How Thog might be defeated

[ArcaneSaint]

Roy is no match for Thog, without his magic items it all boils down to hard numbers/stats. Thog has more STR, which means in this arena setting, Thog will beat Roy.*

BUT!!!!

There's another fight going on, as we all know Haley's been turned into a heavy, stone statue in 789 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html), then she was shrunk by V in 790 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html). Now, the description of Shrink Item is as follows:
Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface
by tossing them onto any solid surface
any solid surface
Also, this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html). More specifically, the CLONK when Roy hit's Thog on the head with his sword. the usual method of acquiring a CLONK sound with a sword is by hitting a solid object with the sword.
So, Thog's head is very solid. (thick-headed some might say)
His head could also count as a smooth surface (since he's bald)
Thus, Thog's head is a solid surface, meaning that if he were hit by a shrunken statue, it would increase in size and crush him instantly.

Do I need to draw you a picture?**


*Huh, what, it's clear isn't it :smallconfused:
**I won't, 'cause I suck at drawing :smallbiggrin:, but if I'm right we'll soon see a very large picture of it.

[Absol197]

I'll allow that it is a possibility, but as Elan now has said statue, and is running exactly the opposite direction, I don't think it's exactly a very likely possibility.

[BlackestOfMages]

or he might win by beating him normally? y'know, not some badly veiled duex ex machina, as that joke's already been done

also, the clong sound is fairly common:smallwink:

[harmsc12]

clunk, not clong.

[silversaraph]

Thog/Therkla's father will come to kill Elan and Roy, but Tarquin will defend them. That's when Belkar's dad comes in and tries to kill Thog, only for both of them to be killed by Ian.

It is "The Fatherland" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0769.html), after all.

[Forum Explorer]

That sounds hilarious but I doubt that will happen. I think Roy will use some tatic like Sundering to take down Thog

[thubby]

roy has to have been doing something with all those bonus feats. with a respectable int, he should have expertise, and therefore potentially disarm.

[Cizak]

Possible, but I'd like it more if Roy got a win against a tough foe on his own. He hasn't had many of those lately.

[cheezewizz2000]

roy has to have been doing something with all those bonus feats. with a respectable int, he should have expertise, and therefore potentially disarm.

We're in core and Roy is a 13th (ish) level fighter. He should have Improved Trip, Improved Disam, Improved Feint, Improved Critical (Greatsword), Improved Critical (Sharp Sticks), Weapon Focus (cat held by tail), Skill focus (perform: balance spoon on nose)...

Edit: Perhaps he even took Skill Focus (Spell "Ballance" Correctly), unlike me.

[Dr.Epic]

Roy is no match for Thog, without his magic items it all boils down to hard numbers/stats. Thog has more STR, which means in this arena setting, Thog will beat Roy.*

Right, because feats and other stats don't matter. I mean, it's not like Roy's using a great sword, the weapon he uses all the time and as a fighter should have a lot of feats for.

[bladescape]

We're in core and Roy is a 13th (ish) level fighter. He should have Improved Trip, Improved Disam, Improved Feint, Improved Critical (Greatsword), Improved Critical (Sharp Sticks), Weapon Focus (cat held by tail), Skill focus (perform: balance spoon on nose)...

Edit: Perhaps he even took Skill Focus (Spell "Ballance" Correctly), unlike me.

I think that should be Skill Focus(Don't doubt your original spelling.)

Balance has one 'l'.

[BlackestOfMages]

We're in core and Roy is a 13th (ish) level fighter. He should have Improved Trip, Improved Disam, Improved Feint, Improved Critical (Greatsword), Improved Critical (Sharp Sticks), Weapon Focus (cat held by tail), Skill focus (perform: balance spoon on nose)...

Edit: Perhaps he even took Skill Focus (Spell "Ballance" Correctly), unlike me.

16ish, for roy. he's described as the highest leveled member of the party, and V's able to cast 8th level spells, so 16 Roy's minimum.

though he does need those skills

[Studoku]

16ish, for roy. he's described as the highest leveled member of the party, and V's able to cast 8th level spells, so 16 Roy's minimum.
When has V cast an 8th level spell?

