Not using LA or RHD! What's good for an Incarnate? [Resolved]

[KillianHawkeye]

So my group might have an Evil game starting in a month or two and I finally want to try the Incarnate from MoI. Probably going into Necrocarnate.

The DM is giving us "almost anything" starting at level 1 with no Level Adjustments or Racial Hit Dice, just taking the ability score mods and racial features and whatever class. Only definite restriction is no Outsiders or Elementals, and nothing totally absurd (so I can't be the Tarrasque). One guy is going to be a troll fighter, for example.

Anyway, at first I was thinking of a lycanthrope, but I wanna know what else might be good for an Incarnate. I'd like to avoid getting too crazy with templates and races, so I'm probably going to limit myself to just a monstrous race OR a cool template. I'd also prefer to avoid being undead.

So... comments! Suggestions! Have at it, yon Playgrounders! :smallsmile:

[tyckspoon]

The only things that are especially good for Incarnum itself are increased Essentia and increased Essentia capacity, and I don't believe either of those are available in a template or monstrous option. So.. decide what you want to use your Incarnum abilities to be good at (melee, skill-monkeying, pseudo-casting with the more exotic bind abilities, etc) and we can find you some relevant options.

[Adrayll]

The DM is giving us "almost anything" starting at level 1 with no Level Adjustments or Racial Hit Dice, just taking the ability score mods and racial features and whatever class.

One guy is going to be a troll fighter, for example.

...:smallconfused:

Trolls have +5 LA, and 6 racial HD. Am i missing something?

[KillianHawkeye]

So.. decide what you want to use your Incarnum abilities to be good at (melee, skill-monkeying, pseudo-casting with the more exotic bind abilities, etc) and we can find you some relevant options.

Well, I'm not exactly sure yet. I want to be well-rounded, I guess. Have some form of ranged attack, be capable of helping in melee, and have good mobility and defenses. I probably want to lean more towards being caster-ish, but I want to be able still beat an adolescent half-orc in a fist fight.

EDIT:

...:smallconfused:

Trolls have +5 LA, and 6 racial HD. Am i missing something?

Yeah, you're missing the part where we are ignoring LA and RHD. Hence the thread. :smallsigh:

EDIT 2:

I suppose I should add that I didn't see any interesting monsters or templates in the Incarnum book itself.

[Moose Man]

with no LA or RHD, Black Ethergaunts are an option. they're in fiend folio pg. 65. {Scrubbed}

[tyckspoon]

Hmm. Well, there is one incarnum-related choice that would actually be really good if you can get it: Totem Giant. It's supposed to be an ECL 17 character, which may be stretching your DM's no-adjustment limits.. but if you can do it, you get: Rage as a 1st level Barbarian (I think- it's a reaaaally sloppy monster entry), 3 extra essentia, and the most nifty part: racial meldshaping for the totem chakra and associated bind. Which means you can pick the most awesome Totemist melds and bind effects as well as your normal Incarnate progression. Oh, and you're a giant, so Large size and really good physical stat modifiers, paired with decent mentals for this particular one.

[The Glyphstone]

Black Ethergaunts, indeed.:smallwink:

[KillianHawkeye]

with no LA or RHD, Black Ethergaunts are an option. they're in fiend folio pg. 65. {Scrubbed}

I think it might be extraplanar creatures in general that we're supposed to avoid. Not sure. I don't think I'd want something quite that crazy regardless.


Hmm. Well, there is one incarnum-related choice that would actually be really good if you can get it: Totem Giant. It's supposed to be an ECL 17 character, which may be stretching your DM's no-adjustment limits.. but if you can do it, you get: Rage as a 1st level Barbarian (I think- it's a reaaaally sloppy monster entry), 3 extra essentia, and the most nifty part: racial meldshaping for the totem chakra and associated bind. Which means you can pick the most awesome Totemist melds and bind effects as well as your normal Incarnate progression. Oh, and you're a giant, so Large size and really good physical stat modifiers, paired with decent mentals for this particular one.

Interesting. It certainly is big and strong. I dunno, though. I think I'd like something that could at least disguise itself as a normal person. Besides, we're already going to have a troll. Just the more I think about it the more I want to stay predominantly Medium-sized.



Let's assume from now on that I don't want to blatantly take the utmost advantage of my DM's leniency here. I just want something cool and/or useful, and possibly evil, that I wouldn't necessarily be able to take in a normal game.

Sorry if I'm being kinda vague. I haven't had much sleep this weekend. :smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

Howbout Doppleganger? It's not as powerful as a Troll, but it'll let you shapeshift into other humanoid forms, and it has built-in qualification for Chameleon later on - an Incarnate/Chameleon is one of the most versatile builds you can possibly make, exceeded only if you gestalt Binder and/or Factotum opposite it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Lycanthrope for sure, combining a Forest Troll (MM3) with a Legendary Bear or Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/legendaryAnimal.htm) (MM2). Put a 16 into Con and you've got a Con score of 40. Your Str and Dex should be equally amazing, and you'll have potent melee special attacks via your animal form. Maybe get Warshaper for three or four levels to get even more bonuses when not in your troll-form.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'd say just play a mindflayer, going straight for soul manifestor!:smallamused:

[Wings of Peace]

I'd say just play a mindflayer, going straight for soul manifestor!:smallamused:

In that case he should either roll out a Sharn or a Phaeriim. Because modesty is overrated. :smallcool:

[TroubleBrewing]

In that case he should either roll out a Sharn or a Phaeriim. Because modesty is overrated. :smallcool:

I'm with this guy. Rock out as a Human. Show them why we're the dominant species. :smallamused:

[KillianHawkeye]

In that case he should either roll out a Sharn or a Phaeriim. Because modesty is overrated. :smallcool:

What are those?

[mootoall]

Hmm, is there a listed LA for a Choker? If so, I'd choose that. I mean, extra standard actions are especially sexy when your powers never run out.

[Eldan]

How 'bout some fey? They aren't really extraplanar and look mostly humanoid. Your DM would probably kill you for suggesting Hoary Hunter (CR 25) or Le Shay (CR 28), but the Oread (fiend Folio), Grey Jester (Heroes of Horror) or Verdant Prince (MM4) are all humanoid, as are dryads and nymphs. Most fey feature nice stat adjustments across the board and spell-likes that are always useful. Nice if you want to go face more than beatstick.

[Cog]

What are those?
They both get casting according to their HD. Not just their racial HD - all their HD.

Hmm, is there a listed LA for a Choker? If so, I'd choose that. I mean, extra standard actions are especially sexy when your powers never run out.
Listed LA would be irrelevant, as per the campaign rules, so it doesn't matter that it's LA:-.
_ _ _

How about something like an Aranea? You can get a little racial casting without going the full Black Ethergaunt route, and use that to enter Soulcaster (or whatever the theurge PrC is).

[KillianHawkeye]

They both get casting according to their HD. Not just their racial HD - all their HD.

Yeah, but what are they? Or at least what book are they in?


How about something like an Aranea? You can get a little racial casting without going the full Black Ethergaunt route, and use that to enter Soulcaster (or whatever the theurge PrC is).

Well, I'm pretty set on doing Incarnate 7/Necrocarnate X. Also, since I've never used Incarnum before, I don't want to add in spellcasting to further confuse me.



Fey has some possibilities. I'm not too keen on dopplegangers, but maybe the aranea is an option. I'm not that familiar with it. (EDIT: Gray Jester seems pretty sweet. That's going on the list.)

Definitely nothing epic. I'm even leery of something like a mind flayer or vampire. Despite my DM's encouragement, I think I'd feel bad about it or something.

[Cog]

Yeah, but what are they? Or at least what book are they in?
List of monsters. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters)

[BluesEclipse]

Talk your DM into letting you play an Incarnum Dragon.

[Feytalist]

Yeah, but what are they? Or at least what book are they in?

Both are out of the Forgotten Realms setting. I think they both make an appearance in Monsters of Faerun, unless I'm mistaken. I lost my copy in a fire a few years ago :sniff:

[zagan]

Talk your DM into letting you play an Incarnum Dragon.

I'll second the incarnum dragon.

If you prefer something more humanoid looking the soulfused construct template might cool. It grant yot bonus essentia (1+1 per 6hd) and an ability to invest it to gain bonus on saving throw.
You apply the template to a not too crazy construct and the result might be interesting. Something like a Nimblewright (MM2 p162) or Flesh golem to go with your necrocarnate theme.

