New Character: Witch or Oracle? [Pathfinder only]

[SexyPlantLover]

Hi. I'm looking for build and character advice on an upcoming game. Thanks in advance.

Campaign is: a dark army was trapped in a shadow realm for 1000yrs and now has found a way out and are reconquering this area of the main realm they used to control; we are part of this army. The two other people I know are playing have a deep gnome master chymist and the other is unsure (talked about a trapper ranger).

I want to play a drow that used divination magic to stay alive in her house. I was first planning on playing a witch, but now the ultimate magic has the oracle seer archtype. My problem is I really didn't want to play an oracle (don't like the curse, couldn't choose a mystery or revelations with so many choices.)

I'm looking for advice on which to choose, how to build, thoughts and opinions. Campaign will start at level 1 and last until 10 (I'm guessing). I've only played one PF campaign before and had fun with a ranger/wizard/arcane archer who had a trick for every situiation. I like to have something for every occurance, and I don't know how to with these class features that only work once or twice per day. All PF material is allowed as is homebrewed options...

[Curious]

A witch is a great option, with lots of flavor too. Since you have both spells and hexes, you are pretty much the ultimate de-buffer and party support. Starting at first level, one of the best combos is to get Extra Hex as your first level feat, and then choose 'Cackle' and 'Misfortune'. It is an incredibly potent combination; you start the battle, and slap down a misfortune on the most menacing enemy. This forces them to roll every d20 twice and take the worse result, but unfortunately it only lasts one round. But! since Cackle is only a move action, on the same turn that you lay the misfortune down on your enemy, you can cackle at him as well, giving him two rounds of terrible pain. On your next turn, you can Cackle at your unfortunate enemy again to extend the hex for another round, and keep on doing that whenever you have a spare move action, and still cast spells!

If you do make it up to tenth level, split hex is a great feat for doubling up this combo.

I love witches. :smallwink:

[Stone Heart]

If you don't like the oracles curse, I found a way to eliminate one of them. Take the lame curse and flame mystery. Lame reduces your speed by 10 feet if your base is 30, by 5 if less, and one of the flame revelations (cinder dance I believe) increases your speed by 10 feet. If you are a dwarf you are actually faster than the average dwarf while being crippled. (I know you want to be a Drow, but I just felt like pointing out a good (ab)use of it)

[grarrrg]

If you don't like the oracles curse, I found a way to eliminate one of them. Take the lame curse and flame mystery. Lame reduces your speed by 10 feet if your base is 30, by 5 if less, and one of the flame revelations (cinder dance I believe) increases your speed by 10 feet. If you are a dwarf you are actually faster than the average dwarf while being crippled. (I know you want to be a Drow, but I just felt like pointing out a good (ab)use of it)

Cinder Dance explicitly states that it CANNOT be taken by a Lame Oracle.

[Stone Heart]

I have the book in my lap and cinder dance says no such thing in it.

Edit: But the srd does, weak.

[Paul H]

Hi

One of the Curses afflict you with poltergeists that make you take longer to get things out of your backpack, but grant extra spells. Eschew Materials mitigates this.

Thanks
Paul H

[NamelessNPC]

You don't need Eschew Material, the SRD explicitly states that the haunted curse does not interfere with spell components. Please people, read the SRD

[navar100]

Game mechanics are important. However, I have found that when I can't decide between different character concepts for a new game because I like all of them, I start by stop thinking about them. Instead, during the week or so before the game starts - before bed, eating dinner, during a tv commerical break, commuting. whenever I have some free personal time - I think about the game. I imagine what my character would do and want and how he goes about doing it. When I figure out his personality and how he wants to accomplish his goals, the character class comes from that.

You already know you want to play a spellcaster of some kind. Great. How do you envision doing your magic? Answer that, you'll make your decision.

[Paul H]

You don't need Eschew Material, the SRD explicitly states that the haunted curse does not interfere with spell components. Please people, read the SRD

Hi

As an aside.......

NOTHING is said about that in the ACTUAL book. (APG Pg 44)

Please people, check the actual official printed material, then the erratas, not depend on the SRD which may or may not be accurate.

Thanks
Paul H

[grarrrg]

Hi

As an aside.......

NOTHING is said about that in the ACTUAL book. (APG Pg 44)

Please people, check the actual official printed material, then the erratas, not depend on the SRD which may or may not be accurate.

Thanks
Paul H

Link to Pathfinder Errata (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/resources).

The Errata does state that Lame Oracles cannot choose Cinder Dance.

Nothing is mentioned about Haunted and Spell component pouch interactions.
HOWEVER
The Oracle is a Primary Caster type class, and having one of the class's primary abilities (optional or not) nerf you down to "takes 2 rounds to cast (most) spells" would be beyond retarded.
I could maybe see 2 rounds per spell on a secondary casting class (i.e. more power, less often), but NEVER on a primary.

[subject42]

Nothing is mentioned about Haunted and Spell component pouch interactions.

I can't find the link now, but I believe that The Holy Designer stated that the haunted curse doesn't impact components in a forum post. Given that most errata are eventually pulled straight out of the forums, it's a good assumption that the intention is there.

[Reverent-One]

It's in the FAQ for the APG (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8fo1/faq).

[SexyPlantLover]

Thanks for the feedback and (almost) work-arounds for the pesky oracle curses.

I've decided to go witch for the first couple levels at least and roll-play up the divination aspect. I'll put a rank in profession (fortune-teller) and get a deck of fortune cards, choose summon monster spell and kill it to read it's entrails, and have a lucky rabbit's foot from my first (pre-game) familiar.
Eventually I may pick up a level or 3 of oracle with the seer archtype after a battle where I get wounded and take the lame curse.

[Gnaeus]

Eventually I may pick up a level or 3 of oracle with the seer archtype after a battle where I get wounded and take the lame curse.

From an optimization standpoint, this is a very bad idea. Oracle is a good class. Witch is a good class. Witch7/Oracle3 is weaker than Oracle 10 or Witch 10. Never lose caster levels unless what you are gaining is full of awesomeness (or you want to intentionally weaken your character for balance reasons).

[PinkysBrain]

For whatever reason Paizo has decided not to follow the 3.5 route of creating dual progression PrCs (beyond the couple in the original PHB). While at the same time giving each base class a greater amount of class progression.

Multiclassing and Pathfinder are thus very poorly compatible.

[Luckmann]

For whatever reason Paizo has decided not to follow the 3.5 route of creating dual progression PrCs (beyond the couple in the original PHB). While at the same time giving each base class a greater amount of class progression.

Multiclassing and Pathfinder are thus very poorly compatible.Well there's always the Mystic Theurge. With the caveat that dual progression is the one big thing it gives.

On the other hand, that thing is also quite a big thing.

[grarrrg]

Well there's always the Mystic Theurge. With the caveat that dual progression is the one big thing it gives.

On the other hand, that thing is also quite a big thing.

On the plus side, PF Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/mystic-theurge) has CLASS FEATURES! (yes, plural, it has TWO!!!, well, other than the "dual casting progression" thing)

The first let's you cast Divine from Arcane slots and/or Arcane from Divine slots (which is slightly better for Spontaneous casters than Prepared)

The second you don't get until the 10th level, and you can only use it once per day, but you can cast 2 spells in the same action.

Yeah, Mystic Theurge is still not ideal, but at least it's better.

[jmelesky]

On the plus side, PF Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/mystic-theurge) has CLASS FEATURES! (yes, plural, it has TWO!!!, well, other than the "dual casting progression" thing)

Yeah, most of the PF PrCs got upgrades from their 3.5 counterparts (presumably to make them more tempting now that single-classing makes more sense). Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/arcane-trickster), in particular, got some nice upgrades (i mean, really, did we need to limit Ranged Legerdemain to x/day?).

[Luckmann]

Yeah, most of the PF PrCs got upgrades from their 3.5 counterparts (presumably to make them more tempting now that single-classing makes more sense). Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/arcane-trickster), in particular, got some nice upgrades (i mean, really, did we need to limit Ranged Legerdemain to x/day?).No. We really did not.

Anyway, dual casting is extremely powerful. It makes sense that it would be the big thing of a single strong PRC. It can't be handed out like candy. Pathfinder is a tad more balanced than 3.5, but spellcasters sure as hell don't need more, or new, cheese. :smallbiggrin:

[SexyPlantLover]

Thanks for the prestige class suggestion, but if we get that high of level I'll probably homebrew something for just this game. I'm percolating something combining the brightness seeker tweeked for shadow creatures with the harrower and dual casting...but we'll see how the game goes and the character grows.

I am going in with eyes open.
Although losing casting wouldn't work in other groups, this DM rewards taking classes that match roleplaying flavor by giving good stuff and appropriately difficult challenges. Plus, we've got two brand new gamers, so we'll all play easy so they can play what they want (a half-elf archer ranger and a half-orc throw anything barbarian adding to an alchemist, another ranger and my witch). Since I'll already be the only caster so i'm going pure debuff and cool tricks. I'm looking forward to that cackle with misfortune... *small evil grin*

[Rixx]

I believe oracles with the Nature mystery actually can read entrails as a Revelation at some point!

[IthroZada]

But! since Cackle is only a move action, on the same turn that you lay the misfortune down on your enemy, you can cackle at him as well, giving him two rounds of terrible pain. On your next turn, you can Cackle at your unfortunate enemy again to extend the hex for another round, and keep on doing that whenever you have a spare move action, and still cast spells!


It puts the weirdest image in my head that you can demoralize an enemy just by laughing at him for a couple of minutes straight.

[LordBlades]

It puts the weirdest image in my head that you can demoralize an enemy just by laughing at him for a couple of minutes straight.


You obviously haven't been made fun of/taunted properly :smallwink: From my experience, proper mockery is very effective at demoralizing people/groups of people.

[jmelesky]

It puts the weirdest image in my head that you can demoralize an enemy just by laughing at him for a couple of minutes straight.

Wait till you see the new Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic/chapter-3-feats/antagonize) feat from Ultimate Magic...

[Stone Heart]

I was just looking at the srd for the ultimate magic updates for the oracle, and I noticed that a lame oracle can take the Metal mystery and the revelation Dance of the blades, which would then increase their move speed by 10 feet, along with other things, making it much better than cinder dance. I have not gotten the book yet, but the srd says nothing against lame oracles taking it.

[grarrrg]

I was just looking at the srd for the ultimate magic updates for the oracle, and I noticed that a lame oracle can take the Metal mystery and the revelation Dance of the blades, which would then increase their move speed by 10 feet, along with other things, making it much better than cinder dance. I have not gotten the book yet, but the srd says nothing against lame oracles taking it.

Cinder Dance wasn't restricted the first time in print either. The errata fixed that.
Dance of the Blades is practically guaranteed to get errata similar to Cinder Dance.
The only question is whether they disallow Lame Oracles from taking it entirely, or if they just not allow them to get the movement increase.