Swooping Dragon Strike

[Telonius]

Hey Playground! I'm DM'ing, and am running into a bit of a problem with a Warblade. The issue: a combination of Leaping Dragon Stance and Swooping Dragon Strike.

Right now, the party is level 15. The Warblade has maxed out his Jump skill, and has 24 STR, and an extra +10 to speed from Boots. All told, his bonus is:
18 (ranks) + 7 (STR) + 4 (speed) + 2 (Synergy from Tumble) = 31, or a minimum result of 32. So 32 feet on a Long Jump. With Leaping Dragon Stance, he gets a +10 foot enhancement bonus to that, giving a total minimum distance of 42.

Now if I'm reading the entry for Swooping Dragon correctly, you have to do a long jump over the target. Our Warblade will now automatically clear anybody 42/4=10.5 feet tall or lower, probably hitting them (since they're denied Dex to AC) and forcing them to make a DC (minimum) 32 Fort save or be Stunned. So basically any Medium-sized or smaller creature is subject to automatic stunning.

Things get even worse when the Wizard casts Haste.

Our group is fairly moderate optimization (both by my nerfing overpowered classes, and gentleman's agreement with the more experienced players). I'm completely certain that the player isn't deliberately trying to apply cheese - he's still fairly new and there are still a lot of ways to pump up a Jump check that he isn't using. This seems to be more along the lines of becoming overpowered by accident, the way that (for example) somebody could do by picking up the PHB, playing a Druid and selecting Natural Spell.

I don't want to completely ban the stance/strike combination, since I want to encourage rules mastery in a newer player. But I'm not sure how to nerf it in a way that will make it reasonable. Slash the Stun DC in half? Get rid of the Stun effect altogether? (It's still a powerful strike as is)? Any other ideas?

[RaginChangeling]

Have them fight some bigger monsters/opponents? Have some more flying opponents?

Honestly, thats not exactly one of the strongest things he could be doing at this level. And a ton of things at CR 15 can make that fort save pretty easily.

Really its pretty situationally useful at best unless the entire campaign is centered around fighting a bunch of medium or smaller non-flying creatures with bad fortitude saves.

[Greenish]

Have you actually had problems with this, or are you just worried about the future?

Also, he should be able to jump over anything 18' tall or shorter, in Leaping Dragon stance.

[Bhaakon]

You can just make the (entirely reasonable, IMO) ruling that the player needs the necessary jump distance plus a run-up distance and enough head room clear in order to do the maneuver. If he tries to do it indoors (at least with standard 8' ceilings), or in tight quarters, or with someone in the way, it should fail spectacularly. That should limit his opportunities enough to keep it under control.

[Greenish]

plus a run-up distanceThe point of Leaping Dragon stance is to remove the need for running jumps. Re-introducing the pesky thing after you've just got rid of it would be annoying.

[Bhaakon]

The point of Leaping Dragon stance is to remove the need for running jumps. Re-introducing the pesky thing after you've just got rid of it would be annoying.

Then how could the speed bonus stack if you're not getting a running start? Ugh, this is why I hate ToB.

[Telonius]

Actually have had some problems with this in the last few sessions - it's been outdoors mainly. In one instance he actually jumped down from a flying mount to do the maneuver on a Dragon. (Fortunately the Dragon made his save, but short of a Dragon not much is going to make that Fort save).

Good point about the ceilings - it's mainly going to be dungeons from here to the end of the adventure, so that should limit the options.

[Greenish]

Then how could the speed bonus stack if you're not getting a running start?Ask the developers. You always get the speed bonus to jump checks, whether you have a running start or not.

Also, there's a feat that has much the same effect in PHBII, Leap of the Heavens.


Ugh, this is why I hate ToB.You hate ToB because the core rules are wonky? :smallamused:

[Jude_H]

Yeah, this feat and the White Raven level 8/9 feats can be a bit frustrating.

A few things you could do:
Increase the number of opponents. Don't necessarily boost the CR of an encounter too high, but add enough different creatures that one being stunned for a round isn't going to ruin the game.
Add a handful of stun-immune baddies. Not too many, but the occasional undead, plant, elemental, ooze golem or spellcaster wouldn't hurt.
Flying enemies are always good. And flight is cheap, so that shouldn't hurt.
If you really don't want a stun to take, maybe give a creature Quick Recovery feat. Don't overdo it, but it could work for the occasional high Fort non-caster.

[Bhaakon]

You hate ToB because the core rules are wonky?

No, because it makes wonky rules wonkier and wonkier (a problem shared by many supplements).

[FMArthur]

You can just make the (entirely reasonable, IMO) ruling that the player needs the necessary jump distance plus a run-up distance and enough head room clear in order to do the maneuver. If he tries to do it indoors (at least with standard 8' ceilings), or in tight quarters, or with someone in the way, it should fail spectacularly. That should limit his opportunities enough to keep it under control.

The first part, in bold, is just unfair hand-waving of the Leaping Dragon Stance's sole purpose. "No, your ability doesn't do anything anymore" isn't good DMing. The point about headroom is good and probably holds for a large amount of encounters.

[Ernir]

In one instance he actually jumped down from a flying mount to do the maneuver on a Dragon.
That's not a problem, that's awesome! :smalltongue:

OK, but more to the point...
You're DMing for an ECL 15 party. The PCs are pretty damn awesome at that point, being able to stun someone with a save DC so high it might as well be "no" is... par for the course, as far as I am concerned. Isn't the party Wizard shooting Mazes and Irresistible Dances and Stun Rays and Fleshshivers and Death by Thorns (OK, maybe not Death by Thorns :smalleek:) by now? This is just what high level 3.5 is like, in my experience. Nukes and counters.

But, this is giving you problems. I advise using the rules before changing them. Jude_H has a good list of potential counters, the only thing I have to add is getting your humanoid opponents an item (I have a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) of such things) that cancels stunning.

Just don't overdo it. A Warblade who gets gimped every time, even if it's for different reasons, is kind of a sad character.

[AslanCross]

Don't the jump rules mention a vertical distance travelled during long jumps as well? He will still have to clear the vertical distance or smack quite cOmically into the monster.

[Thrawn183]

Yeah, this isn't anything rediculous considering you've reached the level where Otto's Irresistable Dance has come into play.

[Telonius]

That's not a problem, that's awesome! :smalltongue:

...

Just don't overdo it. A Warblade who gets gimped every time, even if it's for different reasons, is kind of a sad character.

The "awesome" aspect is one reason I don't want to overdo it. Basically, I want the stunning to be a "maybe" not a "yes."

The party "wizard" (actually a Sorcerer, but not to split hairs) is the most experienced player and is deliberately not going Batman-mode. He's perfectly capable of it - he has about ten years' more experience than the next-oldest player and knows how to find the TO boards - but he mainly wants everybody to have fun so is toning it down.

[Cog]

Don't the jump rules mention a vertical distance travelled during long jumps as well? He will still have to clear the vertical distance or smack quite cOmically into the monster.
Long jumps reach one-quarter their length in floor clearance.

Which means you get exactly as high with a long jump as you do a high jump. I'm not sure how that's supposed to make sense.