[Veyr]

Well, I'm pretty set on doing Incarnate 7/Necrocarnate X. Also, since I've never used Incarnum before, I don't want to add in spellcasting to further confuse me.
I would... recommend against this. Necrocarnate is a very poorly designed PrC. It's one of those things that's really underpowered, unless you cheese it out and then it's overpowered. Basically, meldshapers depend on Essentia, and Necrocarnate really stunts your Essentia progression. Instead, you have to kill things to get Essentia. If you try to do this by just taking the Essentia from whatever you harvest in a day, your Essentia will be very low for basically the whole day — it's not good.

Alternatively, you start your day by doing something like slaughtering farm animals, or infamously, pouring boiling water down an anthill. Absolutely no threat, limitless Essentia. This is not balanced.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I would... recommend against this. Necrocarnate is a very poorly designed PrC. It's one of those things that's really underpowered, unless you cheese it out and then it's overpowered. Basically, meldshapers depend on Essentia, and Necrocarnate really stunts your Essentia progression. Instead, you have to kill things to get Essentia. If you try to do this by just taking the Essentia from whatever you harvest in a day, your Essentia will be very low for basically the whole day — it's not good.

Alternatively, you start your day by doing something like slaughtering farm animals, or infamously, pouring boiling water down an anthill. Absolutely no threat, limitless Essentia. This is not balanced.

How would it work dipping for the Necrocarnate for the Juju Zombie? I don't have MoI on hand; but that wouldn't stunt your Essentia progression too bad right?

[*.*.*.*]

Be an elder Phaerimm(lost empires of faerun) and rock house. No matter what you do, you're a sorc on crack.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Forest Troll Were-Legendary Tiger, no LA or RHD version:

Str +6, Dex +6, Con +10, Wis +2, Cha -4
Medium Giant (Shapechanger)
30 ft. land speed, 20 ft. climb speed
Natural attacks: 2 claws (1d4 + Str plus poison), bite secondary (1d4 + 1/2 Str)
Poison: Fort DC (10 + 1/2 HD + Con modifier) initial and secondary 1d6 Con damage. Forest trolls may also coat their manufactured weapons with this poison.
Low-light vision
Darkvision 90 ft.
Scent
Fast Healing 5
DR 10/Silver
+7 Natural Armor
Curse of Lycanthropy
Lycanthropic Empathy
Bonus feat: Iron Will
Skills: +8 racial bonus on Climb checks, may always choose to take ten on climb checks
Skills: +8 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks; in areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus increases to +16
Alternate Form (see below)
Automatic Languages: Giant


Alternate Forms:
Hybrid form changes to base statistics

Str +22, Dex +8, Con +14, do not modify Hit Points.
Size increases to Large
Natural armor bonus changes to +12
Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d6 + Str plus poison), bite secondary (1d8 + 1/2 Str)


Animal form changes to base statistics

Str +22, Dex +8, Con +14, do not modify Hit Points.
Size increases to Large
50 ft. land speed, loses the climb speed
Natural armor bonus changes to +12
Natural Weapons: 2 claws (2d6 + Str plus poison), bite secondary (2d8 + 1/2 Str)
Pounce
Improved Grab (bite)
Rake: 2 rakes at claw attack bonus (2d6 + 1/2 Str)

[*.*.*.*]

I'd prefer a Were-Bloodtitan War Troll(both from MM III). You'd be looking at a strength bonus of about 50 or so. No to mention awesome regeneration and a save-or-suck melee attack based off strength(if memory serves). You would also gain a giant con score to boost you're incarnum abilities.

[Glimbur]

How would it work dipping for the Necrocarnate for the Juju Zombie? I don't have MoI on hand; but that wouldn't stunt your Essentia progression too bad right?

You can get an Incarnum Zombie just by binding the Necrocarnum Circlet to your Crown chakra (or maybe it's brow). You would have to dip in 6 levels to get any bonus to zombie making and the capstone is two zombies at once.

As to what race to be... the question is how powerful you want to be. You could be ok as a troll, honestly. The book says that Incarnates want Wis but you can get by fine without it. What you want is Con and stat boosts to help with your party role: if you want to melee you want Str and Dex, for skill monkey you want Int, etc.

[ffone]

Great wyrm gold dragon.

They can assume humanoid appearance all day.

[HalfDragonCube]

How about Nymph? Blind people. SLAs. The works.

[Draz74]

If you want something more powerful than a standard race, but really not that exciting mechanically -- but "different" and sort of cool flavor-wise for a necromancer type -- you could try a Gargoyle (MM1).


Great wyrm gold dragon.

They can assume humanoid appearance all day.


How about Nymph? Blind people. SLAs. The works.

Both of these contradict the OP's desire to not have spellcasting.

[JaronK]

Black Ethergaunt!

Okay, enough of that though. I say be one of the really fast dragons, like a Mercury Dragon, just because it's a fun thing to play as. Either that, or hulk out as a Feral Half Red Dragon Half Minotaur Mineral Warrior Goliath. Or maybe go in the opposite direction, playing something really small like a Shadow Dark Petal.

JaronK

[KillianHawkeye]

I just checked with my DM and he said no Dragons. :smallfrown:

Also, please people. I'm trying to limit myself to either a crazy race or a cool template. I don't want to be that obnoxious and I'm not overcompensating for anything. So please no more "troll were-tiger template2 template3" type suggetions, okay? In fact, no more trolls or giants at all, since somebody else is already going to be one and I don't want to copy. Thank you.

Gargoyle is another interesting suggestion. That's going on the list.




I would... recommend against this. Necrocarnate is a very poorly designed PrC. It's one of those things that's really underpowered, unless you cheese it out and then it's overpowered. Basically, meldshapers depend on Essentia, and Necrocarnate really stunts your Essentia progression. Instead, you have to kill things to get Essentia. If you try to do this by just taking the Essentia from whatever you harvest in a day, your Essentia will be very low for basically the whole day — it's not good.

Alternatively, you start your day by doing something like slaughtering farm animals, or infamously, pouring boiling water down an anthill. Absolutely no threat, limitless Essentia. This is not balanced.

Alternatively, you get more powerful as the day goes on. It's not like I'll be by myself and unable to kill things. I can steal souls from whatever the troll kills and then rock out on the last encounters of the day. We're playing Evil, so I expect we'll kill a lot of things. (The DM hinted that our first mission was going to be destroying or taking over an entire hamlet.) Plus I expect to mostly take Incarnum feats which will add to my essentia, so that will help some.

Anyway, this is my one chance to be evil incarnate (:smallamused:) and I really like the "steal souls for power" bit. Evil campaigns don't come up very often (or at all) in my group, so I may as well be as Evil as I can be, right?

[Veyr]

Alternatively, you get more powerful as the day goes on. It's not like I'll be by myself and unable to kill things. I can steal souls from whatever the troll kills and then rock out on the last encounters of the day. We're playing Evil, so I expect we'll kill a lot of things. (The DM hinted that our first mission was going to be destroying or taking over an entire hamlet.)
Without doing something like killing innocent bystanders who are no threat to you (which an evil character can do but there is a problem here in that the "boiling water down an anthill" trick is only a difference of degree, not type), you will still end the day with fewer Essentia than you would have otherwise.


Plus I expect to mostly take Incarnum feats which will add to my essentia, so that will help some.
Pretty much all Meldshapers do that. Essentia's that important (and that scarce).


Anyway, this is my one chance to be evil incarnate (:smallamused:) and I really like the "steal souls for power" bit. Evil campaigns don't come up very often (or at all) in my group, so I may as well be as Evil as I can be, right?
An Evil Incarnate would be better than an Evil Incarnate/Necrocarnate, IMO, is what I'm saying.


I mean, I agree with you that Necrocarnate is really cool. But it is quite badly designed, and especially as a new player to Incarnum, I worry that it will really be very annoying to play as without resorting to "cheese" (and then it will be hard not to overpower yourself).

Look, it was just a recommendation. I think the Necrocarnate has a lot of problems, and wanted to warn you about it. That's all.

[KillianHawkeye]

Look, it was just a recommendation. I think the Necrocarnate has a lot of problems, and wanted to warn you about it. That's all.

Okay, I'll keep it in mind while I'm working up to level 7 and make my final descision then. Thanks for your input.

[Seerow]

Also, please people. I'm trying to limit myself to either a crazy race or a cool template. I don't want to be that obnoxious and I'm not overcompensating for anything. So please no more "troll were-tiger template2 template3" type suggetions, okay? In fact, no more trolls or giants at all, since somebody else is already going to be one and I don't want to copy. Thank you.


