[3.5] How many extra ability points does a paladin need...

[with an e]

..over a standard point buy fighter to be roughly as effective as a fighter? Assume a human under core rules.

It's inspired by strip 791 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0791.html) and the various comments on Miko's effectiveness in the OotS strip. I'm just trying to get a rough idea of the ability point advantage that characters like Roy and Miko would likely have, so no need to be over the top with optimization, but I would appreciate some explanations on how these extra points would be allocated.

[Doc Roc]

Not to be a pessimist, but ability scores are not the best balancing factor nor are fighters perhaps the best balancing point.

[Incanur]

On average, paladins keep up fine with fighters at your standard 25 points. Less than that might change things, but I consider paladins tier 4 myself, especially with Complete Champion.

[Greenish]

Core-only, neither's very good. With splats, both improve a bit. There isn't a great gap between the two.

[Seerow]

Honestly when you throw in some of the Paladin exclusive spell compendium spells, I'd be inclined to put the Paladin ahead of the Fighter. If you really feel it's too weak, give it a few extra spells per day per spell level, rather than more ability points.

[Greenish]

Honestly when you throw in some of the Paladin exclusive spell compendium spells, I'd be inclined to put the Paladin ahead of the Fighter.Fighter has neat ACFs, on the other hand, and with all the splats, you don't run out of feats to take so soon.

[navar100]

32 points

Paladins are a MAD class. 32 points provide the minimum for a "decent" array.
A fighter could use 32 points as well but can get by with 28.

[with an e]

Hmmm, interesting. You can tell that I don't actually play the game, just have some interest from the strip. Reading from this tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) I found, how about compared to a barbarian or ranger, then? (Come to think of it, isn't ranger also a MAD class?)

[Incanur]

In tier terms, the core full BAB classes aren't far apart. Barbarian and perhaps ranger do their jobs the best, but it's not a huge difference.

[Greenish]

I'm not sure giving more ability points is a good way to balance classes, though obviously it can be used to help the MAD ones.

Isn't PF paladin tier 4? PF paladin (with normal turning) in 3.5 game with splats should be, at the very least.

[T.G. Oskar]

Well; while comparing a Paladin with a Fighter in terms of ability scores isn't the healthiest (so to speak), it's better to understand it this way:

The Fighter can do pretty well with two scores (Strength and Constitution) and decently well with three (Strength, Dexterity and Constitution). A Paladin requires at least four stats to be useful (Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, Charisma). So a Paladin needs to deal with two more scores than Fighter.

With a point-buy of 25 (the supposed average), you can get four scores at 14 (which is decent in terms of scores, also leaves 1 point remaining)), three scores at 15 (1 point remaining), or two scores at 16 (and 4 points remaining) without spreading your points too thin. A fighter can do exceptionally well with 25 point buy (if you know how to go with it), while a Paladin can only do marginally well (because your points will be pretty spread up).

With a point buy of 28 (the preferred choice), you can get four scores at 14 (with 4 points remaining), three scores at 15 (with 4 points remaining), two scores at 16 (with 8 points remaining, so you can take a 3rd stat to 15th), two stats at 17th (with 1 point remaining), or one stat at the maximum of 18th (with 12 points remaining for the rest). Since you need at best 14-16 con, a Fighter with 28 pb can go straight for STR 18 and do well, while a Paladin still struggles. However, a Paladin has a bit more leverage: Wisdom only requires a 14, so you can take the remaining 4 points and spread them on Strength, Constitution or Charisma.

With a point buy of 32 (the usual highest), you can get five scores at 14 (with 2 points remaining), 4 scores at 15 (but no remainder), 3 stats at 16 (with 2 points remaining), 2 stats at 17 (with 6 points remaining), and 2 stats at the maximum of 18 (with no remainder). In this case, a Fighter can do pretty well with Strength and Constitution alone (or full Strength and balanced Dex/Con), while a Paladin reaches a degree of normalcy (two stats at 16, Wisdom and Constitution at 14th).

As a final reminder, you want your stats to reach even numbers more often than not. Hence, your starting ability scores should generally be even. Thus, while a Fighter can reach even scores (and thus, better ability modifiers, hence more bonuses) faster, a Paladin struggles with those same points because their bonuses are diffused a bit wider. This is what's known as "Multiple Ability Dependency".

Of course: the reason why they're bad comparisons? A Wizard (read: Vaarsuvius) only needs ONE good stat (Intelligence), so even with 25 point buy the Wizard does exceptionally well. The Cleric (such as Durkon) requires a bit more (some Charisma so that he can use Turn Undead a bit more), but aside from that it only needs Wisdom. That is known as Single Ability Dependency.

So, now you know about SAD and MAD. And knowing is half the battle!

Miko's case is borderline worse. Miko needs (well, needed) all four scores that all Paladins need, but she applied her Wisdom a bit more. Since she wore heavy armor (the blessed full plate of the Sapphire Order), she couldn't add her Wisdom bonus to her Armor Class, but she could add it if she was armor-less. Being a Monk, however, she adds yet another important stat, which is Dexterity; Monks are just as MAD as Paladins because they need good Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom scores. You need to consider that Miko probably has all good ability scores, since she could then have good Intelligence and gain some specific feats (such as Two-Weapon Fighting, which requires a good Dexterity score, and Combat Expertise which requires a decent Intelligence score), probably all above 16.

In the case of Roy, he has proper Strength, but also a great degree of Intelligence (which is more of a character trait). However, since Fighters rarely use Intelligence (unless they wish to qualify for Combat Expertise or get more skills to use), such a degree of intellect is meaningless. Meanwhile, Thog has two big points to his favor: one, the Barbarian uses Strength and Constitution usually better than the norm, and second, its Rage ability further increases Strength and Constitution. This may lead to something (Thog does mention he only needs Strength, meaning he may have poor Constitution which only increases when raging), but in general, Thog in terms of gameplay has an edge over Roy. Roy's advantage really consists of...well, his feat choices, which probably means Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, which in gameplay are generally poor choices (really poor choices, unless you get Improved Critical with specific weapons and even then it's not the best choice).

Now, do consider that the world of Order of the Stick runs on plot, and not on mechanics. What happens in the world isn't usually what happens on most of the game tables, and more often than not someone like Roy would already have a prestige class, a very ridiculous build such as the chain tripper (which he defeated; you know, the big ogre with the chain that says "I'm unbeatable" before he falls down a chasm?), or already replaced by something else. In the case of the Paladin, this is doubly worse because they suffer from MAD, a lack of feat slots (the Fighter has 18 slots to cover with many feats, the Paladin has between 7 to 11 slots depending on whether it sacrifices its spellcasting ability or not), gains all of their best abilities in the first few levels, and generally can't do more than the Fighter could (or a Barbarian, or a Ranger because they can do more than just fight). A Paladin could be a proper user of Diplomacy, but aside from that its only forte is combat, and in that case they aren't so diverse as the Ranger.

Regarding the tier list of Jaron, the Paladin and the Fighter are tier 5 because they can't do many things. A Fighter...well, fights well, but it can't do things outside of battle such as scout (can't Listen or Spot real well), be the party face (can't use Bluff or Diplomacy real well), search for hazards and disarm traps, heal, etc. The Paladin can do a bit more (with Diplomacy and Sense Motive as class skills and a focus on Charisma a Paladin COULD be a party face, but not as well as the Bard or Beguiler do) and do other things slightly better than the Fighter but not as the others (such as heal, which the Fighter can't by itself but the Cleric overwhelms, or buffing which the Cleric also does well), it doesn't have the flexibility in combat that a Fighter gets (because of feat starving), and it still has problems such as an inability to scout or search/disarm traps. A Barbarian, on the other hand, is phenomenal in combat but also can be a good scout (fast movement meaning it can move better than other classes, plus it has Listen) and trap-disarmer (it has Trap Sense so it can resist traps better, plus it has the best trap-disarmer in the game, which is a greataxe or greatsword and loads of Strength), the skill list is a bit more diverse (Listen, Survival and Handle Animal means it can listen well, survive in wilderness conditions and teach animals some tricks), and it's generally very, VERY good at what it does (fighting). The ranger is a great scout (Listen and Spot), decent in combat, but the key is the spell list which is very good. With stuff like Longstrider (better movement) or Freedom of Movement (nothing can stop you, pretty much, except a few spells), they can do stuff that Fighters and Paladins simply can't do.

IMO, Paladins should be a low Tier 4 because of the spell list AND because they can do decent party faces, but the only reason they aren't is because they could use some more feats alongside their spellcasting (not sacrificing it); then again, this is biased opinion at its very best. Fighters only reach Tier 4 with Dungeon Crasher (because of what it offers), but the Paladin also has good ACFs (Divine Spirit comes to mind; you may also claim Underdark Hunter); it's the feat slots that kill the Paladin. Heck, replace Remove Disease with bonus feats and you'll single-handedly raise the Paladin one tier (more or less, depending on whether you allow divine feats or not).

