Ardent - Sanity check

[Nich_Critic]

Ok, so we all know the Ardent, and it's interesting RAW way of learning powers (e.g., the highest you can manifest).

What's preventing an ardent of say, 4th level with the overchannel feat from learning a 3rd level power by augmenting his manifester level up to 5? Sure, he would take 1d8 damage every time he tried to use it, but that's still pretty small damage. The feat scales (in a limited way) as well, so an Ardent could learn many spells early?

Am I missing some line of text that prevents this?

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Yeah, it looks exactly like it works that way.

[Starbuck_II]

Ok, so we all know the Ardent, and it's interesting RAW way of learning powers (e.g., the highest you can manifest).

What's preventing an ardent of say, 4th level with the overchannel feat from learning a 3rd level power by augmenting his manifester level up to 5? Sure, he would take 1d8 damage every time he tried to use it, but that's still pretty small damage. The feat scales (in a limited way) as well, so an Ardent could learn many spells early?

Am I missing some line of text that prevents this?

Well, it would a power not a spell. But you are technically correct: the best kind. :smalltongue:

[subject42]

This is very similar to the hotly-debated question of "is it legal to use an item to qualify for a feat or prestige class?". If you look around here or Brilliant Gameologists you'll see a lot of conflicting opinions.

If your DM allows it, your interpretation is probably the most logical.

[Necroticplague]

Sure, he would take 1d8 damage every time he tried to use it, but that's still pretty small damage. The feat scales (in a limited way) as well, so an Ardent could learn many spells early?


Wait, their are people who take Overchannel and not Talented?

[Godskook]

Doesn't work.

The feat's wording only raises manifester level while manifesting

[Cog]

She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it, however.

While manifesting a power, you can increase your effective manifester level by one...
Overchannel isn't a separate action, so you don't have to be able to manifest the given power without Overchannel to choose it - so long as you are capable of using Overchannel, you are capable of getting the required manifester level, and so you are capable of choosing the power.

[dextercorvia]

See Also: Earth Power, Torc of Power Preservation.

[Moriato]

Overchannel isn't a separate action, so you don't have to be able to manifest the given power without Overchannel to choose it

I'm going to have to disagree with that statement. I would say that the fact that it's not a seperate action means that you have to be able to manifest the power before you can overchannel it. You use overchannel while manifesting the power. If you can't already manifest it, then you can't overchannel it.

[Cog]

You use overchannel while manifesting the power.
Exactly. You check whether you're capable of doing the event at the time you attempt it, just like that's when you check level for duration, PP available, and everything else. While you're manifesting, you have the required ML, because there's no "before" to check - anything that's happened before you attempt to manifest is irrelevant.

[Moriato]

Exactly. You check whether you're capable of doing the event at the time you attempt it, just like that's when you check level for duration, PP available, and everything else. While you're manifesting, you have the required ML, because there's no "before" to check - anything that's happened before you attempt to manifest is irrelevant.

You and I must have different definitions of the word while. To me, if I'm going to do Action B while doing Action A, I first have to be doing Action A to begin with. I can't, for example, answer the phone while driving, if I'm not already driving. Similarly, I can't see someone overchanneling a power while manifesting it, if they're not already manifesting it.

[olentu]

Based on memory I suppose the question boils down to is choosing the power something that is part of manifesting a power or is it something that is done before one starts. Resolution of this would likely require dissection of the text that describes the action of manifesting a power but I shall leave that up to someone else to do if they so desire.

[dextercorvia]

Based on memory I suppose the question boils down to is choosing the power something that is part of manifesting a power or is it something that is done before one starts. Resolution of this would likely require dissection of the text that describes the action of manifesting a power but I shall leave that up to someone else to do if they so desire.

It would if Ardent required a certain ML, but it doesn't. It requires you to be able to Manifest the power that you want to learn. If you can get the cost down, your ML up, or a combination of the two, even if it would only be at the hypothetical moment of manifesting, then you could manifest that power, and that makes it a valid choice for learning.

[olentu]

It would if Ardent required a certain ML, but it doesn't. It requires you to be able to Manifest the power that you want to learn. If you can get the cost down, your ML up, or a combination of the two, even if it would only be at the hypothetical moment of manifesting, then you could manifest that power, and that makes it a valid choice for learning.

