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View Full Version : [3.5 Base Class] A monk/soulknife crossover and fix



MammonAzrael
2011-05-14, 02:36 PM
I submitted this class for the Base Class Challenge V (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10504199). While it did well, it unfortunately did not receive any critique or editing aside from my own. Nor did it get, I suspect, all that much exposure. I am very happy with the class, and would love to refine it more, so I am posting it here in it's own thread. Without further ado, my "fixed" monk/soulknife combination!


Ascetic

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs39/f/2008/350/a/7/a7061d7b23ee10cdfd1213da6c11da9a.jpg

ĒThe mind is everything. What you think you become.Ē - Buddha

Ascetics believe in the power of self above all else. The ability of their body and mind to meet any challenge they are confronted with, and pass through the trials. As they grow more practiced they gain greater control over their body through focused thought and meditation. They share a universal disdain for weapons, preferring, in the need arises, to battle with their thoughts. While they donít abstain from material goods, they do prefer simple items, like ones that offer basic enhancements or protection, and generally avoiding over complication. The path to ones of body and mind is clean and simple, though by no means easy.

Adventures: Ascetics can venture forth for a large number of reasons. They can be on a mission for a group of people that depend on them an order they belongs to, as most take their responsibilities seriously. An ascetic can be found wandering the world as they define their own path to oneness, the personal nature of their quest demanding a personal journey. Some ascetics even adventure merely to prove their might, to test their abilities against the world, and prove that their path is truly worthy of respect, without needing the crutches others cling to.

Characteristics: Ascetics are front-line combatants that excel at consistent, threatening damage, while being extremely resilient. Their harmonious combination of body and mind allows them to create some extremely impressive resistances and abilities, which they can, with effort, aid their allies with directly. An ascetic is always dangerous, as the only thing they really need is their mind.

Alignment: Ascetics can be found of all alignments, though they do heavily favor good or lawful ones, as both support their basic beliefs of strength in body and mind. Evil ascetics are uncommon, but those you find will often have a sense of honor and fair play, and will be extremely prideful of their powers, and are most often the ones out to test their might against the world. Chaotic ascetics the most rare, though the ones that can be found are focused on themselves, and their journey will take precedent over most everything they encounter.

Religion: Ascetics can follow gods, but most often they believe in a more spiritual connection to each individual, of each person attaining their own perfection. Interestingly, it is often wandering ascetics that most commonly revere a god, while those in an order or monastery rarely bother.

Background: Those that become ascetics generally approach it in one of two ways. The first is a quest to find a sense of self, looking for answers to questions from within, and discovering the impressive capabilities of their own person. Some others pursue a simple life, devoid of distractions and unnecessary additions or extraneous duties, and find the focused life of an ascetic perfect.

Races: Ascetics can be found among any race, as their belief in the combination of body and mind can transcend all boundaries. Dwarves can often be found among their ranks, and those that are typically become masterful blacksmiths, forging simple but effective things. Elves can find the meditation and introspection of the class perfect for their elegant sensibilities. Gnome ascetics are a rare breed, as the gnome that doesnít love complex things is an extreme curiosity. Warforged have been trending towards this class in greater numbers, as their search for answers leads them inwards.

Other Classes: Ascetics get on extremely well with monks, comparing differences in philosophy and style. They respect the martial prowess of barbarians and fighters, though they prefer to keep the company of the former. Casters of all sorts they find interesting, but ultimately fail to deeply connect with as the search for power outside oneself is so counter to an ascetics basic viewpoint. Rogues and bards they can enjoy for their quick wits and entertaining stories, but are often too entwined with the complexities of urban life and progress to not cause friction.

Role: Ascetics are combatants meant to be in the front of a battle, testing their might and protecting their comrades. They are extremely durable, but remain a large enough threat to demand attention, and they can function on their own for a time, making them excel at targeting opponents that are defended. They can provide a small supporting role as their abilities grow, granting a limited number of buffs to their party.

Adaptation: Any setting that has monks should be able to fit ascetics in without issue, even as a replacement for monks. If the world is laking in psionics it can be looked at from a more mystic angle.

Game Rule Information
Ascetic's have the following game statistics.

Abilities: Wisdom is the most important ability for ascetics, as it governs most of their class features, and gives them insight into the world and themselves. Otherwise, ascetics focus on their body equally in strength, dexterity, and constitution, depending on what their unique path is.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10
Starting Age: As monk.
Starting Gold: 5d4 gp

Class Skills
Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex)
Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Table: The Ascetic
{table=head]Level|
Base AttackBonus|
FortitudeSave|
Reflex[br]Save|
Will[br]Save|Special|
WoT[br]Damage|PP/Day

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|AC bonus, focused mind +1, weapon of thought|1d6|0

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Swift body, shaped thought|1d6|1

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|+1 weapon of thought, evasion|1d6|2

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Body of the pure, practiced draw|1d8|3

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Focused mind +2, refined thought +1, resilient body|1d8|4

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+5|+2 weapon of thought, Bonus psionic feat|1d8|4

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5|natural athleticism|1d10|7

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+6|Instinctive observations|1d10|10

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|+3 weapon of thought, refined thought +2, revitalized body|1d10|13

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Focused mind +3|2d6|16

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+7|bonus psionic feat|2d6|16

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+8|+4 weapon of thought, Improved evasion|2d6|21

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+8|Ideal body, refined thought +3,|2d8|26

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+9|Mind of the pure|2d8|31

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|+5 weapon of thought, focused mind +4|2d8|36

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+10|Bonus psionic feat|2d10|36

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|Refined thought +4, sheltered body|2d10|43

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11|+6 weapon of thought, Wisdom of the ages|2d10|50

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|shattered thoughts|4d6|57

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|Focused mind +5, oneness|4d6|64[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the ascetic.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies
Ascetics are proficient with all simple weapons, with their own mind blades, and with light armor.

Power Point/Day
An ascetic has a reserve of power points, from which they can augment themselves or manifest a limited number of powers. Their base daily allotment of power points is given on the above table. In addition, they receives bonus power points per day if they have a high Wisdom score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#tableAbilityModifiersandBonusPowerPoints )). Their race may also provide bonus power points per day, as may certain feats and items. A 1st-level ascetic gains no power points for their class level, but they gains bonus power points (if they are entitled to any). An asceticís manifester level is equal to half their class level (min 1). An ascetic can spend only a total number of points on any class ability that uses power points equal to their manifester level.

Powers Known
An ascetic does not naturally learn any powers, though they may learn them from other sources, such as Expanded Knowledge. At 6th level they may learn 1st level powers with Expanded Knowledge, at 11th level they may learn 2nd level powers, and at 16th level they may learn 3rd level powers. The Difficulty Class for saving throws against an asceticís powers is 10 + the powerís level + the asceticís Wisdom modifier.

AC Bonus (Ex)


An ascetic can add their Wisdom modifier as a bonus to their AC, so long as they are unarmored or wearing light armor, are unencumbered, and are not using a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the ascetic is flat-footed. They lose this bonus when they are immobilized or helpless. Furthermore, if the ascetic is wearing light armor, they may only apply their Wisdom modifier up to the maximum Dexterity bonus of the armor.

Focused Mind (Su)


An ascetic benefits from a calm and focused mind. As long as they are psionically focused, an ascetic gains a +1 insight bonus to attack rolls or to saves, chosen when they become psionically focused. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 20th level.

Weapon of Thought (Su)


As a move action, an ascetic can create a semisolid weapon composed of psychic energy distilled from their own mind. The weapon is a light melee weapon and can have the rough appearance of any light melee weapon, from a short sword to spiked gauntlets, but always deals base damage given on the table above. An ascetic can choose if their weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage when they form it, as appropriate for the form it takes. The wielder of a weapon of thought gains the usual benefits to their attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus.

The weapon can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, an ascetic can simply create another on their next move action. The moment they relinquishes their grip on their weapon, it dissipates (unless they intend to throw it; see below). A weapon of thought is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

An ascetic can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the weapon of thought just as if it were a normal weapon. They can also choose weapon of thought for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Focus. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a weapon of thought. An ascetic can always use Weapon Finesse with their weapon of thought, regardless of what augments may be applied to it (see Shaped Thoughts below).

An asceticís weapon of thought improves as the character gains more class levels. At 3rd level and every three levels thereafter, the weapon of thought gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls (+2 at 6th level, +3 at 9th level, +4 at 12th level, +5 at 15th level, and +6 at 18th level).

Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), an ascetic can attempt to sustain their weapon of thought by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, the ascetic maintains their weapon of thought for a number of rounds equal to their class level before they need to make another check. On failed save, the weapon of thought vanishes. As a move action on their turn, the ascetic can attempt a new Will save to rematerialize their weapon of thought while they remain within the psionics negating effect.

Swift Body (Su)


At 2nd level, an ascetic can augment their speed, focusing their mind on the movement of their legs and placement of their feet. As a swift action, they may spend power points to gain an enhancement bonus to their land speed equal to 10 ft. per power point spent, for a number of minutes equal to their Wisdom modifier. They may add 4 power points to the cost of this ability to increase the duration to 24 hours.

Shaped Thought (Su)


At 2nd level, an ascetic can mold their weapon of thought into unique or specific shapes, granting it additional properties. When they form their weapon of thought they may spend power points to augment it as seen on the table below. These augments persist until the ascetic rests for 8 hours or changes the augments.

Table: Shaped Thought Augments[b]Augment|
[b]PP Cost

19-20 critical threat range|
1

18-20 critical threat range|
2

x3 critical damage1|
1

x4 critical damage1|
2

It grants a +6 bonus to Disarm attempts|
1

It grants a +2 bonus to Sunder attempts|
1

It grants a +2 bonus to Trip attempts|
1

It gains reach|
1

It gains reach, and can be used against adjacent foes (like spiked chain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#chainSpiked)).|
2

It is treated as if it is made of adamantine|
3

It is treated as if it is made of alchemical silver|
2

It is treated as if it is made of cold iron|
2

It becomes a thrown weapon with a range increment of 10 ft. The weapon of thought does not dissipate until after the attack is resolved.|
1

It becomes a thrown weapon with a range increment of 30 ft. The weapon of thought does not dissipate until after the attack is resolved.|
2

It splits into two identical light melee weapons, one wielded in each hand.|
3

You can make trip attacks with the weapon of thought. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon of thought to avoid being tripped.|
3

You can use the weapon of thought as a two-handed weapon.|
3

1. This augment costs twice the PP if applied to a 19-20 threat weapon, or three times the PP if applied to a 18-20 threat weapon.

Evasion (Ex)


At 3rd level or higher if an ascetic makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, they instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if an ascetic is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless ascetic does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Body of the Pure (Ex)


At 4th level, an asceticís body is an immaculate temple, free of stain or corruption. As an immediate action, they may cleanse their body by expending their psionic focus to end the effects of any one disease or poison, or nauseated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#nauseated), sickened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#sickened), or stunned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned) condition they has been inflicted with. They may use this ability as they are exposed to the condition, disease, or poison to automatically negate it.

Alternatively, they may expend their psionic focus as a standard action to grant a touched creature a save against one of the mentioned conditions, a disease, or a poison they are afflicted with with a morale bonus equal to half the asceticís Wisdom modifier.

Practiced Draw (Su)


At 4th level, an ascetic becomes able to materialize their weapon of thought as a free action instead of a move action. They can make only one attempt to materialize the weapon of thought per round, however.

Refined Thought (Su)


At 5th level, an ascetic is able to focus their their thoughts in more concentrated and varied ways, creating unique effects with their weapons of thought. When an ascetic creates a weapon of thought, they may add any weapon special ability to it that has an enhancement bonus of +1 and for which their weapon of thought meets the requirements.

At every four levels beyond 5th (9th, 13th, and 17th), the value of the enhancement an ascetic can add to their weapon improves to +2, +3, and +4, respectively. An ascetic can choose any combination of weapon special abilities that does not exceed the total allowed by the asceticís level.

For every additional 2 power points an ascetic spends when forming their weapon of thought, the total weapon special ability bonus is increased by +1.

Resilient Body (Su)


At 5th level, an ascetic can toughen their skin and muscles, becoming extremely resistant to damage. As a swift action they may augment their body by spending a number of power points and gaining damage reduction/-- equal to twice the power points spent for a number of minutes equal to their Wisdom modifier.

They may add 2 power points to the cost of this ability to grant a number of touched creatures up to the asceticís Wisdom modifier damage reduction/-- equal to twice the power points spent (not including the 2 spent to activate this), for a number of rounds equal to the asceticís Wisdom modifier instead.

Bonus Psionic Feat


At 6th level, and again at 11th level and 16th level, an ascetic unlocks a hidden ability of the mind. They gain a [Psionic] feat as a bonus feat. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat.

Natural Athleticism (Ex)


At 7th level, as ascetic becomes perfectly in tune with their body, allowing them to perform tasks and stunts with ease. They gains an insight bonus equal to their Wisdom modifier to all Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution based checks and skills.

They may expend their psionic focus as a move action to suppress being fatigued (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued) or exhausted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted) for a number of rounds equal to their Wisdom modifier.

Instinctive Observations (Ex)


At 8th level, an ascetic is extremely in tune with their senses and their surroundings. They gain blindsight out to 5 ft. per class level. They may expend their psionic focus as a standard action to grant a number of touched creatures up to the asceticís Wisdom modifier blindsense out to 30 ft. for a number of rounds equal to the asceticís Wisdom modifier.

Revitalized Body (Su)


At 9th level, an asceticís body can quickly recover from brutal woulds and terrible harm. As a swift action they may augment their body, gaining fast healing equal to the number of power points spent for a number of minutes equal to their Wisdom modifier.

They may add 2 power points to the cost of this ability to grant a number of touched creatures up to the asceticís Wisdom modifier fast healing equal to the power points spent (not including the 2 spent to activate this), for a number of rounds equal to the asceticís Wisdom modifier instead.

Improved Evasion (Ex)


At 12th level, an asceticís evasion ability improves. They still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth they takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless ascetic does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Ideal Body (Su)


At 13th level, an ascetic can imbue their body with incredible strength, agility, and endurance for short bursts. As a swift action they may augment their body, gaining an enhancement bonus to either their strength, dexterity, or constitution score equal to the power points spent for a number of minutes equal to their Wisdom modifier. They may add 4 power points to the cost of this ability to increase the duration to 24 hours.

They may add 2 power points to the cost of this ability to grant a number of touched creatures up to the asceticís Wisdom modifier an enhancement bonus to either their strength, dexterity, or constitution score equal to the power points spent (not including the 2 spent to activate this), for a number of rounds equal to the asceticís Wisdom modifier instead.

Mind of the Pure (Ex)


At 14th level, an asceticís mind is as inviolate as their body. As an immediate action, they may purge their mind of any foreign influence by expending their psionic focus to end the effects of any one mind-affecting effect they are under. They may use this ability as they are exposed to the mind-affecting effect to automatically negate it.

Alternatively, they may expend their psionic focus as a standard action to grant a touched creature a save against a mind-affecting effect they are under with a morale bonus equal to half the asceticís Wisdom modifier.

Sheltered Body (Su)


At 17th level, an ascetic comes to understand fundamental workings of the world of the mind, and can defend against otherworldly assaults. They gain power resistance equal to 10 + their class level. As a swift action they may augment this resistance by spending a number of power points increasing their spell resistance by the number of power points spent for a number of minutes equal to their Wisdom modifier.

They may add 2 power points to the cost of this ability to grant a number of touched creatures up to the asceticís Wisdom modifier power resistance equal to 5 + the asceticís class level + the number of power points spent (not including the 2 spent to activate this), for a number of rounds equal to the asceticís Wisdom modifier instead.

Wisdom of the Ages (Ex)


At 18th level, an ascetic gained an eternal wisdom and understanding of the most basic nature of things. They gains telepathy out to 100 ft. They may expend their psionic focus as an immediate action when targeted by an effect that requires a will save to turn that effect back on the original caster.

Shattered Thoughts (Su)


At 19th level, an ascetic can splinter their weapon of thought and assault the minds of all enemies near to them. He sends the shards of he weapon out in a great burst, guiding them with his mind. At the same time he focuses upon each enemies thoughts and launches a debilitating psychic assault. As a full-round action, they may splinter their weapon of thought into thousands of shards and scatter them through the wind towards their enemies by expending their psionic focus. Every enemy within range of the asceticís telepathy takes damage as if they were hit by the asceticís weapon of thought, including any weapon effects that may apply. If the damaged creatures passes a Reflex save (DC equal to class level + Wis modifier) they only take half damage. Each non-mindless enemy within range is dazed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazed) for 1 round unless they succeed on a Fortitude save and is confused (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#confused) for 2 rounds unless they succeed on a Will save.

If a creature has Evasion or any other effect that allows them to avoid or reduce the damage or effects they take, it only applies against the corresponding save. They must still make saves for the other two effects and suffer the full effects if they fail those saves.

Oneness


At 20th level, an ascetic has attained a perfect melding of body and mind, ascending to a higher level of consciousness. Their type changes to outsider, but unlike other outsiders, the ascetic can still be brought back from the dead as if they were still a member of their previous creature type. The ascetic gains resistance 20 to all types of energy damage and is permanently under the effects of psionic mind blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindBlankPsionic.htm) and psionic true seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/trueSeeingPsionic.htm). In addition, an ascetic no longer takes penalties to their ability scores for aging and will no longer die of old age. Any such penalties that they have already taken, however, remain in place, and bonuses still accrue.

MammonAzrael
2011-05-17, 06:04 PM
Alternate Class Features


http://i.allday.ru/uploads/posts/2010-04/thumbs/1270382287_227386_1270004299_large.jpg

Penetrating Mind (Su)
Some ascetics focus more on the world of thought, learning find the weak points and soft spots in the minds of others and exploit them.
Level: 1st
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain Focused Mind.
Benefit: As long as an ascetic is psionically focused, their weapon of thought is imbued with a destructive psychic energy. Once per round, their weapon of thought deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to living, nonmindless creatures. Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to penetrating mind damage. At 5th level, and again at 10th, 15th, and 20th level the damaged is increased by 1d8 (2d8 at 5th, 3d8 at 10th, 4d8 at 15th, and 5d8 at 20th).

Mental Scourge (Su)
Most ascetics are content to focus on their own path towards enlightenment and oneness, perfecting their body through discipline and meditation. A few, however, View the body as a weakness that should not be given equal weight. Those that follow this belief have developed a deep understanding of the mind, and can manipulate that knowledge as they wish.
Level: 13th
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain Ideal Body.
Benefit: At 13th level, an ascetic can damage the minds of others with their own thoughts. Once per round when an ascetic deals damage with their weapon of thought, they may augment the damage with their extreme understanding of the mind. For each 3 power points spent on the augment, the damaged creature takes 1 point of Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage. The ascetic chooses which ability is damaged

Racial Substitution Levels

Kalashtar Ascetic
This is inspired by and adapted from the Kalashtar Monk and Soulknife substitution levels.
Kalashtar can make powerful ascetics, their natural connection with psionics making them a force to be feared.
Hit Die: d10

Requirements: To take a kalashtar ascetic substitution level, a character must be a kalashtar about to take their 1st, 2nd, or 7th level of ascetic.

Class Skills: Kalashtar ascetic substitution levels have the class skills of the standard ascetic class, plus Disguise and Knowledge (the planes).

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier (or four times this number at 1st level).

Class Features
All the following are features of the kalashtar asceticís racial substitution levels.

Aligned Mind (Su)


A kalashtar asceticís weapon of thought is imbued with their alignment for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction as long as they are psionically focused. In addition, his weapon of thought deals an extra +2 damage to any creature of an opposing alignment. This bonus increases to +4 at 5th level, +6 and 10th level, +8 at 15th level, and +10 at 20th level.

This substitution feature replaces the standard asceticís Focused Mind ability (they do not receive it at later levels).

Nimble Body (Su)


At 2nd level, a kalashtar ascetic can augment their awareness and reflexes in battle. As a swift action, they may spend power points to gain a dodge bonus to their AC and equal to the number of power points spent. This bonus lasts until they move more than 5 ft. in a single round.

This substitution feature replaces the standard asceticís Swift Body ability.

Natural Athleticism (Ex)


A kalashtar ascetic of 7th level or higher can focus their mind when performing physically demanding tasks, with remarkable results. They gains an insight bonus equal to their Wisdom modifier to all Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution based checks and skills. In addition, they may expend their psionic focus to take 15 on any skill based on Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution.

They may expend their psionic focus as a move action to suppress being fatigued (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued) or exhausted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted) for a number of rounds equal to their Wisdom modifier.

Table: Kalashtar Ascetic Racial Substitution Levels
{table=head]Level|
Base AttackBonus|
Fort[br]Save|
Reflex[br]Save|
Will[br]Save|Special|
WoT[br]Damage|PP/Day

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|AC bonus, aligned mind, weapon of thought|1d6|0

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Quick of mind, shaped thought|1d6|1

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5|+2 weapon of thought, natural athleticism*|1d10|7[/Table]
*Indicates a class feature altered from the standard class. See the text for details.

[b]Xeph Ascetic
Xeph make natural ascetics, already well known for their physical skill and mental focus. Those that walk down this path do so quickly, and with great agility.
Hit Die: d10

Requirements: To take a xeph ascetic substitution level, a character must be a xeph about to take their 1st, 2nd, or 4th level of ascetic.

Class Skills: Xeph ascetic substitution levels have the class skills of the standard ascetic class.

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier (or four times this number at 1st level).

Class Features
All the following are features of the xeph asceticís racial substitution levels.

Accelerated Mind (Su)


A xeph ascetic can act with amazing speed and accuracy while wielding his weapon of thought. As long as you are psionically focused, you may make a single extra attack whenever you perform a full attack with your weapon of thought at your full base attack bonus. If you do, each attack roll you make that round suffers a -2 penalty. At 10th level this penalty is reduced to -1, and at 20th level the penalty disappears.

At 5th level as long as you are psionically focused you may make a single extra attack at your full base attack bonus whenever you perform a standard attack with your Weapon of Thought. If you do each attack roll you make that turn suffers a -2 penalty.

At 15th level when a xeph ascetic gain a bonus attack from this abilitiy they may make one additional attack with their Weapon of Thought at their full base attack bonus.

This substitution feature replaces the standard asceticís Focused Mind ability (they do not receive it at later levels).

Swift Body (Su)


At 2nd level, a xeph ascetic can augment their speed, focusing their mind on the movement of their legs and placement of their feet. They may spend power points to gain an enhancement bonus to their land speed equal to 10 ft. per power point spent, for a number of minutes equal to their Wisdom modifier. For each additional 30 ft. of movement, the distance of their 5 ft. step increases by 5 ft. They may add 4 power points to the cost of this ability to increase the duration to 24 hours.

Body of the Free (Su)


At 4th level, a xeph ascetic is nearly impossible to pin down. They may expend their psionic focus as a swift action to act as if under psionic freedom of movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/freedomofMovementPsionic.htm) for 1 round.

Table: Xeph Ascetic Racial Substitution Levels
{table=head]Level|
Base AttackBonus|
Fort[br]Save|
Reflex[br]Save|
Will[br]Save|Special|
WoT[br]Damage|PP/Day

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|AC bonus, accelerated mind, weapon of thought|1d6|0

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Swift Body*, shaped thought|1d6|1

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Body of the free|1d8|3[/Table]
*Indicates a class feature altered from the standard class. See the text for details.

Epic Ascetic

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Table: Epic Ascetic
Level|Special|[b]
WoT[br]Damage

21st|+7 Weapon of Thought, Bonus Psionic Feat, Refined Thought +5|
4d6

22nd|Eternal Draw|
4d8

23rd||
4d8

24th|+8 Weapon of Thought|
4d8

25th|Focused Mind +6, Refined Thought +6|
4d10

26th|Bonus Psionic Feat|
4d10

27th|+9 Weapon of Thought|
4d10

28th||
8d6

29th|Refined Thought +7|
8d6

30th|+10 Weapon of Thought, Focused Mind +7|
8d6

Powers
The epic asceticís manifester level is equal to half his class level. The epic asceticís base power points do not increase after 20th level.

Weapon of Thought (Su)


The epic asceticís weapon of thoughtís enhancement bonus increases by +1 at 21st level and every three levels thereafter. Its base damage continues to increase at 22nd level and every three levels thereafter.

Bonus Psionic Feat


The epic ascetic gains a bonus psionic feat at 21st level and every five levels thereafter.

Refined Thought (Su)


The value of the enhancement an epic ascetic can add to their weapon improves by +1 at 21st level and every four levels thereafter.

Eternal Draw (Su)


At 22nd level, an epic ascetic can never be caught without their weapon of thought. They can materialize the weapon of thought as an immediate action, even if they are caught surprised or flat-footed. They can now make any number of attempts to materialize the weapon of thought per round.

Focused Mind (Su)


The bonus granted by an epic asceticís focused mind increases by +1 at 25th level and every 5 levels thereafter.


Immunity to nonlethal damage
Unnamed ideal body bonus
Immunity to crits, massive damage

Class-based Feats

Alert Mind [Psionic]
When your mind is focused you become extremely alert to dangers that surround you.
Prerequisites: Focused Mind class feature
Benefits: When you become psionically focused, you may choose to gain a deflection bonus to your armor class equal to your focused mind bonus instead of a bonus to your attack rolls or saves.

Aligned Thoughts [Psionic]
Your weapon of thought is influenced by your moral and philosophical outlook, becoming an even greater expression of your mind.
Prerequisites: +1 weapon of thought
Benefits: Your weapon of thought is considered to be of your alignments for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Whenever you are psioncally focused and deal damage to a living, nonmindless creature with an opposing alignment with your weapon of thought, you deal an extra 1d8 damage. This bonus damage does not apply to ability damage. Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to this extra damage.

Bolts of Thought
You can hurl your weapon of thought as bolts of pure psionic energy.
Prerequisites: +6 base attack bonus, shaped thought class feature
Benefit: Whenever your weapon of thought is a thrown weapon and you throw it as an attack, you may form another weapon of thought that is a thrown weapon as a free action. This allows you to make iterative attacks with your weapon of thought while throwing it.

Clear Thoughts
The weapon that you form with your mind resonates with the clarity of your thoughts.
Prerequisites: Refined thoughts +2 class feature
Benefit: Select a single weapon enhancement at least 1 level lower than the highest level enhancement you can apply to your weapon of thought. That weapon enhancement is now considered to be one lower (to a minimum of +0) when applied to your weapon of thought.

Flickering Thoughts [Psionic]
Your thoughts dance, causing the weapon of thought you wield to flicker in and out of existence, becoming incredibly hard to predict.
Prerquisites: Dex 13, practiced draw
Benefit: You may expend your psionic focus to cause your weapon of thought to flicker and jump in and out of existence. Creatures are considered flat-footed against any attacks made with your weapon of thought until the beginning of your next turn.

Focused Hunter [Psionic]
Your deep knowledge of certain creatures allows you to hunt them as prey with unparalleled focus and skill.
Prerquisites: Favored enemy, focused mind, weapon of thought
Benefit: Your ascetic levels and ranger levels stack for the purposes of determining your favored enemies, the bonus from focused mind (nut only against favored enemies), and the damage and enhancement bonus of your weapon of thought. As long as you are psionically focused, your weapon of thought has the Bane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#bane) property for each of your favored enemies, which does not count towards your maximum refined thoughts level.

Mastered Thoughts
You have practiced and honed the form of your weapon of thought, summoning it many times.
Prerequisites: +6 BAB, shaped thought class feature
Benefit: Select any number of shaped thought augments with a total PP cost of 3. Any time you create a weapon of thought you may apply these augments to your weapon of thought automatically, without having to spend any PP.

Practiced Ascetic
Constant practice and discipline have honed your mind and sharpened your focus.
Prerequisites: Focused Mind class feature, refined thought class feature
Benefit: Your ascetic level is considered to be 5 higher, up to your total Hit Dice, for the purposes of determining the bonus granted by your focused mind class feature, the damage and enhancement bonus of your weapon of thought, the level of weapon special abilities it can have, and your ascetic manifestor level.

Soul of the Pure [Psionic]
The uncorrupted nature of your soul radiates brightly, denying attempts to snuff out your life.
Prerequisites: Body of the pure, mind of the pure
Benefit: You may expend your psionic focus as an immediate action to end the effects of any one death spell, magical death effect, energy drain, or any negative energy effect you are under. You may use this ability as you are exposed to the effect to automatically negate it.

Alternatively, you may expend your psionic focus as a standard action to grant a touched creature a save against a death spell, magical death effect, energy drain, or any negative energy effect they are under with a morale bonus equal to half your Wisdom modifier.

Subtle Blade [Psionic]
Your understanding of the body and skill with small weapons combine to deadly effect.
Prerequisites: Focused Mind, sneak attack +2d6, weapon of thought
Benefit: Your ascetic levels and rogue levels stack for the purposes of determining your sneak attack damage, the bonus from focused mind, and the damage and enhancement bonus of your weapon of thought. As long as you are psionically focused, the bonus from focused mind now applies to your hide and move silently skills in addition to your attack rolls or saves.

Weapon of Faith
Your faith in your god empowers the weapons you wield against your enemies.
Prerequisites: Smite evil, weapon of thought
Benefit: Your ascetic levels and paladin levels stack for the purposes of determining your number of Smite Evil attempts per day and the damage and enhancement bonus of your weapon of thought. Your weapon of thought always has the Holy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holy) property, which does not count towards your maximum refined thoughts level.

Taking levels in ascetic does not prevent you from taking additional levels in paladin.


Change Log 9/1/2011
9/1/2011
Added the anti-Evasion clause to Shattered Thoughts
WoT now deals 4d6 damage at 19 and 20 instead of 2d12
Natural Athleticism can expend psionic focus to suppress fatigue/exhaustion
Wisdom of the Ages now can expend PF to spell turn Will saves
Immunity to aging moved from WotA to Oneness
Added epic progression, which is still a work in progress

8/30/2011
Changed Fleet of Mind to Swift Body, and Quick of Mind to Nimble Body
Improved Accelerated Mind, reducing penalties and adding an extra attack at 15
The enhancement bonus progression of WoT is now 3/6/9/12/15/18, ending with a +6
Instinctive Observations now auto-grants blindsight, expend focus to grant allies blindsense
Moved Practiced Draw from 6th level to 4th
Sheltered Body now grants Power Resistance instead of Spell Resistance
Clarified Shattered Thoughts, and added a non-mindless requirement to the Will and Fort saves

8/27/2011
Weapon Finesse always can apply to Weapon of Thought, regardless of what augments it has
Fixed racial sub level HDs
Added the Focused Hunter feat

6/2/2011
HD reduced from d12 to d10
The three bonus ďExpanded KnowledgeĒ feats to any [Psionic] feats
Shaped Thought augments now persist until a rest or new augments
Soul of the Pure now more closely reflects Body/Mind of the Pure, instead of replicating death ward
Added a 4 PP/24 hour duration option to Ideal Body - and it will likely be changed more
Sheltered Body now gives a passive SR, which has been increased from 5+L to 10+L
The augment for Refined Thought now costs 2 PP per plus instead of an increasing amount capped at +5
Added the Alert Mind feat
Instinctual Observations can now be augmented to increase the range and change to blindsight
Practiced Ascetic now increases your manifester level

AaaronRZ
2011-05-17, 07:12 PM
I like the concept of the class for sure. I don't recall the HP die of the soulknife, but it seems to me that giving a class full BAB, top HP die and the best saves makes a base class a bit too powerful for standard play. In a powerful campaign I'm sure this class would fit right in and not have to multiclass.

MammonAzrael
2011-05-17, 09:20 PM
The soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm) has a d10 HD.

I should note that this class is not intended to be balanced with the SRD melee classes. It should be on par with the Tome of Battle classes. I agree that giving the class the strongest chassis is powerful...but I don't think it is too unbalanced considering it's company. The chassis is partly a trade off for not having maneuvers (and very few powers).

At first level an ascetic will have a better Will save than a warblade, probably a better attack bonus, roughly equivalent AC, and less dependence on gear. In exchange they do much less damage, and lose the versatility that maneuvers give.

Compared to a swordsage, the ascetic will have a better attack bonus, hit points, and Fort save, in exchange for less skills, and vastly less flexibility from maneuvers. Their AC should be equivalent by 2nd level.

Cyberpilot
2011-05-27, 07:55 AM
Its a much better fighter that a soul-blade or a monk, with much more staying power; I would have seen a combination of the two with less staying power than that. Nonetheless, your reasons for that have been stated, bravo for the class.
A few precisions;
Would you allow mind-blade altering feats with this class to modify the weapon of thought?
Soul of the Pure is purposely different to both Mind/Body of the Pure, is it for balance?
Alpha damage with this build can be really high, what with a 3 level dip in rogue and subtle blade and flickering blade and penetration blade you can do ALOT of damage, was this intended?
Requirement on Xeph ascetic are incomplete, not all levels are noted.

BluesEclipse
2011-05-27, 11:52 AM
Weapon of Faith probably should specify that taking levels in Ascetic does not prevent you from advancing as a Paladin... assuming you wanted people to have that option.

mrcarter11
2011-05-27, 07:55 PM
I'm hardly one of balance, so I can't comment on that. I would however like to say that I like the class quite a bit and hardly find it overpowered. The class is a good combination of two other classes which are both generally deemed very underpowered. My only thought about something being odd, is Shattered Thoughts, I like the ability a lot, but should something be written in, so that you can't stun lock people with it?

jiriku
2011-05-27, 09:03 PM
From a balance perspective, you need a footnote on the Shaped Thought augment table. A x3 or x4 critical modifier doubles or triples in effect as your threat range increases. I'd suggest you asterisk both those lines, and add the following note:

* Increasing the threat range of the WoT to 19-20 doubles the pp cost of any improvements to its critical modifier. Increasing the WoT's threat range to 18-20 triples the cost instead.

Thus, a x3 costs 2 points on a 19-20 weapon and 3 points on an 18-20 weapon. a x4 mod costs 4 points on a 19-20 weapon and 6 points on an 18-20 weapon.

Without this adjustment, it's a no-brainer to always augment to an 18-20/x4 crit mod, as 4 total pp would be a ridiculously cheap cost for this.

Other thoughts on the augments:
The ability to use the weapon of thought as a two-handed weapon should be free. "Light" is a more expensive weapon attribute than "two-handed", not less expensive.
Gaining reach should cost 1 point. For 2 points, you should get reach while also threatening adjacent creatures (as a spiked chain does). You should not be able to convert your weapon to a reach weapon of any kind unless you are wielding it two-handed (leverage, eh).
The ability to trip with the weapon should cost 1 point. For 2, you'd get the ability to trip with a +2 bonus. You don't want to offer the +2 bonus separately, as that may confuse some readers into thinking they don't need to pay for the ability to trip with the weapon.
Add an option to turn the WoT into a thrown weapon with an increment of 10 ft for 1 pp.

byaku rai
2011-05-27, 09:14 PM
... Is it just me, or is this class pretty much a D&D Jedi? O_o

I like the ideas behind it. However, like jiriku above me noted, you should do something about stacking the special abilities from Shaped thought, as otherwise no sane player will think twice about using the handful of pp to get an uberweapon.

The Resilient Body class ability also seems a bit OP, IMO. If I read that right, you can just go poof and get twice your class level (assuming you max it, and why wouldn't you?) in Barbarian DR. If I'm wrong, let me know, because that seems really insane, especially at lower levels.

More comments later when I have more time. Good homebrewing. ^_^

MammonAzrael
2011-05-28, 02:52 AM
Spoilered since there are a lot of replies. :smallsmile:


Its a much better fighter that a soul-blade or a monk, with much more staying power; I would have seen a combination of the two with less staying power than that. Nonetheless, your reasons for that have been stated, bravo for the class.
A few precisions;
Would you allow mind-blade altering feats with this class to modify the weapon of thought?
Soul of the Pure is purposely different to both Mind/Body of the Pure, is it for balance?
Alpha damage with this build can be really high, what with a 3 level dip in rogue and subtle blade and flickering blade and penetration blade you can do ALOT of damage, was this intended?
Requirement on Xeph ascetic are incomplete, not all levels are noted.

I'm not quite sure what you mean with the enhanced staying power. Are you referring to their resilience, or their endurance? They are more resilient, but their abilities are limited. Monk has always been a decidedly defensive class, which I focused on (partly). I feel this is acceptable because defensive abilities are generally weaker and have less overall impact than offensive abilities.


Mind blade/Weapon of thought transparency is up to the DM. given their slightly different mechanics, some feats may require some tweaking, but I'm not aware of any issue with it.
It's for balance and functionality. Balance because it's a feat, so it shouldn't give them the ability to share their new ability. Functionally, a lot of death are instantaneous, but there are other that can be applied multiple times in a round through tough attacks and such. Giving straight protection against those effects, basically gaining death ward when you really need it. Seems like a strong, balanced thing for a feat to do, ya?
The synergy with rogue was intended. Things may need to be toned down, as I didn't do number crunching though.
Nice catch, thanks.



Weapon of Faith probably should specify that taking levels in Ascetic does not prevent you from advancing as a Paladin... assuming you wanted people to have that option.

Good addition. If you're taking a feat to multi-class them, then you should be able to continue on your holy advancement.


I'm hardly one of balance, so I can't comment on that. I would however like to say that I like the class quite a bit and hardly find it overpowered. The class is a good combination of two other classes which are both generally deemed very underpowered. My only thought about something being odd, is Shattered Thoughts, I like the ability a lot, but should something be written in, so that you can't stun lock people with it?

Thanks, I'm glad you like it! As for Shattered Thoughts - by 19th level, your friends have been slinging around 9th level spells for 2 levels. And given that it requires a save each time I wouldn't worry about it too much. But only because you're getting it at such a high level.


From a balance perspective, you need a footnote on the Shaped Thought augment table. A x3 or x4 critical modifier doubles or triples in effect as your threat range increases. I'd suggest you asterisk both those lines, and add the following note:

* Increasing the threat range of the WoT to 19-20 doubles the pp cost of any improvements to its critical modifier. Increasing the WoT's threat range to 18-20 triples the cost instead.

Thus, a x3 costs 2 points on a 19-20 weapon and 3 points on an 18-20 weapon. a x4 mod costs 4 points on a 19-20 weapon and 6 points on an 18-20 weapon.

Without this adjustment, it's a no-brainer to always augment to an 18-20/x4 crit mod, as 4 total pp would be a ridiculously cheap cost for this.

Other thoughts on the augments:
The ability to use the weapon of thought as a two-handed weapon should be free. "Light" is a more expensive weapon attribute than "two-handed", not less expensive.
Gaining reach should cost 1 point. For 2 points, you should get reach while also threatening adjacent creatures (as a spiked chain does). You should not be able to convert your weapon to a reach weapon of any kind unless you are wielding it two-handed (leverage, eh).
The ability to trip with the weapon should cost 1 point. For 2, you'd get the ability to trip with a +2 bonus. You don't want to offer the +2 bonus separately, as that may confuse some readers into thinking they don't need to pay for the ability to trip with the weapon.
Add an option to turn the WoT into a thrown weapon with an increment of 10 ft for 1 pp.


Good point. I thought that the limited manifestor level would be enough, but a 18-20/x4 will likely be the strongest option for 4 PP 95% of the time.
What makes you say that "light" is more expensive that "two-handed?" Two-handed grants several bonuses, most notably Power Attack fun, while "light" lets you weapon finesse? Additionally, having it be light keeps it more connected to mind blade. I'd love to hear your reasoning for this.
Yes, basic reach should only cost 1. I'm so used to threatening reach that I just didn't think of it. :smalltongue: As for having it be two-handed...no leverage is needed. The weapon of thought doesn't have any mass, giving it reach is just extending the blade essentially.
I can see how having the bonus separate could be confusing, but why do you think the ability to trip should only be 1 PP? Tripping (and two-handed weapons) are the two strongest melee strategies, so why should they be the cheapest? That reduces incentive to try other options.
I like the reduced range option.


Excellent points, I'd love to hear your reasonings on the things I asked about.


... Is it just me, or is this class pretty much a D&D Jedi? O_o

I like the ideas behind it. However, like jiriku above me noted, you should do something about stacking the special abilities from Shaped thought, as otherwise no sane player will think twice about using the handful of pp to get an uberweapon.

The Resilient Body class ability also seems a bit OP, IMO. If I read that right, you can just go poof and get twice your class level (assuming you max it, and why wouldn't you?) in Barbarian DR. If I'm wrong, let me know, because that seems really insane, especially at lower levels.

More comments later when I have more time. Good homebrewing. ^_^

Haha...actually when I was first asking for help finding good pictures for the class, jedi came up first.

jiriku was addressed above.

A very important note is that the ascetic's manifestor level is equal to half their class level, not their class level. Huuugely important. Additionally, barbarian DR sucks, as it's just too small for the level's it's gained. And don't forget that you also have an extremely limited pool of PP to fuel Resilient Body, as well as all your other abilities!

Dead_Jester
2011-05-28, 06:20 AM
This is still a very nice class, and it does a great job of fixing both the monk and the soulknife without taping on ToB.

As for balance, I think this fits into low tier 3, as it doesn't have any obvious game breaking mechanics but still suffer from non-caster shortcomings.

Also, I think you could probably increase the amount of pp per day because right now, manifesting your weapon of though (your main ability) requires a 6th of your pp (if you augment it), and you may be forced to reshape it later.

I'd probably make the weapon augments like invested essentia, making it unusable if it's invested in the weapon but letting it be refunded of it dissipates. This should give the class a bit more tactical versatility, and actually allow you to not keep your weapon of though on at all times just to save power.

Finally, you might want to clarify what exactly is entailed by your weapon dissipating. Do you have to reshape it entirely (paying the pp cost) or can you reshape it with the same augments without paying the cost again. I believe the second would make more sense, as the first makes throwing your weapon of though ridiculously expensive (it costs you either 1 or 2 pp per throw, and your getting up to 4 per round).

Cyberpilot
2011-05-28, 04:13 PM
It's for balance and functionality. Balance because it's a feat, so it shouldn't give them the ability to share their new ability. Functionally, a lot of death are instantaneous, but there are other that can be applied multiple times in a round through tough attacks and such. Giving straight protection against those effects, basically gaining death ward when you really need it. Seems like a strong, balanced thing for a feat to do, ya?

Yeah, it would be powerful, but it seems strange to have it not act as the other two, it being a ward and not a reactive removal, and not being transferable to an ally, I liked the idea of having pseudo-immunities that could be used to aid an allies. And I'm not sure it would be that much more powerful, as is, its already a death ward in a feat, albeit not for allies. It isn't built the same as the other two, and it is stronger for the character in its current form, but doesn't synergise into a party as well. At level 15, your cleric would just cast mass death ward, so IMHO, this feat would be better for those Oh **** moments, when you could really use something like this, but the cleric doesn't have it available, because he thought it superfluous. And I think it might just see more use as anti stat drain, at least for allies.

YouLostMe
2011-05-29, 12:12 AM
I'm loving the speed boost. At level 20, pouring all your class-derived points into Fleet of Mind with the standard 30' speed yields a 670' speed, or 2680' per round at a dead sprint. That's 51% of a mile in six seconds (304 mph). The fastest car in the world has been clocked at 267 mph.

Send Ascetics on your reconnaissance missions. Just give them a day to rest.

Seerow
2011-05-29, 12:32 AM
I'm loving the speed boost. At level 20, pouring all your class-derived points into Fleet of Mind with the standard 30' speed yields a 670' speed, or 2680' per round at a dead sprint. That's 51% of a mile in six seconds (304 mph). The fastest car in the world has been clocked at 267 mph.

Send Ascetics on your reconnaissance missions. Just give them a day to rest.

You just broke rule #1 of psionics


An ascetic can spend only a total number of points on any class ability that uses power points equal to their manifester level.

An asceticís manifester level is equal to half their class level (min 1)

So no, a 20th level Ascetic can gain +100' move speed at most, giving them a 130' movement, or 520 per round at a run.

Mind you, that's still 60 miles per hour, and a really impressive foot speed, but not breaking world ground speed records.





Okay, now actual comments on the class:


The Power Points feel very limiting. With 1/2 manifester level and such a low base pool, at 20th level even with 34 wisdom you only have 124 points, so you can manifest basically 12 'level appropriate' powers. I use the term 'level appropriate' lightly, since your powers from advanced learning are all low level and capped at your limited manifester level, and a lot of the class features are weak for their cost (particularly the mind blade, discussed below), though some of the powers are all right.

The enhanced movement, and the removing status effects are fair, and the revitalized body is actually excellent for out of combat healing. Ideal Body seems a little overpriced, if it had a duration as a all day buff it may be worth it, but at a duration measured in minutes it's hard to justify the PP cost when you need to be using those points on other things. I say it needs to be an all day buff because as an enhancement bonus, to use it you're probably overlapping enhancement bonus items. If this saves you money on those items, it can be worth it. Alternatively, making it a different bonus type (such as insight, or perfection) works.

Sheltered Body similarly faces a problem of being too costly for too short a duration to really be worth spending the points when you are so limited on them. You are required to spend 5 points just to have a standard amount of spell resistance, and it will last through just one encounter. I'd much rather just have a passive 10+level spell resistance that a monk gets than have to spend a swift action and 5 pp every encounter. I wouldn't mind having that as a baseline spell resistance, with augmentations that I could spend points on to share it with others temporarily, or augment it further, but as it is now, it's overpriced.

Mind Blade Commentary:
How does the shape mind blade work? Does the mind blade stay that way indefinitely after you shape it, until you want to change it again? Do you have to reshape it every time you summon it? If it's every time you summon it (which the wording seems to imply), well anyone trying to throw their mindblade is ****ed, and any ascetic who wants to fight in more than 1 or 2 encounters a day probably doesn't want to use any other class features for fear of having a gimped weapon.

Also I want to point out with the ML restrictions, your weapon selection is very limited until relatively high levels. You can't even think about getting a spiked chain type weapon until level 6, and you can't get one that can trip until level 12. It seems like these options are overpriced -especially- compared to the really high crit effects. Similarly, you can't dual wield til level 6, another seemingly overpriced option. Also, 3 points just to hold the weapon two handed? Hrm actually I just looked at it again and there is no way to shape your mindblade to be just a 1 handed weapon. It is light by default, so you can either split it into two light weapons, or make it into a two hander.

On the other hand, at high levels some of the combinations just seem funny. At level 20, I can spend 10 PP to have a pair (3 pts) of one handed reach weapons that threaten adjacent (3 pts) with a 18-20x3 (4 pts) crit range.

That whole section just seems ill thought out. Too restrictive early on, too silly later, and some of the things are just wholly nonsensicly priced. Also, being able to change the weapon type for DR should be a separate manifestation, 2-3 PP is fine for bypassing DR, but 2-3 PP and giving up your reach for it is not. You may want to make a separate ability that lets you change the damage type and material type for DR purposes.

Also, Refined Thought seems weak. Consider most people can get a +1 weapon with +9 worth of abilities, and just use greater magic weapon to keep their enhancement bonus up to par. Your base enhancement going up to +5 is basically bonus 3rd level spell, so this is where I would expect the bulk of the power of your blade to come in... and it is very woefully restricted. Like I could see the augment for this ability being changed to +1 enhancement per 2 power points spent and not being broken (as this would get you a +9 weapon by spending 10 power points when combined with your base +4), especially if you're having to spend that every time you manifest your blade (see also the previous complaint about being very limited on PP)

YouLostMe
2011-05-29, 01:08 AM
You just broke rule #1 of psionics...
Oh right. Damn my reading ability... I skimmed and assumed it was the standard text about PP spending on powers.

No longer hilarious :smallfrown:

MammonAzrael
2011-05-29, 05:18 PM
More length-based spoilers!


This is still a very nice class, and it does a great job of fixing both the monk and the soulknife without taping on ToB.

As for balance, I think this fits into low tier 3, as it doesn't have any obvious game breaking mechanics but still suffer from non-caster shortcomings.

Thanks! :smallsmile:


Also, I think you could probably increase the amount of pp per day because right now, manifesting your weapon of though (your main ability) requires a 6th of your pp (if you augment it), and you may be forced to reshape it later.

I'd probably make the weapon augments like invested essentia, making it unusable if it's invested in the weapon but letting it be refunded of it dissipates. This should give the class a bit more tactical versatility, and actually allow you to not keep your weapon of though on at all times just to save power.

Finally, you might want to clarify what exactly is entailed by your weapon dissipating. Do you have to reshape it entirely (paying the pp cost) or can you reshape it with the same augments without paying the cost again. I believe the second would make more sense, as the first makes throwing your weapon of though ridiculously expensive (it costs you either 1 or 2 pp per throw, and your getting up to 4 per round).

You don't have to augment the WoT every time you manifest it. Though I admit I may have focused a bit too much on resource management with their PP. I like the idea of returning PP, though I think that may give a little more versatility than I wanted in the WoT, I'll have to think on it. As for a dissipated weapon - if it dissipates, then you have to make a new one. As written, you'd have to pay for new augments. Very true that that is terrible for thrown weapons. I'll change it so that once you augment your weapon of thought, it retains those augments until you change it or take an extended rest.


Yeah, it would be powerful, but it seems strange to have it not act as the other two, it being a ward and not a reactive removal, and not being transferable to an ally, I liked the idea of having pseudo-immunities that could be used to aid an allies. And I'm not sure it would be that much more powerful, as is, its already a death ward in a feat, albeit not for allies. It isn't built the same as the other two, and it is stronger for the character in its current form, but doesn't synergise into a party as well. At level 15, your cleric would just cast mass death ward, so IMHO, this feat would be better for those Oh **** moments, when you could really use something like this, but the cleric doesn't have it available, because he thought it superfluous. And I think it might just see more use as anti stat drain, at least for allies.

Fair enough. What do you think about this?


Soul of the Pure [Psionic]
The uncorrupted nature of your soul radiates brightly, denying attempts to snuff out your life.
Prerequisites: Body of the pure, mind of the pure
Benefit: You may expend your psionic focus as an immediate action to end the effects of any one death spell, magical death effect, energy drain, or any negative energy effect you are under. You may use this ability as you are exposed to the effect to automatically negate it.

Alternatively, you may expend your psionic focus as a standard action to grant a touched creature a save against a death spell, magical death effect, energy drain, or any negative energy effect they are under with a morale bonus equal to half your Wisdom modifier.

This most closely mirrors the two class abilities. It looks solid, though I'm wondering if it'd be better if it instead just granted immunity to all those effect for a round or so, instead of just a single attack. Thoughts?


The Power Points feel very limiting. With 1/2 manifester level and such a low base pool, at 20th level even with 34 wisdom you only have 124 points, so you can manifest basically 12 'level appropriate' powers. I use the term 'level appropriate' lightly, since your powers from advanced learning are all low level and capped at your limited manifester level, and a lot of the class features are weak for their cost (particularly the mind blade, discussed below), though some of the powers are all right.

The primary reason for such a low PP count is because I do not want to eclipse the psychic warrior. The ascetic effectively has a spell progression of:

Level|1st|2nd|3rd|4th
1|0|--|--|--
2|1|--|--|--
3|2|--|--|--
4|3|--|--|--
5|4|--|--|--
6|4|0|--|--
7|4|1|--|--
8|4|2|--|--
9|4|3|--|--
10|4|4||--|--
11|4|4|0|--
12|4|4|1|--
13|4|4|2|--
14|4|4|3|--
15|4|4|4|--
16|4|4|4|0
17|4|4|4|1
18|4|4|4|2
19|4|4|4|3
20|4|4|4|4

With only three built-in powers, most of the PP will likely be spent on the various class abilities. Without a huge pool, players won't be as inclined to just pour the maximum amount of PP into every use. Manifesting powers really isn't the focus of the class like it is with the psychic warrior. The half manifestor level is reminiscent of the hexblade, as is the class in a way - the spellcasting/psionics play a supporting role, and are not intended to be the main focus. I expect that most powers taken with the ascetic will be for their utility.

All that said, these numbers simply need testing. They may indeed be a bit too low.


The enhanced movement, and the removing status effects are fair, and the revitalized body is actually excellent for out of combat healing. Ideal Body seems a little overpriced, if it had a duration as a all day buff it may be worth it, but at a duration measured in minutes it's hard to justify the PP cost when you need to be using those points on other things. I say it needs to be an all day buff because as an enhancement bonus, to use it you're probably overlapping enhancement bonus items. If this saves you money on those items, it can be worth it. Alternatively, making it a different bonus type (such as insight, or perfection) works.

Ideal Body is a bit pricey, but it is based off the 2nd level spells, and also to mirror the duration of all the other X Body abilities. Additionally, the various X Body abilities were intended to last only for a single encounter, making the swift action more relevant, giving the class plenty to do with that action each round, and turning it into a longer lasting buff negates that. Given that you acquire it at a point where others are getting 7th level spells, I could see extending the duration though. Do note, though, that it can grant up to a +10 enhancement bonus, which is something you usually can't get until epic. I could see expanding the duration to either Wis Mod/hours or 24 hours...probably the former just for keeping it similar to the other abilities.

As for changing the bonus type...the original thought was to overlap with the standard items, and it was the bonus type that just made the most sense. I shall think on this.


Sheltered Body similarly faces a problem of being too costly for too short a duration to really be worth spending the points when you are so limited on them. You are required to spend 5 points just to have a standard amount of spell resistance, and it will last through just one encounter. I'd much rather just have a passive 10+level spell resistance that a monk gets than have to spend a swift action and 5 pp every encounter. I wouldn't mind having that as a baseline spell resistance, with augmentations that I could spend points on to share it with others temporarily, or augment it further, but as it is now, it's overpriced.

Looking over it, it is overpriced, especially when others are getting 9th level maneuvers. Bumping it up to 10 + ascetic level is easy enough. The same concern with turning it into a long-lasting buff applies to Ideal Body...

Hmm...maybe I grant the 10 + ascetic level (plus potential PP augments) as a passive bonus, with a swift action to augment or to cast/reflect a spell negated by that spell resistance. And still having the party-sharing feature.


How does the shape mind blade work? Does the mind blade stay that way indefinitely after you shape it, until you want to change it again? Do you have to reshape it every time you summon it? If it's every time you summon it (which the wording seems to imply), well anyone trying to throw their mindblade is ****ed, and any ascetic who wants to fight in more than 1 or 2 encounters a day probably doesn't want to use any other class features for fear of having a gimped weapon.

I addressed this above with Dead_Jester.


Also I want to point out with the ML restrictions, your weapon selection is very limited until relatively high levels. You can't even think about getting a spiked chain type weapon until level 6, and you can't get one that can trip until level 12. It seems like these options are overpriced -especially- compared to the really high crit effects. Similarly, you can't dual wield til level 6, another seemingly overpriced option. Also, 3 points just to hold the weapon two handed? Hrm actually I just looked at it again and there is no way to shape your mindblade to be just a 1 handed weapon. It is light by default, so you can either split it into two light weapons, or make it into a two hander.

Well there does need to be some restriction for such versatility is a single weapon, especially since it'll be free and you can change it on the fly. Why should you get a spiked chain-esque weapon early for free, when others need to spend a feat for it? Now, these numbers are very rough, but I tried to price them based on generally on just how good they are.

Two-handed and dual-wielding are the two most powerful melee options, and thus the most expensive, with tripping being the other strong option. Given that they are the most powerful options, it made sense for them to be the most expensive. And with the higher price, it places the ascetic into an "unarmed" style of fighting, with the option of other styles if you want to focus on them.


On the other hand, at high levels some of the combinations just seem funny. At level 20, I can spend 10 PP to have a pair (3 pts) of one handed reach weapons that threaten adjacent (3 pts) with a 18-20x3 (4 pts) crit range.

18-20/x3 costs 5 PP. :smalltongue: Otherwise...so? You're 20th level, constructing a weapon out of pure thought. Why can't you have two extra-long dangerous weapons? Like a long beam of energy coming out of each hand that can stretch up to 10 ft.


That whole section just seems ill thought out. Too restrictive early on, too silly later, and some of the things are just wholly nonsensicly priced. Also, being able to change the weapon type for DR should be a separate manifestation, 2-3 PP is fine for bypassing DR, but 2-3 PP and giving up your reach for it is not. You may want to make a separate ability that lets you change the damage type and material type for DR purposes.

Shaped Thought is intended to give you options, when you want/need them, not to give you access to any type or style of weapon whenever you want without any cost. I honestly don't see the silliness in later levels, because it is not a material weapon, so it is not constrained by physics.

The DR is a good point, but at the same time, it's changing your WoT, which is exactly what Shaped Thought does. Reach isn't integral to the class; it may be integral to certain builds, but ascetics should function just fine without it. And if your build focuses on reach and you also really need to overcome some DR, then you can use Refined Thought to gain the metalline property. Which is more options than other classes have.


Also, Refined Thought seems weak. Consider most people can get a +1 weapon with +9 worth of abilities, and just use greater magic weapon to keep their enhancement bonus up to par. Your base enhancement going up to +5 is basically bonus 3rd level spell, so this is where I would expect the bulk of the power of your blade to come in... and it is very woefully restricted. Like I could see the augment for this ability being changed to +1 enhancement per 2 power points spent and not being broken (as this would get you a +9 weapon by spending 10 power points when combined with your base +4), especially if you're having to spend that every time you manifest your blade (see also the previous complaint about being very limited on PP)

I disagree with your base premise. I think most people have more than a single + on their weapons, while optimizers, ones that also have a cleric in the party, only go with the +1 weapons. Note that you can change the abilities gained every time you manifest your WoT, which you can do at-will. I could see changing the augment pricing (and max level), but I think you're looking at the ability purely from an optimization angle and finding it lacking, missing the versatility it offers, allowing you to have nearly any weapon you could want whenever you wanted it, and then changing it the very next round if needed.

Cyberpilot
2011-05-29, 07:22 PM
More length-based spoilers!



Soul of the Pure [Psionic]
The uncorrupted nature of your soul radiates brightly, denying attempts to snuff out your life.
Prerequisites: Body of the pure, mind of the pure
Benefit: You may expend your psionic focus as an immediate action to end the effects of any one death spell, magical death effect, energy drain, or any negative energy effect you are under. You may use this ability as you are exposed to the effect to automatically negate it.

Alternatively, you may expend your psionic focus as a standard action to grant a touched creature a save against a death spell, magical death effect, energy drain, or any negative energy effect they are under with a morale bonus equal to half your Wisdom modifier.

This most closely mirrors the two class abilities. It looks solid, though I'm wondering if it'd be better if it instead just granted immunity to all those effect for a round or so, instead of just a single attack. Thoughts?

It isn't quite as powerful, but is more in line with what the class tends to be able to do with its other capacities, I have a question about the pure trio, one can attempt the save and then expend psionic focus to save ones-self?

If this would really be too weak, you could always have it give the ward for x time, but I do feel the party synergy is something you should keep, its fun and helpful. Then again how often is an ascetic going to fail their save against these effects, considering their high saves?

Pertaining to revitalized body, would regeneration be too powerful, or superfluous or just useless?

MammonAzrael
2011-05-29, 08:40 PM
It isn't quite as powerful, but is more in line with what the class tends to be able to do with its other capacities, I have a question about the pure trio, one can attempt the save and then expend psionic focus to save ones-self?

If this would really be too weak, you could always have it give the ward for x time, but I do feel the party synergy is something you should keep, its fun and helpful. Then again how often is an ascetic going to fail their save against these effects, considering their high saves?

Pertaining to revitalized body, would regeneration be too powerful, or superfluous or just useless?

If you chose not to use the X of the Pure ability, then you'll be affected by the effect (assuming you fail the save). If that effect does not prevent you from using your X of the Pure, then you can try for another save. So you'll be under the effect of that effect. Make sense?

As for Revitalizing Body, regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration) would not be an ideal healing choice. It only heals non-lethal damage, so it won't heal damage you've already taken. Fast healing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fastHealing) heals normal damage.

Denomar
2011-06-01, 08:36 PM
Ok. Mindblade as a monk unarmed progression is a good idea and one that I strangely haven't seen done before.

Shaped Thought is good and flavorful, but I'm two minds on how you've implemented it. On the one hand I like the assortment of abilities that allow you to customize the character with only a few real clear "best" choices. But with the "When they form their weapon of thought" I feel that spending the power points any time the ascetic forms the weapon is punitive. I would have the wielder prepare his modification in the morning much like a wizard chooses spells.

Expanded knowledge in this case I'm not fond of because to me it looks like an excuse to pick up psionic lions charge and expansion. I'm even Less fond of the interaction you've given it with the feat because you're more or less telling the player that they have to take expanded knowledge. I think that since you have enough abilities to burn your power points on (especially if you need to spend them any time you form your weapon for its special abilities) that expanded knowledge and other powers don't actually add that much to the class and in fact aren't really all that necessary.

Keep in mind there's very little to compare here. This has one of the most powerful chassis I've ever seen, All Good Saves, Full BAB, D12 hit die, a free +5 weapon (potentially higher depending on investiture) that does a base of 2d12 damage, and reasonable skill point selection. Out of the box it has a higher attack modifier than essentially anyone (+20 class, +str, +5 insight, +5 weapon minimum). That in and of itself is fairly significant.

In short, while I don't think the class is necessarily Balanced, I think its an intriguing start. My suggestion is cut the expanded knowledge entirely, and lower the hit die at least.

Zale
2011-06-01, 09:17 PM
I rather like this class.

If I ever manage to find a game, I think I'll try it, just to see how it goes..


As for something actually relevant, might I suggest something for the quotes.

"The mind is everything. What you think you become." ~Buddha

Seem appropriate to the whole mental theme, as well as the way they enhance the physical with the mental.

"The energy of the mind is the essence of life." ~Aristotle

Also a sort of mental theme.

MammonAzrael
2011-06-01, 09:53 PM
Ok. Mindblade as a monk unarmed progression is a good idea and one that I strangely haven't seen done before.

Shaped Thought is good and flavorful, but I'm two minds on how you've implemented it. On the one hand I like the assortment of abilities that allow you to customize the character with only a few real clear "best" choices. But with the "When they form their weapon of thought" I feel that spending the power points any time the ascetic forms the weapon is punitive. I would have the wielder prepare his modification in the morning much like a wizard chooses spells.

Now that I think about it, I don't believe I've seen that combination either...huh. Glad you like it.

I don't know if you read through the rest of the thread, but Shaped Thought is currently under revision. The main change will be that when you augment your WoT, the augments will persist through dissipation until you either change the augments or take an extended rest. Having them be prepped like a wizard in an interesting thought, but I think I like the versatility of changing it at will.


Expanded knowledge in this case I'm not fond of because to me it looks like an excuse to pick up psionic lions charge and expansion. I'm even Less fond of the interaction you've given it with the feat because you're more or less telling the player that they have to take expanded knowledge. I think that since you have enough abilities to burn your power points on (especially if you need to spend them any time you form your weapon for its special abilities) that expanded knowledge and other powers don't actually add that much to the class and in fact aren't really all that necessary.

I'm really unsure what you're getting at here. The Expanded Knowledge feats are certainly best spent on powers that don't need to be augmented, but there are a decent number of options. And you get it three times for free...the player only needs to take it again if he really wants. The reason I did it that way is because otherwise there would be a strang rules void. There are no official psionic classes that do not gain powers, and this was the way I dealt with that.

The idea was that the few powers would add some built-in customization to the class, since otherwise most ascetics would look a lot alike.


Keep in mind there's very little to compare here. This has one of the most powerful chassis I've ever seen, All Good Saves, Full BAB, D12 hit die, a free +5 weapon (potentially higher depending on investiture) that does a base of 2d12 damage, and reasonable skill point selection. Out of the box it has a higher attack modifier than essentially anyone (+20 class, +str, +5 insight, +5 weapon minimum). That in and of itself is fairly significant.

In short, while I don't think the class is necessarily Balanced, I think its an intriguing start. My suggestion is cut the expanded knowledge entirely, and lower the hit die at least.

Indeed, the super-chassis was the basic start point of the class. I covered it earlier in the thread, but even with the chassis it has now, it strikes me as fairly equivalent to what you can gain through ToB. You get a couple higher numbers in exchange for the versatility that maneuvers offer.

One thing that was pointed out earlier was that while you do get a +5 weapon...that means you can't have a +1/+9 ability weapon that gets a greater magic weapon. I could see changing Focused Mind...maybe to damage, and perhaps reducing the save progression to medium for all three saves, and have focused mind "increase" them to good saves...hmm...


I rather like this class.

If I ever manage to find a game, I think I'll try it, just to see how it goes..


As for something actually relevant, might I suggest something for the quotes.

"The mind is everything. What you think you become." ~Buddha

Seem appropriate to the whole mental theme, as well as the way they enhance the physical with the mental.

"The energy of the mind is the essence of life." ~Aristotle

Also a sort of mental theme.

I'm glad you like the class, thanks! :smallsmile: If you do wind up playing it, be sure to let me know how it goes!

I'm digging the Buddha quote, and I think I'll use it! :smallbiggrin:

Denomar
2011-06-01, 10:30 PM
It's a variant monk. I'm alright with the good save progression. I don't see any justification for the class having a d12 hit die beyond "well the warblade has it"

Honestly I'm alright with it having fewer hitdice because it sounds like an introspective class. They practice mental fortitude rather than getting hit in the face with a tree trunk.

Melayl
2011-06-01, 10:51 PM
I think I like it. I do agree that the d12 HD is pushing it. With the DR and Fast Healing options, you're already pretty darn resilient. If you want more resilience, perhaps a feat or ACF that allows you to expend your focus to gain a deflection AC bonus for a certain duration. Perhaps augmentable with PP.

Or allow certain class levels or abilities to double as psionic feats for the purposes of Psionic Body or something.

I also like the thought of "investing" PP into your WoT and regaining them when you unshape it. It seems to have a better "feel" to me, and grants more versatility. I'd actually be minded to do that with Fleet of Mind and Resilient Body as well...

Have you considered making Instinctive Observations augmentable?

This may just be my opinion, but 18th level is a long wait for telepathy for a class so focused on the mind. I don't have any suggestions thus far for what level to start it at, or how to implement it, but it seems to me like it should.

Overall, another good great job.

Denomar
2011-06-02, 05:06 AM
Ok, further thoughts.

Natural Athleticism and Ideal Body provide different bonuses, but I feel like they're really doing the same thing. I don't think both are necessary, removing one of them means you still won't have dead levels which was something you were obviously trying to avoid. Of the two I believe Natural Athleticism is a nicer fit. It encourages skill use while Ideal Body just tacks on extra damage or hitpoints which this class should have plenty of.

On a more mundane note, I'm now doubly sure that I don't think a D12 HD is healthy for this class. Especially in conjunction with Resilient Body. Is there an alternative to damage reduction you can think of which would be appropriate? My suggestion would be the feat Psionic Body for free. It encourages the player to take psionic feats without forcing them too and provides additional hitpoints but from a psionic source.

I don't know if this has been brought up yet but Refined Thought is giving an illusion of choice. It is totally arbitrary that the character can spend points to increase the bonus that it provides because the character will Always Do So. It's much like a rogue who has to spend a luck point to add all his sneak attack damage to a target. The player of an ascetic at this point just marks off the number of points that Refined Thought would require to increase the bonus per day because as its written there's absolutely no reason whatsoever that one would ever not use this cost. Because it grows more expensive as the character levels up it falls into the very rare catagory of abilities that actually punish you for gaining levels. A trait that's currently only shared by one other ability in D&D: Truenaming.

Now that those horrifyingly awful statements are out of the way. A question. How do levels in this class interact with levels in other psionic classes? Does it add to manifester level in some fashion? In turn would multiclassing with psion raises the Ascetic's manifester level. Could a psion's power points be used with Ascetic abilities etc.

MammonAzrael
2011-06-02, 08:54 PM
It's a variant monk. I'm alright with the good save progression. I don't see any justification for the class having a d12 hit die beyond "well the warblade has it"

Honestly I'm alright with it having fewer hitdice because it sounds like an introspective class. They practice mental fortitude rather than getting hit in the face with a tree trunk.

The initial justification wasn't so much "The warblade has it," but rather because I really liked the idea of a class with the best possible chassis (ignoring skill points). Additionally, they're meant to be be front-line combatants, and the thought was that the extremely high HD would give them more leeway in deciding where they wanted their highest stats.

All that said, your and Melayl's points are well taken. The soulknife has a d10, while the monk is sitting with a d8. I will reduce the HD, though I'm not sure to which yet.


Ok, further thoughts.

Natural Athleticism and Ideal Body provide different bonuses, but I feel like they're really doing the same thing. I don't think both are necessary, removing one of them means you still won't have dead levels which was something you were obviously trying to avoid. Of the two I believe Natural Athleticism is a nicer fit. It encourages skill use while Ideal Body just tacks on extra damage or hitpoints which this class should have plenty of.

Hmm...They do have a lot of similar applications. That said, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with getting rid of Ideal Body. Part of that reason is for the symytry of the four "X Body" abilities, and part of it is that I feel like a level where all you gain is nearly a dead level itself.

Though with the number of comments regarding it, something needs to change with Ideal Body. And I really like the idea of being able to augment your body. I need to take a step back from the 2nd level spells that inspired it and rethink it.


On a more mundane note, I'm now doubly sure that I don't think a D12 HD is healthy for this class. Especially in conjunction with Resilient Body. Is there an alternative to damage reduction you can think of which would be appropriate? My suggestion would be the feat Psionic Body for free. It encourages the player to take psionic feats without forcing them too and provides additional hitpoints but from a psionic source.

As noted above, the HD is going to be changed. The suggestion of psionic body is very interesting, though I certainly don't think it's even close to an equivalent to replace Resilient Body.

Hmm...perhaps instead of the three free Expanded Knowledge feats you gain three free [Psionic] feats...


I don't know if this has been brought up yet but Refined Thought is giving an illusion of choice. It is totally arbitrary that the character can spend points to increase the bonus that it provides because the character will Always Do So. It's much like a rogue who has to spend a luck point to add all his sneak attack damage to a target. The player of an ascetic at this point just marks off the number of points that Refined Thought would require to increase the bonus per day because as its written there's absolutely no reason whatsoever that one would ever not use this cost. Because it grows more expensive as the character levels up it falls into the very rare catagory of abilities that actually punish you for gaining levels. A trait that's currently only shared by one other ability in D&D: Truenaming.

What a frightening thought! You're right though...players will want the full bonus 9 times out of 10, and it just turns into a drain. Not what I wanted! I could see Seerow's suggestion implemented. Perhaps 2 PP per +, and only have to buy them once every 24 hours.


Now that those horrifyingly awful statements are out of the way. A question. How do levels in this class interact with levels in other psionic classes? Does it add to manifester level in some fashion? In turn would multiclassing with psion raises the Ascetic's manifester level. Could a psion's power points be used with Ascetic abilities etc.

Levels in this class interact the say way other psionic classes do (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#multiclassPsionicCharacters). There would be a single PP pool, but your manifestor level would not be affected. So you could take a bunch of levels in Psion and have a huge PP pool...but your ascetic manifestor level would be very low, meaning your various class abilities would provide tiny bonuses.


I think I like it. I do agree that the d12 HD is pushing it. With the DR and Fast Healing options, you're already pretty darn resilient. If you want more resilience, perhaps a feat or ACF that allows you to expend your focus to gain a deflection AC bonus for a certain duration. Perhaps augmentable with PP.

As covered above, the HD will be reduced. The ability to gain an AC bonus...sounds like a feat for Focused Mind.


Or allow certain class levels or abilities to double as psionic feats for the purposes of Psionic Body or something.

A little too complicated, I think. But I am going to change the Expanded Knowledge feats to any [Psionic] feat.


I also like the thought of "investing" PP into your WoT and regaining them when you unshape it. It seems to have a better "feel" to me, and grants more versatility. I'd actually be minded to do that with Fleet of Mind and Resilient Body as well...

Reacquiring your PP after spending it feels very much like essentia to me. I like essentia, but it isn't what this class is aiming for. But having it be a valid investment for the whole day or...something. I dunno, maybe regaining PP would allow for resource management while not feeling overly restricting from the small pool.


Have you considered making Instinctive Observations augmentable?

I did not. It was written as an extraordinary ability, and thus not augment-able. I could change it to a SU ability for augment purposes...I suppose blindsense in an antimagic field has very limited applications. The main crux would be the flavor of the ability then.


This may just be my opinion, but 18th level is a long wait for telepathy for a class so focused on the mind. I don't have any suggestions thus far for what level to start it at, or how to implement it, but it seems to me like it should.

Overall, another good great job.

It is a long time to wait. Flavor-wise, I felt like it was a decent fit, as only a very highly advanced ascetic can extend their senses beyond themselves to such a degree as to communicate with other minds. They're primarily focused inwards, not outwards. And moving it would make 18 nearly dead, as not aging is a really lackluster game ability for the most part. Immortality is sweet...but not while you're playing. :smalltongue:

And thank you! :smallbiggrin:

Melayl
2011-06-02, 10:06 PM
As covered above, the HD will be reduced. The ability to gain an AC bonus...sounds like a feat for Focused Mind.
I look forward to seeing what you come up with.


A little too complicated, I think. But I am going to change the Expanded Knowledge feats to any [Psionic] feat.
That sounds good. It doesn't give a huge boost, but it does give a boost.


Reacquiring your PP after spending it feels very much like essentia to me. I like essentia, but it isn't what this class is aiming for. But having it be a valid investment for the whole day or...something. I dunno, maybe regaining PP would allow for resource management while not feeling overly restricting from the small pool.
Understandable. I've always felt that essentia/Incarnum and PP/Psionics were really close concepts anyway.
I think the 24 hour PP investment is a good solution. You only need to spend more if you want to change things, then.


I did not. It was written as an extraordinary ability, and thus not augment-able. I could change it to a SU ability for augment purposes...I suppose blindsense in an antimagic field has very limited applications. The main crux would be the flavor of the ability then.
I must be confused. I thought you could keep it Ex, and have the augment still be Su... I just thought it would make the ability more useful to be able to expand the range, or turn it into blindsight.


It is a long time to wait. Flavor-wise, I felt like it was a decent fit, as only a very highly advanced ascetic can extend their senses beyond themselves to such a degree as to communicate with other minds. They're primarily focused inwards, not outwards. And moving it would make 18 nearly dead, as not aging is a really lackluster game ability for the most part. Immortality is sweet...but not while you're playing. :smalltongue:

And thank you! :smallbiggrin:
I can see that. It was rather late when I was posting, and after a 12 hour shift, so I lost sight of the fact that it was a more inwardly-focused class.

And you're welcome!

MammonAzrael
2011-06-03, 01:52 AM
Understandable. I've always felt that essentia/Incarnum and PP/Psionics were really close concepts anyway.
I think the 24 hour PP investment is a good solution. You only need to spend more if you want to change things, then.

Me too. Which is probably why I like them both so much. :smalltongue:


I must be confused. I thought you could keep it Ex, and have the augment still be Su... I just thought it would make the ability more useful to be able to expand the range, or turn it into blindsight.

What I meant was that I had made in Ex in my mind, which is why I hadn't considered making it augment-able. Not that it couldn't be.

I've done a number of updates, which are easily seen in the newly added change log! :smallsmile:

Cyberpilot
2011-06-05, 06:57 PM
Your going to want to modify the hit die on the racial substitution levels. Also doesn't the fact that "powers known" wasn't removed mean you can still spend those psionic feats on expanded knowledge?

Referring to Ideal Body, you could always modify it to give a Ring of Sustenance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#sustenance)/Endure Elements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm) type effect. And maybe change the name to Mind over Matter?

Tvtyrant
2011-06-05, 08:46 PM
This is going on my list of really reasonable homebrew. It takes two not so good classes and makes them upper tier 4 by combining the best features.

In fact, the idea of size progressing the blades was rather inspired.

MammonAzrael
2011-06-06, 01:29 PM
Your going to want to modify the hit die on the racial substitution levels. Also doesn't the fact that "powers known" wasn't removed mean you can still spend those psionic feats on expanded knowledge?

Referring to Ideal Body, you could always modify it to give a Ring of Sustenance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#sustenance)/Endure Elements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm) type effect. And maybe change the name to Mind over Matter?

I'll do that, thanks.

Yes, it does. Which is why the "Powers Known" was kept - the class gains power points naturally, and every other class that does also gains powers. It needs something to govern what powers it can learn. Changing it to "any [Psionic] feat" was a buff, but a minor one that opened up plenty of new options.

If all my 13th level ability did was duplicate a first level spell and a 2500 gp item, I'd be very put out. It is just way too weak. Something in the vein of enduring sustainability could be in the cards, but at 13th level it would be very hard to justify and find a correct power level.

As for the name, if the ability stays then it needs to conform to the naming convention. An "X Body" ability is gained every 4 levels starting at 5th, and they all have the same general template and style. Ideal could change, but the name style won't.


This is going on my list of really reasonable homebrew. It takes two not so good classes and makes them upper tier 4 by combining the best features.

In fact, the idea of size progressing the blades was rather inspired.

:smallbiggrin: Thank you very much! If you decide to use it, I'd love to have played feedback!

The_Ebolanator
2011-06-06, 05:07 PM
I do have to admit, this is a very clever monk fix. I always figured that if the monk were to be revamped it would probably involve psionics or martial maneuvers . . . to which most give the "unarmed swordsage" speech, but fusing it with soulknife was rather interesting.
Now I know you mention the fact that you can manifest any weapon from swords to spiked gauntlets and adjust them accordingly, but if one were to take improved unarmed strike could you channel the weapon abilities through your fist (and thereby benefiting from the increased dice damage and all)? Or is that option just a superfluous redundancy?

MammonAzrael
2011-06-06, 06:07 PM
I do have to admit, this is a very clever monk fix. I always figured that if the monk were to be revamped it would probably involve psionics or martial maneuvers . . . to which most give the "unarmed swordsage" speech, but fusing it with soulknife was rather interesting.
Now I know you mention the fact that you can manifest any weapon from swords to spiked gauntlets and adjust them accordingly, but if one were to take improved unarmed strike could you channel the weapon abilities through your fist (and thereby benefiting from the increased dice damage and all)? Or is that option just a superfluous redundancy?

I suppose there are some fringe cases that would be relevant, such as your unarmed strikes being natural weapons, but generally I see it as being pretty redundant. I could see rewording the ability if a significant number of options were gained, but someone would need to be convincing enough for me to change it.

And thank you. :smallsmile:

Cyberpilot
2011-06-06, 07:29 PM
Would my suggestions be more interesting at 7th level? Replacing Natural Athleticism instead of Ideal Body, would that work?

MammonAzrael
2011-06-06, 07:42 PM
Would my suggestions be more interesting at 7th level? Replacing Natural Athleticism instead of Ideal Body, would that work?

The problem is, it's power is extremely underwhelming. On top of that, it has little real impact for most games. Very very rarely does eating or the temp or related issues ever come up in game. Remember also that both those effects are first level spells. Which means they're available at first level. Vow of Poverty, a highly under-powered option, offers those benefits at 3rd and 5th level, and both times they are extremely minor footnotes.

It isn't that it is a bad idea, or one that couldn't be expanded. It's simply an option that needs to be gained at the appropriate time, which is likely between 1st and 3rd levels. And even then for it to be considered a "real" ability it'll need to have a larger impact on the game than so very rarely.

Cyberpilot
2011-06-07, 05:35 PM
How about Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) added to the list? Or would this get kinda lame, adding everything but the kitchen sink?

cmakonline
2011-08-11, 12:51 AM
This seems like a fun class. Just a few suggestion (not even sure if this is being checked by the author still).

reduce the MAD (Wisdom is needed for most of the class features, dex for AC, str for attack and damage, and con for HP) like for light weapon a class feature (or a homebrew feat) that will allow Dex for the attack and wisdom based damage, or wisdom for both (I know there is a feat that will allow Wis being used to hit from BoED iirc).

Also there should be a way to shape a rapier type weapon. Able to use weapon finesse (or the feat/feature described above) AND power attack. Rapier is one of the few weapons that can do both. Power attack can't be used for light weapons RAW. Rapier is not a light weapon (it is one handed melee):

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isnít a light weapon for you.
Or you can write in that you can use this feature above like how with power attack you can use power attack with unarmed strikes and natural weapons. Either way works.

Only thing I feel that is "missing" from the Monk (and what makes a Monk special to me) is the flurry of blows....that would be amazing with this class (maybe too strong melee wise)

I also don't get the damage dice progression. 2d12 is cool, but normally it would be sized to 4d8 (I can't remember which) after 2d10 for monk damage. Only advantage is that 2d12 will max out more often (a lot more) see below for details
{table]damage dice|max damage|min damage|avg damage|Probability of max
2d12|24|2|13|1 out of 144
4d8|32|4|18|1 out of 4,096[/table]
I ran some numbers...4d8 1% of the time will be greater than 24 or higher (which only gets 24 less than 1% of the rolls). 4d8 is a better for dice rolling

MammonAzrael
2011-08-11, 12:06 PM
I follow all my homebrew. :smallsmile:

Firstly, I'm glad you like it, and thanks for the comments!

Wis is the only truly needed stat of the class. While you will want a solid mix of Str, Dex, and Con, none of them are vital to have significantly high, as the various class features, from the Wis to AC to Focused Mind, help shore up things. I very much believe that SAD classes are very poor game design, and I strive to avoid them. Having to make some choices or figuring out what you'll focus on expands the class, I feel. It helps to support a large variety of ascetics - there isn't only a single way to play the class.

The Weapon Finesse/Power Attack issue is easily fixable. :smallsmile:

Flurry of Blows does exist - as a racial substitution option for the Xeph.

Yes, 2d12 isn't really used. And I submit to you: Why not? Why isn't it used? While it makes sense to go from 2d12 to 4d6/8, since we don't have a d14, why does the game not like to go from 10 to 12? Not only do I see no good reason for it, but d12s don't get enough love as it is.



And in case Cyberpilot ever checks this again - freedom of movement is the Xeph racial substitution at 4th level. :smallbiggrin: So yes, that was an idea of more appropriate power levels.

cmakonline
2011-08-11, 12:54 PM
Wis is the only truly needed stat of the class. While you will want a solid mix of Str, Dex, and Con, none of them are vital to have significantly high, as the various class features, from the Wis to AC to Focused Mind, help shore up things. I very much believe that SAD classes are very poor game design, and I strive to avoid them. Having to make some choices or figuring out what you'll focus on expands the class, I feel. It helps to support a large variety of ascetics - there isn't only a single way to play the class.
I didn't mean make it SAD (I person don't like that much either). Since its a melee character it will never be SAD (since it needs a good strength, dex and con - well con is almost always important if you ask me). But taking out the Str will make it less MAD (even if it is secondary). It would take out 1 of the secondary abilities needed.


The Weapon Finesse/Power Attack issue is easily fixable. :smallsmile:
Sweet! Easiest solution would probably an Augment that allows Power Attack with the Weapon of Thought.


Flurry of Blows does exist - as a racial substitution option for the Xeph.
Missed that since the name was different. I didn't read it too carefully obviously lol


Yes, 2d12 isn't really used. And I submit to you: Why not? Why isn't it used? While it makes sense to go from 2d12 to 4d6/8, since we don't have a d14, why does the game not like to go from 10 to 12? Not only do I see no good reason for it, but d12s don't get enough love as it is.

I think I answered why not before:

{table]damage dice|max damage|min damage|avg damage|Probability of max
2d12|24|2|13|1 out of 144
4d8|32|4|18|1 out of 4,096[/table]
I ran some numbers...4d8 1% of the time will be greater than 24 or higher (which only gets 24 less than 1% of the rolls). 4d8 is a better for dice rolling
4d8 is better and will more often give a score 24 or higher (41/4096 which is a little tiny bit higher than 1% of the dice rolls). Where as 2d12 just gives 24 roll 1/144 which is litte under 0.7% of the dice rolls). 4d8 is better damage.

Also with the PP/day you might want to make an Elan racial substitution.

MammonAzrael
2011-08-11, 01:17 PM
I didn't mean make it SAD (I person don't like that much either). Since its a melee character it will never be SAD (since it needs a good strength, dex and con - well con is almost always important if you ask me). But taking out the Str will make it less MAD (even if it is secondary). It would take out 1 of the secondary abilities needed.

If you take Weapon Finesse, the only think you'd really be losing from Str is the extra damage. And if you focus on Str, then you'll just have a slightly lower AC. I think that's a fair trade off.


Sweet! Easiest solution would probably an Augment that allows Power Attack with the Weapon of Thought.

Nope, even easier. I'm just going to make a note that you can use Weapon Finesse with your Weapon of Thought regardless of what augments you've applied to it.


Missed that since the name was different. I didn't read it too carefully obviously lol

:smalltongue:


I think I answered why not before:

4d8 is better and will more often give a score 24 or higher (41/4096 which is a little tiny bit higher than 1% of the dice rolls). Where as 2d12 just gives 24 roll 1/144 which is litte under 0.7% of the dice rolls). 4d8 is better damage.

4d8 is better. So is 4d10. So is 4d20. Now obviously I'm being a bit absurd here, but hopefully you get my point. 2d12 is the simplest and most logical progression from 2d10. The damage increase is consistent with the rest of the class, instead of having a large spike at the end. If I were to change it, I'd change it to 4d6, which is much closer to 2d12 in terms of damage, just a higher average. And that may in fact better compliment the rest of the class, if I were to make an epic progression for it. But as it stand now, I think the 2d12 will be staying.


Also with the PP/day you might want to make an Elan racial substitution.

Hmm...I could see an Elan substitution. I shall tinker with this, good idea!

cmakonline
2011-08-11, 03:04 PM
Its your class pick how w/e damage you would want. Just saying what makes since with other things of increasing damage.

I would def agree 2d12 is better than 4d6 (since the 24 is far more likely with 2d12).



Nope, even easier. I'm just going to make a note that you can use Weapon Finesse with your Weapon of Thought regardless of what augments you've applied to it.

How about Power Attack too?

candycorn
2011-08-12, 05:04 PM
Practiced Manifester has interesting interaction with the class features of this class. That +4 ML can really boost up the augmentation abilities.

Generally, 2d6 is considered slightly better than 1d12, so I'd wager that 4d6 is better than 2d12. This is due to a more consistent damage, and a slightly higher average (2d12 averages to 13 damage, 4d6 averages to 14 damage).

1d12: Average damage - 6.5 x2 = 13
1d6: Average damage - 3.5 x4 = 14

Over the course of a career, 4d6 will result in about 7.7% more damage from weapon alone.

MammonAzrael
2011-08-12, 05:28 PM
Practiced Manifester has interesting interaction with the class features of this class. That +4 ML can really boost up the augmentation abilities.

And I think that's a decent use of a feat. All it really allows you to do is increase the amount of PP you can pour into an ability, which should prove useful, but not more so than a feat should.


Generally, 2d6 is considered slightly better than 1d12, so I'd wager that 4d6 is better than 2d12. This is due to a more consistent damage, and a slightly higher average (2d12 averages to 13 damage, 4d6 averages to 14 damage).

1d12: Average damage - 6.5 x2 = 13
1d6: Average damage - 3.5 x4 = 14

Over the course of a career, 4d6 will result in about 7.7% more damage from weapon alone.

Yes, 2d6 is better than 1d12. While you will roll maximum damage less often, you will have a higher average damage (by 1 point). If I decide to make an epic progression for the ascetic, I'll switch the 2d12 for 4d6, so it mirrors the change at 10th level. As it stands now though, I think it is better to just keep the 2 damage dice instead of increasing it to 4.

cmakonline
2011-08-26, 12:19 PM
Okay I have used this class twice now. One with it starting at level 5 (its a multigestalt game) and another is epic (Level 60 game) so I had it at level 20.

My experience with the class: AAAMMMAAAAZING! I love it! So much fun to play with. It has nice flexibly when I am not hacking and slashing away.

Comments:

For Multi Arm Characters I would change the Shaped Thought line from "It splits into two identical light melee weapons, one wielded in each hand." to "Make additional identical melee weapon, one wielded in each hand. 3 points per hand."
I think Practiced Draw should be moved down a level or two (switched with either refined thought, resilient body or Body of the pure)
Natural Athleticism - I love it! Even better when you add Factotum's Brain over Brawn.
Ideal Body - is fun especial when you have a lot of PP to play with! It could be more fun if it was an unnamed bonus so it can stack with enhancement bonuses. Got to spend 2-6 (or more in epic) points just to equal what I would have from a magic item.
Shattered Thoughts - I think that each creature attacked should just been rolled as if it was a normal attack. Don't see the point to reflex save personally. The way it is written it is a weaker feature (especial on high level games where the character has 33 wisdom (base 18 +4 from levels + 5 from tome + 6 from Periapt of Wisdom). DC 31 for level 20 isn't hard to do (using 33 Dex and +12 base save) that is a 40% rolling 9 or higher to get the save.

MammonAzrael
2011-08-26, 01:31 PM
Okay I have used this class twice now. One with it starting at level 5 (its a multigestalt game) and another is epic (Level 60 game) so I had it at level 20.

My experience with the class: AAAMMMAAAAZING! I love it! So much fun to play with. It has nice flexibly when I am not hacking and slashing away.

Actual playtesting?! I love it! :smallbiggrin: I'm glad you enjoyed it!


Did you feel like you had enough combat options, and opportunity to do more that just "hit it again?"
Was the PP workable? You aren't supposed to be throwin' it around like a psion obviously, but it was intended to increase your options, not feel constricting.
How were you, durability-wise? Acceptable front-liner?
Did any of the abilities feel underpowered or useless?



Comments:

For Multi Arm Characters I would change the Shaped Thought line from "It splits into two identical light melee weapons, one wielded in each hand." to "Make additional identical melee weapon, one wielded in each hand. 3 points per hand."
I think Practiced Draw should be moved down a level or two (switched with either refined thought, resilient body or Body of the pure)
Natural Athleticism - I love it! Even better when you add Factotum's Brain over Brawn.
Ideal Body - is fun especial when you have a lot of PP to play with! It could be more fun if it was an unnamed bonus so it can stack with enhancement bonuses. Got to spend 2-6 (or more in epic) points just to equal what I would have from a magic item.
Shattered Thoughts - I think that each creature attacked should just been rolled as if it was a normal attack. Don't see the point to reflex save personally. The way it is written it is a weaker feature (especial on high level games where the character has 33 wisdom (base 18 +4 from levels + 5 from tome + 6 from Periapt of Wisdom). DC 31 for level 20 isn't hard to do (using 33 Dex and +12 base save) that is a 40% rolling 9 or higher to get the save.



I hadn't considered many-armed characters. Done.
Why do you feel Practiced Draw should be moved down?
I thought about making Ideal Body an unnamed bonus, but I felt that would allow for some unacceptably high stats when combined with items. Fun yes, but balanced...?
I considered making it an attack. The reason I didn't was because the way it is now it hits everyone in range, no question. Which means they have to roll for all three saves. If I changed it to an attack roll, then if the attack missed the targets wouldn't have to make the Fort or Will save. The damage from Shattered Thoughts should really be the lower priority...I mean, if they have that good a chance at making the reflex save, then there is a much better probability that they'll fail one of the other, more debilitating saves.

Wyntonian
2011-08-26, 06:25 PM
Just a little note, you reduced the HD to d10 in the main class, but not for the substitution levels. If that was deliberate feel free to shut me up.

MammonAzrael
2011-08-26, 06:50 PM
Nope, that's something I need to fix. Feel free to keep talking...for now! :smalltongue:

brujon
2011-08-26, 07:27 PM
I really like the class, i really do. But i think you went a bit overboard with all the abilities the class have. I mean, sure, casters can do everything and then a bit more, and melee needs to have a bit more love, etc... but let's take a look.

They have the possibility to have the absolute BEST weapon (base weapon. 18-20, x4, Piercing Bludgeoning and Slashing, with reach but able to target adjacent targets. And they need spend only 10 PP. Oh, and it also counts as a light weapon, but can be used for power attack. Although they won't likely have that much PP to spend on their weapon until 8th level (Assuming base wisdom of 10), it's pretty easy to bump that. Just choose a psionic race (+2 pp), with a bonus to wisdom, get 20 wisdom at 1, and... at 4th level they'll have 13 PP. But there are many, many items which grant bonus PP's. Then you get free weapon auguments (Which i think could actually be bumped to once every 3 levels past 5th, so you have a +5 weapon by level 17, a +6 by 20. (Which every one and their grandmother will have by then. Even a +6 or +7, even)

This is fine. I really like that. Casters can polymorph to do whatever the hell they want, so why not?

But then you have:
Near immunity to disease and poisons,
SR,
improved evasion,
barbarian-like DR(better, actually),
+WIS to all non-mental skills (Making them EXCELLENT skill-monkeys), Improved Evasion,
Blindsense (Possibly Blindsight),
Fast Heal basically whenever they want it,
semi-rage at 13(no drawbacks),
near immunity to mind-affecting spells,
telepathy,
NO penalties for aging(so you can just go age on the far realms),
and 20 resistance to everything, plus outsider type with ress possible.

I DO understand you did not intend to balance this with the core melee classes, and i'm actually glad you did. But you do have to factor in multiclassing. I mean, really. This class has it's most powerful class features in it's first 5 levels. Just off the top of my head, Ascetic 5/Kensai 10/Warblade5 gets you the absolute best melee weapon, +6 enhancements (1 from Ascetic, 4 from Kensai), and up to 6-7th level maneuvers.

Really. This class has so many class features... But those class features aren't really what the class needs. He doesn't really need all those immunities, telepathy or blindsense, etc... As is, there is almost no reason to take this class past 5. The only scaling ability is the weapon enhancement, damage, and bonus to hit. Practiced Ascetic feat exacerbates this problem.

For all else, you're better off splitting to Psychic Warrior after 5 to gain access to powers. Or to kensai to progress your enhancement bonus. Or to both. And then splashing Warblade to get maneuvers.

Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader, they all have incentives to keep you going. Maneuvers and stances progresses at each level. Crusader gains decent and unique defensive abilities, warblade has bonus feats to help you shape up your character... You get my drift.

All those class features the class gains after 5th can be replicated by magic items - which you'll be easily able to afford, because you simply do not need - nor WANT - another weapon that isn't your mind blade. They do not actually make the class stronger. They do not make the class more versatile.

As is, they're just heavy-hitters with a great frame and strong early class abilities. Sure, the skill-monkeyness really helps, improved evasion is a really great ability... But you can get that by multiclassing after 5, and actually be better off in the long run - Kinda like monk on that regard.

I think you should give them a gish frame. For real. Look at the duskblade - Arcane Channeling is what makes him really strong. He is very strong, durable, reliable, and unique. And encourages progression on the class.

If you gave them psionic casting, up to 4th level powers, the class would benefit a lot. Maybe even mesh up the monk school styles with the Ardent mantles - You choose a "school" and it gives you bonus feats/powers themed with that. It's whole lot better than giving a bunch of class features that do not actually help the class be stronger.

So, that's my opinion. I really like the idea, just think it's laden with class features which don't actually help that much...


TL;DR - The class has a pretty strong chassis, but little incentive to take it past level 5. Class features gained after WoT and WoT enhancements do not add much to the class and can be replicated easily by magic items. Class still has monk problem of not having access to fly/other movement speeds easily. Is a one-trick pony (maybe 2 trick pony because of the skill-monkeyness gained by adding WIS to basically every skill). Suggested solution: Give power point progression, maybe thematically based on the monk school styles and the ardent mantles (Powers+Feats based on school chosen).



EDIT:


The problem is, it's power is extremely underwhelming. On top of that, it has little real impact for most games. Very very rarely does eating or the temp or related issues ever come up in game. Remember also that both those effects are first level spells. Which means they're available at first level. Vow of Poverty, a highly under-powered option, offers those benefits at 3rd and 5th level, and both times they are extremely minor footnotes.

It isn't that it is a bad idea, or one that couldn't be expanded. It's simply an option that needs to be gained at the appropriate time, which is likely between 1st and 3rd levels. And even then for it to be considered a "real" ability it'll need to have a larger impact on the game than so very rarely.

Vow of Poverty is actually a very good option for this class. The reason it's underwhelming is because equipment helps so much, but with the load of things this class gains, and some clever multiclassing, you'll actually gain MUCH more. Much of the reason VoP is considered sub-par is because you cannot get easy magical healing/immunities, and no weapon enhancements. This class has it all.

MammonAzrael
2011-08-26, 08:21 PM
I really like the class, i really do. But i think you went a bit overboard with all the abilities the class have. I mean, sure, casters can do everything and then a bit more, and melee needs to have a bit more love, etc... but let's take a look.

They have the possibility to have the absolute BEST weapon (base weapon. 18-20, x4, Piercing Bludgeoning and Slashing, with reach but able to target adjacent targets. And they need spend only 10 PP. Oh, and it also counts as a light weapon, but can be used for power attack. Although they won't likely have that much PP to spend on their weapon until 8th level (Assuming base wisdom of 10), it's pretty easy to bump that. Just choose a psionic race (+2 pp), with a bonus to wisdom, get 20 wisdom at 1, and... at 4th level they'll have 13 PP. But there are many, many items which grant bonus PP's. Then you get free weapon auguments (Which i think could actually be bumped to once every 3 levels past 5th, so you have a +5 weapon by level 17, a +6 by 20. (Which every one and their grandmother will have by then. Even a +6 or +7, even)

Please note that their manifestor level is equal to half their class level. And you can only spend PP on class abilities up to your manifestor level. You can't dump 10 PP into an ability until you hit level 20. So if you want that 18-20/x4 weapon you're welcome to it. Means you can't have any other Augments, either.

Your point about moving the enhancement bonuses is well taken though, and I may fiddle with that.


But then you have:

Near immunity to disease and poisons,
Which are both things that are relevant for very few levels. Even by mid levels most DCs are laughable, and you can substitute for a caster if your party needs something like remove disease. Removing the nauseated, sickened, or stunned condition is by far the most powerful part of Body of the Pure, and that pales in comparison to the 3rd level maneuver Iron Heart Surge.
SR,
A nice, if late, feature to be sure. But SR 27 at 17th level is pretty par for the course.
improved evasion,
barbarian-like DR(better, actually),
Barbarian DR is next to worthless. I currently have a thread discussing DR actually, and it is certainly a difficult thing to balance, as it doesn't function that great in variance. That said, you're paying part of your limited PP to gain DR for effectively a single combat. Chances are that most of the time, your PP or actions will be better spent elsewhere, especially since you won't often have a guarantee that you'll be the one getting smacked around.
+WIS to all non-mental skills (Making them EXCELLENT skill-monkeys),
Making them solid skill-monkies. Plenty of skill-monkey skills are cross-class for them, and trained only.
Blindsense (Possibly Blindsight),
Fast Heal basically whenever they want it,
Wands of lesser Vigor and Healing Belts are 750 gp each. Chump change by 9th level. And its my belief that healing, including unlimited healing, should be far more prevalent.
semi-rage at 13(no drawbacks),
Rage stacks with stat-boosting items. Ideal Body does not.
near immunity to mind-affecting spells,
Yeah, it's good. But not nearly as good as mind blank, which is not only standard, but nearly required for high level play.
telepathy,
Pretty much flavor, aside from the Mindsight feat. Especially so late in the game.
NO penalties for aging(so you can just go age on the far realms),
Complete flavor ability. I would bet my life on the assumption that in 99.99+% of the games played, age isn't of any relevance or used.
and 20 resistance to everything, plus outsider type with ress possible.
Capstones should be worth getting. Otherwise you'll have no reason to PrC out of a class.


Replies in bold


I DO understand you did not intend to balance this with the core melee classes, and i'm actually glad you did. But you do have to factor in multiclassing. I mean, really. This class has it's most powerful class features in it's first 5 levels. Just off the top of my head, Ascetic 5/Kensai 10/Warblade5 gets you the absolute best melee weapon, +6 enhancements (1 from Ascetic, 4 from Kensai), and up to 6-7th level maneuvers.

Not quite. An Ascetic 5/X can only spend 2 PP in any given ability. In addition the Weapon of Thought only improves with class levels. Its enhancement bonus, base damage, and everything else is tied to your Ascetic level, not your ECL.


Really. This class has so many class features... But those class features aren't really what the class needs. He doesn't really need all those immunities, telepathy or blindsense, etc... As is, there is almost no reason to take this class past 5. The only scaling ability is the weapon enhancement, damage, and bonus to hit. Practiced Ascetic feat exacerbates this problem.

I am a firm believe that dead levels are poor design. If you level up and you don't get something new, the designer did not do a good job. Each level doesn't have to redefine your character, but it better add something. And a slight bump to BAB, HP, etc does not count.


For all else, you're better off splitting to Psychic Warrior after 5 to gain access to powers. Or to kensai to progress your enhancement bonus. Or to both. And then splashing Warblade to get maneuvers.

Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader, they all have incentives to keep you going. Maneuvers and stances progresses at each level. Crusader gains decent and unique defensive abilities, warblade has bonus feats to help you shape up your character... You get my drift.

All those scaling abilities? They only scale with your Ascetic level, not any level. That is the difference between "class level" and "character level" in an abilities description. And aside from increasing your PP, you can only increase your manifestor level with levels in Ascetic or a PrC that advances psionics.


All those class features the class gains after 5th can be replicated by magic items - which you'll be easily able to afford, because you simply do not need - nor WANT - another weapon that isn't your mind blade. They do not actually make the class stronger. They do not make the class more versatile.

That's partly the point. You don't have to spend ~200k on your weapon. Or 240k on a Rind of Mind Blank. You'll still probably want to spend ~100K on a solid set of armor. You can choose to get stat-boosting items or not (you'll probably want at least a periapt of Wisdom). You can spend this cash on other things, interesting and unusual things that can expand your abilities.

Part of the reason the class can have so many features is because many of them are similar to standard equipment. They aren't destroying balance, because other classes can acquire them with gold.


As is, they're just heavy-hitters with a great frame and strong early class abilities. Sure, the skill-monkeyness really helps, improved evasion is a really great ability... But you can get that by multiclassing after 5, and actually be better off in the long run - Kinda like monk on that regard.

I think is is continued on the incorrect assumption that everything is scaling with character level, and not realizing the manifestor level limit. They are intended to be the ultimate class for those times when the party's items are stolen/confiscated/etc. All they ever need is themselves.


I think you should give them a gish frame. For real. Look at the duskblade - Arcane Channeling is what makes him really strong. He is very strong, durable, reliable, and unique. And encourages progression on the class.

Arcane Channeling is part of what makes them strong. The other major part is their extremely high number of spells per day. If they were Psionic, by 20th level the class would grant 200 PP.


If you gave them psionic casting, up to 4th level powers, the class would benefit a lot. Maybe even mesh up the monk school styles with the Ardent mantles - You choose a "school" and it gives you bonus feats/powers themed with that. It's whole lot better than giving a bunch of class features that do not actually help the class be stronger.

That could make a fun class, but that would be a much different take.


So, that's my opinion. I really like the idea, just think it's laden with class features which don't actually help that much...

TL;DR - The class has a pretty strong chassis, but little incentive to take it past level 5. Class features gained after WoT and WoT enhancements do not add much to the class and can be replicated easily by magic items. Class still has monk problem of not having access to fly/other movement speeds easily. Is a one-trick pony (maybe 2 trick pony because of the skill-monkeyness gained by adding WIS to basically every skill). Suggested solution: Give power point progression, maybe thematically based on the monk school styles and the ardent mantles (Powers+Feats based on school chosen).

I very much appreciate the time you took to offer your opinion and critique. I'm afraid you mistakenly assumed that the Weapon of Thought progressed with character level, not class level. And flight was explicitly not granted, as that is a power they can choose to learn if they wish with the Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) feat if they wish to take it at 16th level. Before that they're in the same boat as most other non-casters, they need a magical item or friend.

And if you choose to PrC, you won't gain the multiple abilities that "replace" items, which makes perfect sense, as you have left the path of the ascetic, which is focused on not needing items (but neither foolishly rejecting useful ones).


EDIT:

Vow of Poverty is actually a very good option for this class. The reason it's underwhelming is because equipment helps so much, but with the load of things this class gains, and some clever multiclassing, you'll actually gain MUCH more. Much of the reason VoP is considered sub-par is because you cannot get easy magical healing/immunities, and no weapon enhancements. This class has it all.

Yep. Part of the purpose of this class is to represent the fantasy figure that can do without items. Vow of Poverty is a natural fit and extension. Still weaker than standard WBL, but much better than with most classes. Ascetic wasn't just a cool sounding name for the class, ya know. :smallwink:

brujon
2011-08-27, 01:58 PM
Ok, i admit i thought manifestor levels from this class stacked with manifestor levels from another psionic classes, and that (some of) the features progressed with ECL. But that's a moot point - as you said, manifestor levels increase with psionic prestige classes that advance ML.

You can also grab Practiced Manifester as a feat and go to town with free +4 ML, then go to Sanctified Mind to fast-progress ML for 6 levels. You'd end up as a Ascetic 5/Sanctified Mind 6 -> 5 ML from SM, 2 ML from Ascetic, +4 from Practiced Manifester = 11 manifester levels. You can also grab Practiced Ascetic to dish damage out as a 10 level Ascetic.

Actually, you don't even have to grab Sanctified Mind, as you can just grab Practiced Ascetic + Practiced Manifester to all but negate the lost ML from going multiclassing. It's +9 ML up to your HD plus +5 levels of Ascetic Progression for features. You can multiclass from 5 to 14 and take no hit on your manifesting.



You'd have 16 PP(Plus Bonus), ability to cast up to 5th level powers (with expanded knowledge, or a dip in a class that gives it's own powers.). +2 mind blade (which kensai can then up easily to +6 in just 4 levels.). You then have 5 free levels to grab whatever you fancy.

You can also go Ascetic 5/Totemist X and then grab Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) to dual progress Incarnum & Manifester Level. Granted, you'll take quite a large hit to your BAB, but that can be mitigated somewhat by PrC'ing into full bab classes later, or even continuing into Ascetic.

You then just shape your Mindblade into a natural weapon (or even more than one natural weapon), and grab free pounce and other nifty stuff with incarnum... Choose claws to grab useful powers such as Claws of the Vampire etc, and useful soulmelds that increase claw damage dice.

My point is, it's easy enough to increase ML beyond what the class gives anyway, so it really isn't worth it to take the class beyond it's first 5 levels. The class features are very nice, and make many items obsolete, but most are utility, or covered very well by just having a wizard in the party. They don't make the class *better* in what it's supposed to do, IE: punch baddies with his mind. The reason ToB classes are so good, is because maneuvers add power and versatility basically every level, just like spells do. This class has PP, so it needs to be able to use powers.

The class would actually be stronger if you dropped some class features and made ML progress at 3/4 instead of 1/2.

MammonAzrael
2011-08-27, 02:44 PM
Ok, i admit i thought manifestor levels from this class stacked with manifestor levels from another psionic classes, and that (some of) the features progressed with ECL. But that's a moot point - as you said, manifestor levels increase with psionic prestige classes that advance ML.

Yes they do. At the same half-speed. So an ascetic 10/pionic-advancing PrC 10 would still have a manifester level 10.


You can also grab Practiced Manifester as a feat and go to town with free +4 ML, then go to Sanctified Mind to fast-progress ML for 6 levels. You'd end up as a Ascetic 5/Sanctified Mind 6 -> 5 ML from SM, 2 ML from Ascetic, +4 from Practiced Manifester = 11 manifester levels. You can also grab Practiced Ascetic to dish damage out as a 10 level Ascetic.

I have no problem with Practiced Manifester allowing an ascetic to achieve ML 14 by 20th level. Its a feat, it's supposed to improve what you can do.

And particular reason you chose Sanctified Mind? You do realize it doesn't "fast track" your manifester level, right?


Alternatively, at each level above first, you gain new powers per day, an increase in manifester level, and powers known as if you had also gained a level in a manifesting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

Emphasis mine.

And yes, the entire point of Practiced Ascetic is to allow for multiclassing while not having your Weapon of Thought be completely left in the dust.



Actually, you don't even have to grab Sanctified Mind, as you can just grab Practiced Ascetic + Practiced Manifester to all but negate the lost ML from going multiclassing. It's +9 ML up to your HD plus +5 levels of Ascetic Progression for features. You can multiclass from 5 to 14 and take no hit on your manifesting.

No, Its +4 ML from Practiced Manifester, and +5 to your ascetic level for determining your ML (aka 2.5 ML). And you've spent two feats to do it (plus potentially whatever feats you needed to qualify for your multiclass). Whats wrong with that?


You'd have 16 PP(Plus Bonus), ability to cast up to 5th level powers (with expanded knowledge, or a dip in a class that gives it's own powers.). +2 mind blade (which kensai can then up easily to +6 in just 4 levels.). You then have 5 free levels to grab whatever you fancy.

5th level powers? What? An ascetic can never learn 5th level powers. They're capped at 3rd, and thats at level 16. So unless you're PrCing into something like War Mind, which has its own, seperate progression and manifester level, you aren't weilding 5th level powers.

And whats wrong with the kensai making your weapon of thought better? The entire point of that PrC is to make your weapon better.


You can also go Ascetic 5/Totemist X and then grab Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) to dual progress Incarnum & Manifester Level. Granted, you'll take quite a large hit to your BAB, but that can be mitigated somewhat by PrC'ing into full bab classes later, or even continuing into Ascetic.

You then just shape your Mindblade into a natural weapon (or even more than one natural weapon), and grab free pounce and other nifty stuff with incarnum... Choose claws to grab useful powers such as Claws of the Vampire etc, and useful soulmelds that increase claw damage dice.

Ascetics cannot shape their Weapon of Thought into a natural weapon.

And you're saying that multiclassing into a class that specifically is excellent with natural attacks would let the ascetic be better with natural attacks?


My point is, it's easy enough to increase ML beyond what the class gives anyway, so it really isn't worth it to take the class beyond it's first 5 levels. The class features are very nice, and make many items obsolete, but most are utility, or covered very well by just having a wizard in the party. They don't make the class *better* in what it's supposed to do, IE: punch baddies with his mind. The reason ToB classes are so good, is because maneuvers add power and versatility basically every level, just like spells do. This class has PP, so it needs to be able to use powers.

The class would actually be stronger if you dropped some class features and made ML progress at 3/4 instead of 1/2.

The soulknife is half the inspiration for this class, and it would be better if it could manifest powers too. But it can't. The Fighter would be better if it could cast spells, but it can't. The ascetic actually has a leg up on the soulknife, in that it can actually learn powers, and its three bonus feats can be expanded knowledge for just that purpose. It isn't focused on manifesting, that is what the psychic warrior is for.

The ascetic is not just supposed to "punch baddies with his mind." It is supposed to be able to operate with little to no equipment or support, aid party members in emergencies, and yes, hit baddies. The utility is part of the class. Not every party has a wizard to "obsolete" the ascetic's class features. That same line of thought is like saying why would you ever play a melee class, including ToB, because casters can just summon things that do what you do - hit baddies.

brujon
2011-08-27, 06:20 PM
I chose Sanctified Mind for many reasons. It's thematically appropriate, it has full bab, meaningful class features, and 5/6 manifester progression. And don't get me wrong, i love the class. That's why i spent so much time thinking and posting about it. I just feel the class *begs* for something other than a bunch of class features, like a maneuver progression, powers, or another, unique, mechanic. Something that makes it *really* worthwhile to take all levels in this class, or most of them, like crusader, warblade, swordsage, and psychic warrior. While this class is STRICTLY better than either monk or soulknife, i don't feel it places Tier 3 yet, it's a high Tier 4. It doesn't do one thing very well, but doesn't lag behind the party, either. Crusader is tier 3 because it's the ABSOLUTE BEST TANK, ever. Warblade is like Fighter+Barbarian with maneuvers and steroids. Swordsage has the most maneuvers and school access of the three martial adepts. Psychic Warrior has powers like expansion and the claw line to make him excel at melee despite having 3/4 BAB, and many great utility powers.

While this class has the possibility to make the absolute best melee weapon ever, there isn't really much more to it. Weapon Aptitude class feature + Weapon Aptitude weapon enhancement make Warblade able to just choose whatever feats they want for any weapon and make them apply to their weapon, at any time. They have access to Diamond Mind maneuvers, which paired with concentration make them able to simply breeze through save or dies of all sorts. Iron Heart Surge let's them ignore battlefield control effects, many more maneuvers help keep pressure on your opponent, dealing great damage even without access to pounce. Crusader has Thicket of Blades and access to many maneuvers from DEV that makes them sustain heal better than anyone, while still dealing great damage and being generally unkillable. Oh, they both can ignore DR, too, with stone dragon maneuvers. Swordsage has Setting Sun, that has counters from here to china, various bonuses to grapple, Wis to AC, access to teleportation from Shadow Hand discipline, and the possibility to add DEX to weapon dmg, further reducing MAD. Psychic Warrior with just Expansion is already a better grappler than anyone else just because he can grow bigger. Add a monk splash, monastic training and tashalatora feats, plus the claw powers, and you have an absolute beast. Hell, you don't even need the monk splash, you just need a monk's belt and an amulet of natural attacks, and you already outdamage pretty much anyone.

This class has a very limited amount of PP to work with to fuel their class abilities, while all Martial Adepts can keep going forever, and Psychic Warrior has enough PP. The class abilities that emulate some magic items are nice, but many of them come too late to be of any use. If you want to pursue this class for it's 20 levels, it's basically NECESSARY to get at least 3 Expanded Knowledges. Psionic Lion's Charge ; Dimension Slide(escape from grapples) ; Hustle for some early mobility. Items that grant freedom of movement, fly, etc... will still be necessary.

This is my 2 cents

MammonAzrael
2011-08-27, 07:59 PM
Please don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled that you like the class enough to continue such involved responses and discussion! :smallbiggrin:


I chose Sanctified Mind for many reasons. It's thematically appropriate, it has full bab, meaningful class features, and 5/6 manifester progression.

Got it.


I just feel the class *begs* for something other than a bunch of class features, like a maneuver progression, powers, or another, unique, mechanic. Something that makes it *really* worthwhile to take all levels in this class, or most of them, like crusader, warblade, swordsage, and psychic warrior.

This is the point where you lose me. Manuever progression is not the reason to stay in a ToB class. You can continue to progress your maneuvers with PrCs. The reason to stay in those classes are Steely Resolve, Dual Boost, and Stance Mastery respectively. The Psychic Warrior offers next to no reason not to PrC out of the class as soon as possible into a PrC that advances manifesting and gives actual class features.

In fact, if I added a larger power progression to the Ascetic, that would give people even more reason to PrC out of the Ascetic and into a PrC that boosts manifesting. As it stands now the ascetic offers a power point progression that is slightly higher than the psionic equivalent of the Hexblade. And instead of having a small list of powers, it has a very small list, but also a great number of abilities that can be augmented.


<snip>ToB class capabilities</snip>

This class has a very limited amount of PP to work with to fuel their class abilities, while all Martial Adepts can keep going forever, and Psychic Warrior has enough PP. The class abilities that emulate some magic items are nice, but many of them come too late to be of any use. If you want to pursue this class for it's 20 levels, it's basically NECESSARY to get at least 3 Expanded Knowledges. Psionic Lion's Charge ; Dimension Slide(escape from grapples) ; Hustle for some early mobility. Items that grant freedom of movement, fly, etc... will still be necessary.

It feels to me like you want this to become a casting class. Unfortunately that is basically a requirement to achieve tier 3 status, as it is very difficult to offer than kind of flexibility otherwise. I could see possibly adding a very minor powers known progression, but that isn't really where I pictured the class going. I'd prefer the versatility to is a product of class features, not spell progression, to encourage continued progression in the class. After all, this isn't a replacement for the psychic warrior, so it can't be a better manifester, as that is really all the psychic warrior has going for it.

Do you have any suggestions or ideas? What features do you feel are extraneous or come too late? I certainly admit (and covered previously) that the current PP loadout may be too small. The current progression is covered here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11094214&postcount=16).

brujon
2011-08-28, 11:36 AM
Apart from what i've said about the enhancement bonus cap on the mindblade needing to maybe progress a little bit faster to help keep up with items, mostly everything up to 12th level is fine. Improved Evasion comes online roughly at the same time rogue is getting it. I'd probably swap out Natural Athleticism and Revitalized Body, though. If you want them to be mostly item-independent and kind of an "1-man party" not very dependent on clerics/wizards etc... I think the healing could come a bit earlier, as the skill-monkeyness gained by natural athleticism is good, but not the main focus of the class, as combat is.

Another idea i think would think would thematically fit this class, is spend power points to gain a bonus to one save as an immediate action. Kinda like Action Before Thought and the likes. You strain your mind to it's limits and then command your body to purge one effet. Then the feature could be upgraded to auto-passing a save, spending more PP (at a later level). This could substitute the mechanics that come online later, like Mind of the Pure, and apply to all 3 saves(One per use). This isn't broken, ToB classes get it at maneuver levels 2, 3 and 4, IIRC.

Blindsense is good, but blindsight is much better, and i think it wouldn't hurt that it came as blindsight directly, instead of you needing to spend PP to upgrade it. I'd change the range upgrading to be the expenditure of your psionic focus, something like "Spend your psionic focus to double the blindsight range for a number of rounds equal to your wisdom modifier". Then you're no longer expending a resource that's not easy replenishable(PP's), which gives this class more stamina(which it needs, because PP usage is very strained).

Wisdom of the Ages is a very useful ability, telepathy is very flavorful and useful, and feels "natural" to this class, which is why i think it could come a bit earlier. The no-longer aging component i think could be meshed with the capstone to match other classes that give it.

I also think Mind of the Pure could be upgraded to outright immunity to mind-affecting spells & abilities. Many PrC's give it, and at that level everyone will have an item that grants them it, or have mind blank up 24/7. It's also a natural progression for the class... Blindsight, then telepathy, then immunity to mind affecting. It's like it's evolving it's brain to such a high degree that it develops a sixth, then a seventh sense, and then the mind becomes too well developed to be affected by something made to affect "lesser minds".

This could very well help push this class into low Tier 3.

MammonAzrael
2011-08-28, 06:48 PM
So to boil down your suggestions for easy reading:


Move Natural Athleticism to level 9
Move Revitalized Body to level 7
Increase the WoT enhancement bonus (probably gained at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18)
Able to spend PP to boost a save
Instinctive Observations grant blindsight automatically, and range based on psionic focus instead of PP
Grant telepathy sooner
Mind of the Pure grants immunity to mind affecting




I can certainly see moving Revitalized body up sooner. Having more healing sooner is always nice.
I'm probably going to do the increase of WoT bonus. Getting a +6 weapon before epic levels would certainly make the feature even cooler.
I'm not crazy about spending PP to boost saves, TBH. While there isn't anything broken about it (Elans do it all the time), you can already have your Focused Mind bonus boosting your excellent saves, and can expend your psionic focus to counter many things that cause saves. In fact, now that I'm thinking about it more, this may be an ability to go into a Elan racial substitution level.
Blindsight is much nicer, and I could see tying the ability to psionic focus instead of PP. I'll play with this a little.
I think you're overstating how useful telepathy is for the grand majority of the game, but I do agree that it fits very well. I like the idea of your suggested mental progression, and may well work it in. And yes, agelessness could easily be incorporated into Oneness.
Oneness grants a permanent Psionic Mind Blank effect, so I'm not sure if I want to fiddle with it and Mind of the Pure that much. In fact, looking at it now, it does feel like it clashes a little with the capstone by being partially obsoleted...I'm going to look hard at this.

brujon
2011-08-29, 09:04 PM
Telepathy is pretty powerful, but i was saying more for the RP side of things than the mechanic side. But, it does let you qualify for some very nice prestige classes...

cmakonline
2011-08-29, 11:45 PM
First thing realize that I used both times with this VoP Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428). So my answers will reflect that sometimes.



Did you feel like you had enough combat options, and opportunity to do more that just "hit it again?"
Yes I did find that I had no problem than just hit it again and again. I am able to do a lot things with the character. I am a skill machine with the epic game (added with factotum's brain over brawn).

Was the PP workable? You aren't supposed to be throwin' it around like a psion obviously, but it was intended to increase your options, not feel constricting.
The amount of PP was very workable. I am not able to do all of the things a Psychic Warrior or a Psion can. I also don't have so many things to put PP in, so I think the amount does work fine for me. A little more couldn't hurt, but that would prob make it unbalanced. The bigger issue is the limit on spending them to max 10 points per ability at level 20 (more on this further down).

How were you, durability-wise? Acceptable front-liner?
Front liner? That is an understatement! From line star!!! I made it for an AoO build, so I was attacking all the time. With the wisdom AC bonus it made it a lot of fun! I didn't use regular armor bc I had the Force Armor from VoP (so no dex max). The lower levels the character does get hit, but he can take it! The Epic character doesn't get hit very often. Mostly enemies swing and miss (this is a level 60 epic game, and the only stat not adding to AC is strength).

Did any of the abilities feel underpowered or useless?


I did not use the enhancement bonuses because of the VoP giving a better one.
The half character level for the the class features does make it a bit weaker/more limited. Back to the multi-arm people - if you have 4 arms, then you to spend 9 points for each arm to have a weapon. Personally I would like to be able to spend as many points as I want (especially with the epic character who has way to many bonus points). Maybe a feat (at the very least an epic feat) or something to release the limits? I don't use Psionic classes often, so I am not an expert on them. However, I think with the Psion and the Psychic Warrior both can use as many points to augment a power as high as they want.
I barely (by barely I don't ever remember using it) use Fleet of Mind. I think it is cool for flavor, but just not practical to use too much. When I was sneaking around speed was not needed.
1 character I used had up to 4 arms, so what was stated before about the multi armed character was expressed there.
body of the Pure - again I did not use this much, but this is very situational on the DM.
Sheltered Body - I feel should be Psionic Resistance and not spell resistance. It would make sense to me flavor wise.
I think Improved Evasion is a waste since the base save is high for this class means that it is very rare that it would be failed. I would replace it with Mettle.
The age limit having no penalties is useless besides flavor (but you stated this yourself).
Telepathy I used once in a while - best for needing to "talk" to people when silence is needed. It is great for the RP side of things.

Why do you feel Practiced Draw should be moved down?
at the lower levels having it being a move action was a little frustrating. If using Two-Weapon Fighting feat the character had to have the Weapon of Thought out all ready.


I thought about making Ideal Body an unnamed bonus, but I felt that would allow for some unacceptably high stats when combined with items. Fun yes, but balanced...?
I can understand that, but for a balancing you can have a max on it like up to half the Ascetic levels. I mean your Bodybuilder PrC gives +10 Str and +8 Con. So having it unnamed would make sense so some can have a higher score without killing all of the PP.

I considered making it an attack. The reason I didn't was because the way it is now it hits everyone in range, no question. Which means they have to roll for all three saves. If I changed it to an attack roll, then if the attack missed the targets wouldn't have to make the Fort or Will save. The damage from Shattered Thoughts should really be the lower priority...I mean, if they have that good a chance at making the reflex save, then there is a much better probability that they'll fail one of the other, more debilitating saves.

I guess I can understand that part. Just 1 issue if an enemy has evasion (or even more so if they have improved evasion), then that enemy will take no damage. Therefore the other saves don't matter at all.

MammonAzrael
2011-08-30, 06:17 PM
I did not use the enhancement bonuses because of the VoP giving a better one.
The half character level for the the class features does make it a bit weaker/more limited. Back to the multi-arm people - if you have 4 arms, then you to spend 9 points for each arm to have a weapon. Personally I would like to be able to spend as many points as I want (especially with the epic character who has way to many bonus points). Maybe a feat (at the very least an epic feat) or something to release the limits? I don't use Psionic classes often, so I am not an expert on them. However, I think with the Psion and the Psychic Warrior both can use as many points to augment a power as high as they want.
I barely (by barely I don't ever remember using it) use Fleet of Mind. I think it is cool for flavor, but just not practical to use too much. When I was sneaking around speed was not needed.
1 character I used had up to 4 arms, so what was stated before about the multi armed character was expressed there.
body of the Pure - again I did not use this much, but this is very situational on the DM.
Sheltered Body - I feel should be Psionic Resistance and not spell resistance. It would make sense to me flavor wise.
I think Improved Evasion is a waste since the base save is high for this class means that it is very rare that it would be failed. I would replace it with Mettle.
The age limit having no penalties is useless besides flavor (but you stated this yourself).
Telepathy I used once in a while - best for needing to "talk" to people when silence is needed. It is great for the RP side of things.


Ok
All psionic classes are limited by their manifester level. So assuming no multiclassing a psion or psychic warrior can spend up to 20 PP in a single power. This is the singly most important rule of psionics. :smallsmile: If you want more than ML 10 in epic levels you'd need to take PrCs that advance manifest, and you'd probably want to take the Practiced Manifester feat.
So it sounds about equal to the monk's speed bonus then? Occasionally relevant.
Indeed.
*nodnod* very dependent on if you're ever faced with statuses like those...which vary from DM to DM
Good point, I'll change that.
Hmm...I could see that. You do already have great saves and a large pool of HP
Pretty much. :smallcool:
Yeah, that is right where I was thinking. Though I could see getting it earlier, as it certainly isn't game-breaking, just real nifty.



at the lower levels having it being a move action was a little frustrating. If using Two-Weapon Fighting feat the character had to have the Weapon of Thought out all ready.

Considering my various changes, I'm thinking about moving it down to 4th level. How does that sound?


I can understand that, but for a balancing you can have a max on it like up to half the Ascetic levels. I mean your Bodybuilder PrC gives +10 Str and +8 Con. So having it unnamed would make sense so some can have a higher score without killing all of the PP.

True, but the Bodybuilder has other deficiencies to make up for the large stat boosts (lowest BAB and HD). As it stands now an ascetic can spend 10 PP to get +6 to a score of their choice, effectively replicating a 36k item for 10 PP a day. And they can gain up to a +10 (which is a 1M gp item!). I could see an epic feat though to change the bonus to unnamed.


I guess I can understand that part. Just 1 issue if an enemy has evasion (or even more so if they have improved evasion), then that enemy will take no damage. Therefore the other saves don't matter at all.

Well that certainly isn't how its intended. I'm going to add a note regarding that. If you've got (Imp) Evasion and you make your Reflex save, you avoid the damage, but still must make the Will and Fort saves, and suffer the consequences if you fail those!

cmakonline
2011-08-30, 06:37 PM
All psionic classes are limited by their manifester level. So assuming no multiclassing a psion or psychic warrior can spend up to 20 PP in a single power. This is the singly most important rule of psionics. If you want more than ML 10 in epic levels you'd need to take PrCs that advance manifest, and you'd probably want to take the Practiced Manifester feat.
gotcha that is something that i didn't know. i don't use psionics much before this.

Considering my various changes, I'm thinking about moving it down to 4th level. How does that sound?
That works just fine

I could see an epic feat though to change the bonus to unnamed.
that would work rather well.

Well that certainly isn't how its intended. I'm going to add a note regarding that. If you've got (Imp) Evasion and you make your Reflex save, you avoid the damage, but still must make the Will and Fort saves, and suffer the consequences if you fail those!
Mechanically it would only make sense for the Will and Fort saves to be made if they are hit. The (Imp) Evasion would make it so it misses (at least that is how i read it).

Edit: Body of the Pure would be a little better if it included something removing exhaustion/fatigue as well. That would make it a little bit more useful without over powering it.

MammonAzrael
2011-08-30, 06:49 PM
Mechanically it would only make sense for the Will and Fort saves to be made if they are hit. The (Imp) Evasion would make it so it misses (at least that is how i read it).

Edit: Body of the Pure would be a little better if it included something removing exhaustion/fatigue as well. That would make it a little bit more useful without over powering it.

With shattered thoughts, conceptually you aren't just breaking up your WoT and hurling it everywhere. You are also psychically attacking everyone in range with your mind, which is why it's tied to your telepathy. Just because they can avoid the shards of your WoT doesn't mean they can just dodge out of the way of your mental attack.

Hmm...that is a true point, but doesn't really fit with the flavor of BotP. But it could fit in rather nicely with Natural Athleticism.

cmakonline
2011-08-30, 07:29 PM
With shattered thoughts, conceptually you aren't just breaking up your WoT and hurling it everywhere. You are also psychically attacking everyone in range with your mind, which is why it's tied to your telepathy. Just because they can avoid the shards of your WoT doesn't mean they can just dodge out of the way of your mental attack.


I was thinking that the blade was attacking everyone within the range, and not what you had in mind.

If I come across anything else I will let you know.

MammonAzrael
2011-08-30, 07:51 PM
I was thinking that the blade was attacking everyone within the range, and not what you had in mind.

If I come across anything else I will let you know.

I'll clarify that in the fluff then. :smallsmile:

cmakonline
2011-09-05, 01:13 PM
How does the feat Bolts of Thought work with Eternal Draw?

Also you can add to the epic immunity to ability damage/drain. that might not work with how this class is. not sure flavor wise.

Can Mastered Thoughts feat be taken more than once? I have it homeruled for that as of now. just wanna know your thoughts on that.

cmakonline
2011-09-23, 11:05 AM
I thought of an epic feat that would make sense. Epic Mastered Thoughts (gives you 10 instead of hte 3 like skill focus vs epic skill focus

MammonAzrael
2011-09-25, 04:32 PM
How does the feat Bolts of Thought work with Eternal Draw?

No conflict as far as I can tell. When you throw your WoT, you can form another thanks to BoT. You still only get your itterative attacks.

The clause in Eternal Draw about unlimited attempts over-writes Practiced Draw's note that you can only manifest it once a round. This is mainly applicable in places such as a null psionics field. With Eternal Draw, even if you fail the save to manifest the WoT, you can just try again as a free action til you succeed.


Also you can add to the epic immunity to ability damage/drain. that might not work with how this class is. not sure flavor wise.

Possible indeed.


Can Mastered Thoughts feat be taken more than once? I have it homeruled for that as of now. just wanna know your thoughts on that.

No, it cannot. It probably wouldn't break the game if you could, but as it stands now there is no "You may take this feat more than once" clause.


I thought of an epic feat that would make sense. Epic Mastered Thoughts (gives you 10 instead of hte 3 like skill focus vs epic skill focus

I like it. Will add in the next update. :smallsmile:

Cyberpilot
2012-02-11, 03:42 AM
Ok, this looks like it need a kick-start, so I'll oblige.

Let me start off by saying that the 1st level replacements for focused mind will lock the ascetic out of some feats, most importantly the multiclass feats(rogue and ranger, but not paladin). Is this intended?

The 4th level substitution for the xeph trades in both Body of the Pure & Practiced Draw for Body of the Free, is this intended?

Epic level advancement improves focused mind, but none of the other replacements to focused mind, might want to remedy that.

That is all ;)

Edit: Kalashtar 2nd level replacement has two names, Nimble body and Quick of mind, one in the replacement table, yet has another name in the class feature discriptives.