Help with Battlefield Control party

[DogbertLinc]

So...after this last session, we decided to turn down the battlefield control stuff.

The problem was a Dragonwrought Child of Eberron Wizard spamming Entangle/Web/Glitterdust coupled with a Tripper Fighter (standard stuff) and a Dragon Shaman with more entangling.

Granted, the main problem IS the Wizard. And the party decided to slow down on that stuff, after literally killing a bunch of enemies out of sheer boredom. How should we go towards making that shift?

[Tokiko Mima]

Incorporeal creatures might challenge them. I wouldn't go as far as a sea of 20+ allips, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm) but mixing in a few monsters that can't be tripped, blinded or held couldn't hurt. Or maybe find an especially nasty one with class levels to be a BBEG?

[Dralnu]

Two options:

1) Gentleman's agreement to use less powerful tactics. Battlefield control remains hidden as a sort of "plot armor" to make sure you get out of sticky situations. This lets the DM keep doing what he's doing and still present somewhat of a challenge to the party. However, it takes away the lethal aspect of the game.

2) DM ramps up the difficulty to match up with the party. He employs the same tactics the PCs use against them and counters their common tactics. So I hear you like to glitterdust so I sent high level wizards at you so they can glitterdust while quicken glitterdusting. Oh, I didn't notice your web there, I was too busy charging your face with freedom of movement. This requires a lot more work on the DM's part, especially if he wants to pull this off in a fair and balanced way. Not only does he have to use counters sparingly, he also has to make sure he ramps up the difficulty while not making any specific character feel useless in the process (ie. Fighter). It's a lot more work on the DM, but if done right it leads to a very rewarding experience for the players.

[Runestar]

Metagaming, most likely.

For example, if your party favours glitterdust, you may want to use foes who do not need to rely on sight (such as grimlocks) or have good will saves (eg: outsiders, warblades with moment of perfect mind readied).

I am not so sure how to counter entangle.

[Greenish]

I am not so sure how to counter entangle.By Crom! :smallcool:

[HalfDragonCube]

By Crom! :smallcool:

Yeah, but that counters anything. Such as the sun. And inertia.

[tyckspoon]

Metagaming, most likely.

For example, if your party favours glitterdust, you may want to use foes who do not need to rely on sight (such as grimlocks) or have good will saves (eg: outsiders, warblades with moment of perfect mind readied).

I am not so sure how to counter entangle.

I'd just let them rock their way through the next couple of levels.. and then start looking for enemies that aren't restricted to just being *on* the ground. Above it (flight speed), in it (burrow speed, incorporeal), or just skipping the intervening space (teleport abilities) are all relatively easy abilities to find on monsters once you can start choosing/building CR 5+ opponents, and make it a lot harder to pin down an entire encounter with typical field control spells.

[HalfDragonCube]

Throw their own tricks right back at them. There is little point in webbing an area is already.

[Greenish]

Throw their own tricks right back at them. There is little point in webbing an area is already."They can't sink our ship if we sink if first!"

http://a6.idata.over-blog.com/0/30/28/69/pirates_asterix.gif

[ericgrau]

So...after this last session, we decided to turn down the battlefield control stuff.

The problem was a Dragonwrought Child of Eberron Wizard spamming Entangle/Web/Glitterdust coupled with a Tripper Fighter (standard stuff) and a Dragon Shaman with more entangling.

Granted, the main problem IS the Wizard. And the party decided to slow down on that stuff, after literally killing a bunch of enemies out of sheer boredom. How should we go towards making that shift?

1. Make harder fights that they need those fun tactics to beat.
2. But don't make foes throw up a white flag whenever they get caught, or the tactics won't be fun anymore. Blind/entangled is not the same as dead.


Entangle: Every enemy with opposable thumbs should have a backup ranged weapon, without exception. That's basic survival tactics for both PC and monsters.
Web: Doesn't do much to high strength foes, try a few of those.
Glitterdust: A DC 20 listen check finds the square of anyone who just attacked or cast or etc. A DC 20+move silently result check (assuming someone even bothered to move quietly at half speed) finds someone who moved. The DCs for the general direction (not exact square) are 0 and move silently result. Thus most rounds blindness is merely a 50% miss chance plus "can only attack the noisy or non-moving guys". With blind fight that becomes 25%.
Trip: If threatened it's usually better to fight from the ground at a -4. That sucks but the target is hardly out of the fight like an idiot who spends the rest of the fight standing, eating hits, and falling. If not threatened then you stand up.


Besides that monsters should also use clever tactics such as ambushes, readied actions to disrupt casting (especially with aforementioned ranged weapons), arrow slits, other cover, grappling, bull rushing PCs into webs or entangle or cliffs or other hazards, and the same tactics as the PCs. High saves also reduce the effectiveness of the first 3 tactics above a great deal. Large foes tend to negate trip. Hopefully now you will have interesting fights where you need your tactics just to survive and must think and vary them by figuring out what works on different foes, while avoiding the tricks of your foes. Not using tactics to dominate.

[HalfDragonCube]

"They can't sink our ship if we sink if first!"
*snip*

I get the reference, and that is actually exactly what I was thinking of, which is quite scary.:smalleek:

[Greenish]

I get the reference, and that is actually exactly what I was thinking of, which is quite scary.:smalleek:Eh, it's hardly an obscure one.

[HalfDragonCube]

Eh, it's hardly an obscure one.

No, I was actually thinking of the pirates when I wrote that. Do you read my mind or something?

[DogbertLinc]

Ok, thanks for all the advice. Right now, the wizard is temporarily out of question:

After the party went merrily into a city we knew was Mindflayer dominated, but forgot, the wizard was the only one able to escape, through Invisibility and Abrupt Jaunt, and everyone else is in Mindflayer jail now

But the DM is still learning how to balance encounters, and our current strategies are a response to earlier screw-ups (7 minor Xorns at level 2)

So, thanks for the help, and if things continue bad, I'll return with more.

[HalfDragonCube]

Ok, thanks for all the advice. Right now, the wizard is temporarily out of question:

After the party went merrily into a city we knew was Mindflayer dominated, but forgot, the wizard was the only one able to escape, through Invisibility and Abrupt Jaunt, and everyone else is in Mindflayer jail now

But the DM is still learning how to balance encounters, and our current strategies are a response to earlier screw-ups (7 minor Xorns at level 2)

So, thanks for the help, and if things continue bad, I'll return with more.

Abrupt Jaunt: Jailbreak-in-a-can