Ah I see the problem. I have neglected to quote the tangent to which I was referring. I can see why it seems to me your response is not directly related to what I was talking about as I was being very specific.


However I see no reason to let such an opportunity pass us by and so regardless of what I actually think on the matter let me say the following.


For the sake of discussion let us say that choosing a power to manifest is not part of manifesting a power. Now then as we know overchannel can not be used except while manifesting a power and thus in this hypothetical one can not activate overchannel while choosing a power.

Taking that hypothetical situation let us consider what one does when choosing a power. One can chose a power they know provided that they can manifest powers of that level or higher. I am going to contend that the restriction on able to manifest powers of that level or higher includes the following.

First that time without change in statistics is not a factor as barring certain abilities that let one manifest multiple powers at the same time one can not manifest more than one power at a time.

Second that the requirement is referring to both the ability to pay the minimum required power point cost and of course any other restrictions on the character that might block usage of powers of a level.

Third that we ignore the case of expenditure of charged items as that is really a separate discussion.

Fourth that the restriction is in reference to the users current statistics.


if one were to take those as the correct interpretation than it does matter when one can actually activate overchannel. And since in this hypothetical the assumption is that one is not manifesting a power when choosing one and thus one can not overchannel. Since one can not overchannel their manifester level is not increased and they are not able to choose a power to manifest with the increased manifester level since their current statistics do not include it.






Now then all this would would be for naught if you did not at least attempt to rebut the point I am currently choosing to champion for the sake of discussion so I leave that to you. Personally it seems that you would choose to attack the final part and so I have presented a short explanation for your debating pleasure.

As to the restriction to current statistics. Where is the cutoff in regards to some statistic that they gain later. It seems to me that the difference is between static statistics and allowance for changing statistics. However while I would say there is a clear restriction when one chooses static statistics I can not find any good reason why one set of changed statistics would be better than another. So without a very good justification I can not find it anything but excessively arbitrary to cut off the time frame for changed statistics at any point meaning that should one ever at any time in the future gain the ability to manifest powers of a level it counts for all past times.

Well there you go.

[dextercorvia]

I have no problem with your first few assumptions:

A) That manifesting a power is not part of choosing a power, therefore

B) You may not overchannel during the process of choosing a power.

C) No expenditure of limited resources. (While I don't necessarily agree with this one, I'll let it stand for this discussion.)

However this last one seems to be the source of our disagreement:

D) The restriction is in reference to the users current statistics.

It seems to me that your argument (correct me if I am wrong here), is that an Ardent may only choose a power that they can manifest as they are in that instant, without any modification. The problem with that (and therefore assumption D) is that if she hasn't learned the power yet, she simply can't manifest it. This means that her learning mechanism has to be based on possibility rather than static ability. She can learn it if she could manifest it once known.


You were up front with your assumptions, so let me be up front with mine.


At each additional level, an ardent learns one new power from her available mantles. She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it, however.

a) When a class description refers to level, without modification, it is referring to class level.

b) You accept that a multiclass Ardent with the Practiced Manifester feat can use her adjusted ML to select powers known.

c) There is no minimum ML for an Ardent to manifest a power, except indirectly through PP expenditure. (This hasn't come into play yet, but it should give you an idea of my worldview.)

The crux of my argument is this: An Ardent may choose a new power known from their available mantles, so long as she will be able to manifest it at her new Ardent level. This includes any abilities she has that raise her manifester level or lower the cost of the power, if she can exercise those abilities as an Ardent of that level. In other words, an Ardent may choose a power known, if she could immediately after that choice, manifest that power.

[olentu]

I have no problem with your first few assumptions:

A) That manifesting a power is not part of choosing a power, therefore

B) You may not overchannel during the process of choosing a power.

C) No expenditure of limited resources. (While I don't necessarily agree with this one, I'll let it stand for this discussion.)

However this last one seems to be the source of our disagreement:

D) The restriction is in reference to the users current statistics.

It seems to me that your argument (correct me if I am wrong here), is that an Ardent may only choose a power that they can manifest as they are in that instant, without any modification. The problem with that (and therefore assumption D) is that if she hasn't learned the power yet, she simply can't manifest it. This means that her learning mechanism has to be based on possibility rather than static ability. She can learn it if she could manifest it once known.


You were up front with your assumptions, so let me be up front with mine.



a) When a class description refers to level, without modification, it is referring to class level.

b) You accept that a multiclass Ardent with the Practiced Manifester feat can use her adjusted ML to select powers known.

c) There is no minimum ML for an Ardent to manifest a power, except indirectly through PP expenditure. (This hasn't come into play yet, but it should give you an idea of my worldview.)

The crux of my argument is this: An Ardent may choose a new power known from their available mantles, so long as she will be able to manifest it at her new Ardent level. This includes any abilities she has that raise her manifester level or lower the cost of the power, if she can exercise those abilities as an Ardent of that level. In other words, an Ardent may choose a power known, if she could immediately after that choice, manifest that power.

Looking at your last sentence there in lies the crux of the matter the ability to manifest. Sure they need to manifest the power at the level they learn it but if manifesting can use the future they they can manifest the power at the level they learn it as at all levels one can use future stats to determine manifestation.

I still see no reason to allow one change of stats over another for determining manifesting except for every change in stats versus all cases of arbitrarily allowing some and not others. And of course since the powers one can learn depend on the powers one can manifest and not the other way around the ardent restriction is automatically satisfied no matter what one chooses as to manifesting.

Now sure there are some strange interactions with static statistics but I would say the same about changed statistics especially with arbitrary cutoff. I have no problem with the rules making crazy interactions but I can not help but feel that anything but static or any and all changed statistics are the two least arbitrary options.

[dextercorvia]

We both know I didn't suggest manifesting based on future stats. That is a straw man.

Either an Ardent must choose powers know which he can currently manifest, which means he never learns any powers after 1st level, or he learns powers based on the fact that that character could manifest that power at that ardent level if he knew it. I say that character, and not just vanilla Ardent 5, because the writer uses the personal pronoun here.

This is akin to a Wizard with Precocious Apprentice hitting level two. Guess what, he can add second level spells to his book.

[potatocubed]

It depends on whether you think the 'check' to see if you can manifest a power takes place before or after you manifest.

Either you believe the sequence runs "I want to manifest a power. Am I high enough level to manifest this one? No? Then I cannot manifest it." or you believe the sequence runs "I manifest this power. Am I high enough level? No? Then it fails."

The key difference being that in the latter case, you are always considered to be manifesting when you attempt to manifest a power - even if it's one you don't know or can't learn. This lets the Overchannel trick work, but it starts to interact weirdly with other powers.

For example - and I just picked this up flicking through my XPH here - the Energy X line of powers all begin with the text "Upon manifesting this power...". It doesn't specify the manifestation has to be successful, just that you do it.

Personally, I think the tacit assumption of the rules is that you make all your checks regarding whether or not you can manifest a power (make an attack, cast a spell) before the action takes place. Otherwise, things start getting a little weird.

[dextercorvia]

Ardents don't have a minimum ML to manifest a power. There is nothing to check before they manifest it. You don't expend power points until you are manifesting. That is where the check is.

[classy one]

The only other class with this problem is cognition thief from PGtF. Since it was published before CPsi, there was no issue with practised manifester.

The whole question of "what is the highest level power you can pick" gets even messier when you consider all manifesting classes say they can manifest powers with PP cost equal to or less than their ML. Then we have a feat like expanded knowledge which let's you Pick powers of one level less than what your maximum. So even though your level 17 psywar can only pick level 6 powers, he could manifest level 9 powers based on his ML. Hence he can take level 8 powers? This gets even more murky when you implant powers with chiurgery.

[dextercorvia]

The only other class with this problem is cognition thief from PGtF. Since it was published before CPsi, there was no issue with practised manifester.

The whole question of "what is the highest level power you can pick" gets even messier when you consider all manifesting classes say they can manifest powers with PP cost equal to or less than their ML. Then we have a feat like expanded knowledge which let's you Pick powers of one level less than what your maximum. So even though your level 17 psywar can only pick level 6 powers, he could manifest level 9 powers based on his ML. Hence he can take level 8 powers? This gets even more murky when you implant powers with chiurgery.

I haven't looked up Chiurgery lately, but you can only manifest powers that you know. So a Psywar taking expanded knowledge can't grab 8th level powers without some other shenanigans.

[Cog]

Yeah, every manifesting class (that I'm aware of) besides Ardent has a "maximum power level known" column on its class chart, which is a much harder limit than manifester level. Ardent could have both kept its current method of gaining powers and had a limit column as well, and it would have worked without a hitch. That the writers decided not to give it such a limit is the key to this.

[dextercorvia]

Yeah, every manifesting class (that I'm aware of) besides Ardent has a "maximum power level known" column on its class chart, which is a much harder limit than manifester level. Ardent could have both kept its current method of gaining powers and had a limit column as well, and it would have worked without a hitch. That the writers decided not to give it such a limit is the key to this.

It's funny to me, because they even managed it for the Divine Mind -- the other mantled castermanifester in the same section of the book. Of course, it has a stunted ML progression, so maybe they thought people would need help with the math.

[classy one]

I haven't looked up Chiurgery lately, but you can only manifest powers that you know. So a Psywar taking expanded knowledge can't grab 8th level powers without some other shenanigans.

Expanded Knowledge doesn't specify if it is the highest level power you can currently manifest or one that you have the potential to manifest.


A wilder can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than her manifester level.
This same quote applies for any manifesting class other than ardent.


Expanded Knowledge
.....
Benefit
Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list.
so a psywar 17 could manifest a 9th level power, hence EK would let him pick a 8th level power.

Chiurgery can transfer powers into someone's head as long as they can manifest it (ie have enough ML) regardless of if that power is on their usual list.




Transfer Knowledge
If desired, you can use this power to directly transfer knowledge of a power you know to another psionic character. You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest, even if the power is not normally on the character’s power list. Knowledge of powers gained through psychic chirurgery does not count toward the maximum number of powers a character can know per level.


Another way to look at it would be a psion 20 that picked all level 1 and 2 powers. If she took EK, would she only be able to pick level one powers? I certainly don't think so.

[dextercorvia]

From the Powers section:


Manifesting Powers

Psionic characters and creatures manifest powers. Whether they cost power points when manifest by a psionic character, or are manifested as psi-like abilities, powers’ effects remain the same. The process of manifesting a power is akin to casting a spell, but with significant differences.

Choosing A Power

First you must choose which power to manifest. You can select any power you know, provided you are capable of manifesting powers of that level or higher. To manifest a power, you must pay power points, which count against your daily total. You can manifest the same power multiple times if you have points left to pay for it.

[Cog]

The Psychic Warrior has additional limits on its powers known. Given two restrictions and the ability to apply both, both must apply; they are not exclusive.

[Arbitrarious]

Ardents don't have a minimum ML to manifest a power. There is nothing to check before they manifest it. You don't expend power points until you are manifesting. That is where the check is.

I respectfully disagree on that. If you cannot manifest the power without overchannel you cannot begin the manifesting to augment the power to start with since the action is illegal when you choose it, therefore overchannel would never get the opportunity to apply. As you said you actually spend power points when you manifest, but to choose a power to manifest you have to be able to spend the powers minimum power point cost, which you can't do unless you're were already able to do so.

You are not actively manifesting when you choose a power, Overchannel's effect isn't checked and it uses your actual manifester level. Overchannel's increase is only during the manifesting action, like a temporary buff that you can activate under a certain circumstance similar to barbarian rage or the bonus HD bard's can grant.

At least that is how I see it. I can't see a good reason to give ardents another boost to power selection.

[dextercorvia]

First you must choose which power to manifest.

When manifesting a power, the first thing you do is choose a power. Once you have chosen the power you are manifesting, and may apply Overchannel. Then, you choose what ML you manifest at.

You seem to be arguing that you must be able to pay the unaltered power point cost with your default manifester level, before you can even choose which power you manifest. Can you point to a rules quote that supports that position. The only conditions that I can find are:


You can select any power you know, provided you are capable of manifesting powers of that level or higher.

Since the Ardent has no maximum power level known, this must mean an ability to pay.

Take an example from real life. I take a dollar and a coupon to the store to buy a toothbrush that costs 1.50. If the coupon is for 50 cents of or more, I am capable of buying the toothbrush (neglecting taxes as irrelevant) even though I can't afford the original price. Overchannel, is like that coupon, in that it enables me to pay more than I normally could.

[olentu]

We both know I didn't suggest manifesting based on future stats. That is a straw man.

Either an Ardent must choose powers know which he can currently manifest, which means he never learns any powers after 1st level, or he learns powers based on the fact that that character could manifest that power at that ardent level if he knew it. I say that character, and not just vanilla Ardent 5, because the writer uses the personal pronoun here.

This is akin to a Wizard with Precocious Apprentice hitting level two. Guess what, he can add second level spells to his book.

Oh I see the problem now when I originally framed my example I said choosing a power to manifest and apparently you read that as choosing a power to learn.

This all goes back to my original statement that whether overchannel can work for manifesting a power depends on whether choosing a power to manifest is part of manifesting a power or not. However as outside of the hypothetical example and discussion fo the same I do not believe I stated whether choosing a power to manifest was or was not actually part of manifesting a power I believe I did not claim that overchannel did or did not work except to frame an example.

So I was framing a hypothetical situation that demonstrated that if choosing a power to manifest was not part of manifesting a power then overchannel would present the problem of allowing the use of future stats in manifesting. Thus clearly if choosing a power to manifest was not part of manifesting overchannel should probably not be allowed to work. And so finally overchannel working or not does depend on if choosing a power to manifest is or is not part of manifesting a power.

In any case it seems as this was not actually a disagreement but rather a misunderstanding.

[dextercorvia]

Alright, I think I see what you are saying. Correct me if I'm wrong:

If choosing a power is not part of manifesting, then the ML increase from Overchannel may not be taken into consideration when choosing powers.


Fortunately, I was coming back here today to address this very issue. I wasn't satisfied with the tense of my former post.

I would argue that the phrase, "First you must choose a power," within the context of Manifesting a Power, means that that is the first step of manifesting. If it is the first step, then you may use Overchannel. Unfortunately, the English language isn't clear on this, as the word first might mean something which has to happen before. However, context is out clue. The sentence before states, "The process of manifesting a power...." Therefore, what is being described is a process. Ergo, the use of "first" should rightly be parsed to mean the first step in the process.

[classy one]

Ah it never occurred to me to look up the definition of manifesting. So it does specify powers that you currently can manifest. Thanks for the correction

[olentu]

Alright, I think I see what you are saying. Correct me if I'm wrong:

If choosing a power is not part of manifesting, then the ML increase from Overchannel may not be taken into consideration when choosing powers.


Fortunately, I was coming back here today to address this very issue. I wasn't satisfied with the tense of my former post.

I would argue that the phrase, "First you must choose a power," within the context of Manifesting a Power, means that that is the first step of manifesting. If it is the first step, then you may use Overchannel. Unfortunately, the English language isn't clear on this, as the word first might mean something which has to happen before. However, context is out clue. The sentence before states, "The process of manifesting a power...." Therefore, what is being described is a process. Ergo, the use of "first" should rightly be parsed to mean the first step in the process.

The basic idea was that overchanel working or not depends on whether or not the choose a power to manifest step is part of manifesting a power.

Of course with the added caveat that I was too lazy to actually look up the rules and so choosing a power could just as easily be part of manifesting as it could not. Meaning that I did not claim that it worked either way except so much as to construct hypothetical situations in order to demonstrate why determining this distinction was important.

But as you seem to have taken the taken the time to bring up the text I suppose that this is all resolved unless someone cares to dispute your reading. I certainly don't having no preference as to the final result as my only stake was that the appropriate point be attempted to be addressed.

[Cog]

Ah it never occurred to me to look up the definition of manifesting. So it does specify powers that you currently can manifest. Thanks for the correction
No, you just inserted some words that neither dextercorvia nor the text used. "That you currently can manifest" is not there, merely "choose a power" alone.

[dextercorvia]

No, you just inserted some words that neither dextercorvia nor the text used. "That you currently can manifest" is not there, merely "choose a power" alone.

I think you are remembering Arbitrarious. Classy One wanted PsyWarriors to be able to knab higher level powers via Expanded Knowledge.

[Cog]

Ah, as in "power you currently know how to manifest". Okay, yeah.

[Arbitrarious]

I think you are remembering Arbitrarious. Classy One wanted PsyWarriors to be able to knab higher level powers via Expanded Knowledge.

No, my thing was having choosing a power being separate from the actual manifestation and the interaction thereof. But i guess I chalk that up to a difference of opinion. Unfortunately since the ardent didn't exist when the general manifesting rules were written they do not seamlessly apply to ardent. Either way as I said I don't feel ardents need the help with getting access to higher level powers, but ymmv I guess.