How would you make a warmage stand out.

[OverdrivePrime]

Hey all,

So, my "your real selves get sucked into a D&D world" game has started, and all of the characters started as level one human paragons. Each has then picked a character class that they think suits themselves well. Of the group of six, only have two who are effective at practical optimization.

Human Male Wizard - going more for god-style utility and usefulness than destruction.
Human Female Archivist - normally plays arcane tricksters and barbarians. Was leaning toward bard, and then discovered the Archivist class. Should be interesting.
Human Male Paladin - Taking 2 levels of paladin, and then plans on multiclassing to cleric, taking the other 2 levels of paragon, and then finding fun cleric prestige classes. Dangerous, but more good lawful than lawful good so I don't really have to worry about power tripping.
Human Female Spirit Shaman - Her 2nd D&D campaign, likes nature and faeries. Spirit shaman was a natural choice, and fits better than druid.
Human Male Druid - should be wacky. I'm expecting lots of packs of chihuahuas being summoned.

And finally... Human Male Warmage - Warmage totally suits his character and nature, except the guy is also 6'-2", 240 pounds, an army heavy combat veteran and karate champion. I'm expecting him to get bored with being outclassed in the magic department real quick, and try to rely more on his hand-to-hand combat skills.
How would you make a warmage into an effective gish? Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence are rated around 16. Other stats are 10-12.
He has one level of human paragon, one level of warmage. I'm expecting the campaign to reach at least level 15, but it'll be slow.

Books allowed: All SRD except Psionics, All Complete series, PHBII, Spell Compendium and Tome of Battle.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Have all his other levels be unarmed swordsage, with the arcane swordsage variant, but restrict him to warmage spell list. After all, who says you can't use the unarmed variant and the arcane variant on the same character?

Wait, this gives me an idea about multiclassing my swordsage with swordsage...

[Aspenor]

Warmage and Gish don't mesh very well. Why did you choose warmage over something like Wizard or Sorcerer? Warmages typically try to blow stuff up. Gish typically buff themselves and fight, and Warmage is seriously lacking in the buff department.

I hate to be the guy that says "why bother with that, don't even try it," but that's kindof my first reaction. So, there it is...

[FMArthur]

Without the Charisma to actually cast spells above second level and to make them matter much, it's going to be hard to find ways to gish it up that actually have anything to do with his Warmage levels, unfortunately. In fact, that's generally the case with Warmages that actually have a passable casting stat anyway. To get the character he actually wants to play you need to allow PHII for the Duskblade or EPH for the Psychic Warrior.

[Jude_H]

I've never experienced a Warmage player feeling outclassed, but you could write the Ordained Champion's channeling into a feat without too much trouble to make it worthwhile. Or just swap the Ordained Champion to Arcane, make it grant turning, and base smite off CL... that would be easy, would provide melee support from channeling, divine power and smiting, and would mature relatively quickly.

[Aspenor]

Personally, having high Strength, Dexterity and Int is just screaming "Warblade me nao!" to me. Having a CON at 10-12 will hurt, though.

[Divide by Zero]

Seconding duskblade. Actually makes sense as a gish, and the stats fit it much better too.

[OverdrivePrime]

Actually, his Cha's around 14 - I was wrong about that.

And I hear you about there being no clean options to gish a Warmage. I just wanted to check and see if there were any good ideas I was missing.

Anyway, yeah, I think he'd love Warblade. I hadn't considered Duskblade, but it actually really makes sense for the guy. Someone had suggested Warlock... but I dunno. Warlocks just seem a little limp to me - maybe I'm just biased against that awful character art. :smallsigh:

Arcane swordsage variant is interesting... I'm pretty familiar with unarmed, but not arcane. How would one cast spells as a maneuver? O__o

[Aspenor]

How would one cast spells as a maneuver? O__o

I would forget about arcane swordsage. The designers must have been drunk when they talked about it, because giving a character an unlimited number of spells per day that they can recharge in combat is just a terrible idea.

[Greenish]

Arcane swordsage variant is interesting... I'm pretty familiar with unarmed, but not arcane. How would one cast spells as a maneuver? O__oIt's not specified. It's more of an idea for homebrew than an actual variant.

[Divide by Zero]

Someone had suggested Warlock... but I dunno. Warlocks just seem a little limp to me - maybe I'm just biased against that awful character art. :smallsigh:

Glaivelock can be pretty formidable in melee, but it really doesn't have the same feel as a gish. Probably because you're basically using a lightsaber rather than a real weapon.

But don't ever use Hideous Blow.

[realbombchu]

If you allow him to rebuild a little (and maybe even if you don't) I hear warmages make great rainbow servants, from Complete Divine. They are full casters (text says so, table is wrong) with the complete cleric spell list added to their own.

Not a gish really, but it adds some of the best combat buffs to his spell list. The class can easily be freed from its couatl flavor too.

[Tvtyrant]

Okay, gotta say this: You cannot cast with a casting stat of 14. Even if you use items to keep it where you can actually cast the spells it doesn't work due to DCs (which are especially important on a warmage).

Also, the name Warmage does not mean it is good in melee. It doesn't even mean it should be good in melee; jet fighters aren't after all. It means that its a blaster, along the lines of V in the comic. You can make it more versatile through Sandshaper (more spells + free metamagic) or Rainbow Servant, but it is mostly a blaster.

[Eldariel]

Duskblade is what he wants. Int-based, they blast quite well (and can combine those with melee attacks) and they're natural Gishes. Warmage really doesn't Gish well at all; you'd basically just have to take levels in some class for proficiencies and enter a prestige class and then just be a melee fighter with some blasty spells you never cast, or blaster with some melee attacks you never use depending on which is better. Did I mention it doesn't go live until level billion?

[Kaeso]

Hmm, why not go for monk/sorcerer/enlightened fist (complete arcane)? It beats a warmage in the blasting department, beats a warmage in the hand-to-hand department and also gives him access to some non-blasting spells like utility or save-or-suck/die/lose, whatever flows your friends boat.

If he chooses to take all 10 levels of enlightened fist and uses a single level of monk for his entry he will lose 3 total caster levels (making him unable to use 9th level spells), but IMHO most 9th level spells aren't all that impressive and it'd still be a very fun class to play. However, the enlightened fist gets most of its goodies in the first 5 levels, so if you leave it by then and go for a different prestige class (say, abjurant champion), you only lose 2 caster levels and you can still get 9th level spells.

If you add the feat "Ascetic mage", it uses charisma for all monk skills (including stunning fist and the AC bonus), eliminating the need for wis. With weapon finesse you could even eliminate the need for STR, because most of your damage will most likely come from spells channelled through melee attacks, or normal blasting. It's feat intensive, but eliminates MAD (so you only need a high CHA, DEX and CON, probably in that order)

A good build would be:
Monk 1/Sorc 6/Enlightened Fist 5/ Abj. Champ 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3.
The downside is that you're just a sorcerer with a 1d6 unarmed strike for the first 7 levels, this build only starts running by level 10 or so.

The sacred fist from complete divine is also an idea, but IMHO it's a bit underwhelming for two reasons:
1. Divine spells don't tend to be as good at blasting.
2. A straight cleric with improved and superior unarmed strike is superior in nearly every way.

[OverdrivePrime]

Okay, really good ideas guys - I think I can convince him that Warmage is a dead end, particularly compared with what he wants to do (beat people up and make things explode). I was reading up on warmages, with the rainbow warsnake and all, and then remembered the godawful character art for that. If this player even smells that book he will definitely recoil in horror at the thought of that PRC.

I like the Sorc/Enlightened Fist/ Ab-Champ idea. I think I'll run that and the duskblade by him and see what he things.

Right now he's loving the idea of casting in armor (dude normally plays white wolf only, so I'm having trouble explaining how that doesn't really matter all that much), and loving the idea of having ten hojillion blasty-spells at his fingertips. Never mind that they're weak blasty spells. >__>

[Eldariel]

Right now he's loving the idea of casting in armor (dude normally plays white wolf only, so I'm having trouble explaining how that doesn't really matter all that much), and loving the idea of having ten hojillion blasty-spells at his fingertips. Never mind that they're weak blasty spells. >__>

Duskblade gets all that, heavy armor and swords. So...yeah, sounds right up his alley.

[HalfDragonCube]

Duskblade gets all that, heavy armor and swords. So...yeah, sounds right up his alley.

Duskblade is nice. You can be a gish from level one and have a huge number of spell slots to empty into things.

Hexblade might also be one to think about. It's based on Cha and there is a good ACF for it.

[subject42]

How would I make a warmage stand out? I'd dress him up like this:


http://www.hollywoodtoday.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/bootsy-collins2.jpg

[Amnestic]

How would I make a warmage stand out? I'd dress him up like this:


http://www.hollywoodtoday.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/bootsy-collins2.jpg


That's not a Warmage, it's a Bard. :smalltongue:

[HalfDragonCube]

That's not a Warmage, it's a Bard. :smalltongue:

Is there a feat which lets you exchange your focus for an instrument? if so, shoot laserbeams out of the guitar and call it a day.

[OverdrivePrime]

How would I make a warmage stand out? I'd dress him up like this:


http://www.hollywoodtoday.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/bootsy-collins2.jpg

Bootsy Collins could stand out in a cloak of elvenkind. That hat he's got would make an awesome Sorting Hat for Harry Potter: Las Vegas Nights.

[Kaeso]

Okay, really good ideas guys - I think I can convince him that Warmage is a dead end, particularly compared with what he wants to do (beat people up and make things explode). I was reading up on warmages, with the rainbow warsnake and all, and then remembered the godawful character art for that. If this player even smells that book he will definitely recoil in horror at the thought of that PRC.

I like the Sorc/Enlightened Fist/ Ab-Champ idea. I think I'll run that and the duskblade by him and see what he things.

Right now he's loving the idea of casting in armor (dude normally plays white wolf only, so I'm having trouble explaining how that doesn't really matter all that much), and loving the idea of having ten hojillion blasty-spells at his fingertips. Never mind that they're weak blasty spells. >__>

Cool, can you tell us how it turns out?
By the way, with proper optimization blast spells can get pretty strong.
Oh, and if he chooses to go the Enlightened Fist route, reading this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861966/Enlightened_Fist_Optimization_Long) might be worth the trouble.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I would forget about arcane swordsage. The designers must have been drunk when they talked about it, because giving a character an unlimited number of spells per day that they can recharge in combat is just a terrible idea.

Yes, it is terribly overpowered, but I'm toning it down by limiting it to the warmage spell list. Plus, the swordsage recovery mechanic is not even close to unlimited. Sure, you can cast them every encounter, but not more then a couple of times.

[OverdrivePrime]

Cool, can you tell us how it turns out?

Definitely. I'm going to keep a campaign journal for this one... just need to finish the map and that'll be ready to go.

[Kaeso]

Definitely. I'm going to keep a campaign journal for this one... just need to finish the map and that'll be ready to go.

A campaign journal! Awesome!
It's been a while since we've had a decent one (maybe we need a journal subforum?)

[Divide by Zero]

IMHO most 9th level spells aren't all that impressive

lolwut

On the other hand, most campaigns never get high enough for 9th level spells to come into play, and they're typically only around for a few levels if they do, so the importance of getting them by level 20 seems rather over-emphasized in my opinion.

[Kaeso]

lolwut

On the other hand, most campaigns never get high enough for 9th level spells to come into play, and they're typically only around for a few levels if they do, so the importance of getting them by level 20 seems rather over-emphasized in my opinion.

Yeah, time stop and shapechange are the two diamonds, but gate and wish are too expensive in the EXP department and the other ones aren't all that impressive IMHO.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah, time stop and shapechange are the two diamonds, but gate and wish are too expensive in the EXP department and the other ones aren't all that impressive IMHO.

What about Dominate Monster, which gives you a permanent army of monsters? "I add the BBEG to my party" is always a pleasant sound :P

[Divide by Zero]

Yeah, time stop and shapechange are the two diamonds, but gate and wish are too expensive in the EXP department and the other ones aren't all that impressive IMHO.

Gate is worth the cost. Foresight is a great buff, Dominate Monster can be nasty if you fight anything non-mind-immune, Astral Projection can make you practically unkillable among other things, Soul Bind is fun for evil characters. Time Stop and Shapechange alone make it worth getting to 9. And that's just core.

[Eldariel]

Gate is worth the cost. Foresight is a great buff, Dominate Monster can be nasty if you fight anything non-mind-immune, Astral Projection can make you practically unkillable among other things, Soul Bind is fun for evil characters. Time Stop and Shapechange alone make it worth getting to 9. And that's just core.

Disjunction, while an incredibly unpleasant spell, is also an incredibly potent one.

[Tvtyrant]

Disjunction, while an incredibly unpleasant spell, is also an incredibly potent one.

It is also useful for Dominating the BBEG, you disjunction his mind blank and then dominate!

[Divide by Zero]

Disjunction, while an incredibly unpleasant spell, is also an incredibly potent one.

Didn't think to mention that one because every group I've been in where high level spells were a factor had a gentleman's agreement to not use it.

[FMArthur]

And that's the heart of it. Gate, Wish, and Disjunction are all so good that in absolutely normal usage, even in the most low-op groups I've played high level games in, a "gentlemen's agreement" is required for the game's fun to be preserved.

[Kaeso]

How does Astral Projection make you nigh-unkillable? Your soul is sent to the astral plane, but your body remains. If your body is killed, your soul remains trapped in the Astral plane

[Divide by Zero]

And that's the heart of it. Gate, Wish, and Disjunction are all so good that in absolutely normal usage, even in the most low-op groups I've played high level games in, a "gentlemen's agreement" is required for the game's fun to be preserved.
Not because it's too powerful so much as nobody likes having their magic items destroyed by an effect that they can't really stop.

How does Astral Projection make you nigh-unkillable? Your soul is sent to the astral plane, but your body remains. If your body is killed, your soul remains trapped in the Astral plane

Start in some place completely safe. Project to the Astral plane, then shift back to the material. If you get killed, you just go back to your safe place.

[Grendus]

The normal method is to do something like use Genesis to create your own private demi-plane, then project to the astral plane and plane shift to the material plane. For two spell slots, you are effectively immortal. Nobody can get to your private demi-plane, and killing you on the material just kicks you back to your own home.

Even better, set it up so time flows significantly faster on your own demi-plane (works better if you're ageless - Lich and Vampire work well though Necropolitan is cheaper. Leadershipping yourself a druid with Reincarnate works if you don't mind dieing every few decades, or you could just be a warforged). Somebody kills you on the prime material, you wake up on your home plane, have a nice supper, get a good nights sleep, memorize precisely the right spells, and appear behind them thirty seconds after they killed you, fully recharged and ready to kill them. Repeat as necessary.

[Malkav]

I was thinking a neon pink robe with a yellow cape when I read the title...sorry.