Cleric Archer?

[Fisticuffs]

A player in my campaign said she'd like to play a divine caster/archer, I suggested just doing a cleric. Any domains that would help her be a good archer, any good Prestiges, or any other full divine caster that'd work better?

[dextercorvia]

It's a tough call between Archivist and Cleric. I'm going to promote the Archivist.

Elf and War domains are good, but Knowledge Devotion is great, and Archivist does it a bit better. They also get Dark Knowledge. Archivist gets access to the Ranger spells like Hunter's Eye.

A dip into Sacred Exorcist at ECL 8 will let her pick up DMM at 9.

[Eldariel]

A player in my campaign said she'd like to play a divine caster/archer, I suggested just doing a cleric. Any domains that would help her be a good archer, any good Prestiges, or any other full divine caster that'd work better?

Cleric's as good as it gets though it makes sense to enter some PrC depending on her deities and all that. Generally, the best Cleric Archers use Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell (Divine Metamagic in Complete Divine, Persistent Spell in Complete Arcane) to make few buffs last all day for them.

Obviously, you also want Rapid Shot and then you have options like Holy Warrior and Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] for buffing your damage output.


Obvious Domains far as benefits go:
- Elf (if she's an Elf; grants Point Blank Shot)
- War (if she's not an Elf and deity has Longbow as favored weapon)
- Planning (grants Extend Spell)
- Undeath (grants Extra Turnings)
- Spell (grants access to a bunch of Arcane spells)
- Knowledge (gains all Knowledges in class to invoke "Knowledge Devotion"-feat from Complete Champion)

EDIT: Archivist has some serious feat shortage when going archer, so I'd prefer Cleric. Archivist can work and indeed, is stronger if made work but you really need some flaws or something to get extra feats to pick even the basics up. Cloistered Cleric is basically 3 feats ahead of an Archivist from level 1 (the skills will be similar, with CC having 2 base more while Archivist is Int-based and thus has more from there. Also, Clerics get Turning on level 1 so Clerics are stronger in low level play.

[Malkav]

Zen Archery.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, I wanted to get into Arcane Archer (for a 2-level dip to acquire Imbue Arrow) from a divine spellcaster base, so I used (Mystic) Ranger as well as (Cloistered) Cleric. Build below:

Here's an archer build I came up with a while back, intended to get more archery-related feats in a mostly spellcasting build; it's got something for everybody. (Note: The cheesy bonus feat swap may be RAW legal, but I recommend it only if you want to antagonize your DM.)

Race: Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) (+2 DEX, +2 STR, -2 CON, -2 INT; Favored Class: Ranger). Alignment: within 1 step of Chaotic Good. You'll need to join the Order of the Shooting Star (see Champions of Valor). This build requires DEX 17 by the time you get to level 6 for Dead Eye, and DEX 19 later if you pick up Improved Precise Shot.


Cloistered Cleric 1 of Solonor Thelandira. Domains: Knowledge, War, Elf; gain Weapon Focus (longbow) and Point Blank Shot feats as granted powers. Level 1 feat: Precise Shot. Should pick up 1+ ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion).
Mystic Ranger 1 (Ranger variant in Dragon # 336, page 105). Gain wild empathy, Track feat. Should pick up 5 ranks in Survival.
Cloistered Cleric 2. Level 3 feat: Far Shot.
Cloistered Cleric 3.
Mystic Ranger 2. Take Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, page 32) to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists. Gain 3 more ranks in Survival to get 8 total ranks.
Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine, page 61) 1. Gain Travel as bonus domain; convert this to Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) feat. Level 6 feat: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95): add DEX bonus to arrow damage within 30'.
Mystic Ranger 3. Choose combat style: archery; this grants the Rapid Shot feat.
Mystic Ranger 4. Gain Endurance as a bonus feat.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 2. You'll now have BAB 6. Level 9 feat: Manyshot.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 3.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 4. Do the Dark Chaos Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I, pages 92 & 95) to swap Track and Endurance for

Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor, page 34): cast Wizard arcane spells in Ranger spell slots; and
Holy Warrior reserve feat (Complete Champion, page 60): add level of highest reserved War spell to weapon damage.
You'll now have Cleric 7 spellcasting, BAB 8, and can cast Ranger/Wizard spells at levels 0-2.
If you want to spread on the cheese sauce, this is where you would do the Dark Chaos Shuffle with the 4 Elf bonus feats
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. and pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Extra Turning; persist Divine Power to keep your BAB up all day.

At this point you qualify to enter Arcane Archer, or you can continue with Seeker of the Misty Isle for more Cleric spellcasting plus other benefits of that PrC.

With Divine Power you'll be at BAB 11.
You'll add (DEX mod +1) to attacks, and (with a composite longbow) (STR mod +4) to damage. (The +1 is from Weapon Focus; the +4 is from Holy Warrior.)
Within 30' you'll add an additional +1 to attacks, and (DEX mod + 1) to damage. (The +1 is from Point Blank Shot; the DEX mod is from Dead Eye.)
You'll have 10 useful feats (or 14 with the cheesy sauce added), without flaws. If at some point you think you've got enough skill ranks in the various Knowledges, you can convert Knowledge domain to Knowledge Devotion for bonuses to attack and damage against the corresponding creature types.

[dextercorvia]

Well, I wanted to get into Arcane Archer (for a 2-level dip to acquire Imbue Arrow) from a divine spellcaster base, so I used (Mystic) Ranger as well as (Cloistered) Cleric. Build below:

Here's an archer build I came up with a while back, intended to get more archery-related feats in a mostly spellcasting build; it's got something for everybody. (Note: The cheesy bonus feat swap may be RAW legal, but I recommend it only if you want to antagonize your DM.)

Race: Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) (+2 DEX, +2 STR, -2 CON, -2 INT; Favored Class: Ranger). Alignment: within 1 step of Chaotic Good. You'll need to join the Order of the Shooting Star (see Champions of Valor). This build requires DEX 17 by the time you get to level 6 for Dead Eye, and DEX 19 later if you pick up Improved Precise Shot.


Cloistered Cleric 1 of Solonor Thelandira. Domains: Knowledge, War, Elf; gain Weapon Focus (longbow) and Point Blank Shot feats as granted powers. Level 1 feat: Precise Shot. Should pick up 1+ ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion).
Mystic Ranger 1 (Ranger variant in Dragon # 336, page 105). Gain wild empathy, Track feat. Should pick up 5 ranks in Survival.
Cloistered Cleric 2. Level 3 feat: Far Shot.
Cloistered Cleric 3.
Mystic Ranger 2. Take Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, page 32) to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists. Gain 3 more ranks in Survival to get 8 total ranks.
Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine, page 61) 1. Gain Travel as bonus domain; convert this to Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) feat. Level 6 feat: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95): add DEX bonus to arrow damage within 30'.
Mystic Ranger 3. Choose combat style: archery; this grants the Rapid Shot feat.
Mystic Ranger 4. Gain Endurance as a bonus feat.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 2. You'll now have BAB 6. Level 9 feat: Manyshot.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 3.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 4. Do the Dark Chaos Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I, pages 92 & 95) to swap Track and Endurance for

Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor, page 34): cast Wizard arcane spells in Ranger spell slots; and
Holy Warrior reserve feat (Complete Champion, page 60): add level of highest reserved War spell to weapon damage.
You'll now have Cleric 7 spellcasting, BAB 8, and can cast Ranger/Wizard spells at levels 0-2.
If you want to spread on the cheese sauce, this is where you would do the Dark Chaos Shuffle with the 4 Elf bonus feats and pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Extra Turning; persist Divine Power to keep your BAB up all day.

At this point you qualify to enter Arcane Archer, or you can continue with Seeker of the Misty Isle for more Cleric spellcasting plus other benefits of that PrC.

With Divine Power you'll be at BAB 11.
You'll add (DEX mod +1) to attacks, and (with a composite longbow) (STR mod +4) to damage. (The +1 is from Weapon Focus; the +4 is from Holy Warrior.)
Within 30' you'll add an additional +1 to attacks, and (DEX mod + 1) to damage. (The +1 is from Point Blank Shot; the DEX mod is from Dead Eye.)
You'll have 10 useful feats (or 14 with the cheesy sauce added), without flaws. If at some point you think you've got enough skill ranks in the various Knowledges, you can convert Knowledge domain to Knowledge Devotion for bonuses to attack and damage against the corresponding creature types.


So you read SotAO as granting those spells as Arcane? I've never been clear one way or the other.

[Curmudgeon]

So you read SotAO as granting those spells as Arcane? I've never been clear one way or the other.

Members of your military order have a special connection with arcane magic. ...
Benefit: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare Wizard spells.

Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Since the word "arcane" is both in the name of the feat and its description, and Wizard spells are by default arcane, I'd need a specific statement otherwise to think those spells are anything but arcane.

[dextercorvia]

What is your take on spells prepared with Anyspell?

[Curmudgeon]

Although there is no visible effect from this spellcasting, you channel divine power through your mind, shaping and transforming this energy into the potential to cast one arcane spell.

Anyspell allows you to read and prepare any arcane spell of up to 2nd level.

Once you choose and prepare an arcane spell, you retain it in your mind. It's an arcane spell; it says so repeatedly in the Anyspell description.

[dextercorvia]

Then wouldn't a Cleric with the spell domain be a stronger choice for the Arcane Archer dip? You'll miss out on a few of the feats, but have four more levels of spellcasting.

Edit: Thanks, for that answer. I had always thought so, but it's nice to get some confirmation from the RAWbitrator.

[Curmudgeon]

Then wouldn't a Cleric with the spell domain be a stronger choice for the Arcane Archer dip? You'll miss out on a few of the feats, but have four more levels of spellcasting.
No, I don't think so.
Spells: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells. Anyspell only gives you a single arcane spell. Since Arcane Archer doesn't say "at least one 1st-level spell", but instead uses the plural, you would need to wait until you had Greater Anyspell as well (using both of these to prepare 1st-level arcane spells) to qualify for the PrC. You won't get into Arcane Archer any earlier (after 11 levels of Cleric spellcasting with Spell domain), and that would make you a good spellcaster, but an ineffective archer.

Archery is much too feat-intensive for straight Cleric (5 feats including 1 from a domain) to work well. And that's very likely nothing but Cleric levels; without the Ranger dip you wouldn't qualify for Seeker of the Misty Isle until after Cleric 13. My build gives twice as many feats at level 11, so your "missing out on a few of the feats" characterization of the straight Cleric approach woefully under-represents that lack.

As an archer it's also very helpful to have access to a bunch of Ranger spells like Hunter’s Eye; you're not going to get that with the Spell domain. Missing out on 4 levels of Cleric spellcasting isn't the same as missing out on 4 levels of spellcasting. Every one of those 11 levels in my build gives you more spells.

[Dr.Epic]

A player in my campaign said she'd like to play a divine caster/archer, I suggested just doing a cleric. Any domains that would help her be a good archer, any good Prestiges, or any other full divine caster that'd work better?

Because there aren't any classes that excel at ranger combat and le you cast divine spells. *cough* ranger *cough*

Seriously, I'm sure you could find a combat based PrC that'll allow you to be a good archer. I'm sure there's a few in Complete Divine or Complete Warrior. Also, Zen Archery is not a bad feat as it let's you add your wis to ranged attacks.

[Elric VIII]

No, I don't think so. Anyspell only gives you a single arcane spell. Since Arcane Archer doesn't say "at least one 1st-level spell", but instead uses the plural, you would need to wait until you had Greater Anyspell as well (using both of these to prepare 1st-level arcane spells) to qualify for the PrC. You won't get into Arcane Archer any earlier (after 11 levels of Cleric spellcasting with Spell domain), and that would make you a good spellcaster, but an ineffective archer.

For this specific problem, why couldn't you just prepare Anyspell in your 3rd and 4th level domain slots?

Or even the Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF from PHBII would work.

[Stallion]

Zen Archery and a single level dip into Shiba Protector. Either as a cleric or a Soulbow.

Second one isn't divine, I know, but you could easily combo it with Paladin via the Serenity feat and say your mind is god-blessed, etc.

[Curmudgeon]

For this specific problem, why couldn't you just prepare Anyspell in your 3rd and 4th level domain slots?
Because Anyspell itself isn't an arcane spell, and you don't have any option to prepare more than one arcane spell at a time until you also have Greater Anyspell.
The prepared spell occupies your 3rd-level domain spell slot. Spending another 15 minutes to cast Anyspell a second time would wipe out the first arcane spell you prepared, leaving you with still just one arcane spell.

[dextercorvia]

No, I don't think so. Anyspell only gives you a single arcane spell. Since Arcane Archer doesn't say "at least one 1st-level spell", but instead uses the plural, you would need to wait until you had Greater Anyspell as well (using both of these to prepare 1st-level arcane spells) to qualify for the PrC. You won't get into Arcane Archer any earlier (after 11 levels of Cleric spellcasting with Spell domain), and that would make you a good spellcaster, but an ineffective archer.

Archery is much too feat-intensive for straight Cleric (5 feats including 1 from a domain) to work well. And that's very likely nothing but Cleric levels; without the Ranger dip you wouldn't qualify for Seeker of the Misty Isle until after Cleric 13. My build gives twice as many feats at level 11, so your "missing out on a few of the feats" characterization of the straight Cleric approach woefully under-represents that lack.

As an archer it's also very helpful to have access to a bunch of Ranger spells like Hunter’s Eye; you're not going to get that with the Spell domain. Missing out on 4 levels of Cleric spellcasting isn't the same as missing out on 4 levels of spellcasting. Every one of those 11 levels in my build gives you more spells.

I forgot about your pluralization penchant. Would having the Spontaneous Domain ACF work by your reading? You wouldn't have more than one 1st level arcane spell prepared at a time, but you could prepare and cast several in a day.

BAB would still hang you up on getting to Arcane Archer, and you'd be missing out on the War domain and some of its goodies. I'm not trying to knock your build, its not often I get to ask the why/what if question when it comes to optimization.

[Eldariel]

There's no question that a straight Cleric is stronger as an archer; however Curmudgeon's build is perfectly reasonable for a game where the character doesn't need to be a divine caster, and one doesn't need to maximize the numbers.

[Elric VIII]

Because Anyspell itself isn't an arcane spell, and you don't have any option to prepare more than one arcane spell at a time until you also have Greater Anyspell. Spending another 15 minutes to cast Anyspell a second time would wipe out the first arcane spell you prepared, leaving you with still just one arcane spell.

Ok, I guess I missed the part about the domain slot.

But, what if you cast the first prepared spell, then recast anyspell. You would have the ability to cast multiple arcane spells/day.

[dextercorvia]

Ok, I guess I missed the part about the domain slot.

But, what if you cast the first prepared spell, then recast anyspell. You would have the ability to cast multiple arcane spells/day.

I'm fairly certain that Curmudgeon's view of prereqs like this is that you have to have the capability of casting more than one 1st level spell at the moment you level up.

[Curmudgeon]

I forgot about your pluralization penchant. Would having the Spontaneous Domain ACF work by your reading? You wouldn't have more than one 1st level arcane spell prepared at a time, but you could prepare and cast several in a day.
No, this is not substantially different (just quicker) than attempting to claim qualification for the following PrC with one spell cast on each of 5 successive days.
Spells: Able to cast at least five spells with the force descriptor, at least one of which must be 5th level or higher.
Spells: Able to cast five abjuration spells, including at least two of 4th level or higher. There's no time period specified here, just a total number of spells. But to my mind if you can't cast the required number of spells back-to-back(-to back...) you don't meet the entry requirement. What's the point of specifying a minimum number of spells if you can then skirt that requirement and qualify in piecemeal fashion with a single spell?

[Elric VIII]

No, this is not substantially different (just quicker) than attempting to claim qualification for the following PrC with one spell cast on each of 5 successive days. There's no time period specified here, just a total number of spells. But to my mind if you can't cast the required number of spells back-to-back(-to back...) you don't meet the entry requirement. What's the point of specifying a minimum number of spells if you can then skirt that requirement and qualify in piecemeal fashion with a single spell?

That makes sense, although those two examples imply different spells. But maybe the wording "able to cast x level spells" is along the lines of "a pair of pants," in that there is only one of them.

I see the point you're trying to make, now I'm just playing devil's advocate.

[Curmudgeon]

That makes sense, although those two examples imply different. But maybe the wording "able to cast x level spells" is along the lines of "a pair of pants," in that there is only one of them.

I see the point you're trying to make, now I'm just playing devil's advocate.
Not when there are PrC entry requirements using "able to cast at least one spell ..."; that makes it clear they're aware of the difference between one and plural (more than one).

[Elric VIII]

Not when there are PrC entry requirements using "able to cast at least one spell ..."; that makes it clear they're aware of the difference between one and plural (more than one).

Do both phrasings appear in the same book?

[Curmudgeon]

Do both phrasings appear in the same book?
Sure. Just from the first book I picked up, Complete Arcane:

Spells: Able to cast at least one summoning spell of 3rd level or higher.
Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.

[stainboy]

The example character for the Hospitaler PrC in Complete Divine is a Paladin 5 / Hospitaler 2 with a 12 wisdom. She can cast exactly 1 paladin spell per day. Hospitaler requires that you be able to cast 1st level divine spells.

More examples in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-185214.html

The interpretation that one spell per day is not "spells" is nonsensical. Two days ago I took my fourth level of paladin. Yesterday I cast one spell. Today I wake up, pray, and cast another spell. I have now cast spells.

[holywhippet]

Well, I wanted to get into Arcane Archer (for a 2-level dip to acquire Imbue Arrow) from a divine spellcaster base, so I used (Mystic) Ranger as well as (Cloistered) Cleric. Build below:


Exactly how useful is it to be able to do that? It gives certain spells the ability to be cast at greater range, but how often would you actually want to do this. Also, it only works on area of effect spells, so you can't drop a cure critical wounds on an ally by shooting an arrow at them.

[Fisticuffs]

What book is Shiba Protector in?

[Elric VIII]

Sure. Just from the first book I picked up, Complete Arcane:

Well, that puts that issue to rest. However, the fact that it does not specify a timeframe is still an issue, as stainboy points out. I think this becomes the domain of ambiguous RAW.


What book is Shiba Protector in?

Oriental Adventures, page 222.

[Forged Fury]

Well, that puts that issue to rest. However, the fact that it does not specify a timeframe is still an issue, as stainboy points out. I think this becomes the domain of ambiguous RAW.
The argument would be a lot more persuasive if Alienist simply said "Able to cast at least one 3rd level spell or higher." The fact that Alienist is specifying that you can cast a certain level spell from a certain subschool makes the argument less than persuasive to me.

If someone can find a prerequisite that states" Able to cast at least one X level spell or higher" without additional criteria, I'm sold.

[Cog]

The example character for the Hospitaler PrC in Complete Divine is a Paladin 5 / Hospitaler 2 with a 12 wisdom. She can cast exactly 1 paladin spell per day. Hospitaler requires that you be able to cast 1st level divine spells.
And WotC has always been so consistently rules-legal with their sample characters. :smallmad:

[Curmudgeon]

The argument would be a lot more persuasive if Alienist simply said "Able to cast at least one 3rd level spell or higher." The fact that Alienist is specifying that you can cast a certain level spell from a certain subschool makes the argument less than persuasive to me.
Alienist requires a subschool, but has no type requirement. Sublime Chord doesn't require a subschool but has a type requirement. Both specify a spell level requirement. Each of these prestige classes has specifics for their spell requirement in addition to the number; that's the most common case for PrC entry requirements. I don't see how that has any bearing on the issue of the number of spells.

[candycorn]

I think Curmudgeon's interpretation that "able to cast XX spells" meaning "able to consecutively, without delay, cast multiple spells of XX type" isn't precisely RAW.

Generally, I default to: "able to cast multiple spells of XX type, within one memorization cycle"... at the absolute harshest interpretation. Most optimizers assume a more lax interpretation, as they allow Precocious Apprentice to qualify for "able to cast 2nd level spells" PrC's.

Therefore, if I can memorize spells, and before resting and memorizing again, cast multiple spells of XX type, I can cast multiple spells of XX type. That they're not directly consecutive is irrelevant. The rules do not call for the ability to cast arcane spells in direct succession.

If it's really a problem though, a caster could always craft a contingent Anyspell, with a trigger of "I complete the casting of an arcane spell".

As soon as the spell is cast, a new anyspell refills the slot, allowing for immediate casting of the next spell.

A lot of Curmudgeon's view on legality revolves around personal opinion on the interpretation of 'the ability to cast XX spells'.

[Incanur]

Cleric archers aren't exactly difficult to build or play. At the most basic level, just grab Elf and War as domains and take Zen Archery. Then cast buffs and shoot things. When the times comes, take the Holy Warrior feat from Complete Champion and get an awesome force bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). No problems. Go for cloistered cleric and Divine Metamagic shenanigans if appropriate for the game, but that's not at all necessary.

[Curmudgeon]

If it's really a problem though, a caster could always craft a contingent Anyspell, with a trigger of "I complete the casting of an arcane spell".
You do realize that Contingency isn't on the Cleric spell list, and is at the same same level as Greater Anyspell, right? So this changes the solution to one that's even harder to achieve than Anyspell + Greater Anyspell.

A lot of Curmudgeon's view on legality revolves around personal opinion on the interpretation of 'the ability to cast XX spells'.
All of my opinions are (by definition) personal opinions. As for the grammatical basis of that opinion, I recommend any of the many variants of Warriner's English Grammar and Composition (http://www.amazon.com/Warriners-English-Grammar-Composition-Complete/dp/B000K8ETZE/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305646924&sr=1-7), which I used in high school. I could also show you my SAT results with an 800 on the English Literature exam (all about reading and interpreting various texts) to show that I did learn a few things in that regard.

[dextercorvia]

Would you allow a DMM Repeat Anyspell to qualify?

[Curmudgeon]

Would you allow a DMM Repeat Anyspell to qualify?
That's also not going to work. Divine Metamagic can only be applied to divine spells, per the Complete Divine Errata. The result of Anyspell is a prepared arcane spell, as stated in the spell description. If you instead cast Anyspell in immediate succession using Repeat Spell you'll just prepare an arcane spell in your 3rd level domain slot and then replace it with another arcane spell prepared in that same slot, without having any opportunity to cast the first prepared arcane spell.

[candycorn]

You do realize that Contingency isn't on the Cleric spell list, and is at the same same level as Greater Anyspell, right? So this changes the solution to one that's even harder to achieve than Anyspell + Greater Anyspell.

All of my opinions are (by definition) personal opinions. As for the grammatical basis of that opinion, I recommend any of the many variants of Warriner's English Grammar and Composition (http://www.amazon.com/Warriners-English-Grammar-Composition-Complete/dp/B000K8ETZE/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305646924&sr=1-7), which I used in high school. I could also show you my SAT results with an 800 on the English Literature exam (all about reading and interpreting various texts) to show that I did learn a few things in that regard.

All the literary experience in the world won't assist you in defining an undefined time frame in which to do something. The text doesn't define the time frame in which a character must be able to do the task of "cast arcane spells", which means that definition is up to a DM. Your opinion on what that duration should be, while perfectly valid, is only one of several possible interpretations, which are also perfectly valid. It also has nothing to do with literary interpretation.

Craft Contingent Spell is a feat. It allows you to craft a contingent spell. That isn't limited to cleric only. I didn't say "Cast a contingency spell". I said "craft a contingent spell". There's a bit of a grammatical difference there, to show that I was not referring to the Contingency spell, which I agree, is not on the cleric's spell list. I also do believe that since I didn't once reference it, that fact is about as relevant to this as the sale price on Orange Juice in Topeka, Kansas.


Alienist requires a subschool, but has no type requirement. Sublime Chord doesn't require a subschool but has a type requirement. Both specify a spell level requirement. Each of these prestige classes has specifics for their spell requirement in addition to the number; that's the most common case for PrC entry requirements. I don't see how that has any bearing on the issue of the number of spells.
It seems to me that Alienist is referring to a distinct spell. Example: Summon Monster 3 and Heightened Summon Swarm. The other term doesn't seem to reference distinct spells, but rather the ability to cast multiple spells, regardless of whether they are the same or not.

In other words, casting Summon Monster 3 twice would qualify for "Able to cast 3rd level arcane spells." Under some interpretations, the ability to cast it once daily would. But that's all a matter of interpretation and opinion.

The safe bet is, "Check with your DM", since your DM will be the one that has to interpret the prerequisites.

[Curmudgeon]

Craft Contingent Spell is a feat.
Yes, I know it's a feat. Apparently I owe you an apology for assuming you were referring to something else that made more sense. After all, Craft Contingent Spell can only be taken after attaining 11th caster level, and in addition to costing a feat you'd also have XP and gp costs. Whereas Contingency is at least available to Clerics directly via the Kobold and Time domains, and indirectly by scroll via the Magic domain. So I thought you might be referring to something many Clerics can get easily at level 11, rather than something that's available after level 12, or maybe after level 9 with CL boosters (whatever they cost), plus the expenditure of a feat, gp, and XP ─ just to cast a second 1st level spell, once.

I do apologize for my misunderstanding.

[dextercorvia]

That's also not going to work. Divine Metamagic can only be applied to divine spells, per the Complete Divine Errata. The result of Anyspell is a prepared arcane spell, as stated in the spell description. If you instead cast Anyspell in immediate succession using Repeat Spell you'll just prepare an arcane spell in your 3rd level domain slot and then replace it with another arcane spell prepared in that same slot, without having any opportunity to cast the first prepared arcane spell.

I mean to apply the DMM Repeat to the Anyspell.

Step1: Cast DMM Repeat Anyspell --> Prepare Swift Fly
Step2: Cast Swift Fly

New Round Repeat activates, Anyspell goes off again, giving you another Swift Fly.

Step3: Cast Swift Fly

Edit: I want to say that I realize this isn't a good use of resources. I'm just feeling around for the edges of RAW per Curmudgeon at this point.

[candycorn]

Yes, I know it's a feat. Apparently I owe you an apology for assuming you were referring to something else that made more sense. After all, Craft Contingent Spell can only be taken after attaining 11th caster level, and in addition to costing a feat you'd also have XP and gp costs. Whereas Contingency is at least available to Clerics directly via the Kobold and Time domains, and indirectly by scroll via the Magic domain. So I thought you might be referring to something many Clerics can get easily at level 11, rather than something that's available after level 12, or maybe after level 9 with CL boosters (whatever they cost), plus the expenditure of a feat, gp, and XP ─ just to cast a second 1st level spell, once.

I do apologize for my misunderstanding.

It's also purchaseable. Hire someone to craft a contingent spell for you, easily within the WBL of a character before level 11, and you have the capacity to cast 2 spells consecutively.

It's not repeatable, but then, I don't see anything in that grammatical text to suggest that you need to be able to do it over and over again.

Of course, I don't see anything to suggest that they have to be immediately consecutive.

You are picking the option that makes the most sense to you, and trying to justify it as the only valid interpretation, based on literary experience.

In other words, you're passing off opinion as fact. Yes, your view is a reasonable interpretation. So is the ability to cast two arcane spells in a memorization cycle. So is the ability to cast two arcane spells in a week.

Since the time is undefined, it is up to the DM to determine the parameters under which the arcane spells must be able to be cast to qualify. You are not every DM, and you are not quoting direct RAW. You are quoting, "seems to me that this should be how it goes".

Now, cite some RAW source that "Ability to cast arcane spells" must only be interpreted as "Ability to cast multiple arcane spells in immediate succession, else violate the rules of D&D", and I will concede your point. Else, concede it is a matter of interpretation, and different time frames are legal within that interpretation, as defined by individual DMs.

[Curmudgeon]

I mean to apply the DMM Repeat to the Anyspell.

Step1: Cast DMM Repeat Anyspell --> Prepare Swift Fly
Step2: Cast Swift Fly

Benefit: A repeated spell is automatically cast again at the beginning of your turn in the following round.
Round 1: Start to cast Divine Metamagic (Repeat Spell): Anyspell to prepare Swift Fly. This takes 15 minutes to prepare the spell in your 3rd level domain slot.
Round 2: Another Anyspell automatically starts casting, taking 15 minutes to prepare the spell in the same domain slot.
...
Round 150: You finish casting the first Anyspell. However, the second Anyspell has been busy filling up the same domain slot with a different preparation of a spell, so there's nothing usable there.
Round 151: The second Anyspell finishes. It's a DM's call whether this has overwritten all attempts of the first Anyspell and successfully prepared an arcane spell in your 3rd level domain slot, or if the invalid simultaneous access results in an aborted, unusable result.

Edit: I want to say that I realize this isn't a good use of resources. I'm just feeling around for the edges of RAW per Curmudgeon at this point. I understand. I enjoy thinking through these things, too.


It's also purchaseable. Hire someone to craft a contingent spell for you, easily within the WBL of a character before level 11, and you have the capacity to cast 2 spells consecutively.
This gives you no additional spellcasting ability, any more than someone with a Glyph of Warding on their belt pouch has the capability to cast the stored harmful spell. In both cases the character/object is just the trigger for the spell set in place by some actual spellcaster.

No, you can't have some other spellcaster satisfy your prestige class entry requirements, either directly or indirectly; that's a sure way to fail your entrance exam. :smallamused:

[candycorn]

Let me phrase my question to you in a different way, Curmudgeon.

Say you are playing in a game. The DM in that game states, "For purposes of qualifying for prestige classes, feats, and such, 'ability to cast XX spells' may be fulfilled as long as you are capable of casting at least 2 spells of XX type within a single memorization of your spells".

Would any rule be in conflict with that DM's interpretation?

EDIT: Also, "automatically cast again" infers that the spell was cast in the first place. Therefore, it would not trigger until the spell was successfully cast once.

After all, a spell cannot be cast again unless it has been cast before.

Also, spells have no effect until they are finished casting. The second Anyspell isn't doing ANYTHING until the casting is completed. Not a single thing. If it has a 15 minute cast time, and someone disrupts your concentration at 14 minutes, 9 rounds, that spell has done nothing. If it completes, the spell generates the effect that is listed in the spell description, but not until then.

Spells aren't "busy" doing anything until they are cast.

[Curmudgeon]

That would rule out all spontaneous spellcasters, who don't memorize any spells.

[candycorn]

That would rule out all spontaneous spellcasters, who don't memorize any spells.

Technically, neither do prepared casters. They prepare spells. Now, are you done nitpicking? Alter to "a single rest cycle" or "a single set of spells per day".... and stop evading the question.

[dextercorvia]

This is going to depend on what it means for the spell to be cast. In order to be cast again, the spell must have been cast once. The magic overview section makes a distinction between beginning casting, and completed casting. For the spell to be cast, and for the Repeat spell metamagic feat to have any effect, the casting of the spell has to be completed.

Also, Repeat Spell says that the spell is cast on the following round. That is start to finish, and overrides any casting time of the spell.

[Curmudgeon]

This is going to depend on what it means for the spell to be cast. In order to be cast again, the spell must have been cast once. The magic overview section makes a distinction between beginning casting, and completed casting. For the spell to be cast, and for the Repeat spell metamagic feat to have any effect, the casting of the spell has to be completed.
OK, that's a reasonable interpretation. Given that, the first casting takes 150 full rounds to complete.
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1-round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails. So you're casting continuously until just before the start of your turn in round 151.

Also, Repeat Spell says that the spell is cast on the following round. That is start to finish, and overrides any casting time of the spell.
I'm not so sure about that. But for sake of argument, let's assume that's true. Regardless, it's cast at the beginning of your turn in the following round (round 151). There's no intervening time between when you finish casting Anyspell and when the Repeat Spell version automatically starts, since your action in casting that first spell must be continuous and uninterrupted.

[candycorn]

OK, that's a reasonable interpretation. Given that, the first casting takes 150 full rounds to complete. So you're casting continuously until just before the start of your turn in round 151.

I'm not so sure about that. But for sake of argument, let's assume that's true. Regardless, it's cast at the beginning of your turn in the following round (round 151). There's no intervening time between when you finish casting Anyspell and when the Repeat Spell version automatically starts, since your action in casting that first spell must be continuous and uninterrupted.

An immediate action spell can be cast at any time, including between the completion of the first spell and the casting of the second.

[dextercorvia]

Ah, I see where you are coming from. Swift Fly won't work because I can't squeeze a swift action in between there. What about Feather Fall? Can feather fall be cast after Anyspell comes into effect, and before the beginning of my 151st turn?

[Curmudgeon]

An immediate action spell can be cast at any time, including between the completion of the first spell and the casting of the second.
Yes, an immediate spell can be cast at any time. However, there is no time between "just before the start of your turn in round 151" and "the start of your turn in round 151", so deciding to cast an immediate action spell will interrupt the casting of Anyspell. The immediate action spell will succeed, but Anyspell will fail.

[dextercorvia]

I don't see your reasoning. The first Anyspell is cast. The second casting is interrupted in the sense that Feather fall happens first, but Anyspell can't be disrupted by the caster taking an action. It is no longer dependent on him.