[Tricia]

Power Word: Stun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html)

[zimmerwald1915]

16ish, for roy. he's described as the highest leveled member of the party, and V's able to cast 8th level spells, so 16 Roy's minimum.

though he does need those skills
Huh? Where and more importantly when is this said? AFAIK, since the OOTS split they haven't been leveling at the same rate, so we can't deduce Roy's level from the others', and since Roy spent most of that split time dead rather than gaining XP, if he's an outlier in terms of levels he should have fewer than the rest of the party, not more.

[Hironomus]

I find it perfectly possible that Roy will beat Thog without relying on a feat he took that Thog didn't, or any other specific game rules factor. It is as Roy said. Even though he was apparently intellectually checkmated by Thog, his intelligence could make the difference in this fight. We are talking about the character who was defeated by 'cooties' on one occasion. Besides, they have been shown to be fairly well matched in the past anyway.

[ArcaneSaint]

Indeed, Thog was defeated by 'cooties' before, however don't forget that they are now fighting in an arena. As we all know, arenas aren't famous for their display of cooties during a fight, they also allow very little room for cunning tactics.I think, in a one-on-one fight in an open space like this with no magic items* Thog has the advantage. They'll just keep hitting each other until they drop. The one with the lowest stats (CON, STR, whatever you need to hit hard, survive being hit hard, not miss your target etc) will lose, which brings me to the next point

About the levels: In strip 581 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) it's explained that (in the OOTS comic at least)a personal rival will always be AT LEAST the same level as their prospective protagonist. I'm pretty sure Thog is a personal rival of Roy, seeing as how he functioned as his "twin" in the first Linear Guild encounter. This means, that with Roy's death and subsequent resurrection Thog's at least one level higher. Combined with the arena/magic items fact I'd say things look very grim for Roy.

*hmm, are those magic items still with Haley? If so, this means they have been shrunk as well, right?So the bag of tricks will summon either shrunken animals OR bacteria/virii: another way to defeat Thog This last sentence wasn't really meant serious:smallbiggrin:

[Hironomus]

Indeed, Thog was defeated by 'cooties' before, however don't forget that they are now fighting in an arena. As we all know, arenas aren't famous for their display of cooties during a fight, they also allow very little room for cunning tactics.I think, in a one-on-one fight in an open space like this with no magic items* Thog has the advantage. They'll just keep hitting each other until they drop. The one with the lowest stats (CON, STR, whatever you need to hit hard, survive being hit hard, not miss your target etc) will lose, which brings me to the next point

About the levels: In strip 581 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) it's explained that (in the OOTS comic at least)a personal rival will always be AT LEAST the same level as their prospective protagonist. I'm pretty sure Thog is a personal rival of Roy, seeing as how he functioned as his "twin" in the first Linear Guild encounter. This means, that with Roy's death and subsequent resurrection Thog's at least one level higher. Combined with the arena/magic items fact I'd say things look very grim for Roy.

*hmm, are those magic items still with Haley? If so, this means they have been shrunk as well, right?So the bag of tricks will summon either shrunken animals OR bacteria/virii: another way to defeat Thog This last sentence wasn't really meant serious:smallbiggrin:

I'm not suggesting that Roy will defeat Thog with cooties. Merely that Thog has gaping weaknesses as a result of his low intelligence. Roy will probably take advantage of this somehow. Roy's victory or defeat is not going to be purely action. Words in speech bubbles will almost certainly be involved. Either that or their match will not be concluded for some reason. I find this to be likely.

I don't think Thog is Roy's personal rival in that technical (rules) sense. They aren't really similar in any way except that they roughly fill the same role in their respective parties. Crystal and Hayley on the other hand met at a fairly young age and essentially started their careers together. That more than qualifies them to be rivals. Not that I am disagreeing with them being roughly equivalent levels.

As for your final paragraph, are you suggesting that Thog could indeed be defeated with cooties afterall? :smallamused:

[Toofey]

I don't know if you could do this in 3rd ed, but couldn't roy use a called shot to mess up one of thog's hand and seriously disrupt his ability to use a 2 handed axe?