Honestly? It would be way easier if you had more clearly defined limits on what was acceptable without us having to draw it out of you. Honestly reading this thread looks like a game of 20 questions trying to guess what creature you are currently thinking of.

You say you don't want casting, but you don't want to be large. You want to be strong, but not too strong, with no indication of where that cutoff is. You want something cool and unique but not THAT cool and unique, and so on.

[TroubleBrewing]

Seriously. Human. Rock their faces off.

[MeeposFire]

Seriously. Human. Rock their faces off.

Karsite. Human with no spellcasting or LA? Karsite for the win.

[ffone]

Honestly? It would be way easier if you had more clearly defined limits on what was acceptable without us having to draw it out of you. Honestly reading this thread looks like a game of 20 questions trying to guess what creature you are currently thinking of.

You say you don't want casting, but you don't want to be large. You want to be strong, but not too strong, with no indication of where that cutoff is. You want something cool and unique but not THAT cool and unique, and so on.

Agreed. Your DM's free-LA / no RHD rule is completely capricious and boils down to 'you can be as much powerful as I like you'. Might as well sort the monster list by CR or by ECL and ask your way down.

And if you wanted to be humanoid shaped but Outsider type is banned and giant type is 'taken '....well that's most powerful bipeds right there. Most other types are quadeaped. Monstrous humanoid?

And it goes without saying that party balance will be terrible.

[faceroll]

Haha, playgrounders.

"I can't be anything ridiculous, like the Tarrasque."
"Oh, that's fine, there are things out there WAAAAY more ridiculous than the Tarrasque; you should play those."

Redcap (MMIII) get more powerful when they kill stuff. They are small, evil, fey creatures. Haunters in the Dark are psionic ghost monsters that eat souls, from XPH.

I would be tempted to play a templated ooze (evil flying black pudding? awesome!) or an undead that would otherwise be off limits. Undead especially, if you are going necrocarnate.


with no LA or RHD, Black Ethergaunts are an option. they're in fiend folio pg. 65. {Scrubbed}

I played a red etherguant with a gambling problem, once. Anyway, I think they're outsiders, and those are expressly forbidden.


I'm with this guy. Rock out as a Human. Show them why we're the dominant species. :smallamused:

Wut.
I don't get it.
Neither Sharn not Phaerimm are even REMOTELY human.

[KillianHawkeye]

Honestly? It would be way easier if you had more clearly defined limits on what was acceptable without us having to draw it out of you. Honestly reading this thread looks like a game of 20 questions trying to guess what creature you are currently thinking of.

You say you don't want casting, but you don't want to be large. You want to be strong, but not too strong, with no indication of where that cutoff is. You want something cool and unique but not THAT cool and unique, and so on.

I realize that this thread wasn't very organized or well thought-out.

However, when I said that I was thinking of maybe being a were-wolf and another guy is going to be a troll, I didn't expect people to stray so far from the were-wolf to troll range. Instead, people jumped straight to black ethergaunt and war troll were-legendary tiger. :smallsigh:

Anyway, the point of this thread was to find creatures or templates that are cool and/or flavorful, not omg POWERFUL. I'm looking for things I haven't thought of. If I KNEW what I wanted, I wouldn't need this thread!



I would like to thank everyone who has contributed thus far. You've been very helpful and given me some good ideas. Right now I am leaning towards the Gray Jester.

If anyone would like to continue making suggestions (within the bounds I have described), please do. I appreciate everyone's help and input.

[*.*.*.*]

You could always play a vampire, that's cool, flavor appropriate, and powerful.

Playing a Gray Elf Vampire would be cool, take Faeri mysteries initiate(replace CON to INT for HP) and undead meldshaper. They're both 1st level feats only though, so you have to take a flaw. When you hit level 10, take the vampire lord template ( http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a ) and feel epic

[ffone]

I realize that this thread wasn't very organized or well thought-out.

However, when I said that I was thinking of maybe being a were-wolf and another guy is going to be a troll, I didn't expect people to stray so far from the were-wolf to troll range. Instead, people jumped straight to black ethergaunt and war troll were-legendary tiger. :smallsigh:

Anyway, the point of this thread was to find creatures or templates that are cool and/or flavorful, not omg POWERFUL. I'm looking for things I haven't thought of. If I KNEW what I wanted, I wouldn't need this thread!



I would like to thank everyone who has contributed thus far. You've been very helpful and given me some good ideas. Right now I am leaning towards the Gray Jester.

If anyone would like to continue making suggestions (within the bounds I have described), please do. I appreciate everyone's help and input.

But 'cool/flavorful' and 'powerful' are not mutually exclusive ('Stormwind Fallacy'). The problem is not that we don't know that you aren't trying to be 'omg powerful'..,...it's that we have no idea where along the spectrum is OK. Basically your DM is being very unwise and needs to set better parameters.

For example, I recommended a great wyrm gold dragon, which was tongue in cheek...but if that was too powerful, well, how about wyrm? Ancient? Mature adult? Juveline? Silver instead of gold? I know you said no spellcasting, but you could always just ignore the spellcasting!

(I know you said no dragons, but with any type there's a spectrum.)

Also IMO you shouldn't avoid giants just b/c someone else is playing one. If you're trying to play a monster that can wield weapons and armor like a human, and isn't an Outsider, but is powerful...that probably means Giant or Monstrous Humanoid or Fey.

[Retech]

They have some pretty awesome intelligent undead. I think the wraith can trap souls and feed off their power, using it to cast their SLA in spam.

[*.*.*.*]

They have some pretty awesome intelligent undead. I think the wraith can trap souls and feed off their power, using it to cast their SLA in spam.

I believe you're thinking of a devourer

[Cog]

My understanding was that actually being an undead was pretty lousy for Incarnum classes. IIRC, you have to take a feat to be able to 'shape at all, and you don't qualify for most of the feats in the book as they need a Con score.

[*.*.*.*]

My understanding was that actually being an undead was pretty lousy for Incarnum classes. IIRC, you have to take a feat to be able to 'shape at all, and you don't qualify for most of the feats in the book as they need a Con score.

You are correct good sir! I would personally ask if those feats could be CHA dependent once you took undead meldshaper

[Vortling]

I haven't seen it suggested yet the Half-Fiend template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) is flavorfully evil and gets decent boosts if you don't have to pay for the LA.

Included are a fly speed, stat boosts, resistances, and a few spell-like abilities. As a bonus it goes on top of any race so mix and match with phb or even the incarnum races to get what you want.

After all, what's more classically soul stealing than the fiends? :smallamused:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Redcap (MMIII) get more powerful when they kill stuff. They are small, evil, fey creatures. Haunters in the Dark are psionic ghost monsters that eat souls, from XPH.

The problem there is they gain racial HD by doing so, which doesn't do anything here. If I'm not mistaken the ability is worded in such a way that you need to gain those racial HD to gain anything else, too.:smallyuk:


I played a red etherguant with a gambling problem, once. Anyway, I think they're outsiders, and those are expressly forbidden.

Actually, they're bipedal aberrations native to I want to say either the Ethereal or Shadow plane.


Wut.
I don't get it.
Neither Sharn not Phaerimm are even REMOTELY human.

Magic can solve that, though:smalltongue:

Also, a mind flayer is still a solid choice. Use your natural psionic powers to buff yourself and smash face.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ulitharid, from Lords of Madness. A large size extra-scary mind flayer with all the typical illithid abilities, only better.

Tauric Creature (MM2 and SS) of a Human + Lammasu. Large size, flight, feline attacks (2 claws, pounce, 2 rakes), Magic Circle against Evil (Su), 7th level Cleric spellcasting with two domains built-in so if you get one level of Cleric you get two more domains, shaped appropriately to make use of Spirited Charge while not mounted thus capable of combining Leap Attack with it.

Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Human.

[Feytalist]

I haven't seen it suggested yet the Half-Fiend template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) is flavorfully evil and gets decent boosts if you don't have to pay for the LA.

Included are a fly speed, stat boosts, resistances, and a few spell-like abilities. As a bonus it goes on top of any race so mix and match with phb or even the incarnum races to get what you want.

After all, what's more classically soul stealing than the fiends? :smallamused:

Actually half-fiend isn't a bad idea. Seconded.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I haven't seen it suggested yet the Half-Fiend template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) is flavorfully evil and gets decent boosts if you don't have to pay for the LA.

Included are a fly speed, stat boosts, resistances, and a few spell-like abilities. As a bonus it goes on top of any race so mix and match with phb or even the incarnum races to get what you want.

