Sorceror or Dread Necromancer?

[Malkav]

Just a thought...
Going for a ray of enfeeblement build.
My thoughts;
1st lvl-Spell Focus Necromancy
Human-Fell Weaken
Flaw 1-Death Frost Spell
Flaw 2-Reserves of Strength
3rd lvl-Flash Frost Spell(maybe, it works good with Reserves of Str)
6th lvl-Arcane Thesis-Ray of Enfeeblement

Any tweaks from the Playground?



Edit: I think Dread Necromancer might be a better fit! In which case tomb-tainted soul is a must.

[TroubleBrewing]

Edit: I think Dread Necromancer might be a better fit!

Ackbar'd. Sorcerer is always better.

[Malkav]

Ackbar'd. Sorcerer is always better.

I usually agree. But going Paladin of Tyranny 2/Sorcerer 18 or just straight DNecro 20 is a tough call.

[TroubleBrewing]

Eeeehhhhhh not really. DN has a weak, weak spell list.

[Malkav]

Eeeehhhhhh not really. DN has a weak, weak spell list.

True.

But the build would be geared towards Ray of Enfeeblement anyways. And later shift to Greater Ray of Enfeeblement. When self-healing for free with TTS and Charnel Touch plus d12's at 20th...I think it is even.

[TroubleBrewing]

Healing is unnecessary (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29), and an extra 4 hp/level is not worth sacrificing the Sorcerer's utility and sheer power for the DN's crappy spell list.

[Doc Roc]

Healing is unnecessary (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29), and an extra 4 hp/level is not worth sacrificing the Sorcerer's utility and sheer power for the DN's crappy spell list.

And fun, don't forget fun. As a dread necromancer you're going to spend your entire campaign getting treated like the Evil Guy. Help an orphan? Ulterior motives! Save a city? You wanted the graveyards! Kill a horde of vampires? Destroying the competition!


Do you want this to be your next year and a half?

[TroubleBrewing]

Help an orphan? Ulterior motives! Save a city? You wanted the graveyards! Kill a horde of vampires? Destroying the competition!


My RL group treats literally every character I make this way. Even my Paladins.

You make one character eat the body of a dead PC and instantly you're that guy forever. :smallsigh:

[Doc Roc]

My RL group treats literally every character I make this way. Even my Paladins.

You make one character eat the body of a dead PC and instantly you're that guy forever. :smallsigh:

I know what you mean. You crash the moon into a planet, and suddenly people are yelling about boiling seas every time you sit down to play.

[TroubleBrewing]

It only takes one really, really awful event.

Mine involves a quote we pass around at CoC games:

"There are few things more terrifying than a safety deposit box filled with gold coins and a single, loaded revolver with a note: 'Here. You'll need this.'"

[Doc Roc]

It only takes one really, really awful event.

Mine involves a quote we pass around at CoC games:

"There are few things more terrifying than a safety deposit box filled with gold coins and a single, loaded revolver with a note: 'Here. You'll need this.'"

A quote from one of my CoC Games:
"No thanks, I don't read anymore."

[Gullintanni]

A quote from one of my CoC Games:
"No thanks, I don't read anymore."

Sounds like someone found Explosive Runes in their box of Cheerios.

[Doc Roc]

Sounds like someone found Explosive Runes in their box of Cheerios.

It was more along the lines of finding a certain ancient manuscript stitched into the back of their cheerio box, but close enough!

[Malkav]

And fun, don't forget fun. As a dread necromancer you're going to spend your entire campaign getting treated like the Evil Guy. Help an orphan? Ulterior motives! Save a city? You wanted the graveyards! Kill a horde of vampires? Destroying the competition!


Do you want this to be your next year and a half?

Um, Yes. I could play a paladin and my usual party would assume I am secretly evil anyways.

[Silva Stormrage]

Um, Yes. I could play a paladin and my usual party would assume I am secretly evil anyways.

Better than mine. I get labeled that guy for having my villains in MY campaign be too evil >.>. Kinda sad.

[Divide by Zero]

The main reason to play a Dread Necromancer is to take advantage of their class features. That is to say, making lots and lots of undead (or a few really big ones). A sorcerer with a bunch of necromancy spells will do the debuff route a lot better.

[Malkav]

Better than mine. I get labeled that guy for having my villains in MY campaign be too evil >.>. Kinda sad.

Same. I had a necromancer that wasn't even the main villain and everyone was kinda sad when he started killing halflings and children.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Two problems with the feats you've picked:
1. Reserves of Strength requires Iron Will.
2. Flash Frost Spell will not be affected by Reserves of Strength, Flash Frost is based on the spell level and Reserves of Strength increases your caster level.

[Malkav]

Two problems with the feats you've picked:
1. Reserves of Strength requires Iron Will.
2. Flash Frost Spell will not be affected by Reserves of Strength, Flash Frost is based on the spell level and Reserves of Strength increases your caster level.

That's not a problem actually. Iron Will suck for sure. No argument there. The reason for reserves of strength is to increase caster level. Thus making RoE better.

[Abaddon87]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Furiou's issue with the build is that you dont list Iron Will on it. How do you plan on getting it with a full house of feats?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's not a problem actually. Iron Will suck for sure. No argument there. The reason for reserves of strength is to increase caster level. Thus making RoE better.


3rd lvl-Flash Frost Spell(maybe, it works good with Reserves of Str)

I was pointing out that Reserves of Strength doesn't change the effect of Flash Frost Spell. Regardless of what your caster level is, Flash Frost will only add +2 damage to a Ray of Enfeeblement.

[Darth Stabber]

Ray of enfeeblement is a great spell, but I really don't see it as a thesis candidate. And at level 6 you are just a short 2 lvls wait from a spell you actually want to thesis, Enervation.

And DN is not for focused debuffers, it is decent at it, but the spell list is too short and limited. Ultimately the class is all about the undead hordes, except at low levels where it's a surprisingly effective melee'r. You probably want to be a sorcerer, unless you want to be a horde master.

[TroubleBrewing]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Furiou's issue with the build is that you dont list Iron Will on it. How do you plan on getting it with a full house of feats?

Otyugh Hole. 2,000 gp, I believe. CS.

Sorc is the better option here. DN makes for a good undead master, but Sorc can spam Enervation all day long.

[Abaddon87]

I've never understood why that Otyugh Hole is seen as a free way to get Iron Will. Isnt it some well in a jail that the really bad guys get thrown down? Do you just work that into your character story? And the bigger question, your DM allows it? I know its 2000 gp so its not "free", but if my player came to me wanting to pay to be thrown in jail for a week so he could get a free feat... I'd bee looking for the biggest book within reach!

[sreservoir]

I've never understood why that Otyugh Hole is seen as a free way to get Iron Will. Isnt it some well in a jail that the really bad guys get thrown down? Do you just work that into your character story? And the bigger question, your DM allows it? I know its 2000 gp so its not "free", but if my player came to me wanting to pay to be thrown in jail for a week so he could get a free feat... I'd bee looking for the biggest book within reach!

how hard can it be to get a necromancer in jail?

[Abaddon87]

Well if all they do to necromancers in your games is throw them in jail for a bit... then everyone would be one! Necromancy is usually a shunned art that merits lifetime jail or worse. Usually worse.

[TroubleBrewing]

Well if all they do to necromancers in your games is throw them in jail for a bit... then everyone would be one! Necromancy is usually a shunned art that merits lifetime jail or worse. Usually worse.

In your games, maybe. Everyone has a different, equally valid playstyle.

[Abaddon87]

Very true! I in no way, shape or form move to invalidate your games or anyones. I'm just stunned that Otyugh Hole is now an accepted way to get free feats. Please forgive my personal rant :smallredface:

[faceroll]

Depending on starting level and ending level, dread necromancer is more powerful. Use sanctum spell, versatile spell caster, easy metamagic and earth spell to cast 5th level spells from 1st level slots. Casting 4 levels higher than the competition is the tits. Just be mindful of your low caster level.


I've never understood why that Otyugh Hole is seen as a free way to get Iron Will. Isnt it some well in a jail that the really bad guys get thrown down? Do you just work that into your character story? And the bigger question, your DM allows it? I know its 2000 gp so its not "free", but if my player came to me wanting to pay to be thrown in jail for a week so he could get a free feat... I'd bee looking for the biggest book within reach!

I think it's a reference to the Black Hole of Calcutta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_of_Calcutta), and is part of the background of a character. It's like "yeah, this guy is so badass, he staid in the world's worst prison, and came back stronger for it." The GP price is there to allow GMs to calibrate what the value of that feat is in WBL. WBL, in later books, became more than just currency, but a quasi-meausure of non-character class derived power.

[TroubleBrewing]

Iron Will is a trash feat, though. It's mostly used as a prerequisite for other things, and if you can just pay for it instead of wasting a precious feat slot on it...

It helps mitigate some of the "feat taxes" WotC has in place.


Depending on starting level and ending level, dread necromancer is more powerful. Use sanctum spell, versatile spell caster, easy metamagic and earth spell to cast 5th level spells from 1st level slots. Casting 4 levels higher than the competition is the tits. Just be mindful of your low caster level.


So, four feats to just barely edge out the competition? Feats that the sorcerer in question can also have?

I don't think this counts as "more powerful".

[faceroll]

So, four feats to just barely edge out the competition? Feats that the sorcerer in question can also have?

I don't think this counts as "more powerful".

You make a level 6 sorcerer. I will make a level 6 dread necromancer. Let's see who can fight the most random encounters from the SRD monster filter. I can promise you that my 8th level spells will solve a lot more problems for me than your 3rd level spell.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm not getting into a pissing contest. My point was that those tricks can also be used equally well by a Sorcerer.

The OP's request was build suggestions for a debuffer. The Sorcerer is the better choice due to incredible versatility, not to mention the fact that the party will view him much less suspiciously.

[faceroll]

I'm not getting into a pissing contest. My point was that those tricks can also be used equally well by a Sorcerer.

No, they can't. A sorcerer cannot use those tricks. That is why I am suggesting DN, depending on starting level and ending level. It's not a pissing contetst. The best way to gauge power is to playtest. If you aren't going to submit your hypothetical build for scrutiny and testing, then your criticism isn't worth much, is it?


The OP's request was build suggestions for a debuffer. The Sorcerer is the better choice due to incredible versatility, not to mention the fact that the party will view him much less suspiciously.

Class is a metagame concept. Just get the DM to tell the players to stop metagaming. Also, let's look at what a level 4 DN has access to:
Bane
cause fear
doom,
ray of enfeeblement
Blindness/deafness
command undead
false life
ghoul touch
scare
Crushing despair,
ray of exhaustion
Animate dead
bestow curse
contagion
enervation
Evard’s black tentacles
fear
giant vermin
poison
summon undead I-V
cloudkill
insect plague
lesser planar binding
magic jar
waves of fatigue
Acid fog
eyebite
geas/quest
planar binding
waves of exhaustion

Note that, other than oodles of mediocre debuffs, he also some extremely potent and incredibly powerful stuff like cloudkill, black tentacles, planar binding and magic jar which can be used for all sorts of usefulness. You know, versatility.

What's a sorcerer got? Glitterdust? Web? And those aren't even appropriate to a debuffing necromancer.