[Red XIV]

Huh? Where and more importantly when is this said? AFAIK, since the OOTS split they haven't been leveling at the same rate, so we can't deduce Roy's level from the others', and since Roy spent most of that split time dead rather than gaining XP, if he's an outlier in terms of levels he should have fewer than the rest of the party, not more.
In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), Eugene says that Roy was the highest-level Good character in the Battle of Azure City. Of course, if (as is widely assumed) V was True Neutral at the time, that doesn't automatically mean Roy was higher in level than him/her, but it does definitively mean that he was higher than Haley, Elan, and Durkon. And I don't think there can be any doubt that he's higher level than Belkar.

Also, who says that you can't gain XP while dead? Roy did participate in defeating some enemies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html) while dead, after all.


About the levels: In strip 581 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) it's explained that (in the OOTS comic at least)a personal rival will always be AT LEAST the same level as their prospective protagonist. I'm pretty sure Thog is a personal rival of Roy, seeing as how he functioned as his "twin" in the first Linear Guild encounter. This means, that with Roy's death and subsequent resurrection Thog's at least one level higher. Combined with the arena/magic items fact I'd say things look very grim for Roy.
And I'd say you're making a very faulty assumption. There's no logical reason to see Roy and Thog as "personal rivals", given their lack of, for example, any history of rivalry.

[BlackestOfMages]

Roy got told to buy a feat as soon as he's resurected, and he did so, which implies he must have earned some XP while dead (and he did spend a lot of that time training) or he forgot to level before the huge battle against Xykon.

[Dr.Epic]

Roy got told to buy a feat as soon as he's resurected, and he did so, which implies he must have earned some XP while dead (and he did spend a lot of that time training) or he forgot to level before the huge battle against Xykon.

What? When did he gain a level to take a new feat?

[Squirrel_Token]

Roy got told to buy a feat as soon as he's resurected, and he did so, which implies he must have earned some XP while dead (and he did spend a lot of that time training) or he forgot to level before the huge battle against Xykon.

AFAIK, Roy was told to buy a feat when he was rez'd; at no point did we actually see him get the "ding" signifying leveling up, nor have we seen him use this new feat. I strongly suspect that leveling up and getting this feat is still on his (incredibly long) to-do list.

I believe it's also impossible according to the rules to get XP while dead, otherwise if you can still gain XP while dead there's no particular reason that he couldn't just level up and get the feat while still in the afterlife. But I don't actually care enough to look it up; in any case, even if he did get some XP I still argue as above that it wasn't enough for him to level up.

[Psyren]

If Roy doesn't have ComEx or any of the other feats that need Int to pull off, then he frankly deserves to lose here. All that natter about not all fighters being dumb and being genre savvy about D&D rules will have gone completely to waste otherwise.

[JSSheridan]

Roy could throw some dirt in his eyes and initiate a grapple while Thog's disoriented. Then Roy's superior knowledge of grappling rules could give him victory.

[Claudius Maximus]

Thog would know the "bear hug to death" option at least, and he would beat Roy at that game.

I do think Combat Expertise and its very nice associates will be the key here. Disarm and trip in particular can turn this one around.

Or something narrative related will happen.

[faustin]

I'm not suggesting that Roy will defeat Thog with cooties. Merely that Thog has gaping weaknesses as a result of his low intelligence. Roy will probably take advantage of this somehow. Roy's victory or defeat is not going to be purely action. Words in speech bubbles will almost certainly be involved. Either that or their match will not be concluded for some reason. I find this to be likely.

If Elan can play psychological games with Thog, why cannot Roy?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html

Thog is an affable and childlish murderous barbarian, so is not difficult to manipule... at least for a while.

[Souhiro]

You know, I think that there are many of the Linear Guild hidden in there, since the only time we saw Thog's rage, was when Not-Nale convinced him to do.

But all those "Dragged in chains" and "Bound in an armor-sarcophagus" just tells me that Thog ends his combats raging. And a raging barbarian without more enemies is just.... well, there is a reason because Barbarian isn't a very popular class!

So I think that Roy could gain the upper hand in the combat, until Not-Elan just reveals himself and unleash Thog's rage

[Tanngrisnir]

I'll probably lose my faith in Roy if he doesn't win this fight solo. He is my favourite character but lately he hasn't really done anything to be proud of.

[BlackestOfMages]

AFAIK, Roy was told to buy a feat when he was rez'd; at no point did we actually see him get the "ding" signifying leveling up, nor have we seen him use this new feat. I strongly suspect that leveling up and getting this feat is still on his (incredibly long) to-do list.

I believe it's also impossible according to the rules to get XP while dead, otherwise if you can still gain XP while dead there's no particular reason that he couldn't just level up and get the feat while still in the afterlife. But I don't actually care enough to look it up; in any case, even if he did get some XP I still argue as above that it wasn't enough for him to level up.

he keeps saying he wants to try it out. ergo, he knows the feat or else his DM is nice and lets him try out his build before he selects it


You know, I think that there are many of the Linear Guild hidden in there, since the only time we saw Thog's rage, was when Not-Nale convinced him to do.

But all those "Dragged in chains" and "Bound in an armor-sarcophagus" just tells me that Thog ends his combats raging. And a raging barbarian without more enemies is just.... well, there is a reason because Barbarian isn't a very popular class!

So I think that Roy could gain the upper hand in the combat, until Not-Elan just reveals himself and unleash Thog's rage

nah, he was locked up in chains so the guards didn't have to listen to him talk, and also (probably) to build up suspense.

also, I think Rich has something against raging, as the only time we've seen it is in a single joke, and we've yet to see Belkar's rage (which I want to see)

[Skaven]

He just needs to sunder Thog's axe.

[Kish]

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), Eugene says that Roy was the highest-level Good character in the Battle of Azure City. Of course, if (as is widely assumed) V was True Neutral at the time, that doesn't automatically mean Roy was higher in level than him/her, but it does definitively mean that he was higher than Haley, Elan, and Durkon.
The only thing it definitively means is that Eugene is sniping at Roy. Don't confuse Word of Eugene with Word of God.

[Gorm_the_DBA]

also, I think Rich has something against raging, as the only time we've seen it is in a single joke, and we've yet to see Belkar's rage (which I want to see)


Sexy Shoeless God of War mean anything to ya?

I'd daresay that qualified as Belkar Rage.

[ArcaneSaint]

but lately he hasn't really done anything to be proud of.
What did you expect, he's a Fighter :smallamused:


In this strip, Eugene says that Roy was the highest-level Good character in the Battle of Azure City.
Emphasize was, in the meantime he died and got rezzed; Hayley and Belkar got to lead a resistance movement in a town filled with goblins (ok, true: Belkar could only attack the undead ones, and he lost at least one of his newly gained levels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html)). Vaarsuvius, Durkon and Elan had to deal with MANY random encounters on the fleet, and as V stated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html): more encounters= more XP = more levels = better chances to find miss Starshine. They also beat a freakin' huge one-in-a-million chance demon. The dragon V killed afterwards doesn't really count, as the soul splice prevented her from gaining any XP (something about "effective level"-nitpickery).

I just realized, nothing I said about Vaarsuvius and Belkar really mattered, as the quote was only about Good characters

[GSFB]

How Roy can win using brains:

Talk Thog into a rage. Goad Thog into using only all-out power attacks, giving up his entire BAB. Take pure defensive actions while moving away. Thog will pretty much only hit on a 20 (of course, that will a crit threat with a great axe and at least +15 from power attack while raging - so could be a one shot kill, but odds are in his favor and Roy has a LOT of HP). Wear Thog out. Then, when Thog's rage ends and exhaustion kicks in, sunder and subdual attack until Thog is incapacitated. Then, don't kill him. Show him mercy. Appeal to the shred of goodness we have seen in Thog on occasion, and convince him to become an ally.

[JSSheridan]

How Roy can win using brains:



There is a way I can think of.

Roy can let himself be backed against the wall. If he can provoke Thog to PA and be prepared to dodge the attack, Thog could have his axe lodged into the stonework or broken.

[Jaessick]

I'm just surprised no one has mentioned this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html), or possibly even this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) where we have proof he remembers something about it. I bet that's Roy's ace in the hole.

[Kish]

Yes, because Thog is totally a spellcaster. Oh wait.

It's a spellcaster-disrupting feat, not a "god-mode" feat.

[rewinn]

Roy's profession is fighter, and he's very good at it, but his role is party leader and that's where his int/wis has been most helpful, e.g. recruiting the Order to begin with and, after the re-uniting of the party, putting in detailed planning on attacking Xykon.

V learned a valuable lesson about going it alone, but Roy seems to have let his justified anger against Thog to fool him into a straight-up PvP where his advantages don't work. Maybe he can pull it off, but my money is on Roy Learning A Valuable Lesson.

[Jaessick]

The comic never said it would only disrupt spells and do no damage, and the way Thog is drawn in the arena his chest is completely uncovered and unarmored like a spellcaster's chest would be. I say it has a possibility of doing some major damage. Typically spellcaster's spells are disrupted by doing a lot of damage, why wouldn't this be the same?

[Kish]

What the comic said it does is: Disrupt spells.

Does that prove it doesn't do massive damage to barbarians? No. It doesn't prove it doesn't do anything. But it's really not that surprising, even on this forum, that few people have proposed that that feat will be Roy's "ace in the hole" against Thog.

[Jaessick]

The same feat is mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html) as the one that one-shotted the cleric here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). It has both a history of doing something other than disrupting spells while also acting as a chekhov's gun. Perfect time for Roy to test it out before tying it on Xykon.

[ArcaneSaint]

It's a feat used to disrupt spells. It probably deals some damage too, perhaps it even deals EXTRA damage to spellcasters, if a spell was interrupted. And I'm not really sure why, but somehow I think Thog has a little bit more health and constitution than your typical spellcaster.

[CletusMusashi]

I lean toward just cutting his axe-head off.
Roy has great cleavage.

[Snails]

Roy is no match for Thog, without his magic items it all boils down to hard numbers/stats. Thog has more STR, which means in this arena setting, Thog will beat Roy.

In #738, Ganji claims Enor would easily rip Roy to shreds "without all your fancy magic items". We can see that both Roy and Belkar think Ganji is quite likely to be correct.

In #773, Roy asked Haley to pick up his items. We assume she did so, but we never actually see her pick those items up, or whether she did sneak any back to Roy. Haley had the opportunity to do so.

So, in fact, it is quite possible that Roy does have some of his stuff. In context, we can reasonably guess Roy was expecting to be killed by Enor without a few helpers. Being the one with planning skills, he would not have passed up an opportunity to rectify the situation.

Even Raging, Thog without items is not stronger than Roy with his Belt of Giant Strength hidden under his rags.

Thus, I would expect Roy to be able to win in a straight "fair fight" with Thog.

[Kish]

In #738, Ganji claims Enor would easily rip Roy to shreds "without all your fancy magic items". We can see that both Roy and Belkar think Ganji is quite likely to be correct.
No, there is no indication Roy thinks Gannji is correct.

...or that Belkar does, as opposed to needling Roy by giving an enemy a recipe to cook Roy's heart.

[Scarlet Knight]

First, try the classic : "Hey, Thog! Your sandal's unbuckled! Let me hold your ax while you fix it."

Then you fall back on the other old classic: break out the lucky dice & roll really well.

[Squirrel_Token]

First, try the classic : "Hey, Thog! Your sandal's unbuckled! Let me hold your ax while you fix it."

Then you fall back on the other old classic: break out the lucky dice & roll really well.

I kind of doubt Thog's Sense Motive is very good given his readiness to believe anything Nale (or Elan) ever told him, so he might not even have to roll THAT well :smalltongue:

[ThePhantasm]

the shred of goodness we have seen in Thog on occasion

Ha Ha Ha LOL that's a good one. :smallbiggrin:

[Snails]

No, there is no indication Roy thinks Gannji is correct.

...or that Belkar does, as opposed to needling Roy by giving an enemy a recipe to cook Roy's heart.

Reasonable people may disagree about the most appropriate conclusion, but "no indication" is factually incorrect.

We have substantial circumstantial evidence to support Ganji.

(1) Roy does not provide a witty return to the taunting. It is not the norm for a PC or NPC to fail to challenge such, when the result should be reasonably doubted.

(2) Roy and Belkar are frowning. In context, it suggests both Roy and Belkar are afraid Ganji is right.

(3) Ganji's analysis makes solid sense in the context of the OotS universe. As this is a world whose metaphysics are governed by the rules of D&D, Enor is only slightly less powerful for having zero magic items now, as NPCs have usually have few, ever. Roy, as a PC, is losing out on more, because he owns much more. Roy may have smashed Enor in a fair bar fight, while sporting a Belt of Giant Strength, but he would likely have far more trouble without.

[Hironomus]

Even if this fight consists of them both just rolling attacks til the cows come home (which I strongly doubt it will) Roy would be in with a shot. The gulf in Thog and Roy's Physical abilities is really not that great.

Sure the odds are in Thog's favour, but Roy is strong enough that he doesn't need to be TOO lucky to win. He DOES have a better weapon than Thog. That gives him a small edge (pun not intended).

But really, if he wins in a straight, no tricks fights, my bet is it will be because of 'fluff' reasons. Roy "has what it takes to win", or in game terms a +2 circumstance bonus to all rolls. Because of determination. Or something.

Ack why can't the next comic just come out already!? :smallfrown:

[Kish]

Reasonable people may disagree about the most appropriate conclusion, but "no indication" is factually incorrect.

We have substantial circumstantial evidence to support Ganji.

(1) Roy does not provide a witty return to the taunting. It is not the norm for a PC or NPC to fail to challenge such, when the result should be reasonably doubted.

"A PC or NPC"?

If you mean "anyone," why don't you say "anyone"? We're apparently not going to agree here, since I find "they don't contradict him and they're frowning, that's evidence that they agree with him," a very weak argument, but I'm wondering if you mean to imply something about them being D&D characters here.

[ArcaneSaint]

In #773, Roy asked Haley to pick up his items. We assume she did so, but we never actually see her pick those items up, or whether she did sneak any back to Roy. Haley had the opportunity to do so.

I highly doubt she sneaked them back to Roy, it would probably have been mentioned by someone.


So, in fact, it is quite possible that Roy does have some of his stuff. In context, we can reasonably guess Roy was expecting to be killed by Enor without a few helpers. Being the one with planning skills, he would not have passed up an opportunity to rectify the situation.

I'll have to say no to this. Roy (and the other prisoners) were clothed in rags when they were in their large, featureless cell. They were armored when we saw them in strip 777 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0777.html), so they have been given all their equipment (weapons and armor) by the guards, who most likely supervised when the prisoners equipped themselves to prevent something like this from happening.


Even Raging, Thog without items is not stronger than Roy with his Belt of Giant Strength hidden under his rags.

Strip 791 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0791.html), notice how Roy isn't really wearing any rags anymore, just some shoulder pads, a (tight) loincloth and metal bracelets. There's not really much space to hide a Belt of Giant Strength under these now is there?


Thus, I would expect Roy to be able to win in a straight "fair fight" with Thog.
In a "fair fight" he'd stand a chance. In a fair fight, not so much.

[Psyren]

The only thing it definitively means is that Eugene is sniping at Roy. Don't confuse Word of Eugene with Word of God.

Even so, Roy didn't exactly challenge Eugene's assessment that he was the highest level at the time. I agree that Eugene isn't a direct line to the author in all cases, but we can trust that statement at least.

[CaptainIreland]

What the comic said it does is: Disrupt spells.

Don't confuse Word of Roy's Grandfather with Word of God.

[ThePhantasm]

Don't confuse Word of Roy's Grandfather with Word of God.

What do you mean by this? That Roy's grandfather, who has used the feat and should logically know about it and should also logically have no intent to deceive Roy, would say something misleading about its function? Is there any information from any character that we can trust?

[BlackestOfMages]

What do you mean by this? That Roy's grandfather, who has used the feat and should logically know about it and should also logically have no intent to deceive Roy, would say something misleading about its function? Is there any information from any character that we can trust?

I think he's referencing the damage the disruption did to the cleric, and the dummy whilst roy was practising the feat himself.

though it may just cause normal greatsword damage (I hardly doubt something done with a greatsword would do no damage, just from the nature of the tool) as he is a high level fighter, who's, as far as we know, solo'd at least two dragons...

so it may have just been base damage for him.

but yeah, we don't know if it causes extra damage or anyhting yet, until he actually uses it.:smallbiggrin:

[ThePhantasm]

I think he's referencing the damage the disruption did to the cleric, and the dummy whilst roy was practising the feat himself.


Ah, I see. That makes sense if so, but then how is his argument any different from Kish's?



Does that prove it doesn't do massive damage to barbarians? No. It doesn't prove it doesn't do anything. But it's really not that surprising, even on this forum, that few people have proposed that that feat will be Roy's "ace in the hole" against Thog.

I'm still not seeing where the whole "not the word of God" bit has relevance?

[martianmister]

Roy should try to outsmart him, like what Elan did before. But he is too straightforward for that.

[ThePhantasm]

Roy should try to outsmart him, like what Elan did before. But he is too straightforward for that.

Reeaaallllyyy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html)???

Too straightforward you say (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)?

[martianmister]

Reeaaallllyyy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html)???

Too straightforward you say (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)?

Toooooooo straightforward for thattttt.....

He see Thog as a "enemy that I should defeat in battle". He doesn't consider to manipulate him as a possible choice. Unlike to what Elan did before.

[CaptainIreland]

Ah, I see. That makes sense if so, but then how is his argument any different from Kish's?

I was throwing Kish's words back at him.

He said that Eugene shouldn't be taken as word of god, but was using Roy's Grandfather's words as word of god.

It wasn't intended to draw in a third party commenting on it.

[Kish]

I was throwing Kish's words back at him.

He said that Eugene shouldn't be taken as word of god, but was using Roy's Grandfather's words as word of god.

It wasn't intended to draw in a third party commenting on it.
Ah, so, you don't actually disagree that everything we know about the feat indicates that what it does is disrupt spellcasters, you just wanted me to know you have an issue with me. And you posted it on a public forum but it was supposed to be private. Got it.

[CaptainIreland]

Ah, so, you don't actually disagree that everything we know about the feat indicates that what it does is disrupt spellcasters, you just wanted me to know you have an issue with me. And you posted it on a public forum but it was supposed to be private. Got it.

Um...I don't have an issue with you.

I was cleverly pointing out that you said (rudely, to one poster) that Eugene could be wrong, but you also said there was no way that Roy's Grandfather could be wrong.

I have issue with inconsistency.

[BlackestOfMages]

Um...I don't have an issue with you.

I was cleverly? pointing out that you said (rudely, to one poster) that Eugene could be wrong, but you also said there was no way that Roy's Grandfather could be wrong.

I have issue with inconsistency.

please, move this discusion to private messages, rather than the main topic.

[ArcaneSaint]

*Ahem*
http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/members/vertigo+paris/albums/misc+pics-36/thread-derail-1953.jpg

Reeaaallllyyy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html)???

Too straightforward you say (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)?
If you would read these comics carefully, you'll notice that Roy's tactics always relied on being able to absorb damage. In 355 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.htm) he had to take Sabine's hits until all protective spells had worn off. In 216 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.htm) he kept charging the half-ogre, relying on the fact that he had enough HP to force the enemy to jump into the ravine. There was nothing subtle or manipulative about this. But this time, there are no magic spells that can wear off (maybe Thog's Rage, if he's raging), or pits to fall into, so Roy can't use his "I can take enough damage to wear the enemy down" tactic anymore.

[King of Nowhere]

i havve an idea of how thog migth be defeated: by bringing in mr scrufffy.
We know thog is fond of puppies, and even if scruffy is an adult cat, he should still be enough to have thog stop figthing and pet him.
What? Don'0t understimate the power of cute fuzzyness

[CaptainIreland]

please, move this discusion to private messages, rather than the main topic.

Thanks for the suggestion, but no.

[Swordpriest]

Well, I would argue that Roy's use of the cliff to dispose of the half-ogre was fairly clever, so it didn't rely solely on high hit points, though that was a major part of it, too.

However, he's going to have a hard time here because he doesn't have a lot of resources beyond his basic fighting ability. Which may or may not be enough to win the fight.

[ThePhantasm]

Well, I would argue that Roy's use of the cliff to dispose of the half-ogre was fairly clever, so it didn't rely solely on high hit points, though that was a major part of it, too.

However, he's going to have a hard time here because he doesn't have a lot of resources beyond his basic fighting ability. Which may or may not be enough to win the fight.

Thog is also more easily outwitted than the Ogre and Sabine.

Thog is a powerful weapon, but he isn't interested in tactics like Roy is. roy can use strategy to his advantage. Were Thog controlled by a player who made smart decisions, things might be different, but this isn't D&D. Thog has no player, Thog is Thog. We've seen Roy use strategies before that, yes, relied on his HP count to win him the fight, but these strategies show that he doesn't straightforwardly hack and slash his way through fights. He is no doubt more than aware that his HP total won't save him here, and I think he'll be able to come up with some sort of plan.

[Snails]

notice how Roy isn't really wearing any rags anymore, just some shoulder pads, a (tight) loincloth and metal bracelets. There's not really much space to hide a Belt of Giant Strength under these now is there?

You have a point there. But it is rather difficult to judge how much stuff a stick figure is carrying, especially if he might be attempting to hide stuff under rags or loincloth.


In a "fair fight" he'd stand a chance. In a fair fight, not so much.

IIRC, Roy was doing okay in the bar against Enor, without even employing his heavily magical sword. That is the hard data with have, FWIW.

[ArcaneSaint]

In a "fair fight" he'd stand a chance. In a fair fight, not so much


You have a point there. But it is rather difficult to judge how much stuff a stick figure is carrying, especially if he might be attempting to hide stuff under rags or loincloth.
Agreed.


IIRC, Roy was doing okay in the bar against Enor, without even employing his heavily magical sword. That is the hard data with have, FWIW.
That was a "fair fight", ie: he had magical items that increased his ability scores.


i havve an idea of how thog migth be defeated: by bringing in mr scrufffy.
We know thog is fond of puppies, and even if scruffy is an adult cat, he should still be enough to have thog stop figthing and pet him.
What? Don'0t understimate the power of cute fuzzyness
You do realize that dog-loving people and cat-loving people are NOT the same thing? It's not because Thog loves dogs he'll stop when faced with a cat. In fact, as far as we know he may get even more angry when faced with a cat. Also, Mr Scruffy was last seen here, in the second panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html), when V was tasked to watch over him. Now that V is in a fight, Mr. Scruffy will most likely try to return to Belkar. Seeing as how Mr. Scruffy is the only living being Belkar cares about, he surely won't throw his cat at a (raging) Barbarian.

[King of Nowhere]

it depends, some people love both, some people prefer one of the two but also love the other (i love cats, but i like dogs too). Thog yiearns for puppies, so it makes me think he likes fuzzy pets no matter the race.
Of course this is just a personal opinion, not supported by anything, but it is possible that thog would stop to pet mr scruffy.

Not that i think it likely, of course.

[silversaraph]

Belkar hides his ring of jumping +20 in a place "reasonable certain wouldn't be searched", and it still works. I can see a belt working hidden in some shoulder pads.

[BlackestOfMages]

ummmm, Hayley was there for like three minutes tops. and she didn't bring anything with her.

also, the guards would have dressed them in those shoulderpads - so they'd probably have noticed if roy had a belt tucked in there.

lastly, if the belt is there anywhere (which I highly doubt) wouldn't it make mores sense to be the straps for the shoulderpads rather than hidden inside.

Belkar's ring: You can wear a ring on your winkie if you want considering, so it would be an acceptable place to wear such a magic item (and you know optimizers everywhere are kicking themselves for missing out on another magic item...). also, that was done for sake of joke, this'd be a blatant dues ex machina to pull it out of nowhere now just so Roy can win.

[Kish]

The implication about Belkar's ring is that he stored it in a place that...

1) Roy would probably not be willing to store anything.
2) Roy would not be able to store an entire belt, OUCH.

[harmsc12]

He can still wrap it twice around the very top of the leg if he wants to keep it hidden.

[Gift Jeraff]

Roy does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html) say "all these custom moves," but I think using the other moves to win would seem like an asspull. While that isn't something that's completely avoided in OOTS (Elan's philter potion of glibness), it'd feel cheap using it to win against a character as prominent as Thog (as opposed to a bunch of no-name mooks).

Using one of those moves in conjunction with a good strategy would be satisfying, but the move itself being the key to victory would probably get cries of deus ex machina.