After all, what's more classically soul stealing than the fiends? :smallamused:

Wait wait wait, use this Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) instead.

[dextercorvia]

How about Warforged Charger? You get large size, construct traits, two slams, Adamantine Body, Powerful Charge, and +10 to Str and Con. It lends itself more towards Totemist than Incarnate, but you can make it work.

[BluesEclipse]

Fun idea: Play a Soulspark(from the Incarnum book). You're essentially playing as a soulmeld that shapes its own soulmelds, at that point.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Fun idea: Play a Soulspark(from the Incarnum book). You're essentially playing as a soulmeld that shapes its own soulmelds, at that point.

Yo dawg, I herd you liked soulmelds, so I put a soulmeld on your soulmeld so you can meld while you meld! Truly this is the greatest of memes.

[HalfDragonCube]

Both of these contradict the OP's desire to not have spellcasting.

You could just decide not to use the SLAs... The blinding as a free action is funny.

[faceroll]

Yo dawg, I herd you liked soulmelds, so I put a soulmeld on your soulmeld so you can meld while you meld! Truly this is the greatest of memes.

We need to go deeper.

[Draz74]

You could just decide not to use the SLAs...

Who said anything about SLAs? Both of those monsters have bona fide spellcasting.

And yeah, you could just ignore it. But I don't think that's what the OP wants.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Rakshasa (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rakshasa.htm)

Why?


Spells: A rakshasa character casts spells as a 7th-level sorcerer. If the character takes additional levels of sorcerer, these levels stack with the rakshasa’s base spellcasting ability for spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level. A rakshasa character likewise uses the sum of its racial spellcasting levels and class levels to determine the abilities of its familiar.

Basically, you get free spells, on top of sweet stat boosts.

[*.*.*.*]

spells

He doesn't want any. I still say talk to your DM into making the Incarnum feats CHA dependent.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He doesn't want any. I still say talk to your DM into making the Incarnum feats CHA dependent.

I've yet to see where he says 'I don't want spells'. Unlike the phaerim, this isn't 'ZOMG spells', it's '3rd level spells, so you've got some decent buffing ability'. And it doesn't scale, unlike the Phaerim idea.

Plus, you're a felinoid humanoid with their wrists rotated 180'. What's not to like about that?

Minotaur is always fun to play with. Who can say no to a gore attack?

[Cog]

I've yet to see where he says 'I don't want spells'.
Then I suppose you missed:


Also, since I've never used Incarnum before, I don't want to add in spellcasting to further confuse me.

[KillianHawkeye]

While Rakshasas are cool and totally sweet, I'd like to avoid anything that comes with racial spellcasting for two reasons:

1) I want to get the feel of incarnum without also having spells to distract me, and

2) I'm not sure how my DM would rule it but I personally don't feel that those creatures should retain the high-level spellcasting when they're reduced to 1st level characters and I don't want to figure out how it should advance if we don't have to. The most logical method would be to advance it according to character level, but that is like getting a whole second class for free, and I'm trying to avoid anything that seems too cheatsy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

While Rakshasas are cool and totally sweet, I'd like to avoid anything that comes with racial spellcasting for two reasons:

1) I want to get the feel of incarnum without also having spells to distract me, and

2) I'm not sure how my DM would rule it but I personally don't feel that those creatures should retain the high-level spellcasting when they're reduced to 1st level characters and I don't want to figure out how it should advance if we don't have to. The most logical method would be to advance it according to character level, but that is like getting a whole second class for free, and I'm trying to avoid anything that seems too cheatsy.

Then, honestly, your best races are the ones found in MoI. Probably Azurian, since you get a bonus feat and a bonus essentia.

Nothing is going to be better for you than bonus essentia. No, not even that.

So what you want, is an Azurian with a nifty looking template stacked on top.

The Dark template has free Hide in Plain Sight, it's worth a looksie.

[KillianHawkeye]

One extra point of essentia? I know I'm a newbie to incarnum, but it doesn't sound very impressive....

I guess it's better than a straight Human, but that's about all.

[Divide by Zero]

Essentia are like caster levels. Every one counts.

[Cog]

Why not try one of the monsters out of MoI itself? There's dragons there that get shaping instead of spellcasting, the totem giants do likewise, or there's soulfused construct on top of your favorite flavor of golem for a little essentia and the fun of the living construct subtype.

[Luckmann]

I've personally always liked the idea of the Fey'ri.
Half-Dragon Fey'ri, maybe?

Has some spell-like abilities if I remember correctly, though, so you might not like it. No outright spellcasting.

Or, hell, a Tanarukk Half-Fiend. ECL +7 normally. A bat-winged, demonic half-orc!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why not try one of the monsters out of MoI itself? There's dragons there that get shaping instead of spellcasting, the totem giants do likewise, or there's soulfused construct on top of your favorite flavor of golem for a little essentia and the fun of the living construct subtype.

Actually, Soulfused Construct + Warforged is pretty darn sweet. Particularly if you go into the PrC that nets you all the nifty immunities.

[Dusk Eclipse]

He could use the Rakshasa and avoid the spellcasting and use the spell slots to fuel Arcane strike and add a bit of melee damage.

[Lhurgyof]

Howbout Doppleganger? It's not as powerful as a Troll, but it'll let you shapeshift into other humanoid forms, and it has built-in qualification for Chameleon later on - an Incarnate/Chameleon is one of the most versatile builds you can possibly make, exceeded only if you gestalt Binder and/or Factotum opposite it.

Ethereal Doppleganger?

[BluesEclipse]

Actually, Soulfused Construct + Warforged is pretty darn sweet. Particularly if you go into the PrC that nets you all the nifty immunities.

Aside from the fact that Soulfused Construct can't be applied to something with the Living Construct subtype, anyway.

[Vulaas]

Depending on your tolerance for cheese:

Absurdly high: Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Azurian.

High: If your usual flavors of Giant are not to your liking, maybe try a Primordial one of some variety. If you're going necrocarnate anyway, you could even do a Necropolitin (Libris Mortis) Primordial (Can't recall...Some ebberon book) <Giant> for some nice 'master of undeath from ages past' flavoring.

Medium: Spellwarped (MM3) Azurian. Gives you a nice boost to constitution, SR that empowers you, and is all kinds of fun.

Low: Be a badass normal. We don't need templates to show people how awesome we can be!

[HalfDragonCube]

Depending on your tolerance for cheese:

Absurdly high: Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Azurian.

High: If your usual flavors of Giant are not to your liking, maybe try a Primordial one of some variety. If you're going necrocarnate anyway, you could even do a Necropolitin (Libris Mortis) Primordial (Can't recall...Some ebberon book) <Giant> for some nice 'master of undeath from ages past' flavoring.

Medium: Spellwarped (MM3) Azurian. Gives you a nice boost to constitution, SR that empowers you, and is all kinds of fun.

Low: Be a badass normal. We don't need templates to show people how awesome we can be!

Paragon template: See that midge?

[KillianHawkeye]

Okay, just heard back from my DM. Apparently now he's saying that we're going to be getting the equivalent of our race's savage progression (minus the HD) in parallel with our class features as we level up, so we won't be starting with our full racial features. On the plus side, it should be somewhat more balanced. On the minus side, we may have to figure out some savage progressions for races and templates that don't already have one.

Anyway, I just wanted to thank everyone for their suggestions, especially Eldan. I've decided to use his suggestion of the Gray Jester and be all creepy and evil. Plus my DM says clowns scare the crap out of him, so bonus.

[HalfDragonCube]

Okay, just heard back from my DM. Apparently now he's saying that we're going to be getting the equivalent of our race's savage progression (minus the HD) in parallel with our class features as we level up, so we won't be starting with our full racial features. On the plus side, it should be somewhat more balanced. On the minus side, we may have to figure out some savage progressions for races and templates that don't already have one.

Anyway, I just wanted to thank everyone for their suggestions, especially Eldan. I've decided to use his suggestion of the Gray Jester and be all creepy and evil. Plus my DM says clowns scare the crap out of him, so bonus.

Mmm... Free BAB, saves and creepyness. :smalltongue:

[KillianHawkeye]

Mmm... Free BAB, saves and creepyness. :smalltongue:

Er, no. BAB and Saves will be according to our class only (since those are a factor of HD, and we are not getting the monster HD).

[HalfDragonCube]

Er, no. BAB and Saves will be according to our class only (since those are a factor of HD, and we are not getting the monster HD).

Mmm... Free creepyness... :smalltongue: