Help Me Design a Villain with Joker Immunity

[Drakevarg]

For my new campaign I decided to do play with an idea: take on of my player's RP characters, file the serial numbers off, and use him as a major villain. The character in question is primarily characterized by his melodramatic tendencies, pure, unrepentant evil, and having a myriad of ways to just. Not. Die. These methods include self-resurrection, mindraping people into being alternate versions of himself, and magical clones. Sounds fun.

So I sit down and start thinking of how I can pull this off. Lichdom seems like an obvious way to go, but I passed on it because it's too damned cliche. I've already got at least one lich planned for the campaign, so I didn't want to resort to another.

Other methods I thought of include magic jar, clone, programmed amnesia, and good old fashion cultists masquerading as their master.

Now it comes to stats. I'm thinking most likely a Sorcerer with a smattering of prestige classes, race optional, and Chaotic Evil. The only requirements for level is that he needs to be capable of 9th level spells (for programmed amnesia). Since he'll inevitably have a small army of weaker clones/mind-slaves/willing minions, I don't need to worry about him being too strong for periodic boss fights. Base stats are:

14
16
16
17
17
18

Resources are limited to the books listed in my signature. Beyond that, go nuts. I'll put together my own version in the meantime and weigh your input as I go.

[The Glyphstone]

If he runs out of other options, there's always being/turning into a Ghost. If he's at least level 15, it's impossible to kill him permanently.

[Drakevarg]

If he runs out of other options, there's always being/turning into a Ghost. If he's at least level 15, it's impossible to kill him permanently.

There's also the possibility that at this point he's just badass enough to fight his way out of whatever afterlife he lands in. :smalltongue:

Either way, don't think I'll go with ghost. Mostly because it's in a similar boat with Lichdom of being too obvious. Basically, I want to have a wide variety of ways to resurrect/fake his death/create multiple versions of him/create multiple copycats of him without resorting to the old standby of undeath.

[NNescio]

Joker Bard? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158)

[Rei_Jin]

What about taking the idea of an Effigy Master a step further, and having him make construct copies of himself that are convinced that they ARE him. Because they're constructs, they're immune to mind effects, so the PCs would have a very hard time telling which one is really him, and which ones are duplicates.

Further to that, to really screw with them, have them kill him really early on, but the duplicates keep coming, from an Effigy who believes that he is the BBEG and must keep creating copies of himself.

The only way to put this BBEG down, is to destroy all the copies of him before another one can be made to continue his plans.

[Drakevarg]

What about taking the idea of an Effigy Master a step further, and having him make construct copies of himself that are convinced that they ARE him. Because they're constructs, they're immune to mind effects, so the PCs would have a very hard time telling which one is really him, and which ones are duplicates.

Further to that, to really screw with them, have them kill him really early on, but the duplicates keep coming, from an Effigy who believes that he is the BBEG and must keep creating copies of himself.

The only way to put this BBEG down, is to destroy all the copies of him before another one can be made to continue his plans.

A neat idea, but I can't think of a way for a character to make effigies that convincing without running on DM Fiat.

[Rei_Jin]

Well, Disguise checks would make it much harder for anyone to tell that they're not human/elven/whatever race you want them to be. And in regards to the intelligence thing, they ARE constructs. That means that there's an elemental spirit inside of them, empowering them.

It wouldn't be a huge step to say that you could make a construct into an intelligent item (they are just magical items that can walk around, after all) and then use a thought bottle to copy the BBEGs personality over.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Base the hero-villain story around the Staff of Seven Parts?

When he dies, he uses the staff's ability to use true resurrection on himself, then makes a clean getaway while the staff's seven parts scatter to the four corners of the earth?

You could make him the leader of a shadowy syndicate which has eyes and ears all over the world, and make it such that the party needs to embark on a quest to find and secure even one of the staff's seven parts long enough to kill him before he re-assembles the staff, allowing him to use its true resurrection effect a second time!

[Drakevarg]

Well, Disguise checks would make it much harder for anyone to tell that they're not human/elven/whatever race you want them to be. And in regards to the intelligence thing, they ARE constructs. That means that there's an elemental spirit inside of them, empowering them.

It wouldn't be a huge step to say that you could make a construct into an intelligent item (they are just magical items that can walk around, after all) and then use a thought bottle to copy the BBEGs personality over.

My own setting fluff nixes the "powered by elemental spirit" fluff, but the Intelligent Item idea sounds legit. Suppose I should roll up a few "Doombots" for him.

[mabriss lethe]

What about a Fiend of Possession?

[Dralnu]

A neat idea, but I can't think of a way for a character to make effigies that convincing without running on DM Fiat.

Aren't you the DM? You're free to use DM Fiat. WOTC even encourages you to make up your own stuff as the DM.

On that note, Warforged are living constructs that are created in a forge. You can adapt that idea by saying your BBEG has an artifact forge of his own making construct clones of himself that truly believe they are him. All done.

[Drakevarg]

Aren't you the DM? You're free to use DM Fiat. WOTC even encourages you to make up your own stuff as the DM.

I can. But there's nothing creative about the abuse of omnipotence.


What about a Fiend of Possession?

Never heard of it. Probably not in my books.

[TroubleBrewing]

Insane Warforged. I've always wanted to try this.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Joker Bard? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158)

Specifically that with Bluff + Glibness + Facinate + Suggestion, he can damn well convince Random_Minion_32 that he is, in point of fact, THE Joker. And the new FakeJoker will believe this to the utmost core of his being.

You now have a disposable minion who will ring true under Zone of Truth and Detect Lies that he is, in fact, the real Joker.

Meanwhile, Changeling that he is, he gets rescued as Helpless_Victim_86 and wanders off to plan a new nefarious plot.

[The-Mage-King]

Never heard of it. Probably not in my books.

It's in the Fiend Folio. One of the three PrCs. Basically lets an evil outsider possess stuff.


Anyway, I remember a template that sounds like what you're looking for. Just... can't place my finger on it. I'm going to be looking for it, and get back to you when I do find it.

[Drakevarg]

Well, keep tossing out ideas; I'm gonna hit the sack on account of a headache. In the meantime, here's what I scribbled out as a prototype:

Mendax Umbraquis
CE Changeling Sorcerer 4/Alienist 10/Effigy Master 5

STR 14
DEX 16
CON 18
INT 18
WIS 18
CHA 20

Fort +11
Ref +10
Will +18

BAB +9/+4
Grapple +11

Skills
Bluff +20 (21 Ranks +5 CHA +2 Racial +2 Persuasive -10 Insane Certainty)
Know (Arcana) +25 (21 Ranks +4 INT)
Know (Planes) +14 (10 Ranks (cc) +4 INT)
Diplomacy +5 (10 Ranks (cc) +5 CHA -10 Insane Certainty)
Craft (Metalworking) +25 (21 Ranks +4 INT)
Spellcraft +25 (21 Ranks +4 INT)
UMD +7 (2 Ranks (cc) +5 CHA)

Feats
Craft Wonderous Item
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Augment Summoning
Planar Familiar (Quasit)
Persuasive
Leadership
Explosive Spell
Energy Substitution (Electricity) (Bonus Feat)
Energy Admixture (Electricity) (Bonus Feat)

-----

I'll probably be back in like, an hour, out of sheer insomnia.

[Malkav]

Cleric of Vecna with the Whispered Secrets (sadly its in RoD) feat for Glibness.
OR
Derro (MM). Look them up they are awesome insane bad guys. Also they are great for Sorc.

When/If they kill him, have him come back as a gravetouched ghoul(LM).

[Fable Wright]

Hm... if you can use psionics straight out of the SRD, there's a power called Mind Seed that literally allows him to turn minions into him, at a reduced level. You could easily homerule an 8th level spell that does the same thing (And given that spells and powers of the same level were intended to be equal, I'd say that it wouldn't be too game-breaking). There's also mind switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitch.htm) (or equivalent 6th level spell) that can give totally random bystanders his body, while a bunch of mind-seeded copies of him in completely different bodies wind up replicating past the point of sanity, leading to armies of the same person plotting against themselves and the PCs. Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) (Or equivalent spell) can give each of those copies a completely different skill set. The result can manifest into a suitably (melo)dramatic Thirty-Xanatos pileup (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThirtyXanatosPileup) at the climax of the campaign, when they somehow get (almost) all of the copies into the same room in conflict with each other. Additionally/alternatively, you could have completely different cults of the same person with entirely different agendas running. If you can figure out psionics from the SRD, then the Thrallherd class could lead to even more madness, as each one copy of a certain level would have a small, disposable cult of minions to follow them, causing even more madness... all in all, if it comes down to not dying, gaining minions, making people you, switching places with people, and generally screwing with people, a Psion(Telepath)/Thrallherd would make a small army of the same person, each one getting about a dozen cultists/mini-copies of him (depending on how you fluff minions), and more and more mindscrew, shenanigans, and copies of himself than you could easily track in 3 dimensions. Alternatively, just give him the key powers as spells known, and you could have relatively the same effect, but without the minion army.

[Drakevarg]

[Awesome, but tragically Psionic, goodness.]

Well I won't be using the SRD, partially out of normal habits and partially because I want to minimize electronic components of this campaign. I'm even writing down all character sheets on actual paper this time!

As for using what I DO have to mimic the same stuff, programmed amnesia will allow him to rewrite anyone who can fail (willingly or otherwise) a DC 24 Will Save (before taking magic items into account) into mini-Mendax's, albiet with the skill set of the original victim. Add to this Doombots, cultists pretending to be Mendax, clone abuse, magic jar shenanigans, and some other stuff I haven't thought of yet, I pretty much can bring some aspect of him back to life whenever I want, in whatever form I want.

[Edit]: Death Throes seems fun. Any of his arcane manifestations of 9th level or higher will explode when killed, smacking anyone within 30 ft. for 9d8 or more damage.

[Malkav]

Derro

Seriously.

[Drakevarg]

Derro seem handy, but those 3 RHD are annoying. Plus death by sunlight is pretty wussy.

[Edit]: Gonna swap Leadership for Mother Cyst and 4 Ranks in Craft (Metalworking) for 2 Ranks in Knowledge (Religion). Villains shouldn't have limitations on how many mooks they get and Craft (Metalworking) is only useful for getting into Effigy Master. Mother Cyst lets me use the necrotic cyst spells, aka Chekov's Spell.

[Edit2]: Forgot simulacrum. Seems pretty obvious. Can a Simulacrum cast simulacrum? If they can, could be funny.

[Malkav]

Derro seem handy, but those 3 RHD are annoying. Plus death by sunlight is pretty wussy.


My wife ran a game with a Derro boss. He would use abandoned mine-shafts (we were in a heavy mining region) and suck entire houses under ground. He enslaved kobold trapmakers and built a ridiculous dungeon. He never went above ground. He killed at least five PC's that campaign.

[Drakevarg]

My wife ran a game with a Derro boss. He would use abandoned mine-shafts (we were in a heavy mining region) and suck entire houses under ground. He enslaved kobold trapmakers and built a ridiculous dungeon. He never went above ground. He killed at least five PC's that campaign.

Sounds fun, but not quite apt for the multiverse-spanning lunacy I have planned for my campaign. That's not to say that one of his mindslaves couldn't be a Derro. I dismiss no option entirely from my plans, so long as they can be done with the material I have on hand.

On that note, my plan for the first arc of the campaign:

A dominated 6th level Sorcerer is using suggestion to make the villagers murder each other. At the same time, he's charmed the leader of a nearby tribe of Kobolds, who are preparing to raid the town.

If they're bright at all they'll realize that the Sorcerer isn't the mastermind, leaving them with the hook for the next chapter. At the same time, they'll probably trip over a few other hooks, since this is intended to be an intentionally schizo campaign with lots and lots of unrelated plots running all over the place, fading into the background and popping up again later.

[Fable Wright]

[Edit]: Gonna swap Leadership for Mother Cyst and 4 Ranks in Craft (Metalworking) for 2 Ranks in Knowledge (Religion). Villains shouldn't have limitations on how many mooks they get and Craft (Metalworking) is only useful for getting into Effigy Master. Mother Cyst lets me use the necrotic cyst spells, aka Chekov's Spell.

Take Heighten spell. Seriously. Necrotic Cyst, the spell that the whole chain is based on, is only second level. Meaning low save DC. Meaning you need to make it a higher level to get use from it. It also helps get use from those lower-level, but still awesome, enchantments. Don't neglect leadership, though. Use it. First off, minions. Second off, get a bard cohort. Prestige him out into something cool, probably a virtuoso/Sublime Chord. Give him some songs like Doomspeak, Song of the Heart, refluffed Words of Creation, and another debuffing song, and a double harmonic/harmonic weapon. With it, he sustains two songs with his weapon (Song of (Dragon) fire and ice (cold fear?)), could cast 9th level spells, debuff with Doomspeak, virtuoso shenanigans, or timestop to do all of this at once. Plus, he can use Glibness. 'Nuff said there. Top this all off with the fact that this character has shapechange powers, and mindscrew of his own, any time the party meets the bard, they have to fear the fact that it might, in fact, be one of the clones that have (granted, less powerful) BC/buff/debuff/mindscrew after they've gone to the brainwash/training camp the bard set up.

[Drakevarg]

Mkay, I'll drop Planar Familiar for Heighten Spell (don't really need a Pseudonatural Quasit familiar).

And sure, I'll give him a Bardic mindslave. Considering that Mendax is probably going to be around for a looong time (the party is Level 3), I have no issues with handing him any neat idea that pops into our collective heads.

(Actually going to bed for reals this time, honest.)

[Zonugal]

From the sounds of it I might offer up some advice in form of inspiration. When crafting a legendary villain it helps to provide them with a sympathetic motivation (it doesn't mean they have to be nice people) that the players could at least understand if they were coming from his perspective. This not only helps mold the opinions of the players regarding such a npc but also will end up giving the villain a solid pathway to build off organically within the narrative.

But what I am really trying to get at is you should take a whole slew of lessons from my main man, Scorpius.

http://sharetv.org/images/farscape/cast/large/scorpius.jpg
"I long ago learned the advantages of patience."

[Drakevarg]

From the sounds of it I might offer up some advice in form of inspiration. When crafting a legendary villain it helps to provide them with a sympathetic motivation (it doesn't mean they have to be nice people) that the players could at least understand if they were coming from his perspective. This not only helps mold the opinions of the players regarding such a npc but also will end up giving the villain a solid pathway to build off organically within the narrative.

Problem with that is that I already have an inspiration for this character; the primary RP character of one of the players, who is nothing short of a Card-Carrying Villain. Sympathetic motivation? Nope. He's just a sadistic nutcase who causes suffering BECAUSE HE CAN.

This may seem cliched, but it's really not. People are always trying to make their villains sympathetic these days. And some of mine will be. But not this guy. He's just good, old-fashioned PURE. EVIL.

(Sleep is nigh-impossible with birds chirping outside your window nonstop. Gonna try anyway, but I'll probably pop back in every half hour or so unless I actually lose consciousness by some miracle.)

[Edit]: Actually managed to fall asleep. Awesome.

[Superstar]

Hmmmm, you know lich is cliche. We know it too.

So how can we use that?

We're going to have to pull a Xanatos Gambit I think.

Manufacture some kind of item/goal that the villain can't accomplish himself.

Convince EVERYONE around you that you are really a lich.

Get a lich to take your place. Pose as a victim, captured, maybe a bounty hunter, or just someone who got slighted big time. DM Fiat a way to escape (I don't know enough ways on the top of my head nor with books :X) if he's found out.

The beauty of it is, your adventurers may or may not expect this, but it won't matter either way. Just a Red Herring.

Let's assume he (your villain) makes it all the way to the fake-lich. Take him down, accomplish use adventurers to accomplish goal. You've lost a whole castle, some of your most powerful minions, but your evil goals are officially furthered, and you can get back to causing massive sorrow suffering and agony.

Since he has multiple ways not to die, I'm assuming you DON'T want him to die. Sooooo

Xanatos Gambit? I think so.

[faceroll]

A neat idea, but I can't think of a way for a character to make effigies that convincing without running on DM Fiat.

Awaken Construct is a 9th level spell. The problem is getting them to have 9th level casting when they are awakened.


I can. But there's nothing creative about the abuse of omnipotence.

Isn't that how writers write books?

[Analytica]

Lords of Darkness has the Stasis Clone spell which is a better variant of Clone, used by Manshoon in the FR setting. You can have several versions of yourself in storage, one wakes up whenever another dies.

Mindrape from BOVD may be slightly better than Programmed Amnesia, though they are mostly the same.

With psionics (though you seem set on arcane magic for now - maybe through an item, in that case?) you can use mind seed, which makes the target become, in mind, build and non-physical stats, yourself as you were eight levels ago. There is also the astral seed power for returning from the dead, though stasis clone, again, is better.

Second the necrotic cysts, too. Perhaps make some cyst variants of the above spells? Say that you can reincarnate through any encysted victim if one body dies, or magic jar into any encysted victim?

There was an archvillain in a Swedish RPG that did this, who eventually wound up having multiple hive-minded clones going around causing trouble. Good times.

[Talbot]

Teflammar Shadowlord is pretty tough to kill, as long as he never picks a fight with the heroes in direct sunlight.

[Forbiddenwar]

This may seem cliched, but it's really not. People are always trying to make their villains sympathetic these days. And some of mine will be. But not this guy. He's just good, old-fashioned PURE. EVIL.


The problem with pure evil is that it is rarely frightening or memorable. This is because people are unable to contextualize or relate to Pure Evil, and the actions of a pure evil creature resemble a storm. Even Xykon has a human, relateable reason for his every action, most cases it's because he's bored.

Sympathetic characteristics gives you a chance to corrupt the party, divide the players, lead them to question their behavior and choices. But that might not be the game you're running.

[Drakevarg]

The problem with pure evil is that it is rarely frightening or memorable. This is because people are unable to contextualize or relate to Pure Evil, and the actions of a pure evil creature resemble a storm. Even Xykon has a human, relateable reason for his every action, most cases it's because he's bored.

I meant Pure Evil as in Xykon Pure Evil, not as in Elemental Evil. Mendax runs on motiveless malignity. He wants to cause hurt because he's a sadist. Why is he a sadist? To be honest he's never bothered to think about it. Maybe he woke up in a bad mood one day and just decided to roll with it. Doesn't matter.


Teflammar Shadowlord is pretty tough to kill, as long as he never picks a fight with the heroes in direct sunlight.

Lords of Darkness has the Stasis Clone spell which is a better variant of Clone, used by Manshoon in the FR setting. You can have several versions of yourself in storage, one wakes up whenever another dies.

Mindrape from BOVD may be slightly better than Programmed Amnesia, though they are mostly the same.

With psionics (though you seem set on arcane magic for now - maybe through an item, in that case?) you can use mind seed, which makes the target become, in mind, build and non-physical stats, yourself as you were eight levels ago. There is also the astral seed power for returning from the dead, though stasis clone, again, is better.

Awaken Construct is a 9th level spell. The problem is getting them to have 9th level casting when they are awakened.

Not in any of my books, so not available for use.

Besides, constructs are magic items so I can just make them intelligent for extra cost.


Isn't that how writers write books?

No. DM Fiat abuse would be akin to a writer solving every problem in his story via Deus Ex Machina. This is what is known as bad writing.

[Taelas]

Y'know, I have had the idea for *exactly this character* for a long time. :P It's almost eerie how close it is.

Though I should note that clone might not be the best idea -- you'd be giving up the strongest weapon the character has -- anonymity! If need be, clone some of your minions. ;)

[Drakevarg]

Though I should note that clone might not be the best idea -- you'd be giving up the strongest weapon the character has -- anonymity! If need be, clone some of your minions. ;)

Clone only triggers posthumously, so anonymity isn't a problem. Plus he's a Changling and can just give himself a new face.

Speaking of which, update on the prototype:

Mendax Umbraquis
CE Changling Sorcerer 4/Alienist 10/Effigy Master 5

HP 158
STR 14
DEX 16
CON 18
INT 18
WIS 16
CHA 20

Fort +11
Ref +10
Will +18

BAB +9/+4
Grapple +11

Skills
Bluff +20 (21 Ranks +5 CHA +2 Racial +2 Persuasive -10 Insane Certainty)
Know (Arcana) +25 (21 Ranks +4 INT)
Know (Planar) +14 (10 Ranks (cc) +4 INT)
Know (Religion) +6 (2 Ranks (cc) +4 INT)
Diplomacy +5 (10 Ranks (cc) +5 CHA -10 Insane Certainty)
Craft (Metal) +21 (17 Ranks +4 INT)
Spellcraft +25 (21 Ranks +4 INT)
UMD +7 (2 Ranks (cc) +5 CHA)

Feats
Craft Wondrous Item
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Augment Summoning
Heighten Spell
Persuasive
Mother Cyst
Explosive Spell
Energy Substitution (Electricity)
Energy Admixture

Spells Known
0- Detect Magic
Acid Splash
Arcane Mark
Message
Read Magic
Light
Dancing Lights
Ray of Frost
Detect Poison
1- Necrotic Awareness
Lesser Orb of Acid
Identify
Charm Person
Obscuring Mist
2- Necrotic Cyst
Necrotic Scrying
Detect Thought
Mirror Image
Scorching Ray
3- Suggestion
Explosive Runes
Fireball
Lightning Bolt
4- Necrotic Domination
Lesser Geas
Ice Storm
Blinding Radiance
5- Magic Jar
Dominate Person
Death Throes
Permenancy
6- Geas
Chain Lightning
Mass Suggestion
7- Necrotic Tumor
Greater Teleport
Simulacrum
8- Clone
Demand
9- Programmed Amnesia

-----

Might possibly drop the blasty spells and Alienist altogether. After all, what does he need a wide repertoire for? He can just mindrape someone else to do it for him. :smallamused: