how the guns are going to be, (reload time, damage of gun shots, price), but I know its going to be damaging. With the bayonets on them, I can mix it in melee for a while. I have the rolls to pull of a such a combination, (18, 18, 17, 16, 13, 13). Aside from multiclass ranger to take manticore fury, what else can I do? Should I be rogue or thief? What can I do to optimize this Half-Orc pirate of mine?
(oh, btw, our party is two Fighters(sword& board, and maybe freehand/something), an Artificer, a Nethermancer, and a Warlock so far)

[Sol]

that's a lot of homebrew...

I'd make a standard charging thief using a pistol. You'd have all of the standard charging thief badassery with an extra RBA per charge.

[Vallum]

that's a lot of homebrew...

I'd make a standard charging thief using a pistol. You'd have all of the standard charging thief badassery with an extra RBA per charge.

There is so much homebrew for this group, the DM is thinking of making a pdf of all the rules he's made.
So what at-will stances would you recommend of a 2nd level thief? 20 Dex is obvious, but how else should I prioritize my stats?

[Sol]

Probably Acrobatic's Trick and then your choice of either Tactical Trick or Ambush Trick.

For feats you want Light Blade Expertise and then either Surprising Charge or Brutal Shot.

The standard human charging thief feat progression is
Human: Light Blade Expertise
Level 1: Nimble Blade
Level 2: Surprising Charge
Level 4: Backstabber (retrained to Lasting Frost at Level 11)
Level 6: Battle Awareness
Level 8: Weapon Proficiency (Warhammer)
Level 10: Kulkor Battlearm Student
Level 11: Deft Blade
Level 12: Wintertouched
Level 14: Silvery Glow
Level 16: Improved Defenses
Level 18: Backstabber
Level 20: Superior Will
Level 21: Light Blade Mastery
Level 22: Slaying Action
Level 24: Reserve Maneuver
Level 26: Martial Mastery
Level 28: Epic Fortitude
Level 30: Disciple of Freedom

with going Kulkor Arms Master for a free MBA every time you prone (which you can do every time you charge by using Unbalancing Trick), and largely ignoring KAM's other features and abilities, since they're strength based. That would make your optimal turn after level 16 unbalancing trick+charge+RBA+sneak attack+MBA+backstab+MBA. Without using an action point.

obviously since you're not human and you have that homebrew feat above, you'll want to rework that progression a little bit, but use it as a general guide.

[Drglenn]

Barbarian and (Maruder) Ranger get a lot of charging powers, you could use them to exploit these, especially if that pistol is an off-hand weapon.

[Vallum]

Barbarian and (Marauder) Ranger get a lot of charging powers, you could use them to exploit these, especially if that pistol is an off-hand weapon.

True, but my DM has been foreshadowing that the reload time will be a *****, so being stuck with a d4 with pistol bayonet or d6, (maybe d8), with rifle bayonet until I have time to reload will defiantly bring down the dps of a [W] focused barbarian, (was going to be my original character... Until I found out that the DM was stingy about two-handed superior weapons).
This will be the same issue with the ranger, who likes to get his hands on the biggest one-handed weapons he can, (and Marauders like to throw things).
Now, that charge would be awesome in either case, (RBA+Charge+WIS+quarry dmg or RBA+Charge+1d6)
Now, if I could get my reload time fast enough, rifle ranger would probably be god-like, (and that's just guessing the rifle will be a better then a crossbow, damage wise, maybe 2d6, so 4d6 + quarry!)
But, in either case, a thief charger, with Tactical Trick on, will have RBA+charge[with dex rather then str]+2d6+2. after that, even with the pistol out of commission, he can keep his dps up because he doesn't need the big [W] for his normal attacks, (shanky shanky with the bayonet is now useful because it counts as a dagger), so his non-charge dps will be 1d4+dex+2+2d6, maybe another +2 with acrobatics trick and good coordination, (I should, its not hard to flank in 4ed).
If only normal rogues could charge :smallsigh:
Oh well.

[MeeposFire]

Normal rogues can charge just fine. You just go brutal scoundrel with a half orc race and you are good to go.

[Siegel]

With those weapon options wouldn't a Two-Weapon Barbarian, Brutal Scoundrel Hybrid wouldn't make sense ?

Dual wielding dagger pistols seems really cool to me :smallcool:

[Drglenn]

True, but my DM has been foreshadowing that the reload time will be a *****, so being stuck with a d4 with pistol bayonet or d6, (maybe d8), with rifle bayonet until I have time to reload will defiantly bring down the dps of a [W] focused barbarian, (was going to be my original character... Until I found out that the DM was stingy about two-handed superior weapons).
This will be the same issue with the ranger, who likes to get his hands on the biggest one-handed weapons he can, (and Marauders like to throw things).
Now, that charge would be awesome in either case, (RBA+Charge+WIS+quarry dmg or RBA+Charge+1d6)
Now, if I could get my reload time fast enough, rifle ranger would probably be god-like, (and that's just guessing the rifle will be a better then a crossbow, damage wise, maybe 2d6, so 4d6 + quarry!)
But, in either case, a thief charger, with Tactical Trick on, will have RBA+charge[with dex rather then str]+2d6+2. after that, even with the pistol out of commission, he can keep his dps up because he doesn't need the big [W] for his normal attacks, (shanky shanky with the bayonet is now useful because it counts as a dagger), so his non-charge dps will be 1d4+dex+2+2d6, maybe another +2 with acrobatics trick and good coordination, (I should, its not hard to flank in 4ed).
If only normal rogues could charge :smallsigh:
Oh well.

Charge in with the pistol out, get your shot off as you go in, then switch to a more melee-effective weapon after the first round.
That or take multiple guns so you only need to reload between fights

[Vallum]

Charge in with the pistol out, get your shot off as you go in, then switch to a more melee-effective weapon after the first round.
That or take multiple guns so you only need to reload between fights

I'm trying not to end up like blackbeard. I really, really am.


With those weapon options wouldn't a Two-Weapon Barbarian, Brutal Scoundrel Hybrid wouldn't make sense ?

Dual wielding dagger pistols seems really cool to me :smallcool:

Tried to make one before, but the barbarian relies on big [W] damage or larger weapons, while rogue powers don't mesh at all with the weapons a Barbarian needs for his DPS. +, hybrid rogue sneak attack only works for rogue powers.

And yes, that defiantly qualifies for the 'rule of cool' minimum quota for being a cool pirate. :smallcool:


Normal rogues can charge just fine. You just go brutal scoundrel with a half orc race and you are good to go.

For that to work, I'd need a way to create CA more effectively. I know how frost works, (but DM would smack me silly if I tried), so that wouldn't work. I know of an Half-Orc feat that allows me CA for the round I use furious assault, but it will only work for that round.
That's what's awesome about the thief though: as long as me melee allies are fighting, no matter where I am, I can get CA. Whether I'm 2 squares away or 10 squares, (so I could totally be a sniper with that trick alone). Also, no AoO when I'm shifting about with allies around because of, once again, Tactical Trick, so I can get back and charge without provoking AoO from my enemies, (as long as I have an ally adjacent to the enemy that I would provoke the AoO from).

[MeeposFire]

I'm trying not to end up like blackbeard. I really, really am.



Tried to make one before, but the barbarian relies on big [W] damage or larger weapons, while rogue powers don't mesh at all with the weapons a Barbarian needs for his DPS. +, hybrid rogue sneak attack only works for rogue powers.

And yes, that defiantly qualifies for the 'rule of cool' minimum quota for being a cool pirate. :smallcool:



For that to work, I'd need a way to create CA more effectively. I know how frost works, (but DM would smack me silly if I tried), so that wouldn't work. I know of an Half-Orc feat that allows me CA for the round I use furious assault, but it will only work for that round.
That's what's awesome about the thief though: as long as me melee allies are fighting, no matter where I am, I can get CA. Whether I'm 2 squares away or 10 squares, (so I could totally be a sniper with that trick alone). Also, no AoO when I'm shifting about with allies around because of, once again, Tactical Trick, so I can get back and charge without provoking AoO from my enemies, (as long as I have an ally adjacent to the enemy that I would provoke the AoO from).

In addition to permafrost you could just take the cunning stalker feat from Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms which allows you to get CA whenever you attack a target that has nobody next to them except you. If a target has one of your allies next to it use your great maneuverability to get into a charge into a flank position. If that still is not enough take a few of the rogue utilities to let it happen more. If a target is surrounded by a bunch of enemies and you do not have a defender friend to flank with you don't want to charge into that anyway so you can get CA fairly easily.

[Vallum]

In addition to permafrost you could just take the cunning stalker feat from Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms which allows you to get CA whenever you attack a target that has nobody next to them except you. If a target has one of your allies next to it use your great maneuverability to get into a charge into a flank position. If that still is not enough take a few of the rogue utilities to let it happen more. If a target is surrounded by a bunch of enemies and you do not have a defender friend to flank with you don't want to charge into that anyway so you can get CA fairly easily.

What powers would I take as a rogue if the latter most situation happened where I can't get in the hairy mash-up? Its another thing I liked about the Tactical Trick was being able to switch from ranged to melee with ease.
Also, can an enemy make an AoO if I move back from behind an enemy? TT can allow me to back up and charge every turn without provoking an AoO if the enemy is stupid enough to let me do as such.