[candycorn]

Yes, an immediate spell can be cast at any time. However, there is no time between "just before the start of your turn in round 151" and "the start of your turn in round 151", so deciding to cast an immediate action spell will interrupt the casting of Anyspell. The immediate action spell will succeed, but Anyspell will fail.

No time? So "before your turn" and "the beginning of your turn" are simultaneous?

No. One is Before, one is During. I suggest referring to your grammatical texts for clarification on the temporal differences between the two.

[stainboy]

All of my opinions are (by definition) personal opinions. As for the grammatical basis of that opinion, I recommend any of the many variants of Warriner's English Grammar and Composition (http://www.amazon.com/Warriners-English-Grammar-Composition-Complete/dp/B000K8ETZE/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305646924&sr=1-7), which I used in high school. I could also show you my SAT results with an 800 on the English Literature exam (all about reading and interpreting various texts) to show that I did learn a few things in that regard.

You're welcome to use whatever interpretation you want, I'm not trying to change your mind. As long as it's acknowledged that your interpretation isn't exactly RAW and there are other valid interpretations, I'm happy.

As for why Alienist is worded the way it is: assume for a minute that "spells" just means theoretical spellcasting ability. It doesn't matter how many spells the character knows or how often he can cast them. If a wizard knows zero spells (his spellbook just got set on fire) he still has the ability to cast spells. (You don't have to agree that this is true. Just go with it for now.)

If Alienist had as a prereq "ability to cast summoning spells of 3rd level or higher," it would follow that any 5th level wizard not barred from Conjuration would qualify. The class wouldn't care how many actual summoning spells the alienist knows, just that the alienist has a spell slot that could theoretically hold Summon Monster III or whatever. The "at least one" language clarifies that Alienist does care about the number of spells known. The wizard actually has to learn Summon Monster III to qualify.

[Forged Fury]

If Alienist had as a prereq "ability to cast summoning spells of 3rd level or higher," it would follow that any 5th level wizard not barred from Transmutation would qualify.
I figure I'll point this out before someone tries to snipe at the above as somehow invalidating the argument, but I'm going to guess you meant Conjuration?

Pretty much, you're argument is what I am saying. Based on the strict plural reading of "spells", a Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 couldn't enter Mystic Theurge since they can only cast one arcance and one divine spell of 2nd level. I've yet to see a game where that is the interpretation. Then again, I've yet to see a game where any form of Sneak Attack doesn't stack with any other form of Sneak Attack, with or without stacking language, particularly since it makes several PRCs pretty much useless.

[Curmudgeon]

No time? So "before your turn" and "the beginning of your turn" are simultaneous?
You're misquoting me in two ways; "just before the beginning of your turn" (not any unspecified interval before the beginning of your turn) and "the beginning of your turn" are continuous (not simultaneous). That means there is no interruption in time between them. An immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but "a very small amount" is more than none.

[candycorn]

You're misquoting me in two ways; "just before the beginning of your turn" (not any unspecified interval before the beginning of your turn) and "the beginning of your turn" are continuous (not simultaneous). That means there is no interruption in time between them. An immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but "a very small amount" is more than none.

Whether it's a billionth of a second before your turn, or 3 days before your turn... it is before your turn.

If it is at the beginning of your turn, it is during your turn.

This means that one happens, then the other does. That is sequential, not continuous. Something that is continuous is like... a horse pulling a wagon. It doesn't stop, therefore is is continuously moving.

By RAW, Immediate actions can be taken at any time.
However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time

Between these two actions, there may be a practically nonexistent amount of time, but there is an amount of time. If there were not, they would be simultaneous, not sequential.

Since there is an amount of time, then "between these two effects" is a time (as is, "when I finish casting Anyspell" and "when I gain Feather Fall as an Arcane Spell" and "when I am not casting a spell"). Since Immediate actions can be taken at any time, it is a valid choice on when to take an immediate action.

In other words, not only is "there is no time between these effects" your opinion (and not RAW), it's also bad logic.

[stainboy]

I figure I'll point this out before someone tries to snipe at the above as somehow invalidating the argument, but I'm going to guess you meant Conjuration?

Yep, stupid typo. Edited.

[Fineous Orlon]

I figure I'll point this out before someone tries to snipe at the above as somehow invalidating the argument, but I'm going to guess you meant Conjuration?

Pretty much, you're argument is what I am saying. Based on the strict plural reading of "spells", a Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 couldn't enter Mystic Theurge since they can only cast one arcance and one divine spell of 2nd level.



I figure I'll point this out before someone tries to snipe at the above as somehow invalidating the argument, but I'm going to guess you meant...

... that based on the strict plural reading of "spells,"

... that a wizard 3 does not necessarily have the ability score to cast more than 1 arcane 2nd level spell a day, while a Cleric 3 that can cast 2nd level spells can cast 2 2nd level divine spells, so a Wiz3/ Cleric3 might have a problem getting into Mystic Theurge from his wizard side. :tongue: