GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-05-14, 03:05 PM
This is a spinoff of this thread, to avoid a derail: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198854
TL;DR version: Polymorph got nerfed, low level spells got nerfed, mid level spells got completely ignored, and not enough high level spells got nerfed to make a difference.
I’m looking at TLN’s recommended spells + cheesy spells in core D&D 3.5 from his classic guide (plus a few he didn’t mention) and seeing what changed (and what didn’t) in Pathfinder. [Maybe later I’ll look at the spells in Pathfinder that you won’t find in core 3.5. If it has a non-core 3.5 counterpart I’ll compare those; otherwise I’ll judge the new spell on its own merits.] I’m not as good at optimizing as, say, Doc Roc, but I do consider myself an optimizer, so this guide comes from that frame of mind. I’m also somewhat ambivalent on 3.5/Pathfinder, so hopefully I won’t come off as too partisan either way. I may have overlooked some key details, so this list is open for debate/correction. Bolded are the spells whose changes or lack of changes I think are most important.
Level 1:-Alarm: Unchanged. By the time this covers the entire night you have Rope Trick.
-Protection from X: Nerfed, the subject of mental control needs to pass a new save to suppress the control. It still has its uses, but you’d really rather the cleric prepare it.
-Shield: Basically unchanged.
-Grease: Nerfed, doesn’t force saves after the first turn, and those who don’t move aren’t flat-footed (sorry, Mr. Rogue). Changes to cross-class skills also makes the required movement checks easier. Much less useful, but still pretty good.
-Mage Armor: Unchanged.
-Mount: Unchanged. Outside of con artist shenanigans, not that great.
-Identify: Changed/buffed. In PF, you can use Detect Magic + Spellcraft to identify all your stuff; this spell just gives you a +10 to that check, and you don’t need the pearl. I see this as removing a pointless magic item tax on the whole party, but some could see this as a wizard buff.
-True Strike: Unchanged.
-Charm Person: Unchanged, and still an incredible spell for the level. City campaigns beware.
-Sleep: Unchanged. Like before, great at low levels, dropped at higher levels.
-Color Spray: Unchanged. See Sleep.
-Silent Image: Unchanged. It’s still essentially powered by player creativity, which means it can be too good for a first level spell, but mainly for fun reasons IMO.
-Ray of Enfeeblement: Nerfed, offers a save. Not worth taking any more.
-Enlarge Person: Nerfed, size bonuses are smaller, and the STR bonus is only +2. Most people take this for reach, though, and it still gives you that.Verdict: Color Spray and Sleep still dominate 1st and 2nd level play, but some of the best first level spells for later levels – namely Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease and Protection from Evil – dropped in value (except Grease is actually better at level one, since it’s min/level instead of rounds/level now). I’d start thinking of creative uses for Silent Image.
Level 2:-Glitterdust: Nerfed, allows repeated saves to un-blind. Unless you expect a lot of hiding and invisibility, it’s not really worth preparing any more.
-Web: Nerfed, no effect on a save (except difficult terrain) and grants a ‘grappled’ condition otherwise, which is easier to escape from in PF due to the way combat maneuvers work.
-Detect Thoughts: Unchanged.
-See Invisibility: Unchanged.
-Shatter: Unchanged. Still good, but if you’re banning evocation, usually not worth two spell slots.
-Mirror Image: Nerfed, near misses still destroy figments, and targeted spells ignore the miss chance. Only borderline useful now.
-Invisibility: Unchanged.
-Bull's Strength: Unchanged.
-Rope Trick: Nerfed, can’t pull up the rope. Still better than Alarm.
-Alter Self: Big nerf. Can only get a very limited list of abilities. Borderline useful now.
-Flaming Sphere: Buffed, now 3d6 per round.
-Pyrotechnics: Unchanged.Verdict: Batman’s second level stars were heavily nerfed. Given Flaming Sphere’s buff, you might actually resort to direct damage + utility at this level.
Level 3:-Dispel Magic: Nerfed. No area dispel (except for dispelling area effects), and targeted dispel gets rid of at most one effect, like area dispel did before. On the plus side, the wording is clearer, you can choose to target a specific effect, there’s no listed CL cap, and the process is generally more expedient. Still, I see much less combat applicability here.
-Magic Circle Against X: Changed, Prot-from-X nerfs carry over
-Protection from Energy: Unchanged
-Phantom Steed: Unchanged. I never liked relying on PS because it’s so easily one-shotted.
-Stinking Cloud: Unchanged.
-Deep Slumber: Unchanged.
-Wind Wall: Unchanged. See Shatter.
-Ray of Exhaustion: Unchanged, but half the fun was splitting it after a Ray of Enfeeblement, neither of which are available. Still very solid.
-Vampiric Touch: Mostly unchanged.
-Fly: Mostly unchanged. Requires the fly skill to do some aerial stuff that was automatic before, so a slight nerf.
-Haste: Unchanged. Great spell. Group buffs aren’t going to imbalance much, though.
-Magic Weapon, Greater: Unchanged.
-Slow: Basically unchanged.
-Sleet Storm: Unchanged. I find it’s more situational than treantmonk thinks.Verdict: Dispel didn’t really need the nerf, but Stinking Cloud/Slow did, and Fly should probably be fourth level. All in all, once you get out of the 1-4 level woods, it appears the Pathfinder wizard keeps his old tricks. Let’s see if that trend continues.
Level 4:-Polymorph: This whole line was nerfed.
-Dimensional Anchor: Unchanged.
-Black Tentacles: Nerfed due to changes in size bonuses and the way combat maneuvers work. Unless you’re facing the Lollipop Guild, it’s not going to end the encounter like it did in 3.5
-Dimension Door: Unchanged.
-Resilient Sphere: Buffed slightly, rod of negation no longer explicitly negates the sphere. Otherwise unchanged.
-Solid Fog: Nerfed, grants half movement now. So you force a standard humanoid to double move out of the solid fog, trading your action for his. Still okay situationally, but not the action-denying powerhouse it used to be.
-Confusion: Slightly nerfed, higher chance of affected creature acting normally. It’s still a great spell, and still very likely to cause enemies to attack each other repeatedly and subsequently end encounters.
-Greater Invisibility: Unchanged.
-Enervation: Nerfed, casters don’t lose spell slots for negative levels. That was half the fun of the spell, though not half the power. I guess they wanted to protect casting BBEGs? It’s still good, especially with metamagic.
-Fear: Unchanged.
-Scrying: Unchanged.Verdict: A lot of good offense was nerfed, and the encounter enders that went relatively unscathed (confusion and fear) are mind-affecting and offer a will save. That starts becoming a serious limitation around these levels. Utility spells remained intact for the most part. Most importantly, Polymorph was nerfed.
Level 5:-Teleport: Unchanged.
-Wall of Stone: Unchanged.
-Telepathic Bond: Unchanged.
-Prying Eyes: Unchanged.
-Dominate Person: Unchanged. Once again, city campaigns beware.
-Feeblemind: Unchanged.
-Hold Monster: Unchanged.
-Shadow Evocation: Unchanged.
-Baleful Polymorph: Nerfed, you might have turned him into a squirrel, but he is a SUPER SQUIRREL with full class features; if a caster passes the secondary will save, you have a squirrel caster. Right, what was the point of that single target fort save spell again?
-Overland Flight: Mostly unchanged, see Fly.
-Telekinesis: You can still grapple ghosts. That’s all I care about.
-Wall of Force: Unchanged.
-Contact Other Plane: Basically Unchanged.
-Planar Binding, Lesser: Unchanged.Verdict: Basically the same spell list as in 3.5, sans Baleful. Since this includes the beginning of the Planar Binding line, I’d start to worry or salivate, depending on which side of the DM screen you’re on.
Level 6:-Dispel Magic, Greater: Slightly nerfed; doesn’t suffer from Dispel Magic’s limitations, but there’s a cap of one spell removed per four caster levels. Still no CL cap, though. As opposed to Dispel Magic, this one can be quite useful.
-Repulsion: Unchanged.
-Acid Fog: Nerfs to Solid Fog carry over.
-True Seeing: Unchanged.
-Heroism, Greater: Unchanged.
-Contingency: Indirect buff, since you can have this up even if you ban evocation. Otherwise unchanged.
-Disintegrate: Unchanged.
-Planar Binding: Essentially unchanged.Verdict: A 3.5 wizard and a PF wizard are going to have very similar 6th level spells, which once again can be quite worrisome given Planar Binding.
Level 7:-Banishment: Basically unchanged.
-Teleport, Greater: Unchanged.
-Arcane Sight, Greater: Basically unchanged – lets you identify, just like detect magic.
-Forcecage: Nerfed, explicitly states hardness and hit points, which while large, can be broken through by a determined enemy. Worse, it only lasts rounds/level, and allows a reflex save(???) On the plus side, costs 500gp instead of 1500gp.
-Finger of Death: Nerfed, doesn’t auto-kill on a failed save. Then again, were you going to use a fort save or die on the kind of creature who has more than 10*CL hit points?
-Ethereal Jaunt: Unchanged.
-Limited Wish: Changed, costs 1500gp instead of 300xp.
-Spell Turning: Unchanged, except the errata that puts the 100gp component back in.
-Simulacrum: Changed, costs 500gp per HD instead of 100GP+100XP per HD.Verdict: The crazy spells of this level, Limited Wish and Simulacrum, arguably got buffed due to the elimination of XP costs.
Level 8:-Mind Blank: Nerfed, gives a +8 bonus to saving throws against mind affecting instead of flat-out immunity. Still blocks divinations.
-Maze: Unchanged.
-Moment of Prescience: Unchanged.
-Greater Prying Eyes: Unchanged.
-Irresistible Dance: Nerfed, will save reduces duration to 1 round.
-Power Word Stun: Unchanged.
-Greater Shadow Evocation: Unchanged, but less useful with new specialization rules.
-Polymorph any Object: The whole line was nerfed.
-Planar Binding, Greater: This whole line was ignored.Verdict: For a second I thought Paizo had stopped looking through the higher level spells, but then Mind Blank and Irresistible Dance get nerfed. This limits Mr. Wizard’s options a little, but he still has a bunch of incredible stuff to do, including breaking the game with 18 HD outsiders.
Level 9:-Prismatic Sphere: Unchanged.
-Foresight: Unchanged.
-Dominate Monster: Unchanged.
-Time Stop: Unchanged.
-Shapechange: This whole line was nerfed.
-Disjunction: Fixed somewhat. Mostly just suppresses magic items in combat, though there is a chance of negating them for good. Still has the crazy artifact stuff.
-Gate: Nerfed, can’t control creatures with HD > CL of HD > 2*CL. Still ridiculously good, and the XP costs are replaced by gp costs.
-Wish: Somewhat nerfed, can’t duplicate magic items without the wish-twisting clause coming into effect. 25K GP instead of the XP costs. Verdict: They thought to change gate, but were too lazy to do anything but lower the HD limit. Really. At least Shapechange doesn’t wreck everything.
TL;DR version: Polymorph got nerfed, low level spells got nerfed, mid level spells got completely ignored, and not enough high level spells got nerfed to make a difference.
I’m looking at TLN’s recommended spells + cheesy spells in core D&D 3.5 from his classic guide (plus a few he didn’t mention) and seeing what changed (and what didn’t) in Pathfinder. [Maybe later I’ll look at the spells in Pathfinder that you won’t find in core 3.5. If it has a non-core 3.5 counterpart I’ll compare those; otherwise I’ll judge the new spell on its own merits.] I’m not as good at optimizing as, say, Doc Roc, but I do consider myself an optimizer, so this guide comes from that frame of mind. I’m also somewhat ambivalent on 3.5/Pathfinder, so hopefully I won’t come off as too partisan either way. I may have overlooked some key details, so this list is open for debate/correction. Bolded are the spells whose changes or lack of changes I think are most important.
Level 1:-Alarm: Unchanged. By the time this covers the entire night you have Rope Trick.
-Protection from X: Nerfed, the subject of mental control needs to pass a new save to suppress the control. It still has its uses, but you’d really rather the cleric prepare it.
-Shield: Basically unchanged.
-Grease: Nerfed, doesn’t force saves after the first turn, and those who don’t move aren’t flat-footed (sorry, Mr. Rogue). Changes to cross-class skills also makes the required movement checks easier. Much less useful, but still pretty good.
-Mage Armor: Unchanged.
-Mount: Unchanged. Outside of con artist shenanigans, not that great.
-Identify: Changed/buffed. In PF, you can use Detect Magic + Spellcraft to identify all your stuff; this spell just gives you a +10 to that check, and you don’t need the pearl. I see this as removing a pointless magic item tax on the whole party, but some could see this as a wizard buff.
-True Strike: Unchanged.
-Charm Person: Unchanged, and still an incredible spell for the level. City campaigns beware.
-Sleep: Unchanged. Like before, great at low levels, dropped at higher levels.
-Color Spray: Unchanged. See Sleep.
-Silent Image: Unchanged. It’s still essentially powered by player creativity, which means it can be too good for a first level spell, but mainly for fun reasons IMO.
-Ray of Enfeeblement: Nerfed, offers a save. Not worth taking any more.
-Enlarge Person: Nerfed, size bonuses are smaller, and the STR bonus is only +2. Most people take this for reach, though, and it still gives you that.Verdict: Color Spray and Sleep still dominate 1st and 2nd level play, but some of the best first level spells for later levels – namely Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease and Protection from Evil – dropped in value (except Grease is actually better at level one, since it’s min/level instead of rounds/level now). I’d start thinking of creative uses for Silent Image.
Level 2:-Glitterdust: Nerfed, allows repeated saves to un-blind. Unless you expect a lot of hiding and invisibility, it’s not really worth preparing any more.
-Web: Nerfed, no effect on a save (except difficult terrain) and grants a ‘grappled’ condition otherwise, which is easier to escape from in PF due to the way combat maneuvers work.
-Detect Thoughts: Unchanged.
-See Invisibility: Unchanged.
-Shatter: Unchanged. Still good, but if you’re banning evocation, usually not worth two spell slots.
-Mirror Image: Nerfed, near misses still destroy figments, and targeted spells ignore the miss chance. Only borderline useful now.
-Invisibility: Unchanged.
-Bull's Strength: Unchanged.
-Rope Trick: Nerfed, can’t pull up the rope. Still better than Alarm.
-Alter Self: Big nerf. Can only get a very limited list of abilities. Borderline useful now.
-Flaming Sphere: Buffed, now 3d6 per round.
-Pyrotechnics: Unchanged.Verdict: Batman’s second level stars were heavily nerfed. Given Flaming Sphere’s buff, you might actually resort to direct damage + utility at this level.
Level 3:-Dispel Magic: Nerfed. No area dispel (except for dispelling area effects), and targeted dispel gets rid of at most one effect, like area dispel did before. On the plus side, the wording is clearer, you can choose to target a specific effect, there’s no listed CL cap, and the process is generally more expedient. Still, I see much less combat applicability here.
-Magic Circle Against X: Changed, Prot-from-X nerfs carry over
-Protection from Energy: Unchanged
-Phantom Steed: Unchanged. I never liked relying on PS because it’s so easily one-shotted.
-Stinking Cloud: Unchanged.
-Deep Slumber: Unchanged.
-Wind Wall: Unchanged. See Shatter.
-Ray of Exhaustion: Unchanged, but half the fun was splitting it after a Ray of Enfeeblement, neither of which are available. Still very solid.
-Vampiric Touch: Mostly unchanged.
-Fly: Mostly unchanged. Requires the fly skill to do some aerial stuff that was automatic before, so a slight nerf.
-Haste: Unchanged. Great spell. Group buffs aren’t going to imbalance much, though.
-Magic Weapon, Greater: Unchanged.
-Slow: Basically unchanged.
-Sleet Storm: Unchanged. I find it’s more situational than treantmonk thinks.Verdict: Dispel didn’t really need the nerf, but Stinking Cloud/Slow did, and Fly should probably be fourth level. All in all, once you get out of the 1-4 level woods, it appears the Pathfinder wizard keeps his old tricks. Let’s see if that trend continues.
Level 4:-Polymorph: This whole line was nerfed.
-Dimensional Anchor: Unchanged.
-Black Tentacles: Nerfed due to changes in size bonuses and the way combat maneuvers work. Unless you’re facing the Lollipop Guild, it’s not going to end the encounter like it did in 3.5
-Dimension Door: Unchanged.
-Resilient Sphere: Buffed slightly, rod of negation no longer explicitly negates the sphere. Otherwise unchanged.
-Solid Fog: Nerfed, grants half movement now. So you force a standard humanoid to double move out of the solid fog, trading your action for his. Still okay situationally, but not the action-denying powerhouse it used to be.
-Confusion: Slightly nerfed, higher chance of affected creature acting normally. It’s still a great spell, and still very likely to cause enemies to attack each other repeatedly and subsequently end encounters.
-Greater Invisibility: Unchanged.
-Enervation: Nerfed, casters don’t lose spell slots for negative levels. That was half the fun of the spell, though not half the power. I guess they wanted to protect casting BBEGs? It’s still good, especially with metamagic.
-Fear: Unchanged.
-Scrying: Unchanged.Verdict: A lot of good offense was nerfed, and the encounter enders that went relatively unscathed (confusion and fear) are mind-affecting and offer a will save. That starts becoming a serious limitation around these levels. Utility spells remained intact for the most part. Most importantly, Polymorph was nerfed.
Level 5:-Teleport: Unchanged.
-Wall of Stone: Unchanged.
-Telepathic Bond: Unchanged.
-Prying Eyes: Unchanged.
-Dominate Person: Unchanged. Once again, city campaigns beware.
-Feeblemind: Unchanged.
-Hold Monster: Unchanged.
-Shadow Evocation: Unchanged.
-Baleful Polymorph: Nerfed, you might have turned him into a squirrel, but he is a SUPER SQUIRREL with full class features; if a caster passes the secondary will save, you have a squirrel caster. Right, what was the point of that single target fort save spell again?
-Overland Flight: Mostly unchanged, see Fly.
-Telekinesis: You can still grapple ghosts. That’s all I care about.
-Wall of Force: Unchanged.
-Contact Other Plane: Basically Unchanged.
-Planar Binding, Lesser: Unchanged.Verdict: Basically the same spell list as in 3.5, sans Baleful. Since this includes the beginning of the Planar Binding line, I’d start to worry or salivate, depending on which side of the DM screen you’re on.
Level 6:-Dispel Magic, Greater: Slightly nerfed; doesn’t suffer from Dispel Magic’s limitations, but there’s a cap of one spell removed per four caster levels. Still no CL cap, though. As opposed to Dispel Magic, this one can be quite useful.
-Repulsion: Unchanged.
-Acid Fog: Nerfs to Solid Fog carry over.
-True Seeing: Unchanged.
-Heroism, Greater: Unchanged.
-Contingency: Indirect buff, since you can have this up even if you ban evocation. Otherwise unchanged.
-Disintegrate: Unchanged.
-Planar Binding: Essentially unchanged.Verdict: A 3.5 wizard and a PF wizard are going to have very similar 6th level spells, which once again can be quite worrisome given Planar Binding.
Level 7:-Banishment: Basically unchanged.
-Teleport, Greater: Unchanged.
-Arcane Sight, Greater: Basically unchanged – lets you identify, just like detect magic.
-Forcecage: Nerfed, explicitly states hardness and hit points, which while large, can be broken through by a determined enemy. Worse, it only lasts rounds/level, and allows a reflex save(???) On the plus side, costs 500gp instead of 1500gp.
-Finger of Death: Nerfed, doesn’t auto-kill on a failed save. Then again, were you going to use a fort save or die on the kind of creature who has more than 10*CL hit points?
-Ethereal Jaunt: Unchanged.
-Limited Wish: Changed, costs 1500gp instead of 300xp.
-Spell Turning: Unchanged, except the errata that puts the 100gp component back in.
-Simulacrum: Changed, costs 500gp per HD instead of 100GP+100XP per HD.Verdict: The crazy spells of this level, Limited Wish and Simulacrum, arguably got buffed due to the elimination of XP costs.
Level 8:-Mind Blank: Nerfed, gives a +8 bonus to saving throws against mind affecting instead of flat-out immunity. Still blocks divinations.
-Maze: Unchanged.
-Moment of Prescience: Unchanged.
-Greater Prying Eyes: Unchanged.
-Irresistible Dance: Nerfed, will save reduces duration to 1 round.
-Power Word Stun: Unchanged.
-Greater Shadow Evocation: Unchanged, but less useful with new specialization rules.
-Polymorph any Object: The whole line was nerfed.
-Planar Binding, Greater: This whole line was ignored.Verdict: For a second I thought Paizo had stopped looking through the higher level spells, but then Mind Blank and Irresistible Dance get nerfed. This limits Mr. Wizard’s options a little, but he still has a bunch of incredible stuff to do, including breaking the game with 18 HD outsiders.
Level 9:-Prismatic Sphere: Unchanged.
-Foresight: Unchanged.
-Dominate Monster: Unchanged.
-Time Stop: Unchanged.
-Shapechange: This whole line was nerfed.
-Disjunction: Fixed somewhat. Mostly just suppresses magic items in combat, though there is a chance of negating them for good. Still has the crazy artifact stuff.
-Gate: Nerfed, can’t control creatures with HD > CL of HD > 2*CL. Still ridiculously good, and the XP costs are replaced by gp costs.
-Wish: Somewhat nerfed, can’t duplicate magic items without the wish-twisting clause coming into effect. 25K GP instead of the XP costs. Verdict: They thought to change gate, but were too lazy to do anything but lower the HD limit. Really. At least Shapechange doesn’t wreck everything.