In any case; if this is too complex for the OP, feel free to ask and I'll...attempt to make it simpler. Or, if someone wants to make it simpler enough (without attempting to fix what I say, thank you very much...), be my guest.

[Incanur]

The Fighter can do pretty well with two scores (Strength and Constitution) and decently well with three (Strength, Dexterity and Constitution). A Paladin requires at least four stats to be useful (Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, Charisma). So a Paladin needs to deal with two more scores than Fighter.

Paladins don't need much Wis to be effective, and can ignore Cha if they take the feat Serenity.


A fighter can do exceptionally well with 25 point buy (if you know how to go with it), while a Paladin can only do marginally well (because your points will be pretty spread up).

You're overestimating the importance of stats versus class features. An extra +1 to hit and damage and few more hp for the fighter doesn't mean so much.

[Jude_H]

(Come to think of it, isn't ranger also a MAD class?)
A class only Depends on high ability scores if it doesn't have class features to back them up.

A melee Radiant Servant of Pelor has abilities and needs based on pretty much every stat (Str for attack/damage/armor, Con for saves/hp/concentration, Wis for spells, Cha for turning, at least decent Dex for initiative and soaking Ref saves and a decent Int for the 2 prerequisite skills and Concentration), but Cleric Spellcasting is just so good that it's still one of the better melee builds.

In contrast, a Monk has abilities based on nearly every stat (Str/Dex/Con for fighting, Wisdom to make up for AC, Int to have something to do outside combat), but it doesn't have class features to back it up if it's deficient in any of those areas.

[Greenish]

A class only Depends on high ability scores if it doesn't have class features to back them up.I should think that class depends on a score if it needs said score to function. Ranger is slightly MAD. Casters are SAD because casting is the only thing they really need.

[Incanur]

If you want something approximating a SAD paladin, take Serenity and Intuitive Attack. There's even Zen Archery if needed!

[Greenish]

If you want something approximating a SAD paladin, take Serenity and Intuitive Attack.Meh, Intuitive Attack only works on unarmed and simple weapons, and does nothing to your damage.

Now, Shiba Protector, that's something, even if it costs quite a few feats.

I had a build planned once that got Wis to AC (in any armour), Wis to Saves (+Evasion & Mettle), Wis to attack, Wis to damage and other miscellaneous stuff. It was a decidedly low OP build though, and took a bit to get together (had all but Mettle at ECL 9).

[T.G. Oskar]

Paladins don't need much Wis to be effective, and can ignore Cha if they take the feat Serenity.

No less than 11, no more than 14. Since the idea is to prevent odd numbers in ability scores, the Wis range should be between 12-14 to be effective (12 to cast Paladin spells at 4th level, 14 as maximum). So they need some Wis to be effective, and on point-buy, that's 4-6 points out of the total.

So yeah, Wis is sorta needed. Usually a tertiary score, but still needed. Unless you're not going for Paladin spellcasting...

Also: remember Serenity is from Dragon Magazine. There's few chances that such a feat is approved in-play, so while possible, it's not usually recommendable. Besides, most people choose to dip Paladin just to get Divine Grace, so spending that + a feat to make it Wis-based instead of Cha-based makes it a bit stringent. Finally, while the MIC (and heck, the DMG itself) eases this, it's easier to raise Charisma than Wisdom (Cloak of Charisma vs. Cloak of Resistance doesn't compare to Periapt of Wisdom vs. Amulet of Health vs. Amulet of Natural Armor).


You're overestimating the importance of stats versus class features. An extra +1 to hit and damage and few more hp for the fighter doesn't mean so much.

Not really. What I mean is that the Fighter can max its main scores easier than the Paladin does.

For starters: a good Strength with a two-hander begs to differ. What you may perceive as a +1 to attack may be a difference of up to 3 points with Power Attack, which is a hard bargain. We're dealing with feats on this one, but it shows a very specific thing; in terms of Strength, you usually want more. Barbarian blows Fighter out of the water with Rage, but the Fighter can at least counter with many feats to reach Shock Trooper faster.

Second: while having a Str and Con of 16 compared to Str/Con 14 for the Paladin may not seem much, in point-buy it means a lot. You can have the same score as the Paladin does AND add it to other scores that are a prerequisite for other feats (Int for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, or Wisdom for Combat Focus feats) which would be a nightmare for the Paladin to get (well, Combat Expertise and Improved Trip anyways). Or good Dex for Two-Weapon Fighting and balance Strength and Dexterity for proper attack bonuses, decent damage and using two weapons with heavy armor if that's your game.

So, in reality, if Strength and Constitution were equal between the Fighter and the Paladin, the Fighter has several points to spare on a third score which it may use for access to other feats which may be a bit difficult to get for the Paladin (again, because of the scarcity of feat slots). The fact that the Fighter can have better Strength and Constitution than the Paladin and STILL get enough points for TWF or Imp. Trip (for chain tripper build) or Combat Form feats means more than the +1 to attack and damage rolls (which can be gained by Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, of course). And recall that to be pretty decent, you need usually between 16-18 on your primary score, something the Paladin's MAD usually doesn't allow; this may seem a bit off, but when you work with Strength checks to break locks or trip/grapple checks, you notice that ability scores ARE more important than they seem. Even if it's an extra point of bonus.

[FMArthur]

You're overestimating the importance of stats versus class features. An extra +1 to hit and damage and few more hp for the fighter doesn't mean so much.

Hey, every +1 counts when the most popular styles sacrifice Attack Bonus to work (Power Attack and TWF). A Power Attacker who never hits is a nonentity in battle. Restricting a TWF Fighter's ability scores is also painful, since they are almost as MAD as Monks - and with a lower point buy, they're more likely to replicate the Monk's Flurry of Misses class feature.

[Cog]

It's possible to get Paladin down to nearly just Strength and Constitution. Warforged racial subs lets you swap a number of Cha abilities to Con, and you can trade spellcasting for bonus feats - mainly for Extra Turning, to fuel spamming of Devotion feats. You do lose out on some good spells and you add Con to your Will saves only, so it's not perfect.

[Incanur]

Meh, Intuitive Attack only works on unarmed and simple weapons, and does nothing to your damage.

I never said it was great idea. :smallwink:


Also: remember Serenity is from Dragon Magazine. There's few chances that such a feat is approved in-play, so while possible, it's not usually recommendable.

They included it in Dragon Magazine Compendium, so I figure it's fair game in many groups.


Not really.

I understood your post as claiming the MADness difference makes the fighter superior to the paladin under lower point buys. A few extra points in Str and/or Con undoubtedly helps the fighter over the paladin, but not enough to pull ahead. For example, fighters don't have dire lions as a class feature; mounts are relatively better the lower the point buy. And the fighter who neglects Wis needs either Steadfast Determination or that ACF from Complete Champion to avoid having a huge vulnerability.


Hey, every +1 counts when the most popular styles sacrifice Attack Bonus to work (Power Attack and TWF).

Absolutely, it just doesn't count enough to outweigh the smites, spells, saving bonus, healing, and mount/charging smite ACF.

[T.G. Oskar]

They included it in Dragon Magazine Compendium, so I figure it's fair game in many groups.

Not necessarily. Few people have access to Dragon Compendium; those who do are probably already using Dragon Magazine and probably a few other books (Iron Heroes, Pathfinder, Dragonlance) so the options open up. Then again, there are other groups that bar Unearthed Arcana from entry, so really, YMMV. And if you wish to err on the safe side, you have to consider that it's not really accessible. You have a safer chance to have something from the 3.5 Wizards' site before something from Dragon magazine (that hasn't been uploaded to the latter books such as Spell Compendium) is accepted.

So it's, once again, erring on the side of safe.


I understood your post as claiming the MADness difference makes the fighter superior to the paladin under lower point buys. A few extra points in Str and/or Con undoubtedly helps the fighter over the paladin, but not enough to pull ahead. For example, fighters don't have dire lions as a class feature; mounts are relatively better the lower the point buy. And the fighter who neglects Wis needs either Steadfast Determination or that ACF from Complete Champion to avoid having a huge vulnerability.

Actually, you...can get a dire lion as a mount without a class feature. Heck, IIRC, you can get it as a feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) (and remember, if you can get Serenity to your table, there's a bigger chance you can get this feat). And it also progresses, just not as fast as the special mount (or maybe it DOES?). And you still need good ability scores for it: good Strength for attack rolls, good Dexterity for the Ride checks, probably good Charisma for the Handle Animal checks...

Of course, neglecting Will saves may seem a lot...except only two spells really threaten low Will saves (Glitterdust and Slow). The rest are blocked by Protection from Evil, which isn't really that hard to get (but then we're speaking of Wealth by Level, which is yet another thing to work with and that really equalizes the Fighter and the Paladin in terms of what they can do). And Steadfast Determination works pretty well for those few cases, or even better, Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind) and a high Concentration skill bonus, something the Fighter can afford. So Wis isn't really THAT important, compared to Dexterity or even Intelligence. Charisma, of course, is definitely a dump stat (the only thing it really affects is Intimidate, but you can get skill checks pretty high enough).


Absolutely, it just doesn't count enough to outweigh the smites, spells, saving bonus, healing, and mount/charging smite ACF.

Bull Rush requires good Strength. Grapple (and escaping from it) requires good Strength. Disarm requires good Strength. Trip requires good Strength. Both the Fighter and the Paladin can do so, but the Fighter has a better chance to pull it off, and for those abilities (especially Trip, which is the best of them all) you need every point you can get. Consider the fact that you need two more scores to get something over the Fighter (smites only add to your attack bonus, but if you can already hit you don't suffer that much; you don't need enough to cast spells, the saving bonus is definitely the best of the bunch, the healing is hard to work with and will usually be lower than a Heal spell, and the mount/charging smite usually requires having good scores in Strength), while the Fighter can simply go full Strength and benefit from slightly more than the Paladin because it doesn't have to diversify.

That doesn't mean the Paladin isn't great (it certainly can be better than the Fighter in some cases), but the Fighter is simpler regarding how to build one. Conversely, it's easier to gimp a Paladin than to gimp a Fighter.

[Incanur]

Actually, you...can get a dire lion as a mount without a class feature.

Sure, at level 13, but the paladin could take that as well and then have two dire lions. The fact that the mount is a class feature matters, and the paladin gets it five levels earlier.


probably good Charisma for the Handle Animal checks...

Paladin mounts have the advantage of human-level intelligence scores. Depending on the DM, this can make an important difference.

Of course, neglecting Will saves may seem a lot...except only two spells really threaten low Will saves (Glitterdust and Slow). The rest are blocked by Protection from Evil, which isn't really that hard to get[/quote]

Have you never faced color spray or sleep as a low-level PC? Those spells kill people and protection from evil - which isn't that easy to get on continuously - doesn't stop either.


(smites only add to your attack bonus

Plus damage equal to paladin level.


you don't need enough to cast spells

I don't know about you, but personally I always need enough to cast spells.


the saving bonus is definitely the best of the bunch

Paladin spells get pretty awesome. Find the gap and righteous fury, for example.

[T.G. Oskar]

Sure, at level 13, but the paladin could take that as well and then have two dire lions. The fact that the mount is a class feature matters, and the paladin gets it five levels earlier.

Except it may not get that much utility out of them. Mostly in small spaces. Especially in small spaces. Such as dungeons, or the Underdark.

Dire lions are large, and the paladin doesn't get stuff to reduce their size. Druids and rangers do, on the other hand, so they can get a lion with the dire augments but with enough size to work with.


Paladin mounts have the advantage of human-level intelligence scores. Depending on the DM, this can make an important difference.

They still don't understand the world just as you do. Empathic link states that; as well, they have under human level Int scores (between 6-9; a mount gains a proper Int score at 11th level or higher, and that depends if the chosen mount doesn't already get a penalty). The mount doesn't automatically gain the ability to speak either (even if having an Int score of 6, which is pretty much below the usual minimum for ability scores and usually gained through penalties). Because of that difference between perception, you may end up with a loyal mount that doesn't communicate properly what it sees or perceives, and may lead to misunderstandings. An animal companion, on the other hand, hasn't human-level intelligence but it has tricks to compensate, some of which can be pretty good to pull off (and which require Handle Animal checks) mount or not.

You're placing an awful amount of utility on the paladin's mount; it IS the best thing the Paladin has, but that doesn't mean it will be the most useful of its abilities. Going too far will lead to "you play an unusually intelligent magical beast with a humanoid creature as a cohort" idea.


Have you never faced color spray or sleep as a low-level PC? Those spells kill people and protection from evil - which isn't that easy to get on continuously - doesn't stop either.

I can accept Color Spray, but Sleep is an enchantment (compulsion) spell. That's if going by the RAW reading ("blocks any attempt...to exercise mental control over the subject", then placing "including...enchantment [compulsion] effects that grant ongoing control upon the subject" as an addendum, in parenthesis. Notice the emphasis on including, instead of a less inclusive term, like "such as..."), of course.

Color Spray, though, has another type of immunity (sight-based, so anything that grants blindsense or tremorsense works).


Plus damage equal to paladin level.

Sure, but is that based on ability scores? Charisma (or Wisdom, if going with Serenity) only adds to attack rolls, not to damage rolls; the whole discussion was the weight of ability scores, not level-based benefits. It's like saying that the Bard's dependence on Charisma applies to their Bardic Music, when it only applies to part of it (the Perform skill checks for Fascinate and any other related ability), when the daily uses are based on their class level.

Minor nitpick, but I guess it was how I redacted the answer.


I don't know about you, but personally I always need enough to cast spells.

I'd love to cast more and better Paladin spells. However, having a Wisdom of more than 14 (or less than 12) is taking it too far. Maybe if using a Periapt of Wisdom, but that's after I get more important stuff such as a Cloak of Charisma, or a Belt of Giant Strength, or a Blindfold of True Darkness, or a Belt of Battle, or a Healing Belt, or...you get the idea.

Wis 12-14. No less, no more. Any more implies that you have enough Strength, Constitution and Charisma to expend on other stats.


Paladin spells get pretty awesome. Find the gap and righteous fury, for example.

Actually...if we're talking about the Paladin spell list...some of the best in Core (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10854441&postcount=94) and some of the best in Spell Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10859448&postcount=1) IMO at least. Believe me, I'm not playing Devil's Advocate for the Fighter because I like to, but because I like to figure out how to play a Paladin without relying on the frickin' mount if I don't want to use it, and to pimp the badass mount when I DO want to use it. And that's compared to Ranger, which has the distinction of being Tier 4 because of its spell list.

[Epsilon Rose]

Meh, Intuitive Attack only works on unarmed and simple weapons, and does nothing to your damage.

Now, Shiba Protector, that's something, even if it costs quite a few feats.

I had a build planned once that got Wis to AC (in any armour), Wis to Saves (+Evasion & Mettle), Wis to attack, Wis to damage and other miscellaneous stuff. It was a decidedly low OP build though, and took a bit to get together (had all but Mettle at ECL 9).

I'm kinda curious about how that build went, care to share?

[Curmudgeon]

Relative to the Fighter? Generally, none. The Dungeon Crasher ACF gives the Fighter a boost, though, so that would merit a few extra points. But the more important thing is that top-tier classes get many fewer points. Here's what I generally suggest:

Allot the points available for point buy based on the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0):
15 Point Buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 Point Buy
28 Point Buy
32 Point Buy (This is where the Fighter with Dungeon Crasher is.)
40 Point Buy (This is where the Fighter and Paladin are.)
You might try 50 here, but really: Just skip characters this weak.
This assumes PCs are going to start in their primary class. If they change the primary class in later levels they'd retroactively lose points if necessary, but would never retroactively gain points.

[Kaeso]

If you want something approximating a SAD paladin, take Serenity and Intuitive Attack. There's even Zen Archery if needed!

Where's the serenity feat from? I can't find it at all.

[Rei_Jin]

The "Serenity" feat was originally printed in a Dragon Magazine, then reprinted in the Dragon Compendium. It's not a Wizards of the Coast book though, so you may not be allowed to access it with your game.

[Curmudgeon]

The "Serenity" feat was originally printed in a Dragon Magazine, then reprinted in the Dragon Compendium. It's not a Wizards of the Coast book though, so you may not be allowed to access it with your game.
The book does say "© 2005 Wizards of the Coast, Inc." on the credits page, so that's not completely correct. Paizo only published Dragon under license from WotC for 5 years, and Dragon Compendium has updated D&D material from before 2002 (when Paizo was founded); before that Dragon was published in-house.

[Incanur]

Empathic link states that; as well, they have under human level Int scores (between 6-9; a mount gains a proper Int score at 11th level or higher, and that depends if the chosen mount doesn't already get a penalty).

That range already goes higher than your average paladin's 8 Int! And some folks play Neanderthal paladins.


I can accept Color Spray, but Sleep is an enchantment (compulsion) spell. That's if going by the RAW reading ("blocks any attempt...to exercise mental control over the subject", then placing "including...enchantment [compulsion] effects that grant ongoing control upon the subject" as an addendum, in parenthesis. Notice the emphasis on including, instead of a less inclusive term, like "such as..."), of course.

Sleep doesn't exercise mental control over anybody.


Color Spray, though, has another type of immunity (sight-based, so anything that grants blindsense or tremorsense works).

I've ever seen folks get such abilities at the levels color spray kills people. And do those actually make you sightless?


Believe me, I'm not playing Devil's Advocate for the Fighter because I like to, but because I like to figure out how to play a Paladin without relying on the frickin' mount if I don't want to use it, and to pimp the badass mount when I DO want to use it.

Take the gharging smite ACF if you don't want the mount. Then a smite + charge deals 3x times paladin level in damage IIRC.

[Greenish]

I'm kinda curious about how that build went, care to share?Put it up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10992794&postcount=4). It's just an Argent Fist (FoE) with Serenity and Shiba Protector (OA) dip, with negligible offense.

[Kaeso]

It's possible to get Paladin down to nearly just Strength and Constitution. Warforged racial subs lets you swap a number of Cha abilities to Con, and you can trade spellcasting for bonus feats - mainly for Extra Turning, to fuel spamming of Devotion feats. You do lose out on some good spells and you add Con to your Will saves only, so it's not perfect.

Where's the ACF that lets you trade spellcasting for bonus feats?

[Seerow]

Where's the ACF that lets you trade spellcasting for bonus feats?

Complete Warrior I think.

[Kaeso]

Complete Warrior I think.

Nope, that Paladin is certainly spell-less but doesn't give you bonus feats.

[FMArthur]

Complete Warrior I think.

No, Complete Warrior lets you trade your spellcasting for a stiff punt in the groin. Complete Champion is the one that lets you trade it for stuff.

[Kaeso]

No, Complete Warrior lets you trade your spellcasting for a stiff punt in the groin. Complete Champion is the one that lets you trade it for stuff.

Found it. Some of those feats seem pretty meagre. They're either mount focused, from the cleave tree, extra turning or extra smite.

To get back on topic, I think that a lot of people forget to factor turn undead into the fighter vs paladin discussion. A paladin that uses the above bonus feat variant, takes extra turning (the only bonus feat worth taking unless your mounted IMHO, but I could be wrong) and takes the travel devotion feat can effectively pounce multiple times a day. Animal devotion gives you a lot of versatility (What's that, silly mage? Trying to fly out of range? Better luck next time *aerial charge*) and a lot of other devotion feats are worth taking.

[T.G. Oskar]

That range already goes higher than your average paladin's 8 Int! And some folks play Neanderthal paladins.

Still doesn't allow the mount to talk. Heck, if you think about it, an awakened creature has more intellect than the special mount AND the paladin that mounts it (on average; you'd need to roll anything below a 6, and the difference between the average and 6 is about 4 points). And it learns to speak a language as well.

Good one on the Neanderthal Paladins, tho. Not sure about the loss of Dex, but it gains two points on physical stats and doesn't penalize Wisdom or Charisma. I would have half-expected a loss of Charisma IMO.


Sleep doesn't exercise mental control over anybody.

1) Sleep is a spell of the enchantment school. It's also a [compulsion] effect.
2) Enchantment spells "affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior"
3) Spells of the [Compulsion] sub-school "force the subject to act in some manner or changes the way [his or her] mind works".
4) Sleep has the [Mind-Affecting] descriptor. Based on the Enchantment school description, all Enchantment spells have the Mind-Affecting description.
5) The Sleep spell compels you to sleep. Take a good note on that; it compels you to sleep.
6) The definition of "compulsion" that closely relates to the Compulsion sub-school of Enchantment is "The use of authority, influence, or other power to force (compel) a person or persons to act."

Do the calculation. A mind-affecting spell that forces or compels you to sleep. You don't get the choice of whether you want to sleep or not; you can, on the other hand, resist that urge through a Will saving throw. You have no control over said action; someone else has, all you have is the ability to resist it to reestablish control.

I don't see how that doesn't work as a form of mental control. Now, that DOES mean you may not be affected by Rage (another Compulsion spell that grants a buff) or Heroism (a spell that compels you to behave better)...


I've ever seen folks get such abilities at the levels color spray kills people. And do those actually make you sightless?

Actually, you can get blindsense and blindsight rather easily. And it comes with free Wisdom (aka, better Will saves)! At least one of the options is in the SRD.

Still: the idea is that you're gonna take Wisdom for roughly 3 spells (or 4, depending on what you think about Sleep) which are dangerous on their own right, but not for anything else. That doesn't make you depend on Wisdom, like the Paladin depends on Strength for his melee attacks, Constitution for his HP and Fortitude, Wisdom for his spellcasting and Charisma for his other class abilities. You might argue that it also provides slightly better Listen and Spot checks, but roughly 1-4 points depending on what you put into it (and that's mostly what you were protesting against with adding more points into Strength and Constitution, no?).

In terms of priorities, the Fighter has Strength as its primary score, Constitution and Dexterity as secondary scores, and the rest provide little benefits so they can be dumped without much effort. To make Wisdom a quaternary or even tertiary stat you'd need to gain access to abilities that prioritize or depend on Wisdom but that others may not get more access. You can't play a Cleric without Wisdom; you can play a Monk with low Wisdom but you gain a lot by having high Wis; you can play a Fighter with low Wisdom and it will work just as well as one with slightly more Wisdom, because in the end the result is a slightly higher Will saving throw bonus. Now, the Fighter DOES have good reasons why to have Wisdom as a quaternary or tertiary stat, if you consider Combat Form feats which require at least 13 Wis; in that moment, Wisdom gains importance because it unlocks feats you can take with your bonus feats that really make a difference (at least Combat Awareness and Combat Vigor, and Combat Focus which coincidentally grants a better Will save). There's little need for a higher Wisdom score, though, compared to Strength or Constitution or Dexterity.

You could argue the same about Intelligence and skill points, but to a Fighter it's not as necessary unless you go for Combat Expertise.


Take the gharging smite ACF if you don't want the mount. Then a smite + charge deals 3x times paladin level in damage IIRC.

I personally prefer Divine Spirit than Charging Smite, which only delivers twice your damage with a smite (and what makes it important is that you don't consume the smite attempt on a failed attack roll). YMMV on that one; even if once per day, I find the spirits offer quite the benefit.

@Kaeso: the strength of the Paladin, IMO, is the sum of its parts, not just the mount (I would dare say even despite the mount). It's not merely the smite, or the uses of turn undead which can be turned into uses of divine or domain feats, or the lay on hands, or the spellcasting, or the immunities; it's the combination of all of those abilities that makes the Paladin edge over the Fighter. However, the Paladin suffers a lot because it has an overwhelming offer of feats but a veritable lack of feat slots.

A Fighter has 11 bonus feat slots, and 7-8 general feat slots. Of those 11, it can only choose bonus feats limited to the fighter, with less than 8 feats being pretty much fighter-exclusive (the Weapon Focus chain). Of the rest, it can choose from quite a lot of feats. A Fighter needs between 3-7 feats (a very rough estimate) to be useful in combat (basically its preferred fighting method, whether it is Power Attack or Two Weapon Fighting or Combat Reflexes/Improved Trip locking builds, or even Mounted Combat), which it can cover with his bonus feats, so he has about 11-16 feat slots which he can cover pretty reliably with other feats (and with splats, you can get something decent).

A Paladin, on the other hand, has 7-8 general feat slots, without counting the Complete Champion replacement that grants 4 more feats. However, it has access to Divine feats which the Fighter doesn't have access to. It doesn't have access to Vile feats, but the duplicity between Vile and Exalted feats compensates for the Paladin's almost exclusive access to Exalted feats (if they're allowed in the first place). However, the Paladin has a few limitations on what they can get: first, they need their feats to establish their combat routine, and the only one that's moderately cost-effective is Mounted Combat since they get a free mount and many benefits that enhance it. Going the Power Attack line or the Two-Weapon Fighting line strains the Paladin too far, and in the end they may remain with 1-3 remaining feats to work with. More than half of the options they gain access to are restricted because of their limited access to feats; if you exchange their spell list for extra feats, you gain some leverage on what they can do, but you're sacrificing one of the points where the Paladin outpaces the Fighter in order to have the combat capabilities the Fighter has, and not even to the same degree. If you try to balance Combat Form feats, Divine feats, Domain feats, maybe even Faith feats and even Reserve feats (remember they're spellcasters), you'll easily notice the Paladin doesn't have too many feat slots to work with. If you don't use at least one or two divine feats, Turn Undead loses its utility unless facing undead, and if Clerics of all people can't take down higher-level undead with their own, what a weakened Turn Undead ability will do? So that's two or three feats you need to get in order to draw greater utility out of TU, which conflicts with the little feats you get.

It's not a bad point: in fact, the Paladin has even higher reasons to use Turn Undead because its high Charisma ensures they get more uses of Turn Undead than the Cleric, and they both have access to Nightsticks in any case. But without a proper amount of feats, the Paladin lags behind. Now, consider that Paladins get free weekly uses of Remove Disease which after a while they'll never use (because the Cleric can use Heal in-combat and wands of Remove Disease outside of combat); if you were to replace those with bonus feats, the Paladin would edge over the Fighter and probably even reach Tier 4 because it can draw from sources the Fighter can't draw from and probably gain access to feats that complement things they lack (such as Animal Devotion to fly, for example). It only needs something that reinforces that strength.

(Hmm...Fighter 2/Paladin 18 with Remove Disease turned into feats and Dungeon Crasher...)

[Cog]

Found it. Some of those feats seem pretty meagre. They're either mount focused, from the cleave tree, extra turning or extra smite.
Which is why I suggesting Extra Turning, to power the Devotion feats that are often very good.