Hypothetical deity-killing mortal

[amazinghat]

Really, I'd like to see the hypothetical stats of a mortal who is capable of killing a rank-20 deity with 20 levels in aristocrat, expert, and commoner each. This deity also has the Life and Death divine feat.

Short of pulling a Pun Pun, I can't imagine anyone who can kill a rank-20 deity, even if the deity has crappy NPC classes. Because the deity can just Life and Death the mortal instantly without a will save.

Actually, scratch the rank-20. I want to see rank-6, because that's the minimum requirement for Life and Death.

[Alleran]

You might be able to do it by going the Tainted Scholar route and pumping your save DCs so high that not even a god could pass them, then hitting them with a no-save-just-die (either with direct damage or some sort of instakill spell) before they can Life-And-Death you. It's the ultimate in rocket tag.

That doesn't work against a Rank 20 god, though.

[Malimar]

The first step would be to take three levels of Defiant to gain "Immunity to damage from divine power". Bam, now the god can't damage you, because that would be damage from divine power.

You can take the rest of the levels, but they mostly refer to divine spells, which this god can't cast at all (he casts any domain spells he can grant, but as spell-like abilities), so that won't be as helpful.

I'm not sure whether preventing all damage also prevents death effects - I would assume not, so you're still not safe from Life and Death. And it won't block things that incapacitate you without damaging you. Nonetheless, it's still the first thing you'll want when fighting a god.

[Aquillion]

It'd depend on the deity. Some powers are more manageable than others. You're not really likely to beat a deity who has Alter Reality, if they've been using it intelligently (since they can have every buff ever written up as a permanent, non-dispellable, AMF-proof effect!)

[amazinghat]

In the hecatoncheires lore it is said that this abomination can destroy entire pantheons.

I think that's BS because I was wondering how, with alter reality, a deity was not like Pun-Pun.

Or maybe the deities are just too retarded to do infinite loops?

In any case, I think it's impossible for a deity who knows what s/he's doing to die.

[Incanur]

Both based on 3.5 rules as well as any serious consideration of beings with divine powers, mortals should only defeat them under special circumstances. If want to kill gods, talk to your DM. It's as simple as that. The ascension event I ran proved exciting, entertaining, and memorable. Even weakened deities pose a solid challenge for epic-level parties of full casters.

[Zaq]

Whether or not a mortal can kill a deity depends entirely on a few things: the deity's rank, the deity's SDAs, the deity's portfolio (and, more importantly, portfolio sense), and how intelligently the deity is played. If the god is played well, has strong SDAs, and has the portfolio sense to see the mortal coming, you need seriously epic magic (with all the attending "Nuh uh!" "Yes huh!" "Nuh uh times infinity!" "Yes huh times infinity plus one!" that it brings) to even have a chance. If the deity has some kind of weakness for the mortals to exploit, a sufficiently cheesed-out caster has a chance of winning, but that's really only because the GM making/controlling the deity was either nice or stupid.

[gallagher]

ok, i cant do it with aristocrat, but a way i wanted to kill a god (and have yet to try) would be to persist a Greater Consumptive Field, then go to a large city, walk through the slums killing all the 1 lvl commoners and their children, go to a hospital and walk around, just keep ending lives until my caster level is so high that even i wouldnt be able to save myself.

then go face that god that you wanted to so desperately kill. good luck

[Eldariel]

ok, i cant do it with aristocrat, but a way i wanted to kill a god (and have yet to try) would be to persist a Greater Consumptive Field, then go to a large city, walk through the slums killing all the 1 lvl commoners and their children, go to a hospital and walk around, just keep ending lives until my caster level is so high that even i wouldnt be able to save myself.

then go face that god that you wanted to so desperately kill. good luck

How does that help kill the God? You're not killing a God with Death SDA if it gets to act, and having large CL or anything else doesn't help there.

[amazinghat]

Do you think that this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Elfking_A%C3%ABl%C3%A1s_%283.5e_NPC%29) dude can kill a deity? If so, what rank of deity assuming that deity has something related to combat in its portfolio and knows what s/he's doing?

[Eldariel]

Do you think that this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Elfking_A%C3%ABl%C3%A1s_%283.5e_NPC%29) dude can kill a deity? If so, what rank of deity assuming that deity has something related to combat in its portfolio and knows what s/he's doing?

Not a chance. The spell selection is all wrong, the build doesn't really do anything and he's spontaneous so there's little to do to fix the eff-ups. He doesn't have Epic Spellcasting nor any of the epic spellcasting feats so I don't see him having the relevant advantages you need to take out a deity.

[Tenebris]

One can come up with a devious intrigue to kill followers of the deity. All of them at once. This method is reserved mostly for aristocrats (particularly those really wealthy ones with high leadership scores). Requires perfect timing, many henchmen, insane conspiracy. Therefore it is virtually impossible. But hey, why not try?

Leadership is also a kind of work-around for aristocrat/expert/commoner. They may lack powerful class features. Their cohorts do not.

[tyckspoon]

Not a chance. The spell selection is all wrong, the build doesn't really do anything and he's spontaneous so there's little to do to fix the eff-ups. He doesn't have Epic Spellcasting nor any of the epic spellcasting feats so I don't see him having the relevant advantages you need to take out a deity.

He could brute-force the wussier gods, but.. yeah, if you want him to take on anything built with an actual sense of combat prowess he needs help. Fortunately he's just a Psychic Reformation and a few thousand XP away from being competent.

[Garryl]

A level 10 Ardent exploiting a casual disconcern for the action economy (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10262.0) should be able to do it (or at least form the basis of it). Just start charging up six to twenty weeks before you plan to take out the deity so he can't interrupt your action/PP recharge loop before you start it by forseeing your assassination attempt. A functionally infinite number of actions should be enough to get you where you need with whatever you need to do the job (or a truly infinite amount at level 11 with Temporal Acceleration). Since all of your actions are also readied actions, you can interrupt the deity attempting to snuff out your life (or wait until level 17 and just use Timeless Body, but that's no fun). You can even have a Save Game Trick running with your psicrystal (if you have one) to reset things if you fail, just in case.

[JaronK]

ok, i cant do it with aristocrat, but a way i wanted to kill a god (and have yet to try) would be to persist a Greater Consumptive Field, then go to a large city, walk through the slums killing all the 1 lvl commoners and their children, go to a hospital and walk around, just keep ending lives until my caster level is so high that even i wouldnt be able to save myself.

then go face that god that you wanted to so desperately kill. good luck

The CL gains are capped at +1/2 caster level. Even with repeated castings, the most you can get from the Consumptive Field line is one less than double your initial caster level. You would get a lot of strength though.

JaronK

[The Glyphstone]

Not a chance. The spell selection is all wrong, the build doesn't really do anything and he's spontaneous so there's little to do to fix the eff-ups. He doesn't have Epic Spellcasting nor any of the epic spellcasting feats so I don't see him having the relevant advantages you need to take out a deity.

Indeed. Any deity with at least 6th level cleric spells can just cast a series of Energy Immunity spells and be 100% immune to any sort of spell damage he can cause, while their DR or Fast Healing soaks the rest.

Heck, a non-Epic Wizard 20 could take that down with careful spell selection.

[NecroRick]

In the hecatoncheires lore it is said that this abomination can destroy entire pantheons.

I think that's BS because I was wondering how, with alter reality, a deity was not like Pun-Pun.

Or maybe the deities are just too retarded to do infinite loops?

In any case, I think it's impossible for a deity who knows what s/he's doing to die.

The problem with pun-pun-isation is that (at least the versions I've seen) it requires co-operation of some other entity, e.g. your familiar.

So you turn your familiar into a Dragon. Dragon says "thanks bud, I'll be off now". And away he flies. If he's a Dragon, _he_ no longer needs _you_ :D

If the player complains, the DM can say that the familiar is only bound to the player so long as it stays in its original form (which is _at least_ as valid a twisting and perversion of RAW as any that is required to PP)... but don't worry, in another year or so another Raven/Toad/Owl will turn up to pick up where the last one let off.

----

Why bring that up? Because the problem with gods is that they are _notoriously_ bad at cooperating. It is practically the defining feature of (for instance) the Greek Pantheon that they are all shagging anything they can get their hands on, while simultaneously back-stabbing everything else.

Pantheons are what happens before TVs are invented and you get soap operas. :D

[NecroRick]

One can come up with a devious intrigue to kill followers of the deity..... They may lack powerful class features. Their cohorts do not.

You: "hey I have this cunning plan to kill $deity"
Cohort: "I tender my resignation, effective immediately, and backdated to however far back in time $deity can see. Don't call, don't write, don't ever talk to me again. Goodbye, and bad luck."

[Taelas]

The problem with pun-pun-isation is that (at least the versions I've seen) it requires co-operation of some other entity, e.g. your familiar.

So you turn your familiar into a Dragon. Dragon says "thanks bud, I'll be off now". And away he flies. If he's a Dragon, _he_ no longer needs _you_ :D

If the player complains, the DM can say that the familiar is only bound to the player so long as it stays in its original form (which is _at least_ as valid a twisting and perversion of RAW as any that is required to PP)... but don't worry, in another year or so another Raven/Toad/Owl will turn up to pick up where the last one let off.

No, it isn't. Turning into a dragon would not invalidate the familiar bond, which means that the caster and the familiar are "practically one being".

[Welknair]

No one's mentioned the Athar? :smallconfused:

Immunity to all divine powers = dowant.

The Defiant is the PrC for the Athar and is presented in... Guide to the Planes? Or Manual of the Planes? I forget which.

[MarkusWolfe]

One can come up with a devious intrigue to kill followers of the deity. All of them at once. This method is reserved mostly for aristocrats (particularly those really wealthy ones with high leadership scores). Requires perfect timing, many henchmen, insane conspiracy. Therefore it is virtually impossible. But hey, why not try?

Because if you're using D&D 3.5 cosmology, the gods still have followers on the other infinite Material planes. Of course, that's not to say it wouldn't work for other cosmologies...

On a related note: How many levels in fighter do you need to be Kratos?

[Malimar]

No one's mentioned the Athar? :smallconfused:

Immunity to all divine powers = dowant.

The Defiant is the PrC for the Athar and is presented in... Guide to the Planes? Or Manual of the Planes? I forget which.

I did, near the beginning of the conversation. The problem is that it gives you immunity to damage from divine power, and various resistances to divine spells. This hypothetical deity has no ranks in any divine spellcasting classes, so he only has spell-like abilities and salient divine abilities, no divine spells. He can still do anything other than damage you with those abilities.

P.S. The Athar and Defiant are in Planar Handbook, though I wouldn't stake money on them not being anywhere else.